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Title: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 14th, 2008, 7:26pm If you can find more info than this link provides please post it. http://www.ntdaily.com/news/2008/02/14/News/Northern.Illinois.University.School.Shooting-3211755.shtml |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Theo83 on Feb 14th, 2008, 7:33pm http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/14/university.shooting/index.html |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by deltadarlin on Feb 14th, 2008, 7:47pm http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=36574&cat=14 18 wounded, gunman dead~self-inflicted. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 14th, 2008, 7:49pm Thanks, Theo and Delta. This will be one step closer to taking guns away from law abiding citizens! |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Sean_C on Feb 14th, 2008, 8:04pm Today was a bad day to go to court if you were this kid. http://www.patriotledger.com/homepage/breaking/x1062570434 |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by barry_sword on Feb 14th, 2008, 8:12pm I just got this from CNN. Very, very sad. :'( http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/14/university.shooting/index.html |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Groov on Feb 14th, 2008, 8:40pm What a nut case. If he wanted to do something sensational...I'd rather he take off his seat belt & drive his car into a brick wall. >:( |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 14th, 2008, 8:47pm on 02/14/08 at 19:49:34, Jonny wrote:
Maybe if the first person he went after had been armed, there'd be 17 fewer people with injuries tonight. Or maybe - just maybe - if this whack job thought he might encounter some real resistance, he might have thought twice. When you're the only one with a gun, you're the one who's going to get the attention. But the gun grabbers just don't see it that way. And now four of those innocent people are dead. Including Mr. Whack Job, that makes 5. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by 65fstbk on Feb 14th, 2008, 9:08pm Here is a link posted on another forum I frequent...I dont know if it is just a reprint of one of the other ones (I didnt read them all)...The guy who posted it lives about an hour away from there: . http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1713559,00.html?xid=feed-rss-netzero . Joe |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by jpa on Feb 14th, 2008, 9:48pm http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp http://hematite.com/dragon/reasons2own.html |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Charlie on Feb 14th, 2008, 10:22pm It's terrifying and it's getting so that this kind of news is on page two or at least below the fold in some papers. This kind of thing used by gun control advocates? Nah. I think stuff like this has the opposite effect. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Woobie on Feb 14th, 2008, 11:18pm :'( :'( wtf????? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by JDH on Feb 14th, 2008, 11:46pm Arm the public! These random shootings/murders are getting so out of hand it's scary. I say if you're ready to check out then fine, go out in the woods by yourself and blow your dumb ass away...we don't care! But leave the rest of us alone. Last week some idiot walked into a city council meeting in one of our local municipalities and killed 2 cops, 3 city council members and shot the mayor in the face before he was taken down. And it was all over some unpaid fines for various violations. Be careful it's a crazy world out there :-/ |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 15th, 2008, 12:45am on 02/14/08 at 20:47:22, brewcrew wrote:
It seems the first person he shot at was the professor. Are you suggesting we should arm all the professors? So far, I know my nephew and next door neighbor are alive and fine. Still waiting on probably 20 other kids I know that go there. Won't know until I see a list. Several criticals were flown the 30 miles to the hospital down the road from here. Still probably in surgery. Hopefully the death toll won't rise. Happy freakin Valentines day. Just what we needed...another Valentine's Day Massacre. Just last week, the one at the Lane Bryant. We also knew one of the women that was killed in the shooting at the Von Maur in Omaha (transfered from here). Getting tired of mass shootings around here. :( I don't get it. We've got people like O.J. and Drew Peterson just sitting around asking for it, and they always go after innocent people. >:( Goin back to the phone, Bobw |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Langa on Feb 15th, 2008, 1:15am Pure insanity. Wow Bob, you know quite a lot of people there. Please keep us posted of what you hear. All I saw on the news here were 20 injured, that's it. Langa |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by barry_sword on Feb 15th, 2008, 6:18am According to CNN, a 7th person has died. :'( This is insane! |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Sean_C on Feb 15th, 2008, 6:55am Most of our inner city schools have metal detectors in all grade levels. They also have posted parking signs at the main entrance, "Boston Police Parking Only". The kids and parents feel safer knowing an armed officer is walking the halls during school hours in the gang-banger areas. My prayers are with the family and friends of those in Illinoise. Sean................................. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 15th, 2008, 7:14am on 02/14/08 at 20:47:22, brewcrew wrote:
I don't see it as a gun issue. I see it as a mental health issue. If sick fucks really want to kill others, concealed carry will not stop them all. Those nuts have a death wish, so arming sane people will not stop them - it will only cause them to change their targets somewhat. If someone is wrapped up in fantasies of taking out 5 or 10 others, they probably will find a way to do it, even if others are armed. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Sean_C on Feb 15th, 2008, 7:24am on 02/15/08 at 07:14:59, monty wrote:
I agree 100%. Without using it as an excuse, mental health cutbacks have put an unpresidented amout of mentally ill people bck on the street because of budget cuts. A doctor told me its very difficult to "know" if anyone with mental illness is going to hurt someone in the "future" without suggestion. I don't know any of the particulars of this case, but what I said is the truth. I know emotions are extremely high, please don't take offence to it, it wasn't intended, my heart is with the victems. Sean......................................... |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 15th, 2008, 7:49am on 02/15/08 at 00:45:40, Pinkfloyd wrote:
I'm suggesting arming anyone who is interested in protecting themselves and passes a background check. If that's the professor, so be it. If someone had taken this guy out early on, the death toll might not be up to 7 this morning. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Charlie on Feb 15th, 2008, 8:15am The first time I remember this kind of thing was the Texas Tower shooting in 1966 by Charles Whitman. Jeeze...that's more than 40 years ago....That pales in comparison but the story lasted a long time as a horrible abberation. Sigh......no longer... :( I have the idea that video games and tv are too graphic. I'm not for censorship, just don't overdo the blood. Consequences and that people don't just fold up neatly and die are never shown. Charlie-- showing his age, I guess. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 15th, 2008, 8:18am on 02/14/08 at 22:22:55, Charlie wrote:
Hmmm...Maybe this isn't such a bad thing. Perhaps if CNN and the likes would stop playing and replaying it over and over again like some sort of mantra it would lessen these ideas in other disturbed peoples heads. Not saying it will go away but I think it would lesson the chance of copycats. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by artonio7 on Feb 15th, 2008, 8:56am Here's an interesting study presented by the Journal of the American Medical Association. This was published in 1999 and the objective was: "To develop reliable US estimates of the medical costs of treating gunshot injuries and to present national estimates for the sources of payment for treating these injuries." http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/282/5/447 Granted this was published in 1999... I cringe to think of what the national cost of gunshot injuries are today. There are no words which can express my frustration and sorrow over this tragedy. Sadly there is no simple solution. I wonder what the national cost for treating injuries inflicted by forks and other kitchen utensils is? Perhaps the mindset to carry a lethal weapon is the way to go.... ;) Make it mandatory that everyone over the age of 16 carry a firearm or face a fine or imprisonment. My logic is that all those inclined to inflict bodily injury will eventually be eliminated by the vigilant. Sure... a trip to the grocery store would be a terrifying proposition... but only for a decade or two... and after the mass graves are all covered and the blood stops flowing our country can stand tall and proud for being the recipient of The Darwin Award. with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 15th, 2008, 9:21am on 02/15/08 at 08:56:44, artonio7 wrote:
But if every one did carry a gun, don't you think the disgruntled would simply find another way? Would mandatory carry laws stop someone from driving a car into a crowd, or triggering an explosion to express their rage? Wouldn't there still be situations where people were relatively more vulnerable to a mad gunman? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by artonio7 on Feb 15th, 2008, 9:30am on 02/15/08 at 09:21:36, monty wrote:
Oh don't be silly... at that point it would also be a criminal offense to be caught not wearing your personal body armor ... you know, kind of like the laws passed for wearing seat belts and securing infants in carseats. *note to self.... buy stock in the body armor industry. (http://tinyurl.com/2obswq) with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Kirk on Feb 15th, 2008, 10:31am An armed society, is perforce a polite society. [smiley=twocents.gif] [smiley=smokin.gif] |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Gator on Feb 15th, 2008, 11:44am on 02/15/08 at 09:21:36, monty wrote:
Can't say for sure, but fewer people would die at his or her hand. I'm not for mandatory carrying, but I am for what was suggested previously - making carrying legal for all adult citizens who pass a background check. One thing is for sure. Guns laws ONLY disarm the law abiding citizen from whom the population have nothing to fear. Criminals will always have guns regardless of the laws. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by midwestbeth on Feb 15th, 2008, 12:04pm News reports are now saying the gunman was off meds, had one gun registered to him and two others were purchased just days earlier. Are there any laws that prevent mentally ill people from legally owning guns? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330792,00.html |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Melissa on Feb 15th, 2008, 12:17pm on 02/15/08 at 12:04:04, midwestbeth wrote:
Not that I know of, but I would be peeved if such a law was passed because there are many types of mental illness and how will they regulate such a thing? I wonder just what types of mental illness does one need to have in order to not purchase a gun? I am diagnosed with PPD, anxiety/panic disorder, so does that mean I'd be one of those who'd have it on their record as to not being able to purchase one? I'm not sure I like that scenario... [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 15th, 2008, 1:25pm The bigger issue is this: Bad guys will always be able to get their hands on guns. Laws that prevent people - honest, sane, tax-paying citizens - from owning and carrying guns only serve to give bad guys the advantage. I want to be able to protect myself and my family should the need ever arise. Period. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 15th, 2008, 1:43pm on 02/15/08 at 12:04:04, midwestbeth wrote:
Yes and no. NY has some of the toughest gun laws in the country. If the FBI did a background check and found you were ever institutionalized you would never recieve a permit (pistol) Where do you draw the line concerning mental health? At institutionalized, severely depressed, functional scziophenic, or just having a bad day? The truth of the matter is unless you live in a cave, every day is a risk of one form or another. You can't live in a risk free society and expect to be free. More kids die every year on campuses due to binge drinking than all the students ever shot from a rampage. I don't see Mike Moor doing a Bowling for Booze. movie. It is the media preying on fear and puting ideas into kids heads. I think that is a bigger problem. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 15th, 2008, 1:46pm Well it's still scary to me. And sad, terribly sad. The thing about binge drinking is sad too but that's personal choice. You choose to drink you don't choose to be shot at. I'm so terribly sorry for all the victims and families and friends too. Helen |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 15th, 2008, 1:51pm But you should be able to choose to shoot back. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 15th, 2008, 1:57pm on 02/15/08 at 13:46:49, LeLimey wrote:
Not allways. Tell that to the pledges at frat parties or the people that get run over or crashed into because of the drinking on campus. The rate of death on campus or related to campus drinking is much much much higher than any shootings. The media dosn't care to air THAT story because shootings sell more news. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 15th, 2008, 1:59pm on 02/15/08 at 12:17:24, Melissa wrote:
Most states have some type of prohibition on the mentally ill purchasing fire arms. Usually there has to be something on file that the person represents a threat to themselves or others - this typically comes when a person is institutionalized or has a restraining order or injunction filed against them. Those found to abuse drugs or alcohol can also lose the right - typically, it takes multiple DUIs or disorderly conducts (or a single felony drug possession conviction). |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 15th, 2008, 2:07pm Peer pressure is there for all things from drinking onwards and I wasn't including people killed by drunk drivers - that's a whole different element of the equation too. You also get people out of their face on drugs driving and killing others and so on. THAT list is endless. A death caused by drink driving is a death caused by someone taking a risk. It's no less of a waste of life but it's not the same as someone taking a gun and choosing to shoot people. I can see the argument that it IS but some idiot drunk with a car doesn't usually intend to kill someone, they just do. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by midwestbeth on Feb 15th, 2008, 2:33pm Quote:
Not in any world I would want to live in. Didn't mean any offense Mel. I was just wondering out loud. Personally, I do not think guns laws work to protect the public. It's a scary world out there and you never know when it's going to be your last cause some crazed gunman wants to go out with all the sensational headlines. Beth |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Pinkfloyd on Feb 15th, 2008, 2:54pm on 02/15/08 at 11:44:54, Gator wrote:
Yeah, that's true, at least here in the States. Problem here was that the kid wasn't a criminal until he pulled the trigger the first time. And that's the case in most of these types of shootings. Just makes the answer far more complex than any law can change. The bigger problem from my perspective....at this moment....6 innocent kids are dead. I have one funeral to attend and still waiting for the rest of the list to be released. Dan Parmenter was a local kid. Best friend of my business partner's son. Just a good kid sitting in the front row of his classroom, getting an education. His girlfriend, sitting next to him, is still critical. Bobw P.S. Would I give up *my* right to own a handgun, to bring back these kids.....in a heartbeat. In seven heartbeats. Banning handguns won't work any better than just banning murder has, unless we change a whole lot of other things, making owning handguns as useless and unnecessary as typewriters and 8 track cassettes. Maybe some day the human condition will evolve past the need/desire for guns. Just like with clusters, we have a habit of treating the symptoms instead of the cause. Its so much easier, but leads to so many sad endings. :'( |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 15th, 2008, 3:02pm First we'll have to ban evil. Then there won't be a need for weapons. Unfortunately, evil's been around a little longer than any of us, and I don't see it taking its leave anytime soon. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Melissa on Feb 15th, 2008, 3:25pm on 02/15/08 at 14:33:38, midwestbeth wrote:
It's OK Beth, you didn't offend me at all. :) |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Theo83 on Feb 15th, 2008, 3:40pm I really don't think allowing guns on college campuses is the answer. The benefit would be minimal. Also, those guns would have to be concealled to be of any help, and I doubt many people, myself included, would be comfortable with that. I am neither for or against sticter gun control, but in terms of situations like this, more guns equates to more bullets flying and a greater chance for people to be hit by a bullet. I am inclined to say that the answer lies in friends, professors and family; noting erratic, strange behavior, an obsession with violence, etc and doing something about it. Yet that wouldn't even help. There is nothing legally that can be done, even if the signs are there, unless the person is clearly is an immediate danger to themself or others. Bob- I am sorry for your lose. My thought are with you. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 15th, 2008, 4:37pm What is even more interesting about Kennesaw is that the city's crime rate decreased with the simple knowledge that the entire community was armed. The bad guys didn't force the residents to prove it. Just knowing that residents were armed prompted them to move on to easier targets. Most criminals don't have a death wish. There have been two occasions in my own family when the presence of a handgun averted potential disaster. In both instances the gun was never aimed at a person and no shot was fired. http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38a75857671c.htm |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by jpa on Feb 15th, 2008, 6:12pm http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel052203.asp |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Groov on Feb 15th, 2008, 7:31pm on 02/15/08 at 11:44:54, Gator wrote:
You & Brew are correct Gator. Our crappy state doesn't allow carry. So I'm not "supposed" to carry. Yet, I somehow feel so "welcome" anywhere I go here ;) It isn't unreasonable to consider the importance of mental health treatment for the mentally ill. Mental illness is the actual "root" cause of these type of things. Guns are just the tool as well as the car used to drive to the murder scene. Better mental health services here wouldn't stop all crimes of the insane, but it may be a help. Dont want to sound all preachy, but I say it all the time. So many parents are crap these days. Bad parenting has a lot to do with the Columbine types. I sure & the hell know if my kid is building pipe bombs in my own garage. I know if he is on the edge mentally. How do I know? It's called being a good parent and taking the time to know my kid !!! Not a solution to every problem in the world...but a damn good place to start !! Cheers, Dave |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Charlie on Feb 15th, 2008, 10:20pm I understand the gun toting....I've had my share over the years but I'm glad the patrons of the bars I supported over the years weren't all heavy. God, we would be Swiss cheese :o Charlie |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by sandie99 on Feb 16th, 2008, 2:28am Sad news indeed... :( :( :( Sanna |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Rosybabe on Feb 16th, 2008, 12:38pm young people just starting life..what a sad event :'(... |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 16th, 2008, 3:49pm As the media prepares to launch another blitz of gun control propaganda in the wake of the Northern Illinois University shootings, it's no surprise to learn that killer Steven Kazmierczak had been taking psychotropic drugs and that the campus was a victim disarmament zone - the two major factors which always breed this kind of tragedy. Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, the Oregon killer who gunned down his parents and classmates, and Cho Seung Hui, the Virginia Tech killer, were all on psychotropic drugs. Scientific studies proving that prozac encourages suicidal tendencies and psychopathic behavior in young people are voluminous and span back nearly a decade. Jeff Weise, the Red Lake High School killer was on prozac, "Unabomber" Ted Kaczinski, Michael McDermott, John Hinckley, Jr., Byran Uyesugi, Mark David Chapman and Charles Carl Roberts IV, the Amish school killer, were all on SSRI psychotropic drugs. The press has tried to spin the fact that Kazmierczak was known to be on the same drugs by pushing the line that he was off his medication. Whether as a result of side-effects or during actual use, psychotropic drugs are admitted to increase psychopathic behavior in young people, read any bottle of prozac and you will see this fact freely admitted. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb9_1203169171 |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Theo83 on Feb 16th, 2008, 4:38pm Yes, SSRI's can increase suicidal thoughts, but its not nearly as cut and dry as you make it seem. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Mosaicwench on Feb 16th, 2008, 4:42pm on 02/15/08 at 11:44:54, Gator wrote:
I couldn't agree with you more, Gator. I live in one of two states where they make me a criminal if I have a gun in my purse. I become a criminal if I exercise my 2nd Amendment rights in my state. I am not allowed to carry concealed. Not because I am a felon, or a nut job, or can't pass a background check, but because I am a citizen of Wisconsin. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 16th, 2008, 4:47pm on 02/16/08 at 16:38:42, Theo83 wrote:
Are you talking to me? I didnt write that shit lady....ok? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 16th, 2008, 4:53pm on 02/16/08 at 16:47:35, Jonny wrote:
Who wrote it? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Theo83 on Feb 16th, 2008, 4:58pm on 02/16/08 at 15:49:28, Jonny wrote:
What exactly do you mean by this? I read it as "psychotropic drugs are to blame (atleast partly) for violence in schools". If my interpretation is wrong, then I apologize but if that is what you mean than all I am sayig is that it is an oversimplification of a complex issue. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 16th, 2008, 5:11pm on 02/16/08 at 16:58:57, Theo83 wrote:
Let me guess, you are dense.....I said I didnt write it......LOL What you should do is email liveleak.com and ask them who wrote it! But, reading the text and watching the Testimonies leads me to believe that prozac is wack! |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 16th, 2008, 5:32pm on 02/16/08 at 16:53:32, brewcrew wrote:
Who gives a fuck? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 16th, 2008, 5:58pm on 02/15/08 at 22:20:09, Charlie wrote:
Agee Charlie. Drunks and guns don't mix real well. I'd hate to see the daily newspaper headlines the day we all carry guns. Roadrage, bar fights, family disputes, psycothetic people. The list can go on and on. With the angry society we have, people will shoot first without thinking. Of course they'll come to their senses about 10 seconds too late. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Groov on Feb 16th, 2008, 6:29pm Thing is BlueMeanie, something like 28? states have carry...and crime has actually gone down since the legal carry was made law. Most however don't allow carry in hospitals, city buildings, BARS especially, etc. . I suppose some people would get the "big man on campus" complex going. It is surprising how much more polite people are in Montana when everyone has a hog-leg strapped on their belt ;) There were cries of "blood running in the streets" by the sara bradys of the world...but actually it has had the opposite effect. I think most people are like me...I don't like impolite drivers, but I don't shoot em dead because they drive carelessly. Most of the time I just shake my head when the idiot with the cell phone in his ear almost creams my new truck. Doesn't even get me too mad anymore...I just wonder why they haven't wrapped it around a telephone pole yet >:( :-[ |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 16th, 2008, 6:53pm Washington DC.........No gun crime there, ever...Right? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by catlind on Feb 17th, 2008, 9:54am on 02/15/08 at 19:31:07, Groov wrote:
Dave I agree with you on that issue; here's the problem, I have been through hell and back with my eldest because he made a comment out of anger towards his father - it led to us nearly having to go to trial over it. He isn't a threat to the community or anyone else, he's watched like a hawk by 2 parents who care. My daughter came home from school to inform me that a kid in her middle school - 8th grade - had been suspended AGAIN - the reason? this third suspension was because he sat at the lunch table with my daughter and her friends and made these comments: "I always wondered what it would be like to be a cannibal, maybe I'll bring a gun to school one day and shoot everyone on my list then eat them and I'll start with David cause I always wanted to know what dark meat tastes like (David is black) and then eat the rest , then I'll shoot myself" This kid was suspended; This was his THIRD suspension, the second was for bringing a knife to the school. The school didn't notify me, my daughter casually mentioned it. As if it was common to hear these things in the cafeteria. I made a trip to the school to talk to the principal. This kid is being allowed back in the school, and the principal actually told me this boy is 'odd', and I said all teens this age are odd, and he replied with "Matt is odder than most and not that stable" - WTF?????????? I was assured that this boy will be monitored by the school, the police are involved and that the boy's father was involved. If they are so damn involved how the hell did he get away with a comment like that to begin with when they were going to put my son to trial for threatening his father?? What are my choices? Do I take my daughter out of school? There's another kid just like Matt at every school I'd bargain, so now what do I do? I can't scare her into a state of terror, but I've made it clear she is not to be alone with this kid at any time, she is not to have him sit with them at lunch - if he does she is to move, along with her friends and go tell a lunch monitor, and that she is also not allowed to be next to him in classes. She was put in a group with him in one of her classes - she went to the teacher and told the teacher she wasn't allowed to be in a group with him and the teacher was going to force her - she said if you won't move me I'm supposed to tell you to let me go to the principal so I can call my mom. The teacher allowed her to move groups, but what about the other kids? When is THIS kid going to snap? In this case it's clear there is a problem, there has been an OVERT threat made, yet HIS rights are to continue to attend that school. Someone please tell me the answer to these problems, because I can't figure out what the best thing is to do, and if this kid goes off his rocker while my daughter is around, I guarantee that it's a good thing *I* don't own a gun. But what if it doesn't happen until he's in high school, or college? Where, when, how, who does the responsibility fall to when this is a known problem? How many times do you allow a kid with problems to make threats like this before you do something and stop worrying about affecting his 'self esteem'? It took all I had in me to even read this thread. This is no longer an obscure issue that happens somewhere else, I was supposed to be in Westroads Mall when that lunatic went on his shooting spree, and now this with my daughter, and I learn about a blood bath at yet another school.....When do we as citizens and parents stand up and take action? and how do we do it? Gun control wont' stop this - Canada has very strict gun controls, it's happened there too, gun laws are for law abiding citizens, and getting a gun isn't a difficult thing if you have plans to do something like this..... I'll shut up now, I don't have the answers, I'm just a parent that is scared witless about every day my kids go to school now, and I have no idea how to stop these events from occurring. My heart goes out to the parents and families of those injured and murdered, including the shooter's family. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 17th, 2008, 10:16am on 02/16/08 at 18:53:30, Jonny wrote:
St. Louis has more violent crime than DC - in spite of the fact that Missouri allows concealed carry. Honolulu has one of the the lowest violent crime rates, in spite of the fact that handguns are banned and few people own guns. There is little or no relationship between gun ownership and crime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Sean_C on Feb 17th, 2008, 10:33am on 02/15/08 at 15:40:23, Theo83 wrote:
Thats not exactly true. The doctors have control, AND have limitaions. They can't lock up every person that says he's going to kill himself or kill someone else for very long. And when they do commit them temporarily, they medicate them in an atempt to bring them back to reality. The problem is from what I've seen, is they hurry the patient out the door, make someone thier guardian, and attempt to regulate them in out-patient services. Why?? Because it costs money to facilitate mentally ill people in hospitals, and they have had severe budget cuts. Two weeks, and your on your own. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Theo83 on Feb 17th, 2008, 11:34am Sean_C- I concede your point. I'm dense though, so I might not really understand [smiley=smartass2.gif] |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by deltadarlin on Feb 17th, 2008, 11:49am on 02/17/08 at 10:16:35, monty wrote:
Monty, Unfortunately, you need to look at empirical data that compares crime (mostly violent) rates before and after the enactment of concealed weapons laws (and that I will do later on today). Here's a study that might interest you~ http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/Gun-Ownership.htm "Now, a Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy study shows that this is not just an American phenomenon. According to the study, worldwide gun ownership rates do not correlate with higher murder or suicide rates. In fact, many nations with high gun ownership have significantly lower murder and suicide rates. " Now, lets look at that article on Wikipedia (and tbh, I really dont' use wackypedia for anything critical). Highest murder rate in the nation, Baltimore MD-individuals cannot obtain *personal* permits-there must be documented evidence of recent threats, robberies, and/or assaults, supported by official police reports or notarized statements from witnesses. On to number 2, Detroit, Michigan-has ccw permits, but is extremely strict (can't carry gun in your car without permit). Many years ago, one of our local deputies told me that there would be a lot less crime against women if they *carried*. And he also made the statement, that there is no more dangerous being on earth, than a scared/mad woman with a gun in her hands. Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred: Florida United States homicide rate -36% -0.4% firearm homicide rate -37% +15% handgun homicide rate -41% +24% |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 17th, 2008, 8:04pm on 02/17/08 at 11:49:14, deltadarlin wrote:
Gun ownership rates do not correlate to murder, suicide, or crime prevention. It is true that many nations with high gun ownership have lower murder and suicide rates; it is also true that many nations with high gun ownership have high murder and suicide rates. Or low gun owner ship and high/low crime rates. There is no trend. on 02/17/08 at 11:49:14, deltadarlin wrote:
The statistics are from the FBI, and can also be found on their site. on 02/17/08 at 11:49:14, deltadarlin wrote:
And how do you explain the fact that Dallas and Houston (with lots of law abiding citizens legally carrying concealed weapons) has a violent crime rate that is higher than Chicago, Boston or San Fransisco, which severely limit such legal possession of handguns?? Looking at the FBI data, I find no way to relate the levels of violent crime to gun laws. The cities are all over the place. There is no clear pattern, no indication that allowing concealed carry leads to reduced crime. on 02/17/08 at 11:49:14, deltadarlin wrote:
Woa - that sounds a little 'wacky' to me. What is the source? Why cherry-pick those dates? I went to the US Department of Justice, which shows a rather different big picture: Florida - number of murders peaked in 1987 at 1371, went to 1077 in 1996. (21% decline) New York - 1987 number of murders: 2016; 1996 murders: 1353 (32% decline). Illinois murders peaked in 1994 at 1378 and dropped to 766 in 2005 (44% decline). California murders peaked in 93 at 4096, and dropped to 2503 in 2005 (38% decline). Your claim that Florida saw an unusual decline in violent crime, or that the decline was due to changes in gun laws are not supported by these facts. Violent crime went down as much, or more in states that did not make hand guns more widely available to registered, law abiding citizens. http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Homicide/State/TrendsInOneVar.cfm |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 18th, 2008, 3:51pm Another man's take on this shooting: College Presidents: How Many Students Have to Die Before You Allow Guns on Your Campus? By Doug Giles Saturday, February 16, 2008 “Fear no man of any size, call on me and I’ll equalize.” —Common engraving on Frontier firearms “Call me simple. Call me a redneck. Call me whatever the heck you wanna call me—but until we allow credible and licensed, proven and protective professors and students to carry a weapon (gun) on campus, we will see this murderous madness occur again and again and again.” That paragraph was lifted from my April 21st, 2007 column from Townhall.com right after Cho Seung-Hui (or Seung-Hui Cho, however the heck you arrange his name) killed 32 students on Virginia Tech’s campus. Remember that? As I easily predicted back in April 2007, here we are, less than a year later, being forced to watch (one more time) a bloody yet easily-remedied BS scenario from hades unfold upon our nation’s young people. Last Thursday at Northern Illinois University, the now resident of hell, Stephen Kazmierczak, strolled into a class packed with 162 students and opened fire with a shotgun and three handguns, killing five students and wounding sixteen others and firing over 50 rounds before the toad killed himself (why can’t they start with suicide?). Un-be-lievable. The victims, Gayle Dubowski, 20, Catalina Garcia, 20, Julianna Gehant, 32, Ryanne Mace, 19, and Daniel Parmenter, 20, were accomplished students full of life, hopes and dreams that were cut down before they ever hit their stride. If that happened to one of my kids I would be gutted and extremely PO’ed that their campus had pretty much nothing in place to stop this kind of mayhem. No one was there to stop Kazmierczak. A prof or an “of age” licensed to carry student with a pistol probably could have. The NIU slaughter—which was, by the way, one of 45 shootings (five this week) since 1996 that have occurred on campuses in the United States in “gun free zones”—will not be the last. The mass murderers among us have taken quite the shinin’ to shooting up our students at their schools. The principal reason is that it’s so easy for them to carry out their death wishes because university officials will not allow good guys with guns to carry in class and be an onsite deterrent to death-dealing dillweeds. Hey, “all wise” college presidents and other admin wizards: Until you allow guns—real guns, guns that go bang and kill bad guys—you (to make it personal), your faculty and the students you’re responsible for will continue to be sitting ducks, potential fleshy sponges to soak up the hot lead from some pathetic loser’s happy trigger finger. The gun free stuff ain’t working.... More at http://townhall.com/Columnists/DougGiles/2008/02/16/college_presidents_how_many_students_have_to_die_before_you_allow_guns_on_your_campus |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by jpa on Feb 18th, 2008, 4:14pm Quote:
[smiley=thumb.gif] |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 18th, 2008, 9:51pm on 02/18/08 at 15:51:10, brewcrew wrote:
It was a terrible ting that happened. I couldn't imagine the addtional bloodshed that would have occured if those 100 students all had guns. Wow.. talk about firepower. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Annette on Feb 18th, 2008, 10:08pm My sister is a professor teaching at Melbourne University. If this sort of tragedy starts to happen here and the University suggests she carries a gun and learns how to shoot in order to protect herself and her students, she will quit her job. We have had 6 doctors in Australia killed in their surgeries by mentally unstable patients in the last 4 years, but no one ever suggested that doctors and nurses start to carry guns to work to protect themselves. I deal with mentally unstable and potentially dangerous patients almost on a daily basis. I receive special training in how to recognise danger signs, how to diffuse a potentially threatening situation and how to get out of the danger zone. We also have a panic button in every room which is monitored by the security guard and the local police. They arrive within a minute of it being triggered. I dont think me carrying a gun will help in any way. Just my 2 cents. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 18th, 2008, 10:09pm on 02/18/08 at 21:51:57, BlueMeanie wrote:
Yeah, they would have blown the guy away, but I guess thats not a good thing in your book. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 18th, 2008, 10:20pm Maybe, but he would have still shot as many people in the meantime. Plus he shot himself. Doubt he would have cared if someone shot him. Plus when all those triggers started be pulled by 19 year old kids scared to death, aimlessly pointing their weapons, how many more would have been killed directly or by ricocheting bullets. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 18th, 2008, 10:22pm on 02/18/08 at 21:51:57, BlueMeanie wrote:
Yours is the value judgement, not mine (in changing it from "man" to "fool" ). Imagine if the perp knew that others in that hall were armed. Perhaps he might never have shown up. Perhaps he would have simply offed himself in his hotel room. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 18th, 2008, 10:24pm on 02/18/08 at 22:20:37, BlueMeanie wrote:
All I know is that "gun-free zone" works for shit. It translates to "defense-free zone." |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by thebbz on Feb 18th, 2008, 10:25pm Quote:
Guns dont kill people. People do. The firepower that is in a town of 6400 people here is humbling. Everyone has a gun. Most are polite. You would be asked to leave most places that serve alcohol if you go in healed, unless they know you. I think there would have been less bloodshed had the proper person been armed. You should outlaw idiots. Leave guns alone. We need them to keep the politicians honest. ::) My prayers for the families and people involved. thebb |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Annette on Feb 18th, 2008, 11:13pm Arming the rest of the population in order to protect against psychopath killers will not stop the problem. It may reduce the number of innocents getting killed but since there is always an unexpected element to these massacres, someone will be taken by surprise and killed before the rest have time to reach for their arms. Its better in the long run to reduce the development and manifestation of psychopath/sociopath killers. No child is born with a desire to kill, or even hurt him/herself or others. Every child is born with an instinct to love and to seek love, as love ensures survival. That child however can be influenced during the lifetime by bad factors ranging from genetic weakness, illnesses to abusive environment into harbouring so much emotional pain that the idea of hurting self or others start to form and grow. We need to make sure that every single child in the world receives the best love and care and guidance in life so that the child can grow into a responsible, mature and loving/caring adult. Its well known that we reflect our pain and our troubles into how we think/act/behave. A happy, satisfied and calm person will not think of hurting themselves or anyone else in anyway, either verbally or physically. Violence is often started first with an angry thought, an angry speech and then finally the arms and legs move into action. Eliminate emotional pain in people and you eliminate at least half of the world's current problems. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 18th, 2008, 11:20pm on 02/18/08 at 23:13:58, Annette wrote:
Yep. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by nani on Feb 18th, 2008, 11:21pm on 02/18/08 at 22:08:52, Annette wrote:
I thought you were a General Practioner? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Annette on Feb 18th, 2008, 11:26pm Just wondering here Bill. If you are a teacher, and the school tells you that as a teacher you are expected to train in firearm, and to bring a gun each day to class, and thats its your responsibility to shoot down any gunman, would you be happy with that role and expectation ? I think if its common knowledge that all teachers carry firearms to protect themselves and the students, these psychopath killers will take down the teacher first before open fire in the classroom. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Annette on Feb 18th, 2008, 11:28pm on 02/18/08 at 23:21:49, nani wrote:
General Practitioners also see psych patients and people with addictions. They are potentially unstable and dangerous. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 7:56am on 02/18/08 at 23:26:43, Annette wrote:
To be honest, I'm not seeing a problem with this scenario. To fine tune it, I would carry to protect myself, my loved ones, and my property. I would see a bigger problem if the school administration told me I couldn't carry. I already have a problem living in one of only two states that don't allow concealed carry. And I'm not allowed to at my place of employment because I work in an airport facility that is behind a secure TSA sterile zone. I feel awfully damned vulnerable to bad guys most of the time. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 19th, 2008, 8:45am on 02/18/08 at 23:13:58, Annette wrote:
Maybe teaching people how to cope with emotions is a better way than trying to take emotions away. I think I'm a better person for some of the stuff in life I've gone through and I know I can cope because I have had to. People who can't cope just don't know how to for whatever reason so they need to be shown. I know that was only a hypothetical statement but taking away emotional pain is the same as taking away firearms - you take away ONE end result but not the problem. If this kid hadn't had a gun maybe he would have driven a car into a load of people or taken a knife - where do we stop with taking stuff away? We need to teach people coping skills not wrap everyone in cotton wool. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by nani on Feb 19th, 2008, 8:50am on 02/18/08 at 23:28:09, Annette wrote:
I don't know of any that see them almost everyday. Unless they work in a free clinic or psyche hospital. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 19th, 2008, 9:20am on 02/18/08 at 23:13:58, Annette wrote:
Doing so, I think, would also remove part of what makes us human. Without emotional pain you have nothing to base emotional joy upon and it's nectar would not be as sweet. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by deltadarlin on Feb 19th, 2008, 9:42am on 02/19/08 at 08:45:20, LeLimey wrote:
Helen, I tend to agree with you on all accounts. If one has no negative feelings, how can one grow? Here is an article on the desenitization of our youth. http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20080215/school-shootings-may-mark-generation?ecd=wnl_day_021808 Now, while I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, I'm beginning to see where some of these things are true. Kids (and I'm using that as a generic *catch all*) have been exposed to more violence (more realistic) than I ever ever was a kid. I had no violent video games, the cartoons were violent (but more in a slapstick way), media coverage wasn't what it is today and I could go on and on. I think we have desensitized a whole generation of kids and they don't have the capabilities to sometimes discern between *reality* and reality. Add to that, a generation of parents who don't want to accept responsibility for their kids, eg "little mary is the way she is, not because mama and daddy didn't bother to parent her, but because the school didn't do it's job, or any other variety of reasons". AND, the more I've thought about it, I'm not so sure that arming students would be the way to go. Case in point, one of the interviews with a girl after the shootings~she was questioned on what was used, her description, "a long black thing". Not real sure I'd want this girl to have access to a weapon. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Charlie on Feb 19th, 2008, 10:01am No one can have fun with guns anymore. Anti-gunners and pro-gunners are forced to begin at such extremes that a lot of the enjoymnet isn't there....as it used to be when I fooled with the things. Rats. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 12:28pm It's not whether I get angry, it's what I do with the anger. Even Jesus got angry. Some guys use a woman, a kid, a dog as a punching bag. Those guys need to be removed from society. That's completely unacceptable behavior. Eliminating emotional pain? C'mon. Like Helen, Paul, and Carolyn said, it's part of what makes us human. Life isn't only a bed of roses. The roses don't smell near as sweet if you've never had your nose in the sewer. Here's my deal - I am primarily interested in protecting my loved ones and myself. I would like to be able to carry a small arm to aid me in that effort. Everybody else is sort of on their own. I can't do that in the state in which I live, and I firmly believe that my constitutional rights are being denied. I could move, and once I feel as though my obligations to other family members are either fulfilled or will be taken care of, I most likely will move. If I carry a gun under my coat in this state, I am a criminal. The bastard who sticks a gun (which he had under his coat) in my face is also a criminal. Guess who wins? He does - because he's not interested in upholding the law. If I try to defend myself, Bam! - I'm a criminal. What a load of crap. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by starlight on Feb 19th, 2008, 12:45pm This whole thing is so sad. I remember going to play pool about 9 years ago and looking up at the TV sets and seeing the report on the Colombine shootings--it seemed impossible and so atrocious my friend and I could hardly play pool and left. Now, today, it seems like a "trend" that hardly gets front page news. It makes no sense to me--there have always been people with emotional problems, etc. but stuff like this never used to happen. My question--since school shootings are now happening with disturbing frequency, wouldn't making guns less accessible cut down on them? I have read on this thread that if professors or others are armed that might help reduce the school shootings, but doesn't the risk of one of their guns accidentally going off as they walk around armed or the risk that a child might get access to the gun outweigh the potential benefit that the gun might be used in self-defense to stop a school shooter? Just wondering if that is a valid concern. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by starlight on Feb 19th, 2008, 12:53pm Also I agree with what deltadarlin wrote--kids are being desensitized by violent video games, movies, music--violence is being glamorized in this society, and that is truly pathetic--maybe it is not so much an issue of gun control but an issue of society finally saying no to all of the violence that permeates the "entertainment" industry. This society is no longer "wholesome"--I remember watching "Lassie" and "The Smurfs"--now there are violent cartoons for kids to watch--I played "Pacman" when I was a kid or "Super Mario brothers--now today look at the freakin' video games...never mind the other crap...and, they wouldn't keep putting that crap out if parents didn't buy it or let their kids watch it. Anyway, enough said. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 12:56pm on 02/19/08 at 12:45:10, starlight wrote:
You wanna take that risk? Go right ahead. The freedom to choose NOT to carry a weapon has always been there. But don't tell me I can't. The State of Wisconsin already thinks it has that right. Last I checked, the Constitution guaranteed me that right. "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Bad guys will always find guns because they don't care about being law-abiding citizens. So making them less accessible only reduces access to law-abiding citizens, thus further reducing those citizens' ability to defend themselves. People are afraid of guns because they've not been taught how to handle them. Do accidents happen? Of course they do. Do I want to eliminate my ability to defend myself because accidents happen? Not even going to answer that. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by starlight on Feb 19th, 2008, 1:10pm Brew, I tend to agree that people do have the right to bear arms. Although at this point, with the school shootings it does make you wonder if these shooters would get the guns as easily (or at all?) if they couldn't just walk right into a shop and get one or two or three. I think it really isn't so much an issue of gun control. Rather an issue of society needing to say no to violence being glamorized in the media. But will they ever say no to that? It does kinda seem like we as Americans have become mindless consumers--I mean, back in the day my parents would say "hell no you're not watching that". Now today, it seems way too many parents just say "sure that's on TV go right ahead and watch it" or "that's at the movies, that's the latest popular movie...well, then by all means, go watch it!!!!" When these shows and movies for kids are just way too violent these days. Just my 2 cents |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 19th, 2008, 1:12pm on 02/19/08 at 12:56:51, brewcrew wrote:
That is true of anything. I'd wager more people are killed or maimed in accidents with family pets than by gun accidents but no one wants to ban them. Anything can be lethal in the hands of an idiot. Oh and I thought of something to say regarding the mental health issue too. If you are incapable of knowing right from wrong due to an illness then no, you shouldn't be allowed a gun (or a crayon for that matter.) If you are going to use mental health issues as a defence when anything goes wrong then clearly you shouldn't be doing whatever it is you are considering be it carrying a gun or cooking dinner. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by starlight on Feb 19th, 2008, 1:57pm I have 2 comments: 1) Didn't the kid who did this most recent shooting have 3 guns? Should there be NO limit on the right to bear arms? 2) Isn't it a very circular argument to say that guns should be easily accessible to those who wish to bear arms because they have a need/right to protect themselves against those who are madmen (school shooters, etc.) who also find guns easily accessible? I am not arguing against the right to bear arms, but I don't think that kind of circular argument makes a lot of sense. It would seems if someone was truly concerned about the potential threat of a school shooter or other madman with a gun they would simply want guns to be VERY difficult to access, thereby PREVENTING the potential problem. 3) Oh hell, a third point, to those who say well, if guns are taken away the school shooters will just find an alternate means to take people out...come on... that is a flimsy argument. Why do they all use guns then if there are so many other alternative methods? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:04pm on 02/19/08 at 13:12:27, LeLimey wrote:
I'll take you up on that wager. How much you want to give me? 8) |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:13pm on 02/19/08 at 14:04:30, monty wrote:
You would loose. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:16pm Here's the flaw in your argument, starlight: Guns don't go away just because you restrict or eliminate legal access to them. You're making the mistake of ascribing the ability to do good or evil to the gun. Wackos will still get guns. I want to be able to at least have a chance to defend myself and my loved ones against the wacko. Restrict legal access to guns and only the wacko will have one. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:19pm on 02/19/08 at 13:57:37, starlight wrote:
1) I don't think 3 is a large number. Should there be limits? Maybe. I am not upset when possession of fully automatic weapons (machine-guns) are limited. 2) The reality is that the milk is spilled, at least in the US. There are hundreds of millions of guns floating around, and no prospect of reducing that without disproportionately affecting non-criminals. 3) Efficiency and ease. This is similar to suicide - if a person really wants to commit suicide, and guns are easily available, there is a tendency to use them. In countries with few guns and lots of suicidal people, the self-destructive do find another way. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:22pm on 02/19/08 at 14:13:53, Paul98 wrote:
I would lose? I don't think so. But if you can convince LeLimey that I would lose and she bets big, I will give you a cut of my winnings. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:22pm on 02/19/08 at 13:57:37, starlight wrote:
And how do you propose to make them very difficult to access? Unless you are going to kick in every single door in the USA and forcefully remove ANY firearm, dismantle every machine shop and seal our boarders 100% the only thing that will happen is law abiding citizens will be deprived their constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Nutters and crooks don't give a rats ass about laws. If you want to get rid of guns or "making them very hard to get" you would be just as sucessful to pass a law forbidding bad thoughts or world hunger. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:23pm I smell a conspiracy in the making.... |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:26pm on 02/19/08 at 14:22:07, monty wrote:
Don't forget that you are sure to hear of almost every shooting in the news. Dog bite? I don't think so. -P. edit to add: Dog bites are a significant national health problem. Recently dog attacks have been making news. Here are some startling USA statistics. A 10-year study showed the number of dog bites rose 37%, while dogs kept as pets increased by only 2%. For children, dog bites now cause more emergency room visits than any other activity except baseball/softball, exceeding injuries by ATV’s skates, skateboards and volleyball. There are almost 5 million animal bites per year. Dog bites represent one-third of all homeowner claims, causing losses that exceed $1 Billion per year. source:http://www.mesacounty.us/mcweb/animalcontrol/Tips%20to%20Keep%20Your%20Pet%20Healthy%20and%20Safe.htm |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by thebbz on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:31pm Quote:
It would also reduce the number of attacks on innocent people. Someone with a gun is real big till they realize that lead fly's both ways. All of a sudden they aren't so big. When they outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have them. thebb |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:31pm on 02/19/08 at 14:26:00, Paul98 wrote:
I'll give you 30% - that sound ok ?? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:35pm on 02/19/08 at 13:57:37, starlight wrote:
The full text of that amendment (the 2nd, in case you were wondering) states: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." I don't claim to have a right to bear arms as a need to protect myself against madmen. It is my right, as set forth in the Constitution, so that I might help provide for the security of a free State. Protecting myself against wackos is a nice side effect. But as long as I'm not using them (and my guns have killed fewer people than Teddy Kennedy's cars), I only have them to help provide for the security of our free State. I am never - NEVER - in favor of taking away the rights of law-abiding, tax-paying citizens. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:37pm on 02/19/08 at 14:31:43, monty wrote:
;) -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school`1 Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:39pm I just talked to my lawyer in Arkansas, and he pointed the ambiguity of the word 'maimed'. Although there are only about 25 fatalities from dogs in the US each year (vs. 1250 gun accident fatalities), the word 'maimed' cannot be objectively quantified. Especially when my lawyer is representing the parents of a little girl who had her mitten nipped by a dog, and is now attempting to reclaim damages for pain and suffering. So the bet is off. But there are about 50 gun accident fatalities for every dog mauling fatality. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school`1 Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:43pm on 02/19/08 at 14:39:38, monty wrote:
Don't tell me - The Rose Law Firm? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:50pm on 02/19/08 at 14:35:09, brewcrew wrote:
So if some the various states wants to regulate the militia within it's boundaries, that's ok? Could they require militia members to only carry certain calibers, to improve logistics in time of emergency? Could they limit when militia members take their weapons outside of their homes in a time of peace? Well regulated militia might mean registration of all firearms? |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 19th, 2008, 2:52pm Monty I was talking about accidents - personally I wouldn't call most "accidents" with animals accidents at all as the majority of animals will not bite unless provoked considerably but I'm not arguing that. I was trying to make the point that if you take away guns you don't take away violent crime and that anything can be used as a weapon. I worked in the prison service for a while. I've seen lethal "knives" made from toothbrushes there. Going back to guns though, look at us here in England as an example. We DO have guns here but not commonly simply because it isn't a part of our lifestyle. I saw a gun for the first time in Dallas when I was 39. (Not counting seeing guns on Changing of the Guard!)Our police aren't armed although we do have armoured special response units. Does this mean we don't have gun crime? Nope. We do. We have had two horrific gun incidents here, Hungerford where one madman went on the rampage and shot up a village and Dunblane where another man walked into a school and proceeded to start shooting. Guns aren't common, England is the size of Texas and we have had two massacres in my lifetime so it can't be argued that taking away guns stops crime. It doesn't. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2008, 3:16pm on 02/19/08 at 14:52:56, LeLimey wrote:
I agree completely. I don't see guns as a major cause of crime, or as a particularly effective solution. Just couldn't keep from defending my canine companions - very, very few people die from dogs each year, and yes, as you pointed out, many of the people that do get bit were not innocent. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 3:17pm on 02/19/08 at 14:50:03, monty wrote:
I suppose all of that could become true, but I'd fight to the death to see that it didn't. I don't believe in my heart that it's what our founding fathers intended. However, I'd rather this didn't spin off into a debate about constitutional law and interpretation. As of now we all still have these rights as discussed previously. And I also believe that if somebody else in that lecture hall had been armed, there wouldn't have been as many innocent lives wasted. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 19th, 2008, 3:26pm on 02/19/08 at 14:52:56, LeLimey wrote:
Lets not forget about the IRA and their little rampage through out the UK. Lack of guns didn't seem to slow them down. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 19th, 2008, 3:43pm No although they are remembered more for bombings here on the mainland at least. Kneecapping was their style on their home turf for people who crossed them. Thats terrorism though and a completely separate ball game otherwise we'd be including Al Queda etc. The thing is, criminals will always get weapons to perpetrate crimes. The people we have been talking about here are ordinary type people not terrorists although you could call them extremists I suppose. I think it's two quite different issues though. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 19th, 2008, 3:50pm on 02/19/08 at 15:43:22, LeLimey wrote:
The outcome is the same; gunman shoots 15 people in a school or the IRA detonates a bomb killing 15 school kids that happen to be in the wrong place. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 19th, 2008, 3:57pm True - but the IRA always gave warnings. Trouble was their bombs were crap and liable to go off early. Also with terrorism you can have intelligence and informers and all sorts of other ways to combat it, you at least have a fighting chance. With some nutjob who quietly venerates Hitler or thinks he is a vampire or some other weird reason - someone who wants his 15 minutes of fame it's a lot more insidious. Short of having thought police you almost can't fight that. THAT is why we need to do something about our densensitisation problem, our over reporting of information which maybe gives other sicko's ideas, we need to teach people how to be members of society again cos as it is too many people are just out for themselves. We need some old fashoined values back. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:00pm on 02/19/08 at 15:57:24, LeLimey wrote:
And that won't come through legislation, nor will it materialize by standing in a circle singing Kumbaya. I sometimes wonder if it is gone forever. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:04pm Well Brew if nothing else we can TRY to do it one parent at a time. We're none of us infallible but if we at least try we'll make some difference. Maybe we can change the norm. I don't know. I do know I'll bloody well try though. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Paul98 on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:11pm on 02/19/08 at 16:00:27, brewcrew wrote:
It will remain out of reach as long as the people look to government to solve their problems. As long as government bribes voters with handouts people will look to government. -P. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Gator on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:16pm on 02/19/08 at 14:22:31, Paul98 wrote:
Even that won't do it because the components to make a firearm are so easy to come by. Ever heard of a zip gun? A hollow tube for a barrel, a pointed object to serve as a firing pin, a heavy rubber band to drive the firing pin and an easily carved piece of wood to hold it all is just about all it takes to make a small caliber weapon. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:18pm on 02/19/08 at 16:16:12, Gator wrote:
Semi-automatic? ;;D |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Gator on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:28pm It only takes one well placed bullet to ruin your whole day. I've seen guns made out of kid's toys, ink pens, flashlights, canes and more. When I was a patrolman, we were warned to be careful when stopping motorcycles because some of the Hell's Angels types were turning the handlebars of their bikes into shotguns. When they were pulled over, they would angle the handlebar back towards the approaching officer and a small flick of the thumb could trigger a ride to the hospital or the morgue for the unsuspecting cop. Guns aren't going away just because they are made illegal. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by artonio7 on Feb 19th, 2008, 4:42pm The only logical course of action to all of this madness (since we've established bad people will do bad things regardless of the law) is to protect oneself and your loved ones sufficiently... If it's illegal in your state to carry a concealed, legally obtained, licensed and registered weapon, (and moving is not an option), the next best thing is to buy personal body armor for you and your loved ones. In an earlier post, in a tongue and cheek manner, I mentioned personal body armor. Sadly I can envision the day when a parent will be fined for allowing their children to leave home without it. I can also see large auditoriums designed with bullet proof glass in front of every other row... to minimize damage in case of an assault, that is of course if universities don't decide to resort to an electronic form of education or are required by law to have an armed guard in every nook and cranny.(in the future) Why would any student who values their life ever even consider going to a university without the proper security features installed? That would be reckless as going on a roller-coaster ride without safety belts. To assume that this violent trend can be wished away and made better is naive and delusional. Let's for the sake of argument say that we all carry a concealed weapon.... having a gun won't mean squat if you're being over-powered by 3 armed thugs in a sneak attack or mugging. that scenario played out 4 weeks ago with a friend of mine Our reality is stitched together with these horrid acts of violence and just as you would never consider not buckling your seat belt or driving while drunk, it stands to reason that you are also responsible for taking every and all precaution to avoid injury by what ever means you can afford. In the society that we have blossomed into... it just seems to follow logic that if you can't control a situation (god forbid everyone should be expected to act civilly) we adjust our tolerance level and, find a way to make a dollar off of it. just my two cents (which coincidentally cost four cents to produce) with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Annette on Feb 19th, 2008, 5:02pm on 02/19/08 at 08:45:20, LeLimey wrote:
I should have worded my post better. I should have said prolonged, unnecessary emotional pain. Yes, teaching people how to deal positively with unhealthy emotions is what I meant. These killers dont turn psychopath overnight from short term emotional pain. It takes years in the making to produce one of them. Incidently in Vietnam where guns carried by civillians have always been illegal, and guns are so expensive thats its out of reach of most criminals unless they are big gang members. A gun there would cost an average of a years salary. Most psychopaths there wave machettes and serrated knives, not guns. There has rarely been such a massacre. The biggest one there was like 12 years ago where 5 people sitting in a cafe were killed when a madman detonated a hand grenade. Maybe one of the problems is not just how accessible guns are in the US, its how affordable they are too. If it costs say $20K for a hand gun and say $50K for a semi automatic , most madmen wouldnt be able to afford one ? Just a thought. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Melissa on Feb 19th, 2008, 5:09pm on 02/19/08 at 17:02:55, Annette wrote:
Nope, still wouldn't matter. They'd still get ahold of a weapon through the black market or robbery. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by LeLimey on Feb 19th, 2008, 5:22pm It goes back to the point that guns don't kill - it's the person who's finger is on the trigger that does that. If you take away guns people who want to kill will find something else to use to do it. It all comes back to mindset. Annette I agree that these things don't happen overnight and there ARE often clues. You hear afterwards of stories where people have said stuff but people shrugged it off. Sort of like the scary scenario Cat described above. We need to get better at spotting warning signs and taking action BEFORE it's too late. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by deltadarlin on Feb 19th, 2008, 6:17pm on 02/19/08 at 17:02:55, Annette wrote:
And again, that would be a judgement call as to what one defines as *unnecessary* and/or prolonged. And even if you *treat* this pain, sometimes, it just doesn't ever go away. Yes, you learn to deal with it, but the pain is never completely gone. on 02/18/08 at 23:13:58, Annette wrote:
I'm going to beg to differ with you here. There are children who are born like this. Go look at the lives of serial killers. A lot of them showed sociopathic tendencies since childhood. And even if you can treat them, who's going to stand over them every day and make sure they take the medicine that's going to prevent them from going off the deep end (as it seemed this man did)? Speaking of, look at the casualties in Iraq, look at death/injuries by martyr as opposed to death/injuries by gunshot. You take the guns away and afore you know it, old Gus has gone on the internet and found the formula to make himself a bomb. Straps it on under his overcoat and heads to the subway during rushhour (or any other scenario you want to use). Or hell, maybe commandeer/rent/buy a plane and fly it into a building? Or perhaps, fill your truck up with ammonium nitrate and a few other tidbits and set it off via radio. The methods are endless (and no, I am not that violent of a person). Again, note, these mass killings that are being committed are not by your everyday jane or joe (politically correct here) who just gets pi$$ed off at somebody, but by people who maybe not so obviously in some cases are having major problems (unlike cho at Virginia Tech who had a lot of problems that were fairly well documented over a long period of time). |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by monty on Feb 19th, 2008, 7:15pm on 02/19/08 at 18:17:29, deltadarlin wrote:
A few decades ago, we lived up north and there was a steep river that flowed through our neighborhood (our house looked out at a small dam, and there were falls above and below that. A six year old drowned in the pond behind the dam. They found out he was pushed, by a 10 year old, who was also implicated in a previous 'accidental' death where the 10 year old was the only witness. Sometimes the world makes no sense at all. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by starlight on Feb 19th, 2008, 9:49pm Welp, to those who are saying that if guns are outlawed, these madmen will just get them illegally, I'm not so sure. Didn't this most recent shooter get his guns from the same dealer another previous shooter Cho got his guns from? I thought I read that. My only point is that both those 2 don't seem (from what has been written about them) to have had too many ties to the underworld of illegal gun trade. One should notice they got these guns legally which suggests they did not have easy access to illegal guns, rather they found getting one legally easier. Am I wrong in that assumption? This most recent shooter seemed from outside appearances pretty normal, with a real normal girlfriend, there were pictures of them on the news at Disney World wearing Mickey Mouse hats, smiling and "in love" according to the girlfriend--my point is I doubt the guy knew too many illegal gun dealers, somehow I just doubt it. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 19th, 2008, 10:17pm I'm so done with this topic. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by starlight on Feb 19th, 2008, 10:18pm One more comment and then I'll shut my trap--to those who are saying it was him going off his meds, his "mental problems", etc. etc. that caused the shootings, I beg to disagree. I think people are looking at the wrong things and missing the bigger picture. This sh*t didn't happen 20 years ago. Yet, there were people with mental problems, etc. As far as meds being the cause, I don't buy that. Society has become degenerate, with violence being glamorized. That's the problem. Sending the youth the wrong message about right and wrong, in my humble opinion. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Feb 19th, 2008, 10:23pm on 02/19/08 at 22:17:43, brewcrew wrote:
Nite dude....LOL [smiley=grin2.gif] |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Charlie on Feb 19th, 2008, 10:48pm on 02/19/08 at 16:16:12, Gator wrote:
You can buy guns out of paper bags at some flea markets. Trust me. For someone selling old stuff like me, it's almost impossible to avoid being offered the things. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Sean_C on Feb 19th, 2008, 10:59pm on 02/19/08 at 22:18:20, starlight wrote:
LOL now that was funny!!!!!!!! [smiley=grin2.gif] [smiley=grin2.gif] |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by catlind on Feb 19th, 2008, 11:48pm on 02/19/08 at 17:22:19, LeLimey wrote:
And what still confounds and amazes me Helen, is that I have been the ONLY parent of the 6 girls I know of that were in the group this kid said that to, that has actually gone to the principal over this. I stay fully active in my kids lives, much to their distaste, dismay and dislike, but tough $hit, I'm their mother, I want to be their friend, but I HAVE to and WILL be their mother first. How do we take back the reins? How do we instill the values and ideals in our children in such an environment of mechanics and desensitization? Should I take stronger action with the school and this child? Or will doing so be the very thing that triggers him and sends him over the edge? I don't have the answers, I wish I did, but I try. Is it so hard to ask and expect every parent to try? to do the best they can with what they have even if it isn't great? I know my generation dealt with a great deal of crap and misery, but we didn't go on killing sprees in schools; Until we truly identify the core of the problem and then as a society act to treat the problem and not the symptoms, then this will continue to be an issue we face. In my opinion this requires societal reform, not gun law reform. Cat |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Annette on Feb 20th, 2008, 4:21am This is what the NAMI director think about the effect of violent video games on the mentally ills. NAMI Condemns ManHunt2 Video Game for Linking Mental Illness to Violence Controversial Game Raises Public Health Concerns Statement of Michael Fitzpatrick, Executive Director National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) November 1, 2007 “NAMI asks Rockstar Games to recall or further modify the videogame Manhunt2 due to its irresponsible, stereotyped portrayal of mental illness. We also ask retailers to be responsible in responding to public health concerns. Even though some people may consider Manhunt2 to be only a game, it unfortunately perpetuates and reinforces cruel, inaccurate perceptions that people who live with mental illnesses are violent. The U.S. Surgeon General has condemned such stigmatization, identifying fear of stigma as a major barrier to people getting help when they need it. The overall contribution of mental illnesses to violence in society is exceptionally small. In fact, people living with mental illness are far more likely to be victims of violence. Released on Halloween, Manhunt2 enables players to assume the role of a patient fighting to escape from the “Dixmor Asylum for the Criminally Insane.” The patient uses a variety of sickening techniques to torture and kill security officers and others in his way. Manhunt2 initially received an “Adults Only” rating for players ages 18 and older in the United States. This rating would have limited the game’s market; several major retailers will not sell games with that rating. Rockstar made some small changes to the game, including the removal of a graphic scene with castration, and received a new rating of “Mature” for players ages 17 and older. The British Board of Film Classification was not satisfied with the changes and citing the game’s “unremitting bleakness” and “casual sadism,” has banned the game in the United Kingdom. Concern over the violence reflected in the game up until now has not yet been extended to include the outrageous portrayal of the 54 million people in the United States who live with serious mental illnesses. We do not favor censorship, but we do ask for responsible exercise of creative rights when serious public health concerns are at issue. It is our right to demand a higher standard." Modified to add : Why do we have "games " like this ? Why something so sickening and violent be considered entertainment ? If this can be accepted as fun and game in our society, no wonder we have youths walking around killing others .... its fun and game, right ? >:( |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Sean_C on Feb 20th, 2008, 7:52am Thats the blame game theory Annette, in my youth, it was because of Heavy Metal Rock musicians like Judist Priest, or because if you played an "album" song backwards there was a subliminal message. Then I believe it was because of Rap Music, now its video games. I wil agree that some video games are classless, and most don't do well in the retail market, which usually halts future releases. How many people become rapists because they watch porn, or go to adult night clubs? Lastly, 1 in 4 people in the US don't have serious mental illness, that article holds no wieght ;) Mental illness is real, its not like being depressed a little, its a whole different relm of awareness, its sad that we don't take it more seriously. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Melissa on Feb 20th, 2008, 8:01am I saw on the news last night the shooter had a tattoo of that really weird character from the SAW movies. Personally, that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by M.R. on Feb 20th, 2008, 12:36pm Just got to read this thread...(I miss all the fun). I personally will never give up my right to defend my home. If you break into my home with the intent to cause me harm, I will do my best to deter you (with a gun). Not only is that in the constitution (2nd amendment), that should be a given. In MHO, anything less would be stupid. Yes, I said stupid. If you chose not to do that, that is your choice, but don't tell me I can't. There are countless times people have defend theirs with guns. http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/ Now on to public places. Given the current laws, I fear the general populace with guns way less than I fear them with out them. The small group that will take advantage of those without will be deterred (by at least somewhat) by the possible presence on equal force. The ones that want to die are going to, one way or another. How can you not give the victims a chance to at least defend themselves. Some of course, this is dependant upon; If you want to own a gun, buy it and get proficient with it. If you get it and don't learn how to use it, your a danger to yourself and others. You learnt how to drive a car, didn't you? Teach your family how to use it. We grew up with guns (like millions have). No one was shot, no school shootings, not even pulled in anger . Nothing has died by my pistols. Again, if you chose not to have guns, that is your choice. There is nothing wrong with that. Just don't tell me I can't. The reality is that you can't wish guns away. They are here. The current gun laws need to be enforced. You use a weapon to commit a crime, you fry (that's a whole nother post). In the end, you and you alone are responsible for your own actions. Mike P.S. Sorry for the long post (by my standards), but I had to make up for several pages Edit to add: You never hear from big media how people use self defense to protect themselves, just the big stories of death and violence. Maybe that if criminals heard how they were deterred everyday, they may not try as hard. Just a thought. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Groov on Feb 20th, 2008, 10:18pm on 02/17/08 at 09:54:33, catlind wrote:
Since you asked me....I dunno Cat. Sounds like you are doing as best as you can. That's all I could do too. Mine are long gone from school and adults now. I couldnt do much to control the other kids at school, but I did right by mine...just like you. I suppose I can only tell you to try not to let it consume you too much. Maybe easier said than done. My youngest is 19 now and soon he will be driving without me in the car. He's one of the most careful & responsible 19 year olds I've ever known, but I suppose I'll still worry a little when he starts to go places in his truck by himself...you know being that he still lacks driving experience. I'm not worried about him doing something stupid, just getting into an accident due to inexperience. He'll have to take his chances just like I did when I was his age. I rode motorcycles like a madman when I was a kid. My Mom worried about me I suppose. I can only say, don't worry yourself sick if you cant do anything about it. Cheers, Dave |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Groov on Feb 20th, 2008, 11:04pm The question of "why does this happen" "what to do" etc. Is almost always answered by proposing banning things, blaming: video games, guns, rock music, breakdown of family etc. etc. etc. Though these things do play a part in many cases of kids going berserk, they are not at all the root cause as I see it. My youngest has since he was 12: owned guns (kept locked in my gun safe for obvious reasons) , owned every violent video game he wanted, had his own internet connection, and had really only one Parent who stayed home and payed attention to him...that is me BTW. Perfect recipe for a psychopathic school assassin eh? Well, he is the best kid I could have ever dreamed of having as a son. He does not use drugs or alcohol (has seen first hand what can happen with abuse) Never has got in trouble with the Police. Never been in trouble at school. No problems with other kids. Never stoled things from a store, abused animals, sexually assaulted a girl. Not a damn thing he has ever done that I was ashamed of or had to whip his ass for. Well bloody hell, how is that !?!? Cause I taught him the one thing that is the "root cause" of all this shit going on in our schools. That is that other people have Constitutional and human rights...that we all have these rights. We are the sole owners of said rights. And NO ONE has the right to take them away or violate them. It is respect for other people and respect for ones self. Worked for my Dad...worked for me....will work for my boy when he raises his own kids. Just that simple. Dont get me wrong, I wasn't the perfect Parent. I did the best I could and that is all. It is true that sometimes despite our best efforts a kid can still turn out to be a real turd. A variable we simply cant control..........But odds are !!!! Truth is, to take any weapon and murder innocent people takes a person who is far beyond helping by taking away his Twisted Sister album or Metal Gear Solid shooter game. And I have no reason to believe it would have untwisted Jr's F'DUP little brain to begin with. Solution? There is none...thats right !!! How you gonna force P.O.S. parents to do their damn job correctly!?!? Take away a right? Ban video games, make em watch Oral Roberts Jesus hour???.... HA HA HA...wake up & smell the ignorance & denial. So, there ya go. Sorry, but that is how I see it. Dave |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by brewcrew on Feb 20th, 2008, 11:13pm Dave - Another name for it is the Golden Rule. And it sounds like your son knows it pretty well. |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by catlind on Feb 20th, 2008, 11:57pm on 02/20/08 at 23:04:36, Groov wrote:
No sorry for how you see it, I think you see it about exactly as it is; I was raised by the rules of do what you want, but don't get caught, and don't hurt anyone, including yourself; If yer gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough; Not much to get caught for if you aren't hurting anyone or yourself (imagine my dismay when I thought I had a golden ticket to do anything I wanted as long as I didn't get caught, and then realized the rest of the statement!). My kids are being taught the same as you have stated above Dave, albeit worded my own way, and as Bill said, the Golden Rule - Life is the highest value, ALL life; Hurt none, help all; and If yer gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough; If they are raised to understand those values and that they are responsible for the consequences of their actions then that's the best I can do as a parent. I can't control what another parent is doing, all I can do is talk to my kids about how to interpret it and give them reality checks on what they think about some things. Do the best you can with what you have, and don't blame the *insert choice of word here*... You're right though Dave, I need to worry about that which I can control, and the rest I will simply have to take on faith. Cat |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Charlie on Feb 21st, 2008, 4:15am Wow. This kind of thread brings us all out. The reason for most of these tragedies is fear and more fear, real or not. We The People are exposed to "news" all day long using these tragedies to sell crap on tv. When one story gets tired, they run around the country looking for another sad event...sometimes shown for more than it is of course. It can scare the shit out of us. These news organizations can be on the top of these things very fast. It's cheap and like violent movies it's "easy" to watch because it doesn't mean having to pay a lot of attention. It's exciting but not at all healthy. It creates a culture of fear and of course it's tempting to look for ways to protect ourselves. It's human nature. More so than ever are told all the time to fear evrerything and everybody. People don't discuss movies anymore other than how much damage and body count there. Guns are rarely shown for what they are intended. They've become one of the "stars" of the films. My idea of a gun star was "Winchester 73." 8) Guns should be a last resort. The thing is that we know that guns can be a messy way to settle things and in a lot of cases; damned ineffective....most people don't. I long for the days of Rifle Club at our high school. They had fun. Alas, my seizures have changed, I don't trust myself around them. I got rid of mine. Still, I think I'd still have a couple if not. They can be fun and I liked collecting pre-20th century stuff especially. :( Charlie |
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Title: Re: Another blood bath at a school Post by Jonny on Mar 14th, 2008, 9:45pm on 02/16/08 at 16:38:42, Theo83 wrote:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=075_1205504956 |
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