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Title: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:06am Your individual liberties are taken away. It is like very slowly turning up the heat to cook a live frog. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL As the left marches us toward the all encompassing nanny state of gov. reliance; they finger point to others that "shred" the Constitution. Two wrongs don't make a right...or a left! Will there be anything left of the USA in 50 years? Will there be any personal choice left in life or will it be an ant colony? -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by thomas on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:10am Gotta get as many of those kiddos into those publicly funded indoctrination centers, don't ya know? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:21am on 03/07/08 at 10:10:32, thomas wrote:
Sadly that is what the US educational system has become. From Kindergarden to the universities. You had best repeat the mantra if you want a good grade! Non union? Don't expect a job teaching in the public school system. LOL. That court ruling is some pretty scary shit if you ask me. -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Melissa on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:34am Oh man, that is not good at all. :( |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by deltadarlin on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:46am If this were any other state besides California, I'd be real worried (no slight to anyone living there). In Louisiana, homeschooling is fairly big and there are already regulations in place that apply to homeschooling. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:48am This is, plain and simple, union protectionism. When the state stands behind these kinds of tactics, it becomes, by definition, state sponsored protectionism. Death by a thousand cuts, people. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by nani on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:56am Not all parents make good teachers. Sometimes, homeschooling is inadequate. I know of a family of 12 kids, whose entire curriculum is based almost 100% on the bible. I think the states should have some kind of oversight on these "schools" so the kids have a shot at a well rounded education. Homeschooling isn't a bad thing... but I'm not sure it's the best thing. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:58am on 03/07/08 at 10:56:08, nani wrote:
Respectfully disagree. Parents should have the final say in how their children are educated. The state is not qualified to make that choice for me. This is about individual liberty. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by LeLimey on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:59am Just in the interest of debate and following on from Nani's point about the bible - how would that affect communities like the Amish? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by nani on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:08am I think the Bible (or any other holy books) have a place in religious education (which, BTW, I think should be taught in the public schools, covering ALL religions). The Bible as world history is not really a good thing, IMO. Brew, I don't really disagree... but I think there should some oversight as to what the child is being taught. ie: math, science, language arts, etc. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:14am on 03/07/08 at 11:08:23, nani wrote:
Parents should be able to determine what is a good thing and what is not for their children. Educational content does not cross over into the realm of child abuse. It is a matter of them choosing what's right for their children. The state should have no say in that as it is not mentioned in the Constitution. Call me old school. I happen to be a strict constructionist when it comes to the separation of government activity and my personal choice. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by PollyPocket on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:15am from the article: "A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue. ummm hello???!!! reading?? writing?? 'rithmatic??? science???? history???? wtf?????? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by LeLimey on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:17am I agree about RE - it's only by learning about all religions and cultures we will combat stupid prejudice. My kids really enjoy that and I have to admit, I do too. I wasn't meaning people SHOULD be able to give their kids such a limited education, rather that they shouldn't but from what I know of the Amish they school their kids themselves (albeit in a schoolroom) with a very limited curriculum and a much lower leaving age of 14. Is that fair? If one religious group can decide how to educate their kids to completely different standards to the rest of the country why shouldn't the family Nani was talkin about be able to do the same? Why should the rights of larger groups outweigh the rights and choices of individual families? I think what I'm asking is where do we draw the line and how should we decide that? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by nani on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:20am When do my rights as a parent interfere with my child's rights? Not giving a child a good education is a violation of their rights, IMO. Not to say that all homeschools are inadequate...but some are. For example: If I choose to let my child die to preserve my rights to religious freedom, have I not infringed on the child's right to medical care? I guess a bigger issue is "Do children have any liberty?" |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by thomas on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:23am on 03/07/08 at 11:20:16, nani wrote:
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:25am on 03/07/08 at 11:08:23, nani wrote:
I agree with you Nani. The public school system should teach about different religions as a means of broadining a childs horrizon. Any further specific religous education can be done at the parents expense and not the taxpayer. I think that most states do have some means of checks on home schooling and if a child is to be home schooled they have to meet minimum requirments of education. If a parent wishes to home school and fails to meet minimum requirments than I think the state does have a right to see that the child is provided with the right material. The state does not have the right to contest home schooling unless the state can prove the child is being denied a good education. The way I see it now, the state is trying to make the parent prove need for home schooling. With the Amish, they do have requirments with respect to math, english, spelling...etc. I know that in NY, the Amish school house down the road from me will higher a substitute teacher if the regular teacher is sick. This is to satisfy state law in education. -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:29am Where in the Constitution is a "good education" something that is guaranteed as a right? Especially a state-sponsored education? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:41am on 03/07/08 at 11:29:02, brewcrew wrote:
It dosn't Brew. I think you would have a hard time arguing the founding fathers were against education or the opportunity for an education seeing as they all could read and wright. Perhaps it was included in the Liberty part of the constitution. ;) -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Gena on Mar 7th, 2008, 12:08pm The last part of the article says Heimov said her organization's chief concern was not the quality of the children's education, but their "being in a place daily where they would be observed by people who had a duty to ensure their ongoing safety." ::) I might be mistaken but is that not what HOME is!!! [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 7th, 2008, 1:30pm I think you're mistaken, Gena. The state views parents as the enemy, the ones who actually inflict harm on the children. The children must be protected from the enemy, and we, the state, know what's best for them. What a prime example of bureacracy run amok. There might be a fraction of a percentage of parents who use their kids as punching bags, so the schools have to become the place where ALL parents must hand over their rights. It's all about the lowest common denominator. C'mon - you went to a public school, didn't you? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Sandy_C on Mar 7th, 2008, 1:36pm "California courts have held that ... parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children," Justice H. Walter Croskey said in the 3-0 ruling issued on Feb. 28. "Parents have a legal duty to see to their children's schooling under the provisions of these laws." Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said. "A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue WRONG! Parents have a DUTY to educate their children, whether it's in public school, private school, or homeschool. Parents, in my opinion have the RIGHT to determine which method is best for their child, not the state. The role of public education is not to teach citizenship, patriotism, and loyalty to the state and nation. What the He** is this, the old Soviet Union? Public education is to teach children to read, do math, history, geography, languages, the arts, sports - to teach them to become well-rounded citizens, who eventually can be productive in society rather than a drain on society. I'm not surprised the teachers union is all for this wonderful new ruling. Don't get me wrong, there are many excellent teachers who really care that their students learn the necessities to become contributing citizens. But, as in my own local school district, there are too many inadequate teachers, who teach the students only enough to pass the federal and state mandated tests, because their salaries are dependent on pass/fail rates. This is not completely the teacher's fault. This is the fault of our federal and state educational system who mandates the "No Child Left Behind" program. Our public schools are atrocious. And, I got news for ya, they aren't teaching " citizenship, patriotism, and loyalty to the state and nation". They teach to the lowest ability, and teach only to pass a test. This is why no child is being left behind. My cousin, mother of five, has homeschooled all of her children since day one, all the way through high school. I find it interesting that when her oldest son took the SAT, ACT, and a myriad of other tests required of him, because is WAS homeschooled, his scores were astronomical, and he received a full four year scholarship to college. My cousin is not and never has been an accredited teacher, yet her children are intelligent, smart, active in the community, active in the church, active in sports, artistic, and can speak a second language quite well. This ruling sucks! I don't know who these judges are, but with this ruling, they are contributing to the dumbing down of our children. Do we, as parents, not have the DUTY, the OBLIGATION, and the RIGHT to give our children the best education possible? Well, they aren't getting it in public schools any longer, so until the government fixes our education system, parents have the final say. Off soap box now! Damn, I'm pissed! Sandy |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 1:50pm on 03/07/08 at 13:36:42, Sandy_C wrote:
No Sandy, it is the new Americian Democratic Socialists! A.K.A Comunisim 2.00.8 It isn't Democrat 1.0, or Liberal 1.01 or even progressive 2.0. Dumb down the kids, get more and more of the population either living off handouts or in government jobs which are controlled by the unions and after you reach a critical mass...........you have a socalistic society that is fully dependent on government. Home schooling undermines this....God forbid you have a group of people that are well educated and self sufficient. That would cause problems! -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Sandy_C on Mar 7th, 2008, 2:27pm Paul, :-* You and I are on the same page. The public educational system in this country is dumbing down our children. Why not just let the country take care of everything for us, how our children are educated, our health care, our job opportunities, the quality of our air and water, how much income we are allowed to earn? Why not just hand the entire country over to China, Japan, or some middle Eastern country right now and be done with it? This is where we're heading, and if the American citizen does not wake up, and realize that the more we allow our government to do "for us", the less we have. Sorry, It's not a good day, I'm sick, I'm hurting (not from CH), and now I'm angry! Sandy |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Jonny on Mar 7th, 2008, 7:09pm Hmmmmmm! http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=45c_1204913560 |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by fubar on Mar 7th, 2008, 7:26pm Yet another reason I will not miss California. Do you know in California *parents* are the true enemy of children? In California, it is not legal to spank your kid. It is not legal to *yell* at your kid. Seriously. If your kid runs away in California, they haven't broken the law. It is illegal in California to lock your children in the house or in their room. I could go on and on. This state sucks. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Mosaicwench on Mar 7th, 2008, 7:43pm on 03/07/08 at 11:20:16, nani wrote:
I would guess there are more public schools in this country that are giving "inadequate" education than are homeschooling families. We too, know a family with 13 children who are all homeschooled in this area's version of the Baptist Bible. Do I think they are receiving an adequate education? Yes, they can all read and write and cipher. Do I think it prepares them for the Socialist world at large, no. They are insulated and not given the big historical/modern picture of the world. They are taught one point of view (Baptist) and are left to muddle through other points of view when they hit adulthood and get out in the world. They do, however have strong religious, political, and familial values that were taught at home. That's not a bad thing. HOWEVER, I find this NO DIFFERENT than what the State public schools are attempting to do. They teach one point of view and diversity that takes the form of "if you don't think like we teach you to think then you are WRONG". The curricula are so watered down with nonsensical things that I don't believe public school children are getting the education they deserve. I believe parents have the responsibility to choose the best education for their child(ren). I believe the state and the feds should stay out of that choice and be reminded regularly that parents are guardians of children, not the state. While I may not agree with all aspects of religion-based homeschooling, I will fight to the death their right to choose what's right for their children. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Annette on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:00pm on 03/07/08 at 13:50:27, Paul98 wrote:
I experienced this first hand for several years living under the Communist Govern in Saigon after the Vietnam war. Thank God my parents were educated enough to recognise the downfall. They risked everything including death to get us out of there. On the subject of home/school education for children, ask any Asian parents and they will tell you they do both. They have learnt that the public and even private schooling system is not enough. Almost all Asian kids get taught extra at home. The parents check to see what is taught at school, then teach them whatever else they thought the children should know at home. Being highly educated is the highest goal in most Asian societies. Nothing is more respected or valued. The only problem with that is some kids get pushed too much, you have to be top of the class or else. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by M.R. on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:13pm Because I have never bred, I will almost stay out of this thread, but as a product of the public school system, I feel real strongly that the teachers union has to go. Or at least get spanked down to reality. Who else gets a guarantee of a job because you managed not to get fired for 5 years, no matter how bad you fuck up. The Mike that is pretty sure my parents could of taugh me more than the lame public school. Edited to add, my parents didn't use the school for a babysitter either. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:20pm on 03/07/08 at 20:13:30, M.R. wrote:
In no other field do the many members and leaders expect to be treated like professionals, yet employ tactics like the scummiest of the trade unions. If you want to be treated like a professional, start acting like one. One of the bigger problems is that most teachers' union members I talk to don't agree with the actions of their union. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:29pm Annette, I think many in the US try and suppliment their childrens education....or they used to. Not so much anymore. Some of the funky stuff that is tried in the schools these days is beyond comprehension. It is no longer sit down, shut up and learn it is "fuzzy math" I'm ok your ok 101 and a whole bunch of experimentation on YOUR children at the expense of their meaningful education. Ebonics? Teach the children proper English for crying out loud. They stand a better chance of getting a good job. In the last 20 years I have seen many 1 room school houses both in the US (Amish) and in the Bahamas. EVERY ONE produced children that could read, write, do math and communicate better than what came out of the public school systems. Very basic supplies were all that were needed. No puters, puter labs, over head projecters, no swimming pools, no astroturf covered playing fields, no A/C! The school system in the US is pure bullshit fed to the taxpayers. -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:35pm on 03/07/08 at 20:13:30, M.R. wrote:
BINGO! I feel it is THE sole cause of the downfall of the Americian educational system! The union has become an indoctrination system into democratic socialism. -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Jonny on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:39pm on 03/07/08 at 20:20:47, brewcrew wrote:
Do you mean the union asking for a raise for only working 180 days and summers off?....I doubt that!....LOL |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:41pm Maybe just the ones I talk to. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:51pm on 03/07/08 at 20:41:31, brewcrew wrote:
I could see that Brew. The mindset of midwest Americia is a lot different than the East and Left coast. I think a lot of teachers realize they better go along with the union even though they disagree with some of it. As I said, try and get a job teaching and not be in the union...or let it be known that you disagree with the union. See how long you will be teaching! -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Kevin_M on Mar 7th, 2008, 8:51pm on 03/07/08 at 19:43:46, Mosaicwench wrote:
What seems important is that parents be the guardian of their children's education, in this case. If a parent feels the schools are not doing a sufficient job of this, options should be available, to maintain the "compulsary education" statute. from the article link: Quote:
Does the state have any recourse if this is the case? Does the right to homeschool take precedence over poor homeschooling? By the same token, does a parent have recourse if the schooling is poor from the state? CA says the options are: Quote:
This would seem to disclude the choice of a parent to educate their child themselves at home. Teaching is a full time job. If a parent homeschools their children themselves, and the state says the education is not sufficient by testing standards, can or should the state step in? In the case stated by the article, here again: Quote:
What is that judge's responsibility if the parents are not being the guardian of their children's education? I don't have children, so can't accurately look at this but parent's or all opinons would be welcome. I can only say I am for education opportunity for children. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Jonny on Mar 7th, 2008, 9:19pm on 03/07/08 at 20:51:16, Paul98 wrote:
Whats to get along with? They make big bucks for working 180 days and they have the summer off to work a second job! Teachers LOVE the union! Plus, some of them are raping kids.....Whats not to love? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 7th, 2008, 9:32pm on 03/07/08 at 21:19:04, Jonny wrote:
I have met (on rare occasion) a few teachers that do not agree with the way things are tought in schools. They know to keep their mouths shut where they work. They seem to like the pay and benifits more than dislike other things. ;) What a monopoly the unions have. Any buisness in the US tried that and they would be behind bars. LOL -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Jonny on Mar 7th, 2008, 9:37pm on 03/07/08 at 21:32:50, Paul98 wrote:
They are TEACHERS!.....what are they teaching? Get along to go along? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Mosaicwench on Mar 7th, 2008, 11:20pm on 03/07/08 at 21:19:04, Jonny wrote:
Not all, Jonny, not all. The Wisconsin Teacher's Union sued a virtual school (and it's Union dues paying teachers[paying union dues is mandatory - attendance at their functions is optional here])) and tried to shut it down. What person in their right mind would love a Union that was trying to sue them out of a job? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Kevin_M on Mar 8th, 2008, 9:31am LA Times expanded a bit on "poorly educated". Quote:
Quote:
It is unusual Sunland does not say they hold an accreditation from WASC, which accredits religious schools also, or have both accreditations. While appearing to comply with the state statute by enrolling the children in a private school, this school's methods seem to not qualify. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Rosybabe on Mar 8th, 2008, 2:49pm on 03/07/08 at 11:15:53, PollyPocket wrote:
mmmm...interesting...My neighbors are 11, 13 and 17 and do not know the lyrics of the national anthem!!! they were amazed when they hear my daughter singing and my daughter is homeschool.... |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Charlie on Mar 8th, 2008, 9:05pm It's a moronic ruling of course. Silly. I've never been a proponent of home schooling. Some of the best stuff is learned by social contact...good and bad. It's life. It gets mixed up with political Christians that are largely responsible its recent comeback. Darwin is the bugaboo of course. On the other hand, if you really want a good education go to a Catholic school. Around here, some non-Catholics pay to send their kids. I'm certainly not religious but I admire Catholics. The quality is usually better and most of the educators expose kids to the real world. They are consistent too and know how to have fun. The thing is that they are a lot less gloomy than the more vocal evangelicals. There is another edge to this as well. My preacher friend says that creationism "science" should be taught along with Darwin to give the kids a choice. That sounds good but it's brand new and has nothing to do with choice. It's religious teaching. Go to church if you want to pay attention to people that tell us to do what they say Jesus would do. It's fine with me but settle down. Life is too short. Continuing: Those longed-for years of the 1950s, where everything was so nice, was a time when church and state separation was accepted with little debate. We all got along just fine and from my experience we had a lot more fun. We need to stop trying to legislate perfection. It ain't gonna work. Too many laws and mandatory sentencing. Common sense has been replaced with procedure. If your dog is barking, you go to jail until the paperwork is done. Cops aren't allowed to use their heads in many cases and it makes things more dangerous for them. It's not the left, by the way that has been shredding the Constitution with Patriot Acts, torture, and wiretapping. Wiretapping has always been there but don't make it easy. A statute would make it too simple and will lead to an America that we really don't want to deal with. Not good. It's the Democrats that so far have told Bush to go to hell on this for now. Good. Charlie |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 8th, 2008, 9:22pm Charlie, I know you are very committed to your convictions - it's part of what I love about you. But what do those last two paragraphs have to do with the topic? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Charlie on Mar 8th, 2008, 9:29pm LOL. Not much by the looks of it. I get wound up. :o Charlie |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 8th, 2008, 9:34pm Well, good for you, brutha! |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Kevin_M on Mar 9th, 2008, 8:00am The law was written in '53, it looks like Charlie is addressing the original post of the thread in his last two paragraphs. Quote:
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by BarbaraD on Mar 9th, 2008, 9:10am Charilie and I are both products of public schools in the 50s and early 60s when "common sense" ruled and we were "taught" basics and learned to "think" for ourselves. Actually we were "educated". When we graduated from high school (actually grade school) we knew capitals of all the states, history, english, math, reading and could write pretty well. We knew enough of politics to know who our president was and how the political system worked on the state, federal and local level. (We couldn't wait to be able to vote and we had to wait until we were 21). We could discuss current events with out parents, read the newspapers, watch the "nightly" news (we didn't have 24 hour news back then) and were ready to get a job in the real world. And, as Charlie said, we had "fun". We also had ONE teacher to a classroom - no aides back in those days. I'd put the education we received up against anything that's coming out of pubic schools today. Our school ignored Ms Ohare and still said prayers and I can't see it hurt anyone. I spent a year in a private Catholic boarding school and that was good also. I was "delighted" to get back to pubic school. Those nuns were TUFF. But until WE get our pubic school systems turned around and get some common sense back in the system, we're NOT going to be keeping up with the rest of the world in education. We're leaving MOST of our kids behind. If home schooling is the answer then I'm all for it. The public schools sure aren't doing the job anymore. Hugs BD |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 9th, 2008, 11:00am on 03/08/08 at 21:05:38, Charlie wrote:
Kudos to your post Charlie! I take an exeption, with respec to the last paragraph of your post. No it not the left that sherds the Constitution....It is both sides of the isle. One side does it directly, the other does it indirectly. It is an isidously increeping of legislation that chips away at YOUR freedom. The republicans want wiretaping invade your private "space" Democrats want to dictate through legislation how you live, how your "earnings" are spent, how your children are educated.............ALL LEGAL......... I ask you one thing Charlie.....can you go out in your back yard and shoot a gun without you being worried about the police showing up? Direct blame goes to the liberals! Period! Drive a car with sealt belt off.........Again, Liberals......Taxes.........Liberals..........Spank a child...........Liberals...free health care? Who do you think pays for it? ALL of it? The poor? the rich? Or is it you and me the common tax payer? Despite what ALL of what is said my friend, the bulk of what is paid for in the system comes from the "middle earner" The top of the bell curve comes from you and me. Charlie, look how the tax assetments on the forms are set up. Biggest chunk is with the mid class............. That is where the bucks come from. This is where the the pol's extract the dollars from. Not the rich, not the poor, ...........YOU AND ME! That is where the mony is. The politicans exploit this. Bottom line.....life is a fight. You against the world. -P. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Langa on Mar 9th, 2008, 11:25am Interesting thread. My sister's kids went from a Christian school to public school in the inner city...even they admit it's a joke. The 7th graders are getting 5th and 4th grade material. Crystal had to leave to another school to get her GED because her class was so rowdy and the teacher didn't care so she just sat and read a book until class was over???? WTF??? So basically when my nephew graduates high school he'll be graduating with 9-10th grade education. He's going to have a rude awakening once he gets to college. Anyway, if and when I have a child - it will be Christian/Catholic school, though i'm not a catholic I do know they have one of the best education systems around and they don't dumb down the material either. Just my 2 cents. Langa |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Paul98 on Mar 9th, 2008, 11:58am on 03/09/08 at 11:25:02, Langa wrote:
Ya know what Mooch? Your Mom God bless her, did the right thing! As I have said to you in e-mails and PM's She has given you and yours....the right direction. My respect for you is far beyond anything I can put in words. To the little Miss. I met in Pokeespie, NY.........Did you think I would have anything but a great big hug for you? -P. Unique and special person Mooch! Don't forget it! |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Langa on Mar 9th, 2008, 12:17pm on 03/09/08 at 11:58:23, Paul98 wrote:
Paul that was so absolutely sweet and unexpected. Always gotta get a girl all emotional. Thank you so much for such kind words, really. I don't know about being unique, but I do try to do the best I can with what I have. Helen is a very lucky lady - and vice versa. The feelings, as you know, are mutual. And yes I do expect a big hug from you, but be careful with my hug back - i'm working out now...lol Love, Maria |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Charlie on Mar 10th, 2008, 8:29am Barb: I could vote in NYS when I was turned 18. It used to be that you were old enough to die for your country but not old enough to vote. That was changed in the 60s here. Paul: Quote:
Well, I don't want my neighbors running around their 90 foot lots banging away at rabbits or woodchucks. My idiot neighbor set up a bird feeder so she could shoot our many fine feathered visitors (not just PITA birds) with her Daisy. She quit that after she put a hole in my kitchen window. Other than her bloodthirsty attidude toward boids, she's okay....odd but ok. Cops used to warn you about something like this rather than drag you away though. I'm sure that I'd make the paper today if I shot even a .22 Charlie http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/shoot.gif |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by superhawk2300 on Mar 10th, 2008, 9:25am Charlie - right, now if you could be forced via draft to die for your country and legally drink a beer we'd be making some real progress........ Anyways, on the schooling as far as if it is a parent's rights issue or not, I thought of this little point. Many states require it's constituants to meet certain requiremnts before they are allowed to use public roadways (roadways created and maintained with public money I might add) like pass written and performance tests, have certain vision, and not break the law a certain amount of times while driving, and have a certain level of auto-insurance before they will be permitted to drive, amoung other things. How is it that any idiot can have and raise children without proving any sort of responibility? Is driving a car a potential greater detriment to public well being than raising children? For arguemnts sake lets pretend I am an american citizen who for whatever reason turns into a radical muslim militant and I am teaching my children than I should kill anyone white who does not give me my way, and that is pretty much it. It is in class form, adn I give tests to be sure they are learning, and it covers an entire school day's worth of teaching. So do parents have the right to teach their children anything they want or do the parents have an obligation to make sure the child gets an education that at the least, will not contribute to the child becoming a burden on society (though I'd hope for a contribution at some point, thugh today that looks like it might be a tall order to fill). It is dicey and either "side" could claim many of the same points as support for their beliefs...... Of course if everyone's kids were as smart and cute as mine they would want to help them grow as much as possible ;;D |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Charlie on Mar 10th, 2008, 10:03am Of course I learned to shoot when I was about 12. As for the draft. Good idea. There is also a theory that makes some sense to me that it's healthy for a democracy to have some soldiers that aren't all that crazy to be in the army. The theory being that this kind of army will be a little more at the service of the electorate than the leaders, should they get a little too comfortable with their own importance. Charile |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Callico on Mar 10th, 2008, 12:58pm Superhawk2300 wrote: "Anyways, on the schooling as far as if it is a parent's rights issue or not, I thought of this little point. Many states require it's constituants to meet certain requiremnts before they are allowed to use public roadways (roadways created and maintained with public money I might add) like pass written and performance tests, have certain vision, and not break the law a certain amount of times while driving, and have a certain level of auto-insurance before they will be permitted to drive, amoung other things. How is it that any idiot can have and raise children without proving any sort of responibility? " I tried hard to stay out of this one, but this I cannot pass up. The reason "any idiot can have and raise children without roving any sort of responsibility" is because the FAMILY, and the PERSON came before the GOVERNMENT!!! The government of the United States of America was created OF the people, BY the people, and FOR the people, not the other way around. BTW, that quotation of Lincoln's, "Of the people, by the people, and for the people" was in turn a quotation by him, although not attributed in the Gettysburg Address. He took the quotation from a longer statement by John Wycliffe on the flyleaf of the Wycliffe Translation of the Holy Bible in the English Language that said, " This book one day will make possible a government Of the people, For the people, and By the people." For his translation of the scriptures into the common language of the English people Wycliffe was burned at the stake, and his ashes scattered in the Thames river. Nani, as much as I love and respect you, I have to disagree with your assertion that not all parents make good teachers, hence we should leave it to the professional. Just before we pulled our children out of the state schools we got a letter from the principle telling of the wonderful job they were doing in education that included 28 misspelled words, and a number of grammatical errors that even I noticed. Jerry edited to attribute the quote at the beginning. For some reason my quote button didn't work properly. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Kevin_M on Mar 10th, 2008, 1:35pm on 03/10/08 at 12:58:39, Callico wrote:
She did mention that "not all parents make good teachers". on 03/07/08 at 10:56:08, nani wrote:
Quote:
I don't see how this disagrees with nani's quote. If state schools can be inadequate, is it not possible some home schooling may be inadequate, too? That seems to be mentioned in the case from the article. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by brewcrew on Mar 10th, 2008, 1:49pm And you know what? Some kids are ALWAYS going to fall through the cracks, no matter what environment they're in. Dumbing down the public schools won't eliminate this, though many educators seem to think it will. And neither will outlawing home schooling. When are we going to accept that we live in an imperfect world? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Callico on Mar 10th, 2008, 1:52pm I fully agree that not all homeschooling is adequate, but from the results that I have seen, it is far superior to anything put out by the public schools in our area. It is easy to point to the few who are not doing their children well and try to portray that as the norm. By and large those who are homeschooled tend to be more well rounded than those who are kept in an age based class. They learn to converse on an adult level much more quickly and readily than do those who are limited to interacting primarily with peers. Among those tested by the Iowa Basic Skills test, one of the primary standardized tests used in primary and secondary grades, homeschooled children test one to two grades above public school educated children as a norm. Many universities give preference to homeshooled students. Harvard, for instance, gives a 20 point bonus on its entrance scoring for acceptance. Jerry |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by Kevin_M on Mar 10th, 2008, 2:09pm on 03/10/08 at 13:52:12, Callico wrote:
That is what she said. Quote:
No one was of that opinion in the thread. |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by superhawk2300 on Mar 11th, 2008, 12:45am Hey Jerry, I did not say I was on one side or the other, only that this was a dicey issue, to be clear. But I think we agree on a lot more than you think, as I am a proponent of "little government". But that is why I posted stuff that both sides could use - this is a sticky wicket. For me the easy bottom line is that my rights stop when I start to violate your rights and vice-versa. Quote" The reason "any idiot can have and raise children without roving any sort of responsibility" is because the FAMILY, and the PERSON came before the GOVERNMENT!!! The government of the United States of America was created OF the people, BY the people, and FOR the people, not the other way around. " One, I am sick of being taxed to death. A good portion of what Middle America pays in taxes goes to different "relief" programs. What would be a "relief" to me is if people who cannot afford to pay for children would stop having them. These groups of people I do not consider "FAMILY" (ies). It is hurting families of tax paying citizens, and it is hurting our economy on a horrific scale, which in turn, hurts our national security. I also do not consider this government "for the people". It is a nice thought but not reality. This government will do what it wants, when it wants, with whoever it wants, and all that that implies. As far as raising children, I'm NOT teaching my children: 1. To spend all of their savings and then when that runs out use credit like it has no ceiling. 2. To litter 3. To hit others to get your way. 4. To eavesdrop. 5. To lie. Foremost about why you hit others and eavesdrop. The US gov is doing all of these, so I agree they are not the best candidate to determine what children should be learning or not learning. But that just gets us back to square one. We all know about the right to bear arms. Should every single US citizen have the right to bear children? |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by superhawk2300 on Mar 11th, 2008, 12:50am Paul: Quote: I ask you one thing Charlie.....can you go out in your back yard and shoot a gun without you being worried about the police showing up? I know a lot of neighboorhoods that wish like hell the cops would show up when there are guns being shot but there is no chance of it! |
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Title: Re: One by one... Post by midwestbeth on Mar 12th, 2008, 1:37pm http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337014,00.html |
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