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Title: School question???????? Post by BarbaraD on Mar 6th, 2008, 12:23pm Got a call from my son last night. Now our little Caleb is in kindergarten in Shreveport. Apparently they have to pass a TEST to get out of kindergarten. Buddy read me the criteria they have to pass to get out. I'm wondering if this is "normal" for kindergarten. They have to be able to read a book. Tell a sentence from a word. Read and comprehend a story. Know squares, triangles, rectangles and be able to draw them. Know how to add and subtract. Know all their numbers and be able to write their full name. And then there were some more things on the list that I have no idea what they were talking about (and I have a college degree). Is this a normal thing. What ever happened to learning to get along with other kids, maybe learning to write your name, recite your abc's and not pull Mary's pigtails? And they're only allowed 15 minutes of OUTSIDE activities a WEEK! These are 5 and 6 year olds KIDS - not brain childs... why do they need to learn all this stuff so early? Are we not pushing our kids too fast? I'm just trying to find out if this is normal protocol for schools or if this school is going overboard. Hugs BD |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by DennisM1045 on Mar 6th, 2008, 1:12pm Here's my 2 cents... Most school systems these days do have criteria they use when deciding if they should pass a kid along to the next grade. Catching a child that needs some extra time is easiest done in Kindergarten. It only gets harder emotionally for the child as the years go by. The list you gave sounds about right for this area too. It is based on what then need to know when entering the 1st grade. The entire Kindergarten year should be devoted to learning these skills. If not than its just state paid for childcare and not school. If little Caleb is ready he'll pass. If not, then he'll get an extra year in K. It's only one year. Don't make too big a deal out of it. That'll only hurt his self confidence. As for pushing them too fast, we're not. When you compare our school system performance to other developed nations we don't come out looking good. This is less true with the younger kids than in HS. -Dennis- |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Kevin_M on Mar 6th, 2008, 1:29pm According to a trainer here in HR, if he passes the requirements and gets his diploma, he'll exceed a few resumes and interviews she's encountered. |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by deltadarlin on Mar 6th, 2008, 2:13pm Barbara, That's about right. Now, the 15 minutes of outside activities a week doesn't sound right. When I was subbing at our local elementary, they got recess every day! Hmmm, no wonder we're generating a whole new generation of obese adults! Carolyn |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by BarbaraD on Mar 6th, 2008, 4:34pm I can see LEARNING the skills (I'm all for learning - don't get me wrong on that one) but TESTING them on them in Kindergarten? (I'm against the testing stuff totally - the teacher SHOULD do the testing and SHOULD know who needs HELP!). Guess I was just "one of those 'kind' of mothers when mine was that age, but I was "at" school and KNEW what he was learning and where he needed help. Today parents (my kids included) e-mail teachers and depend on "notes' to find out WHEN their kids are having problems. I'm appalled at the "no recess" in kindergarten. Those kids NEED to get OUT and exercise and get some energy OUT! I've told the kids to raise sand about it, but they "think" the education system knows best. B$!!! I called the grade school principal here locally today and talked to him about it and he assured me that at HIS school the K-kids had TWO recesses a day and were encouraged to get their energy worked out on the playground so they could sit in the classroom and be good boys and girls. And they don't TEST in TEXAS. They do TEACH the same skills, but the teacher takes care to see that they LEARN them. It's probably a good thing I moved to the country cause if I were still in Shreveport I'd probably be in jail after I let the school board "have it" about what I think of their educational protocol. Oh, hell, I'm just in a bad mood today, but I've been upset about the educational system around here for some time and I guess this just set me off. I'll be ok when I calm down and summer gets here. Hugs BD |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by cash5542 on Mar 6th, 2008, 8:16pm http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=76838288 I heard this on NPR on my way to school and couldn't stop thinking about it. It stresses the importance on play in early years and how important it is to a child's developement. I teach elementary art and have for 28 years for children as young as 3 and as old as 12. Over the years schools have changed. Kindergarten is almost always a full day and doesn't include naps. Recess happens if objectives of the day have been met. The rooms are no longer full of pretend kitchens and sand/water tables. Many schools now offer preschool and Kindergarten is mandatory. We just finished several days of standardized testing in grades K-2. I'm finding it takes alot more to get kids thinking creatively than in my first years. I agree completly with Dennis's advice and comments. I don't know where we are going with all of this testing but for now it's very much a part of school. I even have a standardized test in art that I am required to give all of my 2nd and 5th grade. Another option some schools have is Transitional 1st grade. They will do two years in 1st grade, the first one being small classes and a good bridging program for those not quite ready to go on. Good luck!! School sure isn't what it used to be!! Charlotte |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Jonny on Mar 6th, 2008, 8:35pm on 03/06/08 at 20:16:06, cash5542 wrote:
How does one grade that test? Im not asking you , Charlotte....im asking anyone, how do you grade art? |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Redd on Mar 6th, 2008, 9:09pm I'm not taking one side or another. I'm as torn about some things in this world as the next person. On one hand we have idiots making teaching children more and more complicated, but then again, on the other hand, the world that our youth are inheriting is far more complicated that we ever had to deal with at their age. Where is the "line"? Hell if I know. What I do know is that the world my children are to take on is awhole lot more complicated and diversified than I remember when I was that young. But we can't live and teach as if the world is a stagnant pond. It's ever changeing, technology is getting more and more complex, and our kids need these skills as well as the staple 3 R's to stand a chance to succeed. There are only so many hours in day. (Technology hasn't found a way to put more than 24 into a single rotation of the Earth) What are teachers to do? Pubic Education is at the mercy of the Government since it is funded by local,state and federal tax dollars. The Government has it's agenda to work to bring our children to the same satndards as our forign counterpparts, and face it, many Asian countries blow us away. Not saying I agree with those teaching criteria. But none-the-less. Education is a tax payer funded industry, and the rules are set by Government, and States are able to add additional requirements above and beyond what the Federal laws require. No Child Left Behind. Or is it really a matter of... Keeping Up With the Japanese, Germans, Swiss and ....ahhhh every other Nation? My Country's Honor Students can kick your Honor Students Ass...In Chemistry, Physics and Calculous. ;;D |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Charlie on Mar 6th, 2008, 9:31pm OMG! Testing to get out of Kindergarten. Surely you jest.... [smiley=huh.gif] I was in Kindergarten in 1951. Then, it was usually a 1/2 day with a nap so the teacher got a break. Back then, every kid was told to take a snooze to fend off Polio. For you youngsters: Polio was BIG and we were terrified of it. We saw it all over back then....anyway, there were no tests, no requirement to read but a lot of us learned a little. I think we learned numbers though. I don't ever remember being outside in Kindergarten. We got to play with the neatest cement block-sized wooden blocks though. I had fun. Real learning begain in 1st grade. Damned No Child Left Behind nonsense testing and everyone terrified that some kid will skin his knees. Let the kids alone in school. They probably have to deal with "helicopter" parents when they get home or more likely carted off to dancing or other classes. As George Carlin says: "Kids never get a chance to be alone with a stick and have real fun. Leave the kids alone!" I agree. Charlie |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by BarbaraD on Mar 7th, 2008, 5:12am No Charlie - I'm on the same "age wave" as you are. Kindergarten has changed (I'm a couple of years ahead of you - I started in '49) We learned to use our imagination with the blocks and the paper things. And we DID have a case of polio - saw the guy last summer at the class reunion. And yes the world has changed, but we've pretty well kept up. And yes, our kids have a lot more to learn than we did, but they still need the "basics" and that includes learning the things we did at an early age. We can only cram so much into thier little heads, but we still have to let them be KIDS. I think we forget that part. I personally think the schools are spending so much time teaching kids to pass these damn tests they're forgetting to teach the kids the basics of learning. And learning is "fun". But what kids are being taught now isn't taking.... they get out of school and don't even know how to count change, they don't know the capitals of states, they don't have a clue who's president or any other things they might come across in day to day living. I see this daily and it really bothers me. They can tell you every movie star alive, but don't know what's happening in the world and most never vote cause they just don't care. They don't have the respect for teachers we had. Lordy, I had an English teacher that I still keep a picture of hanging in my house. She taught from 1941-1978 and when she died at 99 there was standing room only in the parking lot of the church at her funeral. She made a difference in a lot of kids lives. But I know a noun from a verb and all the parts in between. I've hired college grads in my business that lasted a couple of weeks cause they were dumber than frogs. They had a shiney new diploma that said they passed all the tests, but they didn't learn a damn thing about how to deal with the real world or much about what they passed the test on. That's a sad state of affairs. And it's NOT keeping up with the rest of the world. They're not learning how to APPLY what they're supposingly learning. My 2 cents Hugs BD |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by LeLimey on Mar 7th, 2008, 6:56am Here kids start school at 4, the term or two before their 5th birthday in fact. before that they are in nursery or kindergarten, whatever you want to call it which the government pays for some free sessions for every child from the age of three. In Kindergarten they learn numbers, alphabets, colours etc and rudiments of learning to write and read which they continue in school. Jasper is now six and has his first SATS in May. They learn science, maths, english, religious education (RE), Physical Education (PE) geography, history, art, singing and drama, health - which covers healthy eating and exersize and all stuff like that. Jasper has PE 2-3 times a week. They have 15 minutes play every morning and afternoon - outside unless it's raining. Sports are both outside and inside depending on the lesson. They have 1 hr and ten minutes for lunch and play every day too. I firmly believe that letting off steam helps them with other lessons. Jasper has the reading age of an 9-10 yr old, he is incredible with numbers and his general knowledge is very good. Ask Paul what he thinks of our kids education! I'm not overly happy about SATS at 6/7 but it is how they test the teachers as much as the kids. Sat's scores show how well they are learning and if there is a problem with how they are being educated too. Previous sat's scores have shown that the schools all of my kids attend are outstanding in both eduational and pastoral care. The kids are happy, they learn and they have fun which makes them learn even more. Everyone's a winner. Barb, it sounds like you are right to be concerned.. hearing kids don't get playtime if the class targets (ie the teachers targets) aren't met is disgraceful. That's far too much pressure for everyone and is going to make nervous stressed people out of them. Education is about learning and enjoying it. It isn't supposed to be torture - it's supposed to be the best days of your life!! Lets make sure thats the emphasis we get, we all want our kids to get a good education but not at the expense of their ability to enjoy and absorb and find wonder in what they learn. I want my kids to come home and say "Mummy did you know" not "Mummy I can't do this and I'm scared" |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by cash5542 on Mar 7th, 2008, 7:02am Barbara, I don't know if you read the article from NPR I sent earlier but this is a paragraph out of it. It explains the importance of good play time and why we are having IQ intelligent people without the other neccessary skills. If you haven't read it yet, it's really a good oe to think about. Charlotte But, while all that play might have looked a lot like time spent doing nothing much at all, it actually helped build a critical cognitive skill called executive function. Executive function has a number of elements, such as working memory and cognitive flexibility. But perhaps the most important is self-regulation — the ability for kids to control their emotions and behavior, resist impulses, and exert self-control and discipline. Executive function — and its self-regulation element — is important. Poor executive function is associated with high dropout rates, drug use and crime. In fact, good executive function is a better predictor of success in school than a child's IQ. |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Karla on Mar 7th, 2008, 9:05am What a difference in states. In Wisconsin kindergarden is not mandatory it is optional. My youngest didn't go. |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by BarbaraD on Mar 7th, 2008, 9:24am In Texas it's not mandatory - apparently in LA it is. I remember when Buddy was in Kindegarten the principal and I standing in his office watching the kids on the playground - they were in a line skipping. He told me that skipping was important - if kids can't skip they can't learn to read. I've never forgotten that one and at an early age I had Caleb out learning to skip. My son keeps asking, "But Mom what can I do?" And I keep telling him - "Go to the damn school and see what's going on and if it's not to your liking - CHANGE IT!!!" But he has to WORK!!! UGHHHHH!!!! Kids!!!! Hugs BD |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by LeLimey on Mar 7th, 2008, 9:36am And another thing about play.. its a lesson damnit! They learn to share, to take different roles in games, leader follower etc, They learn to interact with each other and thats more bloody important than alot of other stuff in my opinion!! |
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Title: : School question???????? Post by Melissa on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:29am I'm still peeved that they changed kindergarten from 1/2 day to full day. :( That's why my kids are home with me till they start kindergarten at age 5. Let them be kids while they still can. It's depressing to see how many of them are in day care to begin with and then starting "school" at the age of 3? Very sad... I know the whole speel about having to have both parents work, but that's where I blame all the effort, emphasis and importance on the almighty dollar, euro, peso, you name it. Where have our priorities gone?? ETA: this is where capitolism SUCKS |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by brewcrew on Mar 7th, 2008, 10:31am Stay-at-home mom = the most difficult and important job in the world (on many different levels). |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Sandy_C on Mar 7th, 2008, 2:12pm Darn, I just got off my soap box on Paul's thread about homeschooling, and here's another one. Charlie, you and I were in kindergarten at the same time, so I know exactly what you are talking about. I think possibly, that what is happening today, which was extremely uncommon when we were 5 year olds, is that both parents are working, and their children go to day care, pre-school well before they turn 5 and get to go to kindergarten. In day care and pre-school, they are learning their colors, shapes, numbers, and how to interact with other children and share, whereas, we only began to learn these things at 5. Today's children are learning these things almost from infancy. I don't know whether this is good or bad, because I also believe in letting a child be a child for as long as you can. Childhood is so short as it is, why hurry it on? As to playtime and physical activity, whether it's just hanging out on the see-saw, or an organized game of some sort, is vital to young children. The 15 minutes of outside activity is way out of line, if that is the ONLY time of physical activity they get. Young children, and even older children, need much more physical activity, indoor or outdoor. As to having to pass a test to graduate from kindergarten, yes, I do this some testing is necessary. Some of the things that you list, Barb, seem a bit extensive, like being able to add and subtract, tell a sentence from a word (not sure what that is). But, as I said above, if they have been in day care or pre-school, they should be able to read a simple book (like Run Spot Run), know their numbers, colors and shapes. My youngest daughter,who is now 30, at the end of her kindergarten year, could not read a word, not one. This was during the time when they taught reading using the "whole word" concept rather than phonics. We hired a tutor for her that summer who taught phonics, and by the time she went to 1st grade, she could read just about anything you put in front of her, including the newspaper, just by learning to sound out the letters. That made sense to her, and it clicked in her mind, where the whole word concept was like trying to learn Greek to her. Times have changed, and children, because they are placed in day care, pre-school, church groups, YMCA programs, are learning the basics much earlier than we, or even my children did. However, to go back to Paul's thread, not all children are getting the benefit of this early childhood education. Many/most are not, and our public school system is teaching to the levels of the most "who have not". Sandy |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Charlie on Mar 8th, 2008, 2:43am Here in New York, kindergarten has been a requirement forever, I guess. We didn't have any real book-learnin' when I was a noisy little twerp but 1st grade was a crash course in everything. Reading came very fast with Dick & Jane. The funny thing is that I can't remember learning to read. I grew up around books and spent a lot of time with my Mom and Aunts learning to read. Reading came on very fast for me and my friends. Back then they divided us into three different degrees of ability. Can you imagine them trying that today? History was big back then all through grade school and because my 7th grade history teacher was some kind of missionary in Africa after the war, our class had to learn all about Africa and its geography. So we were stuck learning all those "Cairo to Capetown" colonies divided up by Helen's ancestors. 8) Anyway, I had a lot of fun with history and English. I too had one of those English teachers that taught us three different classes. We had a separate spelling class twice a week in Junior High. I still think that's a good idea. Teachers would yell at us and I had one that grabbed me and told me to shut up. Today, she'd have been sent to the slammer for that. I loved her for it actually. Different times. Charlie |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Emily on Mar 8th, 2008, 7:18am Wow. It's really interesting to see the different approaches that are taken. I'm a trainer for a fairly large investment company here and I'm partly reponsible for the development of all staff. Quite recently, we've noticed a lack of mathematical/language skills in the staff, so we've started running business numeracy and business literacy courses. Basically - percentages, fractions and how to spell their, they're and there in their relevant contexts. Using the things we were taught in school on a practical level. It's scary just how popular these courses are! As you rightly said BD, these kids have a certificate to show that they're educated, but they have no real life skills. My nephew will be 4 in August, which has meant that he's had to start school in September (at only just 3). My sister wasn't happy about him going for a full day either, so she negotiated with the school that he could go for a half day until he was ready for a full day - and that would be a decision made between herself and the teachers. To be fair, in January he started asking if he could stay all day because he's enjoying it. My sis takes that as a good sign, so he goes all day now. They do let them have naps there and there is a lot of activity-based learning. But surely it's about the individual child and when they are ready for things. Teachers should know the children in their class and know when they are intellectually and emotionally ready to learn/move on to harder things/be tested informally. Kindergarten exams are insane! |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Rosybabe on Mar 8th, 2008, 1:28pm I have been homescholing my girl since the school year started and I went online to see what was supposed to be cover for kindergarten and yes I was surprise to see how much she have to learn just for kindergarten. I am proud to say that my girl can write her full name, mine and her Dad's and adding and sustracting is not a problem, she knows and draws the shapes and she is starting to read. She can retell stories very well (she has lots of imagination!) and she is fascinated with bugs. She can do the puzzle of the united states in less than 3 minutes! and tell me the states, she is working on the capitals (she knows Texas capital for sure and where is disneyworld and her Grannys state and her old brother's too ;)) She can find Mexico also :). At the same time she knows over half of the required prayers of the Catholic church and she can say the pledge and sing the national anthem all by memory. I just found out that kids in 7 grade don't know the national anthem, how is that for nationalism :(... and she has lots of time to play and see her favorite movies... I am so proud of what my girl can accomplish and I don't need any test to tell me we are doing ok :) a very proud Rosy 8) |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by Charlie on Mar 8th, 2008, 8:07pm Sounds terrific. Nice job! Every Kindergarten and some further on had a nice heavy wooden state puzzle that the blocks fit it. I loved it. Charlie |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by BobG on Mar 8th, 2008, 8:46pm on 03/06/08 at 12:23:59, BarbaraD wrote:
If Caleb can master the above paragraph he will be excepted as an honor student at UNLV and within 6 months will be qualified to teach at the high school level in the state of Nevada. Our schools really REALLY suck here! :'( modfied for spelling mistake. I was educated in Nevada. |
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Title: Re: School question???????? Post by BarbaraD on Mar 9th, 2008, 6:11pm LMAO Bob -- only in Vegas..... For my birthday, Caleb got me a Scrabble game and he and I have been playing all weekend.... the kid is beating the pants off me (ok, so he draws all the "good" letters)! But he is making the words and can actually spell them. I'm impressed. His attention span isn't that long, but he loves showing Granny how well he can spell (and I'm not LETTING him win - I'm a lot more competitive than that!). We did drawings last night and he can draw all his figures. We made a rocket ship with all the different symbols. He read me a box of cereal this morning (right before he set the woods on fire! - ok so he's not exactly perfect). He can add up his score in scrabble (has a little trouble multiplying on the double and tripple words but.....). All and all he's a bright kid, but having to pass a test is still ridiculous in my book. He also helped me make chicken and dumplins and worm the dogs, so I guess he's getting a rounded education. Right now he's got my friend, James out in the back showing him how to use the scope on his BB gun..... His Dad took a break and went off on the four wheeler and I'm taking a break and hiding out for a few minutes. The kid has worn us all down today...... Guess I'd best get back to the Granny business for a while. Little Bit is going to go home after while and Granny will be missing him when he does. I've lectured his Dad all weekend on going to the school and "seeing" first hand what's going on, but ...... Hugs BD |
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