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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Medications, Treatments, Therapies >> Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
        
(Message started by: Garys_Girl on May 13^th, 2006, 12:46pm)

Title: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Garys_Girl on May 13^th, 2006, 12:46pm

After upping Gary's dose of Melatonin to 15mg, he did start to get a bit more sleep, but would still wake up for the 1:30am and 3:30am hits.

I was browsing for info on sleep cycles and biologic clocks, and came across this information:

http://www.holisticonline.com/Remedies/Sleep/sleep_ins_melatonin-and-5HTP.htm

We changed Gary to the L-5-HTP (L-5-hydroxytriptophan). The supplements we found are "Healthy Thymes" in 100mg. Gary is now taking 200mg. So far we haven't gotten to sleep before his 1:30am hit, but he has been sleeping through the 3:30am hit without a hit when he wakes up in the morning.

In the article, I feel the most important parts are:

"Clinical trials show that 5-HTP is a safe, natural way to boost the brain serotonin levels. Use of 5-HTP has been shown to produce results equal to or better than those of standard synthetic drugs used in the problems arising from serotonin deficiency syndrome.....

5-HTP bypasses the brain's light-regulation system that controls the secretion of melatonin. 5-HTP results in the increased the production of neurotransmitters such as serotonin and norepinephrine that stimulate the noradrenergic receptors in the brain. This stimulation directly triggers the production and release of melatonin.
Thus, when you take 5-HTP, it causes the release of melatonin irrespective of how much light is present. The higher levels of melatonin in circulation, helps you to fall asleep and stay asleep better.

People with low melatonin who take 5-HTP at nighttime can enjoy the same sleep enhancing benefits as they will from taking melatonin alone, but they will also be getting the broader spectrum of benefits that comes from increased serotonin levels. (If you take melatonin alone it does not enhance the functions of the serotonin system.)"

The switch from Melatonin to 5-HTP has helped Gary.

Please note: you would NOT take both Melatonin and 5-HTP, the 5-HTP would be instead of the Melatonin.

Just an FYI.

Laurie

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by floridian on May 13^th, 2006, 1:14pm

Most 5-htp is converted to serotonin, and some serotonin is converted to melatonin.

Some people report an increase in hits with 5htp - the serotonin it turns into hits all the serotonin receptors, and some need to be stimulated (5-ht1, which is what the triptans do) while others seem to help if they are blocked (5-ht2, which is blocked by olanzpine, kudzu and clusterbusters). I don't know if the increase in cluster activity is a temporary thing, or if it is something that some people would experience as long as they take it.

Some studies have shown that 5-htp can help with migraines.

I have had decent results with 5-htp and melatonin - I take the 5htp in the morning and mid-day (25-50 mg each time), and the melatonin at night (1.5 - 3 mg). Some long term concerns if taking large doses - there is a hypothetical risk of phen-fen type heart problems (never actually seen) and serotonin syndrome/hyperthermia can occur if the dose is too large, or the body is too sensitive.

http://www.med-owl.com/clusterheadaches/tiki-index.php?page=5-HTP

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Garys_Girl on May 13^th, 2006, 1:16pm

Excellent - thanks for the additional info!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Laurie

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Garys_Girl on May 13^th, 2006, 1:18pm

Wow - that's important. Anyone taking triptans or anti-depressants should NOT take 5-HTP! With so many clusterheads taking one or both, no wonder most use Melatonin!

Laurie

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by pattik on May 13^th, 2006, 1:55pm

Seven years ago, I did a self-trial of 5HTP in an attempt to avert a cycle I knew would be coming up. Unfortunately, it didn't make a bit of difference in stopping or delaying the next onset. Maybe others have had more luck with it.

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Garys_Girl on May 13^th, 2006, 2:27pm

yeah - it's not aborting hubby's cycle. It is allowing him to sleep a lot longer and better than he has been (and better than when he was on Melatonin).

I will note that hubby is not on any prescription meds. He does have and occassionally uses Tramadol (a narcotic that helps push the beast into the background for a while - for him). But he's doesn't use imitrex (a triptan) or any anti-depressants.

Laurie

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Garys_Girl on May 13^th, 2006, 2:42pm

Oh great - Tramadol in combination with with 5-HTP could potential result in Seratonin Syndrome (something Floridian was warning about):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome

The bad news is Seratonin Syndrome can be life-threatening (!); the good news is that if you stop the medications, the situation generally resolves itself within 24 hours.

Laurie

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by I_can_dance on May 13^th, 2006, 7:23pm

My husband began taking Melatonin 9mg tapered up to 15mg for 3weeks and was still waking up every night with the beast. He had no apparent side-effects(grogginess) but no help with sleep either. He then upped his dose to 18 mg and has slept through the night since. (About a week) He does now wake about 6am with a hit, but he is certainly resting more. I guess we'll worry about long-term effects later.

He also tried 5-HTP briefly with no apparent effect.

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by thomas on May 14^th, 2006, 12:40pm

Just a friendly warning. DO NOT take any SSRI's(Selective seratonin reuptake inhibiters- prozac, paxil, welbutrin etc.) with 5htp. It can cause some severe problems and/or death.

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by LeLimey on May 14^th, 2006, 1:03pm

Laurie, Tramadol isn't a narcotic, I hope that alleviates some of your worries at least!
Helen

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Radha on May 16^th, 2006, 12:41am

i take st. john's wort for mild depression, is it ok to take 5 HTP with that? and how high can you go with the HTP? thanks
radha

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by maffumatt on May 16^th, 2006, 10:00am

Flo how about a link to your online book, I can never find it when I need it and I know alot of the newer people here would like to take a look, its one of the best collection of information I have found.

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by floridian on May 16^th, 2006, 4:26pm

www.med-owl.com will get you there - first link on the main page.

Also at the bottom of my signature.

Quote:

i take st. john's wort for mild depression, is it ok to take 5 HTP with that? and how high can you go with the HTP? thanks
radha

I wouldn't mix them, or would do so very very gradually. One of the compounds in St. Johns wort is a heterocyclic compound similar to tricyclic antidepressants.

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Garys_Girl on May 16^th, 2006, 6:04pm

From the link above to the Wikipedia discussion of Seratonin Syndrome, it agrees with Floridian's assessment: St. John's Wort is classified as an anti-depressant and is thus a no-no to mix with 5-HTP. Here's the rest of the "don't do it if you're taking these" list:

Class / Drugs

antidepressants: MAOIs, TCAs, SSRIs, mirtazapine, venlafaxine, St John's Wort

opioids: tramadol, pethidine, CNS stimulants phentermine, diethylpropion, amphetamines, sibutramine

5-HT1 agonists: triptans

Illicit drugs: methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), cocaine

Others: selegiline, tryptophan, buspirone, lithium, linezolid, dextromethorphan, 5-HTP

And Helen: thanks for the info on Tramadol. Apparently it's an "atypical opiod" with a "low probability" of addiction. It's typically prescribed in amounts (orally) from 50mg to 400mg daily: hubby's scrip is for 50mg pills to be taken 3x daily (although he only takes them when he needs to push the beast back when we've got a biz meeting and he feels the beast about to bust - but then he'll take 2 or 3 at the same time).

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Radha on May 19^th, 2006, 12:06am

does that mean you can take st. johns wort and 5 HTP at different time of the day? do you think that would be ok? thanks for any help
radha

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by Garys_Girl on May 19^th, 2006, 7:48am

It seems that it is best not to mix them at all.

If you choose to mix them against medical recommendations, please read this page about Seratonin Syndrome.

It can cause death if the symptoms are confused for anything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome

Title: Re: Melatonin vs. 5-HTP
Post by nikozai on May 23^rd, 2006, 10:43pm

eh, death shmeth ;;D ::)

When i take Melatonin I can't get myself up in the morning, so i'm going to give 5-HTP a shot to see if it can do any better.
I'm weening myself off Pred. - now down to 5mg in the morning only (3rd day) and with decent success, I got hit last night hard for 30 minutes and actually passed out in the middle of the attack (from the pain i bet) But that's the only serious attack.
Every other attack was under 15 minutes and was aborted using redbull and an ice pack right at the start. It seriously works as fast as Imitrex pills for me, it's crazy. I swear to gawd it's a placebo LOL - I'll believe anything at this point. haha

I'm taking:
9am - 1000mg Taurine, 613 Kudzu, 5mg Pred. plus a redbull
9pm - 1000mg Taurine, 613 Kudzu.
and another redbull in the middle of the night if I have an attack.

I've never really had a problem sleeping, but always a problem waking up in the morning. That problem disappeared when I started taking Prednizone. Now it's comin back.

Once I get off the pred, if i don't get hit every day then something is working. If i cold-turkey everything, i get hit at 3am for at least an hour, within 5 minutes of waking up normal in the morning. then at around 6pm in the afternoon I'll get a migraine that will escalate to a fever and eye pain as if i'm dehydrated when i'm not.