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Title: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by zmattmanz on Jul 20th, 2006, 1:37am I'm apparently starting this this week, anyone ever heard of it? http://www.integrativetherapies.net/ They are a place here in Greensboro, NC. AMD |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by ShaneM on Jul 20th, 2006, 6:51am I googled for it and found an article by a doctor at U Mich that did developmental studies on CST. It sounds interesting enough... Are they having you stop using preventatives before beginning therapy (assuming you are on some)? And is it expensive? Does insurance over it? Keep us informed. Shane |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by floridian on Jul 20th, 2006, 3:38pm It's regulated as a form of massage or physical therapy. Haven't tried it, don't know if any one here has for clusters. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by seasonalboomer on Jul 20th, 2006, 4:12pm on 07/20/06 at 01:37:58, zmattmanz wrote:
Are you actually doing this for CH, or for something else? I'm kind of a jerk when it comes to this stuff and rarely can just sit and let a thread go by with a "good luck, hope it works for you". Read this: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cranial.html Quackwatch has no axes to grind so I believe most of what I find there when it comes to this kind of stuff. Sorry. Scott |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by jenrob2006 on Jul 20th, 2006, 5:09pm I had a massage therapist who wanted me to do it, but said that there are a limited amount of therapists who know how to do it right and she was not one of them. I never looked any further. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by Berbank on Jul 20th, 2006, 9:48pm Quack! Quack! :D |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by floridian on Jul 21st, 2006, 12:43pm on 07/20/06 at 16:12:37, seasonalboomer wrote:
Have to disagree with you on that, Scott. Quackwatch sometimes puts out good stuff, sometimes not. They have launched some bizzare lawsuits that were laughed out of court. Quackwatch is the product of one person, a Dr. Barrett: Quote:
I can tell you that Quackwatch's read on Traditional Chinese Medicine is 20% standard precautions, 10% decent analysis, and 70% ignorant caricature. If everyone here followed the Quackwatch orthodoxy, kudzu would have never been tried for clusters. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by seasonalboomer on Jul 21st, 2006, 1:20pm on 07/21/06 at 12:43:29, floridian wrote:
Can't find a single reference to Kudzu on Quackwatch through their search engine. As far as Quackwatches percentages of being on target I tend to view their input to the conversation with more veracity than I do the chiropractic community that seem to come up with new revenue streams from developing great treatments like this Cranial Sacral Therapy. I read about this on the sites that were supposedly positive about it and all I could come up with as a response was, "what a crock." Here's from the College Of Cranial Sacral Therapy": "Cranio-Sacral Therapy involves a very gentle touch of the practitioners hands, both for diagnosis and for treatment. This light contact may be taken up on the cranium, the sacrum or any other part of the body as appropriate. Through this light touch the practitioner is able to pick up subtle patterns of motion within the body - rhythms, pulls, pulsations - emanating from deep within the core structures of the body. These movements are a reflection of Cranio-Sacral motion which is expressed in all tissues throughout the body. Every condition affecting a person influences this movement, creating asymmetries or restrictions to Cranio-Sacral motion. The Cranio-Sacral Therapist can therefore diagnose every condition through the corresponding patterns of resistance within the Cranio-Sacral system. By responding appropriately to these patterns - in other words by gently allowing the subtle movements deep within the body to unwind themselves - the Cranio-Sacral Therapist can enable and facilitate the release of Cranio-Sacral restrictions. Release at these profound regulatory levels in turn enables the release of disease conditions throughout the body." And then more, here's a list of what Cranial Sacral THerapy can help: "Cranio-Sacral Therapy is also particularly valuable in solving and resolving difficult and persistent conditions. The following are just a few examples of the many conditions that might benefit from Cranio-Sacral treatment: Headache, Migraine, Period Pains. Asthma, Sinusitis, Bronchitis, Cystitis. Frozen Shoulder, Arthritis, Sciatica, Chronic/c Sprained Ankle, Joint Disorders, RSI. Digestive Problems, Whiplash Injuries, Spinal Curvatures. Back Pain, Neck Pain, Persistent pain anywhere in the body. Tension, Anxiety, Insomnia, Visual Disturbances. Lack of Energy. Problems during and after Pregnancy, Depression, Post-Operative Effects, Adhesions. Baby Care, Colic, Pyloric Stenosis, Feeding Difficulties. Ear Infections, Glue Ear, Tonsillitis, ENT Problems. Compression of the skull due to a difficult birth, with its many after effects. Learning Difficulties, Dyslexia, Squint, Lazy Eye. Hyperactivity, Autism, Epilepsy, Cerebral Palsy. Behavioural Disorders, Tantrums, Obsessional Behaviour. Dental and TMJ Problems. Head Injuries, and their subtle influence on personality and mental state. Meningitis and its chronic consequences. Post Viral Syndrome, ME, Glandular Fever, Fatigue. The after effects of any chronic illness or debilitating disease." I'll buy the fact that Quackwatch may not be right on everything. But I think they're right on in this case. Scott |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by floridian on Jul 21st, 2006, 1:32pm on 07/21/06 at 13:20:35, seasonalboomer wrote:
They don't mention kudzu specifically, but conceptually it falls under their article "Be wary of Acupuncture, Qigong and "Chinese Medicine" which has a link on their index page. I'm no expert on cranialism, but my understanding of it is as a form of massage or physical therapy - I'm guessing that it might be an adjunct or supportive therapy for CH, (like massage, chiro, etc) but I am some what sceptical that it would do wonders. But I don't know that much about it. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by seasonalboomer on Jul 21st, 2006, 1:39pm on 07/21/06 at 13:32:47, floridian wrote:
Jonathan, if that's as strong a statement as you're going to make...I'll take it. :) Scott (next chapter: using bleeding as a treatment measure) |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by floridian on Jul 21st, 2006, 1:54pm Yeah, that's as far as I'll go. On that. ;) Quackwatch also hates osteopaths, and many cranial techniques are from osteopathy. I don't know much about that either, but about ten years ago, I heard the osteopaths have a technique for fixing a deviated septum. It involves inflating a balloon in the nose to push the septum back into place. A lot less traumatic than the standard procedure of breaking the nose with a hammer and then re-setting it. But there weren't any osteopaths near me, so I never pursued it. Guess what? Just a month ago I heard that mainstream doctors have discovered a 'new' procedure for fixing deviated septums using a balloon that is inflated in the nose!! Quote:
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by CranioSacral on Jul 21st, 2006, 2:09pm Hey Folks - I just found this forum yesterday. I've been suffering from CH's since I was 18 years old. I'm an episodic sufferer - they come on at the beginning of each Season - and the period during which I'm prone to CH's lasts from 1-2 months. I get 1-2 (sometimes 3) CH's a day which last 1 hour. My pain is *always* Kip Scale 10 after 6 days of "ramping up" to the full potential my CH's offer. Pain is *always* behind my right eye. I take no medication for my pain. I have, on occasion, taken aspirin - but that only helps when my headaches are "ramping" up. Oddly enough espresso, if consumed before the pain ramps up..aborts the CH's for the day. However, usually once I go to sleep..I will wake up in full panic/pain mode. 2 things: Acupuncture works very well for me. Approx. 5 years ago, I started acupuncture for stress-related health problems. Not much was happening with my headaches. Then, 3 years into receiving acupuncture weekly...a miracle happened. For the first time in my life, I went a year without a headache! Then, I had a few over the course of a few days...then, nothing again for another year! Oh my god, I'm sure you can imagine the relief/disbelief that something prevented them from occuring. My acupuncturist, who works at The Oregon College of Oriental Medicine in Portland, OR has told me, in short, that stress is the cause of my headaches....which causes a TCM (traditional Chinese Medicine) syndrome called "Liver Yang Rising." With his guidance, and through getting in touch with my body, I have come to strongly believe that stress is the true trigger of this bastard pain. FYI: These two points, used bilaterally (ie: on both sides of body at same time), when needled, or done with acupressure, can reduce/eliminate the pain if done before the pain ramps up. The points are LI4 (large intestine 4) & GB41 (gall bladder 41). OK, now to make things relevant. I practice CranioSacral Therapy as taught by the Upledger Foundation: www.upledger.com This is *not* quack science. Dr. John Upledger is an Osteopathician, as well as an acupuncturist & an MD. What he teaches is based upon observable, reproducable physiological phenomenon. Osteopathy has been around for a looong time, longer than MD's have been "legitimate" Dr's (which only occured in the 1950's). While I can't say that CranioSacral Therapy is *the* cure, or even a cure (since these things are so unique to everyone) - I can say that certain of the techniques used in CST may help relieve pain. Several days ago, for the first time in approx. 1 year (or more) I started getting The Beast again....The trigger was over 20 hours driving in 2 days time, in addition to the stress of leaving for a residential school in the next 30 days. Upon feeling the "ramping up" phase, I immediately scheduled acpuncture appointments. Thanks to them, the pain has only once been a Kip 10, the rest were 6 or 7 (a pleasant place to be compared to 10). However, I also began feeling "shadows" lasting all day. These shadows were quite annoying, about 3-4 or maybe 5 on the Kip scale. I taught my wife (a massage therapist) how to do a CST technique called "The Platform Release" - this technique removes tension between the Occiput (back of head) & the Atlas (first Cervical vertebrae). To my amazement, the shadows left and stay away for hours to days at a time. Repeated "platform releases" offer longer & longer relief of shadow pain. Further, no more headaches. CST is real science that works on the Cranial Nerves (in addition to the cranial bones along with cranial/spinal fluid) - which, after reading information on this site - I have learned are probable sources of pain. Don't poo-poo this stuff. It is powerful & life changing. The people I practice on love the therapy, and are eager to receive treatments from me. As far as we CH sufferers go, I think we should be open to anything that could possibly relieve the hell we endure. At the least, CST can dramatically reduce stress on a long-term basis (for me, it's more relaxing than massage)...and you all know how stressful the CH's can be! Good luck everyone! |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by CranioSacral on Jul 21st, 2006, 2:11pm on 07/21/06 at 13:54:02, floridian wrote:
I'd hate to say this, but the "balloon technique" is painful beyond painful. Exceedingly painful. However, it is highly recommended for the problems it can treat. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by seasonalboomer on Jul 21st, 2006, 2:20pm Hey there "CranioSacral" - welcome. What's your take on Cranial Sacral Therapy? |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by CranioSacral on Jul 21st, 2006, 3:45pm hey seasonalboomer, read the last few sentences of my overly long post. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by Charlotte on Jul 21st, 2006, 4:02pm Dear Cranial, did you name yourself after the post or was that just an interesting coincidence. I'm not being fresh - I really wonder. I think almost anything can help us, and at another time the same thing could hurt us. This is such a fickle beast. Charlotte |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by StressFree on Jul 21st, 2006, 4:07pm I don't know about the mysterious pressure points and the magical energy stuff in asian medicine, but massage is always great. As I posted in the "massage therapy" subject, my wife has been infinately patient during cluster cycles. With her massaging my temples, jaw, head and neck I've made it through many attacks that would have been KIP10+ otherwise. And as in many other posts - the TENS (electrical nerve stimulation) has helped me out tremendously. I'm surprised more haven't tried it and had success with it. For anyone at their wits end, it is certainly worth a try. Prayers for all, Rich |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by CranioSacral on Jul 21st, 2006, 5:36pm on 07/21/06 at 16:02:27, Charlotte wrote:
Well, I intended on being just a lurker...until I happened to see this thread about CST - which I know something about since I practice it. I know what you mean about how things can help us, then later hurt us. Strategies that have helped me cope during one cycle would only hurt the next cycle! However, I really feel that learning to get in touch with true relaxation is a very powerful, side-effect free defense/offense against the pain. I'd like to make a point about Chinese Medicine. Sure, it seems like "magic" & "mysterious" - yet, it is a science that has been around for over 5,000 years! Think about that for a moment. Western Medicine has *only* been legitimate & licensed since the 1950's here in the U.S.! In other words, the Chinese have been documenting the body & illness for 4,900 years longer than Western Dr's have. Further, many Western medications on the market today have "unknown" mechanism of action...Whereas, for each of the thousands of herbs in the Chinese pharmacopeia there is a thorough (and extremely well documented) understanding of their action on the body/mind/spirit. Which practice, therefore, is more "magical" & "mysterious"? I have to admit my bias right up front, my partner is an acupuncture student &, frankly, I attribute my life & my sanity to acupuncture offering me the first & only long term relief I've ever enjoyed from CH's. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by Charlotte on Jul 21st, 2006, 6:42pm I'm not sure where you got the mysthical & mysterious thing? Did I miss that in the thread? (OK. I see it was in the post right after mine.) I use liquid kudzu extract, but I think of it as an american product since it was manufactured in Illinois. I forgot to say, "Welcome aboard. Also, if you answered my question, I missed it. I'm not 100% today. Charlotte |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by seasonalboomer on Jul 24th, 2006, 9:19am on 07/21/06 at 14:09:29, CranioSacral wrote:
That's a specious legitimization. There's quite a bit about medical history that doesn't wear well on anyone if you look at the last 150 years. It doesn't mean Osteopathy was doing anything all that great in the late 1800's and early 1900's than those who were wrongly practicing medicine. There will always be room for legitimate medicine to learn more about the mysteries of the human body. And those mysteries seem to be packed awfully tightly into what's happening with DNA and RNA. I'll stick with the Hypothalamus right now and look forward to what the scientists and MD's are researching. There's logic and rationale for this approach. I'm openly critical of the Chiropractic and Eastern therapies. I didn't have a great experience, and that was with one my town's better respected providers. When these practicioners put out signs that trumpet their ability to rid the body of migraine and headaches, along with everything from anxiety to epilepsy, I think they're stepping into water a little too deep for their swimming ability. That's my opinion. You have yours. I'm glad you feel acupuncture helped. I've skipped cycles in the past also - and it was great and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what it was that might have led to the extended break. Beyond sunspots I pretty much arrived at simply viewing it as a break and I was glad to have it. So, like os many other things, good for you. Scott |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by rickyshot on Jul 24th, 2006, 3:21pm I go to chiropractic for sports injuries and sciatica. It is very helpful for these conditions. Alas for my Ch and migraines nothing has worked well. I also tried crainiotherapy and aside from being very relaxing, no relief. Since these modalities are very relaxing I can see if the trigger for the headaches are stress they may work. But unfortunately there are deeper physical problems in most people with CH and/or migraines. People have found out what we knew all along. Stress does not usually cause or trigger these things. These things are neurological events and definitely need more research. I also tried acupuncture and nothing. My conclusion . If you are having symptoms of CH from stress or misaligned spine, these things could help. If like most of us the CH is caused by a problem in our circadian rhythm and hypothalmus you have a horse of a different color. And there are too many people even in the alternative medicine field who play on the all natural thing and doctors are vultures and we are the only ones who care and who are in the know shit and just fleece folk out their money same way allopaths do. BTW my chiro who is also a kiniseologist said he did not think chiro could help my ch, migraines or thyroid problems. He tends to be honest and stick to what he knows. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by nani on Jul 24th, 2006, 6:51pm I've had accupuncture for CH, and it didn't help them at all. I've had CST in conjunction with massages, and it feels wonderful. I wasn't getting massages for CH, and not surprisingly, it didn't help with it at all. The massages and CST were still great. |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by zmattmanz on Jul 26th, 2006, 12:04am I start this Therapy this friday, in addition to regular soft tissue massages. The insurance company pays for it, it costs me literally $10, so even if it totally doesn't work, who gives a damn. ;;D It was explained to me today as a technique that would manipulate different fluids in my head, and that it was commonly used for headache patients. And warned me that generally they would see headaches get worse at first, and then begin to see a reduction of number and intensity. I'm 22, and I'm so open to everything, I'm young I'm strong anything other than drugs, that make you feel like crap (Imitrex), make you look like your dying (Oxygen), or make you gain weight, feel tired, and totally kill your ability to pleasure your girlfriend are all options in my book (Toprol XL). AMD |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by floridian on Jul 26th, 2006, 10:04am on 07/26/06 at 00:04:04, zmattmanz wrote:
LOL - you should get the Darth Vader Power Oxygen mask! Or the Neil Shephard Astronaut Hero Oxygen mask. Bet you would make people jealous if you wore an astronaut suit. Any other fashion/fantasy Oxygen masks that won't make you look "like you are dying" ?? |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by seasonalboomer on Jul 26th, 2006, 10:12am on 07/26/06 at 00:04:04, zmattmanz wrote:
Hope you feel as great about it as you watch insurance rates continue to rise..... |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by zmattmanz on Jul 26th, 2006, 3:44pm Isn't the point to find the most effective treatment for your specific case? Funny, the retail price on my 12 Shot Refill of Imitrex was $972.00 while outpatient cost for soft tissue is $45 dollars.. Perhaps slightly more cost effective, I really hope your not as negative to everyone in your life it's a poor way to live. ::) |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by seasonalboomer on Jul 26th, 2006, 4:01pm Hey Matt, Don't mean to be a "bummer" for you but I tend to view the attitude that people have toward health insurance and the idea that they aren't paying for it to be one of the several things that our healthcare system (that we are so intricately tied to) has going wrong. As for your feeling as though I'm being negative about your excitement over Cranial Sacral Therapy, I do apologize. As you see from several of the posts, there doesn't seem to be a lot of experience (anectdotal or otherwise) where CST has benefited folks with their CH. So, with regard to being "negative" about it as a CH therapy, I think some reasoned criticism should be expected if you are posting this on a Medications, Treatments and Therapies board at CH.com. Even the practitioner that posted, who has CH, did not say that it would clearly help CH. He said it is "life-changing" and some other stuff. I'm a delightful guy. I really am, and I live fine. But, I won't just sit and watch a conversation in this community where something like CST is brought up, with no anectdotal or statistical information and say, "wow, dude that's sounds really cool". As for being negative, especially from someone who has a concern that O2 makes them "look like they're dying", get over it. O2 continues to be one of the most effective and cost-effective, safe treatments, least side effects, we have in the toolbox. As for the bitches you have about treatments that seem to be pretty common -- some of those may be your own issues. So far I like Imitrex. It works for me and I feel better after I take it and can be a productive member of society after I use it. There's statistical evdience that it is effective for many, and anectodotal. Yes, there are side effects that everyone can be made aware of. Good luck with you CST, maybe you can say a couple of "UHHHHMMMM's" before you start it to purge all my negativity. Scott |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by Margi on Jul 26th, 2006, 4:19pm I gotta ask....why does O2 make you look like you're dying? Because it's traditionally used for breathing disorders in aging smokers? Is that what you mean? Sorry, but...who CARES what you look like if you can find something to end your cluster pain. I've done years of studying into alternative treatments, legal and illegal - naturopathy, homeopathy - anything I could lay my hands on that might someday cure my husband's pain. So far...not so good. However, a gal i grew up with is a Cranial Sacral Therapist and she did help my daughter get through a rather nasty bout of depression a few years back. Her (my friend) hands are horrible though - she absorbs all the bad energy from her patients and it makes the skin on her hands break out. It's quite gross really. :P I asked her if she thought she could do anything for my boy. She'd never heard of cluster so I gave her the quick and dirty on it - that is it believed to be a result of a whacky hypothalmus, extra growth there. She just shook her head and said 'sorry, CST isn't going to change an overgrowth of tissue - we just address chi and fluidity issues'. CH is what it is. Until we can find a way to fix the birth defected hippythingamajiggy...yeah, it's not going away anytime soon. Oh Ueli would be so proud of me! :) |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by Pinkfloyd on Jul 26th, 2006, 6:38pm on 07/26/06 at 16:01:33, seasonalboomer wrote:
Well, that'll never work. The word is OM (or AUM) .... OOOOMMMMMM Chanting UHHHHMMMM produces a deep feeling of indecisiveness. Not sure what they teach at the upledger institute but some of it's graduates (present company excluded at this point) have been some of the biggest quacks I've run into over the years. The old latex ballons up the nose used to be "sold" by upledger grads as a headache treatment. Pump up the balloons enough to put so much pressure on the sinus cavity (and brain) as to pop and "realign" the plates in the skull. OOOOWWWW :-/ I imagine some of them have graduated now to teaching Kabbalah, Iridology & Psychometry. BobW (Protector of all things conventional) |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by seasonalboomer on Jul 27th, 2006, 9:44am on 07/26/06 at 18:38:31, Pinkfloyd wrote:
Sh&t! Maybe that's been my "block" when it comes to getting the full benefits of my yoga classes. scott |
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Title: Re: Cranial Sacral Therapy Post by Kevin_M on Jul 27th, 2006, 11:00am Thanks for the post Bob. Hey, Pinkfloyd. PF! 8) And it only took me a few years of looking at it to notice. :-/ :) |
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