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Title: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by brad267 on Jan 17th, 2004, 2:24pm Hi All, If faced with the very real possiblity of getting laid off, where you make 95% of the $$$ for your family of 5 (3 toddlers), is it morally wrong to stop taking preventative meds, to show work what these headaches can actually do to a once functional person, and file a claim for workers compensation? (Thereby file for workers comp just before they lay you off) Getting laid off would mean no money (obviously), no medical benefits, no imitrex, etc, etc... and would within 4-5 months lead to financial ruin -- Lord knows what mental/medical shape you'd suffer either! Going the workers comp route would mean full paycheck, benefits, and imitrex for quite a long time, while you search for a new job.... (Life stays good, and you don't have to live under a bridge..) This is not something I'm trying to decide. (I'd be stupid to broadcast deceptive intentions on the internet, eh?) I've already made my decision to NOT file for workers comp, and let the chip fall wherever they may. This is against my wife's wishes, and I'm suffering evil eyes, middle fingers, crossed legs, and snide comments because of this decision. I was curious as to what you all thought about this topic... Wife's point: I guess it's about Maslov's hierarchy of needs... Ya gotta do WHATEVER it takes to take care of your self (meds) and your family ($$$) also The Ends justify the means??? My Point: Wrong is wrong! Simple as that. Who's right? Who's wrong? Am I an idiot? Thanks, Brad p.s. I'm looking for hypothetical advice, and NO specifics that "may" get someone in trouble... "If I were you blah blah blah" or "If I were your wife blah blah blah" works well. LOL |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Linda_Howell on Jan 17th, 2004, 2:34pm In my opinion it's only morally wrong if you're lying about having Clusters in the first place. If you have CH and it's been diagnosed as such...I don't see the moral dilemma. Linda |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by brad267 on Jan 17th, 2004, 2:42pm Oh yes, diagnosed CH with Migraine kickers for 2 yrs now. The Migraines are insignificant, comparitively.. See my neuro every 2 months -- and love him. Been successful on preventatives for a long time - knock on wood, however I know the CH's still lurk, because all I need to do is forget my morning verapamil and by dinner time, I start the uglies... Brad |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Linda_Howell on Jan 17th, 2004, 2:44pm Then go for it Brad. Your 3 children are your priority. Linda |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by ave on Jan 17th, 2004, 2:53pm Isn't this something you paid money for at one time, or all the time - premiums, fees, dues, taxes? In that case I wouldn't hesitate to claim what I paid for in advance. You would not mind if it were an insurance company.... But if you feel it is wrong, and will go on feeling it is wrong - well, gotto do what you gotto do... |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by RevDeFord on Jan 17th, 2004, 2:56pm I am not sure I am understanding what you are saying. Are you saying that you are going to stop taking preventative medications and then do a workman's comp claim on the clusters? If that is what you are saying, you will be arrested for fraud as soon as an investigation into your past insurance claims have been. And if you receive a stiff fine or jail time, you will not be doing your family any good. Workers Compensation benefits do not work for headaches or other things that it cannot be proven your occupation is responsible for. A secretary can make the case that typing caused carpal tunnel syndrome. Your headaches are not caused by something at your work. Now, quit taking the meds, get a headache and crash a forklift in the store room or something, that is different. But even then, the disability has to be such that you cannot work, at all. Most wills end you to therapy or to doctor's appointments and the workman's comp doctors want to get you back working ASAP. And, if you ever want to find another job, they will ask if you have ever filed a workman's comp. claim. Honesty is always the best policy in the long run. You want your kids to be responsible and look at you for guidance in tough situations, not take the low road because "dad did". I would say start looking for another job now. The workforce is starting to expand and you might be surprised at what you find. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Cerberus on Jan 17th, 2004, 2:56pm Interesting..... I want to see if I got this straight. Albeit, hypothetically. The wife says: Gotta look out for #1, and the ends justifies the means. You say: Wrong is Wrong even in the face of imminent "ruin". Linda also has a point: If having CH isn't a farce then whats the problem? So in trying to avoid turning this into a male/female poll, I'd say that whatever the desicion may be, it ultimately HAS to be the one you can live with for the rest of your life guilt free. In my opinion, if morality is even questionable then the answer is definately not to do it. Hardship may be had, but if your family's support is solid ,no matter what, the issues that develop can be overcome. Ramon |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Kirk on Jan 17th, 2004, 3:08pm This condition affects your ability to find employment. So I would say yes take advantage of workmens comp. That being said. Remember I am a person of low, small, little morals. No morals in fact. Although I was told about them once. Take care of that family dude. TTFN |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by don on Jan 17th, 2004, 3:21pm What would be morally wrong would be to deprive your family when it can be prevented. Humble yourself. Do what you have to do. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Giovanni on Jan 17th, 2004, 3:30pm I really do not understand how Workers Comp would even play in this situation. Are you talking about disability perhaps? Irregardless, I would get whatever I could under this situation until you can land another job. Maslow's hierarchy of needs includes shelter and food at the lowest levels. Good luck. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by 9erfan on Jan 17th, 2004, 4:01pm It would be disability not Workers Comp...the job didn't cause the clusters. I would think you could still get disability even it you wait to file AFTER losing your job. There are people out there that are getting disability for clusters but it's my understanding that it's very difficult to get and the process could take quite a while. |
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Title: an inside job Post by rumplestiltskin on Jan 17th, 2004, 4:12pm Sept 2003 ...CH at worst ever level. All paid time off used up. Went out on "disability" from job of 13 years. "disability" means waiting at least 6 months for SSI and/or Comp. insurance to kick in. N0 savings. Immenent ruin in 2 months. Employer shows true color by not helping and changing locks. I decide I don't want to go back. Time for a change. SSI denies claim. My headaches cease. Comp. insurance "disability" claim will end now cause now I'm not "disabled". Selling tools to keep electric on. I could lie and say the headaches continued. Get money that I paid taxes and insurance premiums for. All I have to do is live a lie. I know that that eats me away from the inside. For me...living dishonestly is not living. It eventually rots my whole existence...I know because I have tried it....it takes a long time to crawl back to the sunshine. Insurance co: Bloodsucking bastards US Govt: Power hungry dark side demons. See congressional retirement law, war etc. Do I want to become them? Nada. Do I have a secure future? Nada. Would I rather be on the side of truth and light....and let the chips fall where they may? You betcha. Walk in the sunshine den |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by jonny on Jan 17th, 2004, 4:32pm I dont do hypothetical. ..........................jonny |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Ann on Jan 17th, 2004, 4:55pm I don't know what your system is like in the States, so I won't comment on worker's comp or disability. I would have a real problem , however, living with myself, if I lied to get some cash. I imagine you would have to keep the farce up for a while, in order to keep it. It seems to me that if you are pain free on your meds than if just wouldn't be right to fake it. It sure wouldn't help our cause in general either. Good luck with whatever choice you make. hugs Ann |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by hopefull on Jan 17th, 2004, 4:57pm YOU have to live with the choices you make...yes your wife might not be real nice about it but if there were ever to be charges filed who would serve the time not her but you....write down the pros and cons....short term and long...see where you end up....but if you feel it's wrong period....don't do it ....having something eat at you is not fun,good,or healthy...and there is assistance out there...not fun but nessecary... Hope everything works out for you.... |
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Title: Re: an inside job Post by brad267 on Jan 17th, 2004, 5:56pm on 01/17/04 at 16:12:43, rumplestiltskin wrote:
And on 01/17/04 at 16:12:43, rumplestiltskin wrote:
..Those are the words I was looking for when arguing with my wife... Thanks! Again, I had already decided what I am going to do, which is: No Disability Claim and the chips fall where the may. I already know I got one vote in the "You Dumb Ass" category from my wife. It looks 50/50 here... .... And I screwed up. I meant Short Term Disability which (wife's point is: ) I HAVE PAID INSURANCE FOREVER ON, and could pay me 100% of my salary for 1 year, and then Long Tern Disability would kick in for 75%. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks, Brad |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Mikey on Jan 17th, 2004, 6:19pm If you don't mind being on an Disability list Brad, then you can try for it, because having chronic clusters along with Hypoxcemia, got me on disability right away on the first try! So it's possible from what the State Docs told me, to get disability from CH alone. Also, my Chs are not responding to any meds either. It all really depends on your med records, and what the disability board thinks of your condition. Then again, this may not be something you want to do. Mikey, ;;D |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by cathy on Jan 17th, 2004, 6:21pm Damn you didn't give me a chance to have my say...I was going to say Always take notice of your gut feeling... :) |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Woobie on Jan 17th, 2004, 6:25pm on 01/17/04 at 14:24:45, brad267 wrote:
So, your wife wants you to stop taking all your meds... so you can inflict the CH beast ONTO yourself... [smiley=nono.gif] Hmmmmmmmm...... I better not.......... Brad - i wish you well. No matter what you do. Sounds like you already know what to do. Do it with your head held High.........and do it PF. WOW ---- Tina |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Opus on Jan 17th, 2004, 7:08pm on 01/17/04 at 14:24:45, brad267 wrote:
Brad, doesn't your state have unemployment insurance? I just got laid off and I am happy, it's like a paid vacation and will give me time to recover from this living nightmare. Also check out and see if you state has health insurance for your children, NY does for a small fee. Another problem with your plan is that the doctors will either put you back on your preventative or give you another one, if you fail to take these then they can test you blood for levels of the meds. If that happens then you will go to jail. Opus/Paul |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by brad267 on Jan 17th, 2004, 8:08pm Woobie, My wife is wonderful and not deserving of your "Hmmm" LOL. I'm misrepresenting her case. My CH is a case where I could strategically time not taking my meds, and I will have headaches +/- on demand. When uncontrolled, I was 8/day every 3 hrs at 10ish past the hr. She was asking that I sandbag A FEW headaches. i.e. in front of the boss, the company nurse, the disability doctor, etc. When no one is watching, take the meds!!! If properly planned, I wouldn't have had to even fake one. Because to be honest, who can fake one? And that I am comfortable with. One or two or three headaches that could = $$$ and security is well worth it. CH doesn't kill us! Everyone on this board could do that blindfolded, backwards, tapdancing... We did joke about selling Imitrex to pay for COBRA, to get more Imitrex, to sell, to pay for COBRA, etc.... Opus, We have unemployment insurance in TX, but it is so piss-poor, it won't pay the van note, nor will it cover COBRA. I am researching child health care benefits right now in another browser. Thanks, Brad |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Tiannia on Jan 17th, 2004, 10:13pm I dont think Workmans comp, unless it is different then here in Nevada, would come to play unless you said that your work caused your headaches. (On a side note - because my HA started 3 weeks after I started my new job, my hubby when I was having a really bad day actually braught that up to me. Casue I had my officer manager threaten my job. But 3 weeks after that I found out that she does not have that authority over me so I blow her off and dont pay any attention to her. ) But you should be able to put in to Short term or long ter disability and try to get on SSD> That will allow you to provide for your family and it would not be morily wrong as the Clusters do effect normal funtion untreated. Tiannia. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by chronic_chic on Jan 17th, 2004, 10:34pm I would say make a go for the SSD. Sometimes it is difficult to get, but there are plenty of people who work in the field willing to work with you to help you get it. I have a few resources if you are interested. PM me if you want. As you've already realized (I think), and people have said...worker's comp definately doesn't come into play unless you can prove that your CH was somehow caused by your job. Hospitals definatley check it out, too. This summer, I had a guy come in who claimed worker's comp for an injury, and I called his employer to confirm, which is part of our protocol. The employer said he hadn't been to work in 3 months. The injury he had just had definately wasn't going to be going on the worker's comp! However, disability due to CH is DEFINATELY an option if you are willing to go for it. Good luck! ~Lizzie :) |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Charlie on Jan 17th, 2004, 10:38pm The fact that you came here is good. Stay out of trouble and within the law but explore everything. You never know. They need to know CH is a true horror. Health care and in the US is a disgrace. When you seek help remember that the fist priority is to say no and get you to go away. I can understand where you're coming from but unlike government and insurance companies, you're required to play by the rules. Bastards. Good luck. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Dave_Emond on Jan 17th, 2004, 11:00pm Hi Brad, Straightfoward ... is your possibility of being laid off due to lack of production due to your CH? Sorry if I'm wrong here, but your message didn't seem to indicate that CH is the reason. What I interpet is that your preventatives are working well enough that you can function at work, and may be laid off for another reason. If you believe you can function in your work, or another job then you owe it to yourself and family to make every attempt to do so. You will not get Workmans Comp! Most likely you won't get disability either, since the SSA agent will need info from your doctors that preventatives do not work for you, but fortunatley for you they do! If you have the time, start looking around for another job now, just in case. I'm with you, right is right & wrong is wrong, just going to have to keep your head up and fight. (Clusterheads have experience at that.) JMHO, Dave |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by forgetfulnot on Jan 17th, 2004, 11:01pm Quote:
And be prepared to wait 2-3 years for an administrative law judge hearing. If you work at anything during this period your claim will be rejected. Your medical records must show that you are unable to work. It's a pretty high hill to obtain medical disability. FYI, Lee |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by don on Jan 17th, 2004, 11:07pm Quote:
I would to but it's a little difficult to explain that position to three hungry toddlers. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by BlueMeanie on Jan 17th, 2004, 11:43pm Brad, Prior to finding out about the possibility of getting laid off, where your Clusters disabling enough to consider disability ? If you never considered disability, prior to your lay-off, why consider it now ? You are entitled to unemployment benefits. If your CH's are NOT disabling, then you should claim unemployment and find a job. Don't want to sound so negative. But to me, I don't want to see you trying a scam and getting busted for it. Your choice. Do what YOU think is best. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by don on Jan 17th, 2004, 11:48pm Quote:
Sounds pretty damn POSITIVE to me. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by TxBasslady on Jan 18th, 2004, 12:49am Take what you are entitled too....... If you get laid off.........file for unemployment benefits. Those benefits would pay a percentage of your salary. In the meanwhile.......take the unemployment, and find another job. I think you get about 26 weeks of unemployment benefits. Not sure of that, cause I never had to do it. However, you do pay some into unemployment benefits. Do the honest thing. If you acquire $$ or benefits dishonestly.........no good will come of that. Don't be so critical of what Woobie said......(speaking of her ....uummmm response) Go back and read what YOU said. Woobie's response was justified. You asked for opinions........that was HER opinion on part of what you posted. Woobie is a fantastic supporter, and would give the shirt off her back to help a fellow CH'er. Please do not be critical of responses that you clearly asked for. Pf vibes, Jean |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by RevDeFord on Jan 18th, 2004, 8:42am Ok, now listen Brad. You mentioned workman's comp before, and I would be against that. However, it seems like you are actually talking about disability. That is different. There is nothing wrong with taking disability if you are disabled. The question for you is going to be, can you live the years that it will take to get approved. Just because you file for disability doesn't mean that you get it right away. I have never seen anyone get it in less than 3 months. Your doctor will have to sign paperwork stating that the medications are ineffective and that you are disabled. You can't claim disability without the documentation to back it up. In addition, they may require you to see an independent doctor for another opinion. Ultimately it is a lot of red tape, so if you aren't truly disabled, it will be a nightmare for your family. However, like I said, we all know how disabling clusters can be. And if you qualify go for it if you can handle the long period of time with no income. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by stevegeebe on Jan 18th, 2004, 9:54am Is Someone keeping account of the good or the bad that we do? Will They steer appropriate measures of fortune or misfortune based on our actions? When I observe the injustice on this little planet, I think not. But in my little world, I do not tempt the possibility that He is and that He will. If I am totally wrong, than at least I know that I have tried to be an example of a good human being. "Necessity never made a good bargain." Franklin Good luck Brad. Steve G |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by t_h_b on Jan 18th, 2004, 10:46am Usually when you have to ask yourself if something is wrong, it is. Sometimes the ends justify the means, but in this case you would probably be unsuccessful anyway. The other alternatives are more likely to be helpful. Unless it comes down to your children actually starving, they would be better off being able to respect you and learn from your morals than to be financially secure. One day they will have to know the difference between right and wrong. Nobody ever said life was going to be easy or fair and they need to know that. You might be surprised that people are willing to help you if you ask. People enjoy the feeling that they get from helping others. Good luck! |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by brad267 on Jan 18th, 2004, 12:41pm Well the wife and I have hashed it out and made a game plan that both of us can live with and no one has to go to jail. LOL I do appreciate all the advice here! She got a job offer at a hotel (at VERY low pay and 50+ hrs/wk, but with benefits) that she's going to take -- for the sole purpose of carrying the healthcare. This new job will at least allow her to adjust her work schedule, so that we can tag-team. I work the day shift (until I get laid off) and she'll work the night shift -- thereby not requiring daycare. We'll bank everything for when I get laid off. When I get laid off (we guess end of Feb or early Mar) I'm going to play Mr Mom until I find a new job. We have no family nearby to help with watching the kids, so when I return to work, I need to make quit a bit to pay daycare for 3 kids, in addition to all the bills. The wife's new job may or may not allow her to maintain a night shift for a long time. My resume is up to date, and I will start looking for a job ASAP. It is preferred that I find a job before I ever get laid off, but the economy is tough. The worst case scenario becomes: funds are available to survive for 5 or 6 months. After that, we have to sell the house and rent somewhere. Equity in the house will give us approx 5 or 6 more months of life. After that, we move in with the folks, which they don't know about yet, LOL, and use our piddly income to pay for the increases in electricity, water, food, etc... Not a bad worst-case-scenario. No one has to lie, cheat, steal or go to jail. We do lose a lot of pride, and every creature comfort... -- And that's an overall lesson I'd be proud to teach those toddlers. Thanks Again Everyone, Brad |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by jonny on Jan 18th, 2004, 12:56pm Good luck to you, Brad!! Heres a tip......Tell the folks now that you might have to move in with them....Maybe they will throw you a few grand to keep you going ;;D ..............jonny |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Ann on Jan 18th, 2004, 4:09pm Now THAT sounds like a plan!! Good luck Brad! hugs Ann |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by RevDeFord on Jan 18th, 2004, 10:02pm I'm always lovin the parents with a grand to throw my way. Certainly makes life grand. My in-laws paid more than a thousand to fence in our backyard for my son, and I didn't even ask. For all the complaining we do about our families some times, it is good to know there are some that really care. Good luck Brad. I think you have a good game plan and you may be surprised at just how good it turns out. Remember to have a regular date plan with your wife though. Even if it is just to go to the park and take a stroll or make out somewhere, working split shifts can be a strain on a marriage if you aren;t prepared for it ahead of time. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by TomM on Jan 18th, 2004, 10:20pm LindaH's post is very ultruistic nor realistic. Sorry hon, the world does not agree that we (CHer's) have any issues. After all, they're just Head Aches, right? Food for thought, why not look for a new job with benefits BEFORE you get laid off? Teaching your kids right from wrong is fundemental and imperative. TomM |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by KingOfPain on Jan 19th, 2004, 1:48am "Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong?" Yes. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Donna H. on Jan 19th, 2004, 3:27am If in doubt....don't. That's been my motto forever. You can live with yourself and loved ones without that lingering "wonder if I did something that I shouldn't have" feeling. The thing that bothers me most is that it's really a fact that some of us are just a paycheck or two from being homeless. What gives? It isn't right. "They" say that there are plenty of jobs out there. But, let's see how far they can go on next-to-minimum wage because most of "all " those jobs earn just that. |
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Title: Re: Survey of Morals... Is this Wrong? Post by Bob P on Jan 19th, 2004, 9:04am A couple clusters back, my boss encouraged me to file a workers comp clain for my clusters. Said I could claim they were work related. I refused. I see no problem with filing a non-industrail disability claim for clusters but to blame them on work and then bloodsuck $ from the working class is below my morals. |
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