Clusterheadaches.com Message Board


    
      
        Clusterheadaches.com Message Board
        (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        Daily Chat >> General Posts >> McCain not a US citizen?
        
(Message started by: deltadarlin on Feb 29^th, 2008, 8:38am)

Title: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 29^th, 2008, 8:38am

That's what the press is chewing on now! McCain was born in 1936 on a base at the Panama Canal while his father stationed there as part of his military duty.

What a slap in the face to our military and their families.

Although, I think I found the law that will dispel this myth (if I can find it, why can't anyone else?). Section 320

http://www.jcics.org/billtext.pdf

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by Paul98 on Feb 29^th, 2008, 8:53am

Consider the source of the story....NYT. LOL

I think I would trust the National Enquirer for journalistic integrity over the NYrag.

-P.

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by Ghost on Feb 29^th, 2008, 8:56am

He is still a citizen. at the age of 18 he would have had to choose as my sister did whether to renounse (sp) his citizenship and return to his country or stay here as a citizen. This option is given to all children born overseas to military and governmental personnel while on assignment , stationed, or even visiting. I also think it applies to non Military, Governmental personnel visiting a foreign country.

Mike

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by Mosaicwench on Feb 29^th, 2008, 9:35am

on 02/29/08 at 08:38:21, deltadarlin wrote:

Although, I think I found the law that will dispel this myth (if I can find it, why can't anyone else?).

Because they never let the facts get in the way of a good story . . . .
>:(

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by monty on Feb 29^th, 2008, 10:36am

The Constitution says that a person has to be 'a natural born citizen' to be eligible for president. There is a debate as to what natural born citizen means - historically, there are cases where that is defined as being born within the United States.

The US State Department policy is "Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."

There are other legal doctrines that a person born to parent who are US citizens are automatically citizens themselves, and that when they file for citizenship, it is not a process of naturalization. I subscribe to that interpretation. But some strict constructionists may have a problem with it - the framers of the Constitution did not want someone born outside the US to be eligible to run the country. They did not envision a US empire with bases around the world, and they did not envision US women living on those bases and giving birth there.

(edited to reformat italics)

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by chewy on Feb 29^th, 2008, 10:59am

Does the same alledged rule apply to Senators and Congressman? If it does then some one fucked up big time already.

When did John McCain get elected to the US senate?

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by George_J on Feb 29^th, 2008, 11:00am

Political silly-season stuff--drag a real or imagined skeleton out of the closet, display it in the shop window for all to see, and tut-tut over it. Not much chance it will stick, particularly where McCain is concerned.

Nothing new in this--Grover Cleveland's illegitimate child, Andrew Jackson's marriage, etc, etc--in American politics, few chances are missed to fling a bit of poo at the leading candidates.

I doubt that it's much different anywhere else. Ho-hum.

Best,

George

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by Charlie on Feb 29^th, 2008, 11:06am

This is so effen dumb that it feels like a planted story. I have to wonder if someone didn't point this out so various media would pick it up. It's great publicity and will probably create more McCain votes than losses.

Charlie

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by Ghost on Feb 29^th, 2008, 11:23am

Quote:

A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."

Not sure how that got interprited(sp) for my sister born in the Phillipines but she is a naturalized Citizen by birth. She did however have to release any rights to citizenship of the Phillipines when she was of a legal age, because you cannot legally by US law hold dual citizenship, even though there are those that do. We ran into that when I got my security clearance for the military, because she was never notified of that and had to do so before I got my clearance.
I cant quote the exact law but I do know what we had to go through and she does at this time hold born citizenship of this great nation. with the location of the FPO (fleet post office) as the location of birth on her birth certificate.

Mike

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by monty on Feb 29^th, 2008, 11:28am

on 02/29/08 at 10:59:27, chewy wrote:

Does the same alledged rule apply to Senators and Congressman? If it does then some one fucked up big time already.

When did John McCain get elected to the US senate?

It's not an alleged rule - it is part of the US Constitution.

Quote:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

It does not apply to Senators or Representatives. The founders knew that the number of states would expand beyond 13. The new states would need senators, who would have been born in areas that were not part of the US when they were born.

The fear that the founding fathers had was that England or some other power would try to install their puppet as President. So they made it unconstitutional for anyone who was foreign born to become president, unless they were a citizen at the time the Constitution was adopted and they had lived in the US through the revolutionary war.

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by monty on Feb 29^th, 2008, 11:33am

on 02/29/08 at 11:23:23, Ghost wrote:

... because you cannot legally by US law hold dual citizenship, even though there are those that do. We ran into that when I got my security clearance for the military, because she was never notified of that and had to do so before I got my clearance.

People can legally have two citizenships - ~~no law against that.~~ under many circumstances. The US Government simply does not wish to give security clearances to people that hold other citizenships, as this is seen as a sign of split loyalty.

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by chewy on Feb 29^th, 2008, 12:35pm

OK. Its part of the Constitution.

Quote:

The fear that the founding fathers had was that England or some other power would try to install their puppet as President. So they made it unconstitutional for anyone who was foreign born to become president, unless they were a citizen at the time the Constitution was adopted and they had lived in the US through the revolutionary war.

Fit the need then. Now not so much.

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by brewcrew on Feb 29^th, 2008, 12:36pm

This isn't the reason I don't want McCain to be POTUS. To disqualify him because he was born in Panama is silly. Don't think he came this far without having lawyers up the ying-yang researching it.

He's already pissed on the Constitution via McCain-Feingold.

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by monty on Feb 29^th, 2008, 1:19pm

on 02/29/08 at 12:35:44, chewy wrote:

OK. Its part of the Constitution.

Fit the need then. Now not so much.

I agree. I have no problem with an act of Congress redefining the meaning of 'naturalized' and 'non-naturalized.' I have no problem with the State Department issuing rules to interpret the Constitution (and changing those rules somewhat over time). I have no problems with courts ruling on this, even if they rule in a way that is different from what the founding fathers meant or said. I doubt I will vote for McCain, but he is an American and he has always been an American in my book. I think he is legally qualified to run for President.

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by brewcrew on Feb 29^th, 2008, 10:25pm

RICHARDSON, Texas (AP) — Republican presidential hopeful John McCain said Thursday the question of whether he can run for president, despite being born in the Panama Canal Zone, was put to rest 44 years ago in Barry Goldwater's run for the White House.

McCain added that he doesn't know why his campaign sought legal analysis of whether his birth outside the continental United States might disqualify him from the presidency.

The Constitution says only a "natural-born citizen" may serve as president.

McCain's campaign asked former Solicitor General Ted Olson for a legal interpretation of the issue.

McCain himself insists the issue was put to rest when fellow Arizonan, Barry Goldwater, ran for president in 1964.

"Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona when it was a territory, Arizona was a territory, and it went all the way to the Supreme Court," McCain told reporters Thursday on his campaign plane. "And there's no doubt about that. And it was researched again in 2000."

The Panama Canal Zone was a U.S. territory when McCain was born on Aug. 29, 1936.

As for the reason for seeking Olson's opinion: "I don't know," McCain said. "Maybe my staff talked to him, but I didn't. But I have absolutely no concern about that."

"It's very clear that (the idea that) an American born in a territory of the United States whose father is serving in the military would not be eligible for the presidency of the United States is certainly not something our founding fathers envisioned." McCain's father was stationed in the Canal Zone by the Navy at the time of his birth.

McCain spokeswoman Jill Hazelbaker said the request for Olson's help was routine, and it wasn't necessary to bring it to the attention of the senator.

Olson said he is still researching the issue but is certain McCain is qualified. The plain meaning of "natural-born citizen" includes those born to parents who are citizens, particularly when they are born on a U.S. military base as McCain was, Olson said.

"I am confident that the United States Supreme Court, should it ever address the issue, would agree," Olson said in a statement.

According to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, people are born U.S. citizens if they are born in the U.S. or their parents are U.S. citizens. The question arises because Article II of the Constitution limits the office of president to a "natural-born citizen," a term on which the Founding Fathers did not elaborate.

Missouri Sen. Claire McCaskill, a prominent backer of Democratic candidate Sen. Barack Obama, introduced legislation Thursday that would define a "natural-born citizen" as anyone born to any U.S. citizen while serving in the active or reserve components of the U.S. armed forces. Obama's campaign announced late Thursday that he will co-sponsor the bill.

"Those who serve and sacrifice for their country, like John McCain and his father, deserve every honor and privilege that our nation can possibly provide, and that includes the ability to run for the highest office in the land," Obama said in a statement.

Associated Press writer Sam Hananel in Washington contributed to this report.

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by Groov on Mar 1^st, 2008, 11:34pm

on 02/29/08 at 12:36:48, brewcrew wrote:

Ditto Brew ;)

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by M.R. on Mar 2^nd, 2008, 12:57pm

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but if two illegal aliens come into the country and decide to breed, the child is considered to be a citizen because it was born here. If that is indeed the case, how can you even think about McCain not being a citizen while his family served in our armed forces.

The Mike that pissed at stupid things like this

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by DragonSlayer on Mar 2^nd, 2008, 10:46pm

I believe if a pregnant illegal alien gives birth on US soil the baby is a legal US citizen - then wonder why they try to get here to have their babies?? Go figure - full US citizen rights and privileges by virtue of being born here without regards to the parents residency status.

Title: Re: McCain not a US citizen?
Post by deltadarlin on Mar 3^rd, 2008, 9:21am

You are correct, a child born on US soil automatically becomes a US citizen (there have been discussions regarding stopping this practice).

Carolyn