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(Message started by: 12gagueblast on Jan 4th, 2004, 8:29pm)
Title: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excellent
Post by 12gagueblast on Jan 4th, 2004, 8:29pm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107274,00.html

If you are a subject in Europe your government will not want you to read this.  If you are a citizen of the U.S. please read before it is too late and we are also subjects.  

(Sorry the pot hasn't been stirred for a while.) ;;D
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by jimbo on Jan 4th, 2004, 9:10pm
Great reading!


I'll add my two cents worth later.

Seeya,

Jimbo
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Charlie on Jan 4th, 2004, 11:30pm
Cable news networks exist to scare the shit out of their listeners. My suggestion is to whack cable news for this.
No one is more guilty of this than Fox by the way.

Charlie:  A dangerous liberal who owns more than one gun.











Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by KingOfPain on Jan 5th, 2004, 12:54am
I live in a Make My Day (law) state.

I own guns that are ALWAYS loaded.


There are no trigger locks on my guns.

There are no children in my home.


Choice between my life & an intruder's?

I choose my survival.


The only people that have reason to fear
my guns are criminals coming into my house.



That's all I have to say about that.
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by forgetfulnot on Jan 5th, 2004, 1:20am

on 01/05/04 at 00:54:52, KingOfPain wrote:
I live in a Make My Day (law) state.

I own guns that are ALWAYS loaded.


There are no trigger locks on my guns.

There are no children in my home.


Choice between my life & an intruder's?

I choose my survival.


The only people that have reason to fear
my guns are criminals coming into my house.



That's all I have to say about that.


10-4 steve 100%l

Lee....
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Callico_Kid on Jan 5th, 2004, 1:28am
An excellent article.  While I at present do not have a gun im my home I plan to obtain one shortly.  I have been trained in their use, and am strongly in favor of people retaining the right to defend themselves.  The only caveat I would attach to personal gun ownership would be that each person who has a weapon should be trained in the proper and safe usage of it.  On two seperate occasions having a gun on my person saved me from holdups when I was running a gas station.  (They didn't make the news either,)

Just my two cents worth although I think their value much higher. ;;D

Be safe and PF
jc
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by BobG on Jan 5th, 2004, 4:06am

on 01/05/04 at 01:28:26, Callico_Kid wrote:
The only caveat I would attach to personal gun ownership would be that each person who has a weapon should be trained in the proper and safe usage of it.  


That should also be required of those that get a driver’s license or a cell phone.

BobG-gun owner
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by ClusterChuck on Jan 5th, 2004, 6:19am
I do not own a gun, and do not plan on owning one.  I have nothing against those that do, it is just I don't trust myself.  I am afraid that one of these times I will pull it out and use it, not to kill myself, but to blow my head off so that it won't hurt anymore.  I think there have been times in the past, where I would have done that.  I am not so prone to those thoughts since I found my CH family, but I still will not take the chance.

Just my personal concerns.

Chuck
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Kirk on Jan 5th, 2004, 8:12am
Being from Oregon and a former Marine my feelings on the matter may be prejudiced somewhat.
Everyone should be taught safe firearm practices, from early on.
This will more than likely prevent most accidental harm caused by fire arms.

"An armed society, is perforce a polite society"

So as my Gunny said. Get a grip.

Remember a gun is a weapon with a bore over 105 MM diameter. Be carefull with that thar pistol now.

TTFN
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by TomM on Jan 5th, 2004, 8:49am
This is a piss poor example of why we SHOULD have guns. The excuse of how many crimes were thwarted by gun wielding citizens is lame.
Those of us who own guns (I personally own 13) AND are law-abiding citizens who have had training (NRA, Boy Scouts, and Military) are NOT the people (Note that I qualified this statement with law abiding) who commit crimes with guns.
Training at an early age is key. I had my first training with a .22 rifle in the Boy Scouts at age 11 in a National Guard Armory, taken the NRA safety class more times than I can count, and have had extensive training with .45 Colts, M16's and riot shot guns during my tenure in the Coast Guard.
Knowing when to use and how to handle a weapon is the key element. Friends from my office have asked to go pheasant hunting with me but when I found out they 1) do not own a gun; 2) have never handled a gun. and most importantly, 3) never had training I politely refuse. I tell them to take an NRA gun safety class, get a hold of me and we'll go a range and practice, then I'll take you hunting.
Guns are not more dangerous than a drunk driver, a speeding teenager or a plane laden with fuel headed to the Twin Towers. Hell, all men have the potential to rape just because we have a penis but that does not make us criminals. The same is true for gun owners. That, my friends, should be the argument. Not that more crimes are prevented by gun wielding citizens.

OK--blast away...

TomM
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Kirk on Jan 5th, 2004, 9:14am
Will you look at that a "coastie" who thinks he knows firearms. On top of that he makes sense.
Next thing you know he'll be able to hit what he's aiming at.

Maybe there is hope after all.

TTFN
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Paigelle on Jan 5th, 2004, 9:18am
I grew up around guns.  My grandparents have a farm and there are guns everywhere.  We were taught to respect guns, not fear them.  We were also taught how to use them, if we needed to.  Most of the men in my family would hunt, so they carried guns all over the farm.  We don't have a gun right now, because we haven't bought one.  But I only fear a gun in the hands of someone who wants to use it for crime or hasn't been taught to use a gun properly, not for protection or hunting.  Does that make any sense?
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by TomM on Jan 5th, 2004, 9:49am
Paige--there are many reasons to carry a gun on a farm mainly rodents.
Kirk--say after me..."This my weapon. This is my gun. This is for fighting and this is for fun." Remember that? Note that I did not write 'Repeat...'.
Haven't met a jar head I did not like. :)

Have you ever noticed how on TV show or the movies or music videos that the gun wielding thugs shoot with the pistol handle parallel to the gound? No wonder they can't hit the broad side of a barn and no wonder innocent bystanders are shot on the streets.
Just an observation.
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by KenB on Jan 5th, 2004, 10:49am
Unfortunately a liberal gun culture also leads to:

http://history1900s.about.com/library/weekly/aa041303a.htm

In Ireland handguns are against the law - the police don't even carry them!  However, we experience very little gun related crime.  It's a chicken or egg argument.
Title: Ass-Hat Gun Owners
Post by floridian on Jan 5th, 2004, 10:51am
I'm not afraid of guns (I own several) - I am afraid of some of the ass-hats that own guns.  New Years Eve comes, and several people in my neighborhood think they are Sadam Hussein, firing guns in the air for celebration.  Dumbasses don't bother to think about where the bullets come down, or how hard.  One friend (different neighborhood) found a bullet hole in his roof when investigating a leak.


Quote:
"An armed society, is perforce a polite society"

Except for New Years Eve and the 4th of July, when the police just won't respond to reports of gun shots, unless someone witnessed the shots or reports a body. In a neighborhood with woods, hills and gulleys, and other complexities, you can hear alot but see little.  

Gonna have to build me a 3-D phase array of microphones so I can triangulate the bastards.
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by 12gagueblast on Jan 5th, 2004, 12:10pm
Ken this is not a gun culture that leads to this it is a reduction of the value of life and liberal morals that lead to this.  I cant speak of irelands crime rates but london is now more dangerous than NY city, and gun crimes in england have sky rocketed since your gun ban.  cant walk down the street there i here will find a suitable article to post to illustrate this point.

Subject or citizen i know my choice every time.

try reading Thomas Paines "Common Sence and the Rights of Man".  I'm not sure if they print it over there but it has been in print over here for a couple of hundred years now. :)
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by KenB on Jan 5th, 2004, 12:35pm

on 01/05/04 at 12:10:03, 12gagueblast wrote:
gun crimes in england have sky rocketed since your gun ban.  


Ireland didn't ban guns in England.
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Big_Dan on Jan 5th, 2004, 12:53pm
... everyone who knows me know's where I stand here...

I carry my pistol in my truck at all times, clip in, nothing chambered... it's for my protection, and anyone that happens to be with me when I'm on the road, and it's in my nightstand when I'm at home...

... I was firing pistols/rifles/shotguns since the age of 8, and I've have a few hunter safety courses... I'm pretty confident that I'll know how to handle a situation should it arrive.... but I hope it never does...


... and the only way anyone will ever take my guns from me, is when they pry them from my cold, dead rotting carcass...



-Big Dan
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by KingOfPain on Jan 5th, 2004, 12:59pm

on 01/05/04 at 06:19:43, ClusterChuck wrote:
I do not own a gun, and do not plan on owning one.  I have nothing against those that do, it is just I don't trust myself.  I am afraid that one of these times I will pull it out and use it, not to kill myself, but to blow my head off so that it won't hurt anymore.  I think there have been times in the past, where I would have done that.  I am not so prone to those thoughts since I found my CH family, but I still will not take the chance.

Just my personal concerns.

Chuck



I respect that.

Thank you for your honesty Chuck.

Pain Free Times To You (& all others).
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by floridian on Jan 5th, 2004, 1:25pm

Quote:
this is not a gun culture that leads to this it is a reduction of the value of life and liberal morals that lead to this.


I don't think that social decay is a left-right political thing, but if you want to examine it from that angle,

Infant mortality is highest in the conservative southern states, where the highest percent of people express a concern for "the value of life."  Murder of women by men is also higher in the conservative southern states.  Divorce is higher in the so-called Bible-Belt than in any other region of the US.  And the overall murder rate among US states?  Well, look for yourself (http://www.morganquitno.com/CR03samp1.pdf) ... the liberal areas of the US have far lower rates.  Liberals may not talk about personal responsibility or the value of life as much as their opponents, but they seem to do more about implementing it in their lives.

The video game Doom, which was played obsessively by the Columbine killers, does glorify killing via guns.  That is very different from responsibly using a firearm for sport or self defense.  While most people who play violent video games do not go on to kill, a small percent of them are so fixated on the games that they will go on to act out their programming. And Doom and the hundreds of other violent video games are not the darlings of the liberals.  

"Liberal morals" cause gun deaths?  Like the idea that we should be tolerant of other ethnicities and religions? Or the idea that parents and voluntary associations should teach religion, instead of the government?  Maybe the idea that government should help the handicapped, the poor, and the elderly is to blame?  Or the insiduous idea that everybody benefits from state funded universities?  

I really think that crime is more dependent on unemployment, untreated drug problems, insanity, and stupidity.  Not sure what we can do against stupidity, but ask yourself who has supported improving mental health programs, and who has opposed the "medicalization" of depression and other mental conditions that lead to suicide and murder?  "Culture" is an important but slippery factor, and having a strong, cohesive culture is pretty much independent of traditonal conservative/liberal ideology.  
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Hirvimaki on Jan 5th, 2004, 5:29pm
Amen.  It has become an easy out to polarize an issue.  The "I'm right (because I'm conservative/liberal) and you are wrong (because you're conservative/liberal)" is as productive and logical as paddling with a tablespoon.  And "declaring" the right or wrong of something does not make it so.  I would much rather live in a world where little is said about personal responsibility, but where it is actually put into practice than in a world where people stomp their feet and delcare the righteousness of it and yet do not pratice it.

The issue of gun control is not as finite as the media nor the respective lobbies try to make it seem.

That being said, if you'd like to look over my fine collection of firearms, you are welcome to do so.

Hirvimaki
Title: Ramblings of a Madman (Esteban)
Post by eyes_afire on Jan 5th, 2004, 6:45pm
Ya know, it's funny, because I always have a hard time trying to explain my political views to people.  And I usually don't get into these conversations because they often become so absurdly polarized.

I'm certainly no conservative.
Conservatives are scary.
I'm certainly no liberal.
Liberals are equally scary.

Case in point (Don't take this the wrong way Floridian.  I very much agree with 50% of what you said, and I don't much like some of the alarmist conservative stuff from FOX, and the conservatives desire to mix morality with government nauseates me.  I think you're rational enuff to understand my point without being offended.  I guess in posting this, I'm naively wishing beyond hope that either liberals or conservatives could clarify their confusing positions):


Quote:
While most people who play violent video games do not go on to kill, a small percent of them are so fixated on the games that they will go on to act out their programming. And Doom and the hundreds of other violent video games are not the darlings of the liberals.


(Getting a bit off topic) This kind of stuff drives libertarians (me?) crazy.  The video game is not to blame.  I'm sure that a small percentage of people who have watched Sesame Street go on to become murderers as well.  The logic just does not compute.  Violence is ancient.  I worry because:  first guns... then video games... then music... what next?  All are inanimate entities crafted by humans and are therefore inherently blameless.  The whole absurd 'Video game-Music-Columbine' contention reminds me of back in the day... when Right-Wing Baker and Left-Wing Gore teamed up to waste taxpayer money to put musicians before Congress.  This, of course is nothing new, before that it was the concern that the (mostly African-American) Blues musicians were corrupting the white middle-class youths with their devil music and bestowing upon them 'carnal urges'  ::) (LMMFAO, as if they didn't have any).  I wish politicians would focus more on the real issues like biology, psychology, and sociology.  Surely we will find more Columbine answers there, rather than looking toward art as the scapegoat.

If, as the left wingers contend, art (media) infects our brain so as to cause us to act anti-socially
or
as the right wingers contend, art (media) infects our brain so as to cause us to act anti-morally
then,
my friends, we are already DOOMed for self destruction.  Either put me in a plastic bubble or insert the 666 computer chip in my brain right now.  Art simply is not that powerful.  Art is not a 'cause' or an 'influence', it is a 'symptom' or a 'reaction'.  No, I don't need to be protected from art for my own good.  Personal responsibility is the key.  I wish more politicians understood that.  How much ($$$) is the U.S. Constitution on sale for?

LOL, one of my favorites is this tongue-in-cheek tune (We Hate Everyone) by Type O Negative:

"We don't care what you think
Lies and slander in vain try to shame us
Riots, protests, violence just makes us famous
TV interviews, free publicity
Increase record sales dramatically"

When we as a nation try to outlaw satire (it's been tried before), we are in deep shit.

Personally, I have no desire to tame all of the 'animal in me'.  Life is 'warts and all'.  Reminds me of that movie... what's it called?... I think... Demolition Man (?).   ;;D

--- Esteban,... the anti-social, anti-moral, anti-biotic eater (ugh), anti-everything (LMMFAO), 666 computer chip wearing, evil twin alter ego of Steve... from the Bizarro World.  Just kidding... kinda.  Ahhh, there's nothing like good ole devil music.
[smiley=headbanger.gif]
Up the horns!  (LMAO)
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Prense on Jan 5th, 2004, 6:48pm
Interesting article...makes me want to go buy a new gun.

Chris
Title: Re: Ramblings of a Madman (Esteban)
Post by Prense on Jan 5th, 2004, 6:50pm

on 01/05/04 at 18:45:24, eyes_afire wrote:
first guns... then video games... then music... what next?


...cell phones

;;D
Title: Re: Ramblings of a Madman (Esteban)
Post by jonny on Jan 5th, 2004, 6:51pm

on 01/05/04 at 18:45:24, eyes_afire wrote:
 Ahhh, there's nothing like good ole devil music.
[smiley=headbanger.gif]
Up the horns!  (LMAO)


And my favorite line from Type O (Live)

"Thanks for the memories you FATASS BITCH"

LMMFAO, Steve ;;D


[smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif]...........jonny
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Charlie on Jan 5th, 2004, 7:06pm
I’m not a gun freak nor do I encourage anyone to buy one. I just grew up in a family who had them. Guns for us were not thought of as personal protection. They’re way overrated by TV and film as a solution. It’s unreliable, difficult not at all antiseptic or simple. Those who are well-trained or ex-military, know this but video games kids do not. It’s a mess because this alone encourages more gun purchases by people who have no business with them as well as those who see a danger. A catch 22.

Charlie
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Jackie on Jan 5th, 2004, 7:20pm
My take on all this.....

I have guns.
I respect guns.
I love to shoot guns....especially at skeet targets.
I love to look at and even love to clean my guns.

Gun ownership is our right and I'm betting it always will be.  The NRA (not that I'm always a big fan of theirs) is a STRONG lobby and they will protect the gun owners rights.

It's not the guns that are dangerous....it's the person behind them.  If they are determined to cause harm they will find a way to do it.....gun or not.  If gun ownership becomes illegal the criminals will be the only people still packing.

Jacks 8)
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by eyes_afire on Jan 5th, 2004, 7:24pm

Quote:
...cell phones

 


No!  Not those!

Well, we'll have to make sure they're banned BEFORE video games since I don't own one, LOL.

--- Esteban
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Hirvimaki on Jan 5th, 2004, 7:36pm
Esteban,

The quote I think you are alluding to is in fact from Demolition Man.  Edgar Friendly says:

"You see, according to Cockteau's plan, I'm the enemy because I like to think. I like to read, I'm into freedom of speech and freedom of choice. I'm the kind of guy that could sit in a greasy spoon and wonder gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs or the side order of gravy fries. I want high cholesterol. I would eat bacon and butter and buckets of cheese. OK. I want to smoke Cuban cigars the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section. I want to run through the streets naked with green Jell-O all over my body reading Playboy magazine. Why, because I might suddenly feel the need to. OK? Pal, I've seen the future. Know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his pajamas, sipping a banana-broccoli shake, singing 'I'm an Oscar Meyer wiener'. You live up top, you live how he wants. Your other choice: come down here and maybe starve to death."

Great quote.  Silly movie.

Hirvimaki
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by pubgirl on Jan 5th, 2004, 7:40pm
Gun Ignoramus question here.

Is an SKS 7.62 mm a very serious piece of weaponry?


Wendy
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by jonny on Jan 5th, 2004, 7:44pm
Passed by Congress September 25, 1789. Ratified December 15, 1791.

AMENDMENT II

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

...................jonny  [smiley=bigguns.gif]
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by floridian on Jan 5th, 2004, 7:45pm
The SKS is a decent rifle. It is more accurate than an AK-47 (fires the same cartridge). It was not designed to be a full-auto weapon, and most countries replaced their SKS's with AKs.   The new Woody Allen movie has an SKS in its plot.
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by pubgirl on Jan 5th, 2004, 7:49pm
Cheers, just checking because someone on here loves theirs so much they've got a full page photo of it on their website.

Not going to argue with them then!

Wendy

P.S. Did a quick search after I asked the question as I know nowt about guns and it came up as the main gun the VC used. Yuk!
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Charlie on Jan 5th, 2004, 11:23pm
I love the way guns brings out the best or worst in us.

For those who think this is uncomfortable, try these guys:

http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/sword.cgi

There's more than one kids.

Grease gun Charlie
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by Renee on Jan 5th, 2004, 11:58pm
Being raised in somewhat rural Texas and still residing in "the sticks" outside of Dallas, I was raised around guns and even given a gun by my father when I was a child.  It was a monsterous b.b. gun that I thought could protect me from anything.  Well, one day that anything came along and my monsterous b.b. gun could not take out the copperhead snake that was striking at me.

I also baled hay and have many times picked up a bale of hay to find a cottonmouth water mocassin still alive but caught up in the bale.

I've also always been raised around cattle and horses and have had to take the desperate route of taking a loved animal out of misery.  It is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do as it hurts me SO much but for the love of my animal I opt for them to no longer hurt if there is no chance of recovery.

I carry concealed, I pack in my truck, I have one by my bed, a couple hidden here and there and a shotgun in my hallway on the wall...all are loaded with shell in chamber.  I'm also have a concealed handgun permit.

Moral of my post:
If you choose to play, know the rules, know the dangers and respect the piece.  It can save your life but it can also take your life or the life of others.

Do I clean my pieces during a CH...hell no.  I don't even go near them.  That would be just too easy and had I not found my CH family here, I honestly think my willpower during a CH would have fled and I would not be here today.

Enough rambling....Thank you my CH family for being there for me!

renee (aka txcowgirl)
Title: Re: Why People Fear Guns (Anothe Non CH but excell
Post by 12gagueblast on Jan 6th, 2004, 1:39am
I bow to you charlie.  Great link.  i have always wanted a sten or an MP 40 cant part with the cash yet tho.  


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