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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
        
(Message started by: Katherinecm on Jun 6^th, 2006, 10:03pm)

Title: Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
Post by Katherinecm on Jun 6^th, 2006, 10:03pm

Floridian, this may be a question for you, as I know you have written before about a correlation with heart disease and CH.

Yesterday I went for an echocardiogram to determine if my heart murmur may be a serious enough problem to be worsening my CH. Subsequently I've been searching for information about murmurs and diets that may lesson them, or reduce further heart damage.

I found this: http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc97/10_18_97/bob2.htm

It's an article that primarily discusses fen-phen and how it causes heart damage, but it notes that the damage looks remarkably similar to the damage caused by ergotamine. They speculate that the reason it causes damage has to do with altering seratonin symptoms. Since almost every drug & supplement I have taken for CH affects seratonin in some way, I am wondering if the correlation with heart problems may be due to seratonin? And if perhaps the medications may be worsening the heart problem, and thereby in the long term possibly making CH worse?

I have of course read that heart complications are a possibility in almost all of the drugs I have taken, but none of them explained it that way.

I'm wondering who else here has had worsening murmurs while being medicated? Or did the medications seem to reduce problems? Has anyone definitely correlated heart valve problems with medication?

And for anyone that does have a murmur, can you point me towards the most therapeutic diet for reducing it? The AHA website makes a vague reference, but says nothing specific. Would Dean Ornish's program for reducing heart disease work even if the problem is in my valves, not with cholesterol or coronary artery disease? It will be several weeks until I can get in to see a cardiologist and I'd like to try and prevent further valve damage in the mean time.

Thanks,
Katy

Title: Re: Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
Post by Bob_Johnson on Jun 7^th, 2006, 7:48am

Because I've never read of an association between murmur and diet, I did a search at PubMed (National Library of Medicine) and got only 6 hits covering 30-years. No mention of diet and humans.

Title: Re: Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
Post by floridian on Jun 7^th, 2006, 6:18pm

There's a tribe somewhere (Africa or Papua New Guinea, can't remember) that eats lots of very ripe bananas and has lots of phen-fen style heart damage. Researchers found that the strain of banana they eat, plus the preparation, leads to a lot of serotonin in the bananas and the blood.

It seems that too much serotonin (or too much of certain receptors) can cause cells in the lungs and heart to go fibrotic. That is why ergotamine is difficult to prescribe in some countries, and there is usually on/off cycle of a few months to prevent that from happening. There was a doctor who claims that 5-htp probably does the same thing. The 5-htp problem has never been observed, but I am somewhat cautious about it ... I take a low dose, spread out through the day, only for a few days at a time. Tryptophan does not cause the same problems, as it is converted more gradually to serotonin ... but misguided government policy keeps tryptophan supplements off the market (except in baby formula!).

The Dean Ornish diet is good for reversing atherosclerosis - ie, dissolving the cholesterol crud in the arteries. It may also help with other things (some types of arrhythmia, high blood pressure, etc). I do not believe that diet would prevent or reverse serotinin induced damage to the valves.

One of the most common contributing causes of gurgles and murmurs is mitral valve prolapse. Mitral valve disease is highly correlated with low magnesium levels, and without magnesium, the connective tissue weakens over time and allows back-flow. Another thing to consider is glucosamine -not well studied nor proven, but in theory, extra glucosamine might help people with mvp.

Quote:

Magnes Res. 2005 Mar;18(1):35-52.

The importance of magnesium status in the pathophysiology of mitral valve prolapse.

Bobkowski W, Nowak A, Durlach J.

Idiopathic mitral valve prolapse (IMVP) refers to the systolic displacement of one or both mitral leaflets into the left atrium, with or without mitral regurgitation. It is one of the most common forms of cardiac abnormalities among young people, especially in women. IMVP usually appears to be a benign condition and even capable of recovery. In a minority of cases IMVP may predispose to complications. The data suggest an autosomal dominant inheritance of IMVP that exhibits both sex- and age-dependent penetrance with variable expressivity and genetic heterogeneity. IMVP appear to be one form or aspect of latent tetany due to magnesium deficit (MDLT). The prevalence, latent nature, and symptomatology of these two conditions appear to be strictly similar. Primary magnesium (Mg) deficit may result from Mg deficiency (insufficient Mg intake) and Mg depletion (excessive urinary Mg loss). Constitutional factors (e.g. HLA-B35, type A behavior pattern) should be considered in the aetiology of Mg deficit (MD). MD may cause abnormal fibrosis, abnormalities in collagen synthesis as well as in the myocardium, capable of inducing mitral apparatus dyskinesia. MD is a part of a picture of metabolic abnormalities, alteration of immune and autonomic nervous systems, cardiac arrhythmias and thromboembolic phenomena in IMVP. Laboratory evaluation must involve plasma Mg, erythrocyte Mg, calcemia, calciuria, and daily magnesuria. Normal plasma Mg concentration does not rule out the diagnosis of primary chronic MD. The diagnosis of MD requires the oral Mg load test. Correction of symptomatology by this oral physiological Mg load (5 mg/kg/day) is the best proof that it was due to Mg deficiency. Mg therapy is essential and specific for IMVP. In the majority of cases MD is due to Mg depletion and the oral Mg supplementation must be combined with Mg-sparing diuretics or physiological doses of vitamin D. Partial "Mg analogues" (beta-blockers, verapamil, phenytoin) may prove to be useful in some cases.

Title: Re: Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
Post by kcopelin on Jun 8^th, 2006, 12:56am

Hmm..was diagnosed with MVP about 4 years ago, after years of using ergotamine compunds when in cycle. Intrestingly enough there is also a form of headache called (and I am not making this up) B.A.D. that is related to heart disease and women. Will post a link as soon as I find one as I read about this ina book.
kathy

Title: Re: Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
Post by Katherinecm on Jun 8^th, 2006, 6:21pm

Thank you all so much... especially you Floridian... I have all the symptoms described in the study, but my blood test of magnesium was normal... they said I was just a little dehydrated. I'll ask for that specific test, and in the meantime be more consistent about taking magnesium & eating magnesium-rich foods.

Title: Re: Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
Post by floridian on Jun 8^th, 2006, 6:38pm

The blood test for magnesium is not always an indicator of much - the blood absolutely needs to have a narrow range of several buffers, and our system will pull magnesium or calcium out of bones and other tissues to keep the blood happy. For many conditions, a magnesium deficiency does not become apparent until a person has so little magnesium that they are in really bad shape.

This study found that there was no difference in magnesium levels in the blood between migraneurs and normal people - but funny enough, when given a large magnesium load, the migraneurs retained much more, while the normal people pissed most of it away. This is consistent with other research on a silent magnesium deficiency, and the ability of magnesium supplements to help some with migraine/cluster/mitral valve.

Quote:

Headache. 2002 Feb;42(2):114-9.

Oral magnesium load test in patients with migraine.

Trauninger A, Pfund Z, Koszegi T, Czopf J. Department of Neurology, Medical Faculty, University of Pecs, Hungary.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether migraineurs may have a systemic deficiency of magnesium. BACKGROUND: Magnesium deficiency has been shown to play a potential role in the pathogenesis of migraine, but there are no data on total body magnesium status in migraineurs. METHODS: An oral magnesium load test was performed by giving 3000 mg of magnesium lactate during a 24-hour interictal period to 20 patients with migraine (15 women and 5 men; mean age, 37.9 years) and 20 healthy volunteers (16 women and 4 men; mean age, 39.6 years). Baseline and postload magnesium concentrations were determined from serum and 24-hour urine specimens. RESULTS: There was no significant difference between the groups in the baseline serum and urine magnesium concentrations, although the latter tended to be lower (P = .064) in the migraine group. The postload magnesium concentrations were significantly higher within both the migraine (P < .0001 and P < .0001) and the control (P = .0009 and P < .0001) groups compared to the baseline values. After loading, the 24-hour urinary magnesium excretions were significantly lower (P = .0007) in the patients with migraine than in the controls, but serum values did not differ. CONCLUSIONS: Magnesium retention occurs in patients with migraine after oral loading, suggesting a systemic magnesium deficiency.

Title: Re: Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
Post by ray4903 on Jul 12^th, 2006, 12:02pm

Hi, just read this thread.
I ahve been a CH sufferer for many years and take primarily IM injections ( as that seems to be teh only thing that works).

My last episode was earlier thsi year and was a doozy-- took more IM than ever before and for longer period.
At my last full physical, my heart murmur, which was very very slight and stable for all teh years since detected was found to be much more pronounced and also diagnosed as endocarditis condition.
Next, within last few weeks, it has been determined that I have a vascual blockage in my right leg - causing very serious cramping.
I am still trying to determine if these things ahve been brought about by IM ( or at least accelerated by IM).
I had been very healthy all around (except the Ch's) until thsi even after several years of taking IM during episodes - is there a 'cumulative effect' of Im - or does it exit from the blood stream relatively quickly / soon after you cease taking it ?

Title: Re: Seratonin, ergotamine & heart valve damage
Post by floridian on Jul 12^th, 2006, 5:54pm

What is IM? Imitrex?

Imitrex itself is broken down and/or excreted fairly quickly. If you stop taking it, your risk of heart complications from that medicine goes down quickly. On the other hand, if you have endocarditis and thrombosis or phlebitis or intermittent claudication (causing leg pain), those issues still have to be addressed with other meds and life style changes.