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        Daily Chat >> General Posts >> Enough is enough!
        
(Message started by: Jonny on Jan 18^th, 2008, 9:02pm)

Title: Enough is enough!
Post by Jonny on Jan 18^th, 2008, 9:02pm

This bullshit needs to stop, who here would ask the person next to you firing a rifle at the enemy to help save your life who they are sleeping with?....its pure bullshit!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e6_1200672484

Most of you know that over the last eight plus years that I usually only start two kinds of threads, threads that I think people will laugh at, and threads about shit that really pisses me off.......this is one that pisses me off!

Most of my threads will only get 6-10-14 replies, I dont care about that because not everyone thinks like me. Im looking at how many views the thread has got and how many people at least viewed what I had to say.

Some people are scared to post to ceartin threads and thats cool, just as long as I see the views and know folks have seen what makes me mad, or makes me laugh. ;)

I thought the military was looking for a few good people.....I guess that was a fucking lie!!!!!!! >:(

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Annette on Jan 18^th, 2008, 10:21pm

Do we know why the ban was there in the first place?

In the clip, only the policy of " dont ask, dont tell" was mentioned, but not the actual ban itself.

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Gator on Jan 19^th, 2008, 12:47am

You are right Jonny. The last worry I ever had while I was in the service was the sexual orientation of the people I served with. I think this is true for most of the people serving today, but just like in civilian society these days, a few idiots cause trouble for the majority.

Just as in civilian society, gays in the military were (and sometimes still are) attacked by their homophobic peers. These mental giants would make trouble for and/or refuse to work with homosexuals and it could be quite disruptive to the entire unit. Worse, when several of these "intelligent" people got together, the mob mentality sometimes took over and people were seriously hurt or even killed. Mission effectiveness suffered and you just cannot have that in a military organization. Rather than lose good people because of their sexual orientation, an unofficial policy of "Don't ask - don't tell" was implemented. It was and is unfair to homosexuals, but as long as everyone "played by the rules" it wasn't an issue.

I think banning gays and lesbians from serving in the military is just plain wrong. I always have. In my years in the Air Force, I had supervisors, subordinates and close friends who were homosexuals. I never felt threatened by them and I never understood those who did. Like one of the people said in the video, if the military would have just addressed it (like they did with blacks in the service) and said, "this is the way it's going to be," there wouldn't be the problem that they still have today.

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by ivanov on Jan 19^th, 2008, 1:56am

If you want a comprehensive overview of the law
and the tragic consequences of the policy-
This is good reference source-

http://www.hrc.org/issues/military.asp

Dan

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Groov on Jan 19^th, 2008, 2:13am

Never been in the military Gator, but I don't understand the Constitutionality of prohibiting any gay citizen from joining ???

It makes sense to prohibit convicted violent persons, child abusers, etc. They have broken laws and lost the right to join. Being gay is not illegal and whether anyone understands or likes it, it is the right of the individual to be free to live as they choose.

Prohibiting them is tantamount to racial discrimination as I see it. It is prohibiting persons because you don't like their beliefs or looks or lifestyle of whatever.

Every law abiding citizen in America is supposed to be protected by the simple clause "equal protection under the law"

In the video, someone says something like "America is supposed to be a place that sets the standards of freedom and democracy for the world"
I happen to agree 100% with that statement. However, we often do just the opposite. I don't care if someone hates gay people...that is their right.
Conversely, it is NOT their right to step on the Constitutional rights of others....FACT !!!
Attacking innocent persons is very un-American.

The aggravation for me here is that we are not sticking to what gave us these freedoms. We no longer dictate law by The Constitution. We simply use fear & peoples stupidass emotions to make the rules.
Sadly, many are too ignorant to see that when you do not defend the rights of all, you lose your own in the process.

For me, it is not so much about gay stuff, it is about people not realizing that their rights are disappearing and they're just ignorant enough to be satisfied with it.
Cheers, Dave

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by artonio7 on Jan 19^th, 2008, 5:41am

..and with this I would suggest that a simple change to the pledge of allegiance be made.

Just one word as it seems to be most appropriate.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God ~~with~~ seeking liberty and justice for all.

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by BarbaraD on Jan 19^th, 2008, 9:01am

I guess next they're gonna say you have to have blonde hair and blue eyes to join the milatary....

Yes, Jonny, you should be pissed off as should all the rest of us.... This is outrageous and should NOT be tolerated!

My opinion -- what has race, color, sexual orientation, religion or anything else got to do with serving your country?

The silent majority better get vocal before we become silent completely. Being afraid to speak out is not really an option any more if we want to live in a FREE country.

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Paul98 on Jan 19^th, 2008, 9:04am

on 01/18/08 at 21:02:10, Jonny wrote:

Bro, the lesson here is the US military had a system and it worked for the most part. It wasn't perfect and there were flaws but it was not a problem for the most part.....Along came Clinton and meddled in it....meddled in a system he openly despised (the military) and created more problems than before he "got involved.

-P.

Modified to add:

If I were in a trench fighting I couldn't give a rats ass if the person next to me was gay, straight, tall, short, red headed or what....just as long as they were shooting in the same direction I was.

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Annette on Jan 19^th, 2008, 9:52am

on 01/19/08 at 09:04:27, Paul98 wrote:

If I were in a trench fighting I couldn't give a rats ass if the person next to me was gay, straight, tall, short, red headed or what....just as long as they were shooting in the same direction I was.

What if the person next to you is English, pretty, with a funny accent, has a knife but wants a gun ? ;;D

( Sorry Paul ! Couldnt resist ! 8) )

Edited to add: Said person may not be shooting in the same direction you were but more like shooting in your direction ..... ;) [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by artonio7 on Jan 19^th, 2008, 10:05am

on 01/19/08 at 09:04:27, Paul98 wrote:

Well if standing up for a persons rights to die along a comrade whilst defending freedom is meddling... My hat goes off to that meddling prik.

Let me try to tell you that because you have green eyes that you can't marry who you choose or fight for your country and see how you'd like it. Some shit needs meddled with.

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Gator on Jan 19^th, 2008, 12:59pm

Dave, because of the mission of the military, it has always had different rules and standards. These are much stricter than those the average civilian has to face. (For example: Show up late or drunk and the worst that would happen to you in the average civilian job is you get fired. In the military you could go to prison.) Anything that would hinder mission effectiveness was not allowed. Prejudice is a powerfully negative and disruptive force. It took a while for blacks to be accepted. Women on naval ships is a relatively new thing. Women pilots in the air force is another example of recent change. I am not defending it, just telling you how it is.

Each branch of the military has it's own department that handles discrimination and such. When I was in the Air Force in the 80's, they had a "Social Actions" division that was outright feared. People, even high ranking people, lost their jobs and/or were sent to jail for racial or sexual discrimination and sexual harassment. I guarantee if they added sexual orientation to their anti-discrimination list and in a very short time, the problem would start to go away.

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Groov on Jan 19^th, 2008, 1:56pm

Thanks for taking the time for the reply Gator.

Never having served, there is good info. for me in your reply.

It's a lot more serious than the average job considering what is on the line !!!

I guess I don't expect everyone to see things my way. But it would be neighborly if they gave others a chance before they wrote them off.

I suppose it is more complex than that, but you never know what you might find if you gave people a chance !!!

Cheers, Dave

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by BarbaraD on Jan 19^th, 2008, 2:16pm

I just have trouble with a nation that discriminates because of color, sex, sexual orientation or anything else. I have friends in all walks of life and I love them all and consider them "people".

When my husband was in the Army (back in the 60s during the start of Viet Nam and the high point of Civil Rights) we were stationed in Europe. He was in a very secretative MOS and we were sorta isolated from the rest of the base (his company's office was off-base and underground - something to do with missles). We were a very close knit bunch. In the company we had two blacks and two gays. As far as I know (and back then I knew everything) there was NEVER any discrimination against any of them. They were family and treated as such. Everyone was more worried about getting their ass shot off in Viet Nam (and they were being sent TDY to Viet Nam).

Because of a few people raising sand about nothing that concerns them at all, we've got a mess and it's affecting out whole military. I'll bet, if truth be known, that the ones that have started this crap never served a day in the military and don't plan to. They just want their 15 minutes in front of a camera. And for that they're ruining the lives of people who do care about our country.

Off soapbox!

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Paul98 on Jan 19^th, 2008, 4:39pm

on 01/19/08 at 10:05:17, artonio7 wrote:

Tony,

What has Bill Clinton done to better the situation of acceptance of gays in the military? Is the situation better now than say 20, 30, 50 years ago? There has always been gay people serving in the armed forces. Clintons "don't ask, don't tell" policy only served Clintons agenda. The man is a sociopath as well as his wife. He used the gays to his political advantage and I think he did diservice to that part of the comunity. He has no more sympathy or care for gay rights as he had for JUANITA BROADDRICK as he left the room after raping her and said "better put some ice on that"

Since I have not been in the military I can only speculate; but I'll bet I'm right (folks that have been in the services please correct me if I am wrong) Right now I'll bet the discharge rate for gay people in the services is higher than at any time in the past due to sexual orientation. If I am wrong, (and judgment will be made by folks that have been in or are in the military) I will start a new thread and apologize on that thread.

As it stands, is the discharge rate in the military higher or lower than it was before Bill clinton ordered his "don't ask, don't tell?" with respect to discharge related to sexual orientation.

Social change starts with society. You can not pass a law and say everyting is fine. I see discrimination every day where I work. I work in a university for crying out loud and I see the hypocracy of the very liberal people I work with make derogitory comments about someones looks, race, sexual orientation and intelligence. They make fun of the custodial staf because they see them as not smart enough. I hear "so and so likes guys" and they shun them, I hear "blacks just don't want to work" It is discusting to me for two reasons. they are hypocrits and they feel themselves superior to others because they have deluded themselves into thinking they are better and know they are right.

If anybody wants to take issue with me please feel free to rip me a new one. I warn you though I have lived the last 25 years in a liberal university setting, putting up with the PC correctness and dealing with it. I am conservative with an open mind. ...............

-P.

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by artonio7 on Jan 19^th, 2008, 7:31pm

Yes and some of the writers of the constitution owned slaves... so what's your point?

with warm regards,
Tony

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by ivanov on Jan 19^th, 2008, 7:39pm

Paul,

Although President Clinton failed the GBLT community
by signing 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' it would be too simplistic
and historically inaccurate to call 'DADT' Clinton's policy.
Clinton promised the gay community that he would lift the
gay ban through executive order. However, once in office he
quickly became mired down in a heated political battle over the issue.
Members of Congress and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, including Senator Sam Nunn,
Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and General Colin Powell,
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, opposed Clinton's plan. He faced a difficult choice
between fulfilling his campaign promise to gay and lesbian voters and appeasing
congressional leaders and his top military advisors.
Clinton announced he would seek a compromise and attempt
to revise the former policy on homosexual service members into a more tolerant
one. After much negotiation between the White House, the Department
of Defense, and Congress, he presented his proposal, which in turn, Congress
heavily revised before codifying "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" into law.
The final version differed markedly from Clinton's original intent. Ironically, it
closely resembled the previous policy's restrictions on homosexual status and
conduct in the military. I am not defending Clinton's failure it this issue but to
blame him exclusively for the policy is also unfair.

Dan

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Jonny on Jan 19^th, 2008, 7:58pm

There you have it, vote Hilliary for more of the same!

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Charlie on Jan 19^th, 2008, 8:21pm

Jonny said it just right.

And oh Yeah....

Damn. Here I thought laying everything that makes the thinkers on the right cringe at Clinton's door ended when the same thinkers discovered that it was Dubya that has a penchant for destroying their own party as well as the Constitution. You never can tell.....

Let's see... Clinton was fought tooth and nail by his own administratioin, the military and everybody else worried about their own precious bodily fluids if those terrible gays were allowed to openly stay in the military. So what developed is this stupid thing.

The meddling was done by those latter shining moral examples on the right that were yelling for his head, not our Bill.

Charlie

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Paul98 on Jan 19^th, 2008, 8:31pm

on 01/19/08 at 19:31:29, artonio7 wrote:

Yes and some of the writers of the constitution owned slaves... so what's your point?

with warm regards,
Tony

Tony..

Seeing as you did not quote me I am assuming your post was directed at me.

Oh Hell, I will take this off the board and PM you!

-P.

Title: Re: Enough is enough!
Post by Ree on Jan 20^th, 2008, 8:30pm

Both of my sons said that stress is so high when it comes to this war, that no one is thinking about sex... I agree that a persons sexual preferance should not matter...

I love that you are so hip jonny and secure with yourself to bring up this issue for others, thanks for that.

love ree