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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Cluster Headache Specific >> TMJ link?
        
(Message started by: southwalessunshine on Jul 10^th, 2007, 8:09am)

Title: TMJ link?
Post by southwalessunshine on Jul 10^th, 2007, 8:09am

I've heard there is a link betwen TMJ and migraine, but am unsure if there's also a link between TMJ and CH. I am pretty certain I have TMJ, I have been to the dentist and doc but each says the other one would have to give a definate diagnosis. It's frustrating! i've been given a bite plate and am seeing if that helps at all.
However if there is a link with migraine, could there be a link with CH? If so how would i get my doc to consider this? has anyone else discovered a link at all, if so how did you go about it and what did the docs suggest? was it successful in even a small way?

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by Redd on Jul 10^th, 2007, 8:13am

Back many moons ago, my CH was mis-diagnosed as TMJ that they thought was caused by a car accident. I wore braces for 2 years in hopes it would adjust my "bite" and stop the headaches (it didn't).

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by southwalessunshine on Jul 10^th, 2007, 8:25am

So there could be a link?
Does anyone know where i can find a good site that lists the symptoms of TMJ? My doc and dentist are of no help.
Just incase anyone here has experience of it, my symptoms are;constant clicking in right side of jaw,
cannot eat things like chewing gum, crusty rolls etc
sometimes that side of the jaw ceases up and I have to carefully unlock it
sometimes after periods of not moving my jaw, on opening my mouth the left sideclicks so loudly everyone in the room hears it
my jaw muscles are extremely over developed and often spasm
my bottom part of my jaw is not in alignment with the top so i cannot bite my teeth together ever, this makes eating a little difficult sometimes

Also recently my doc said he thinks the characteristics of my Ch may be changing as i have had 2 episodes of slight visual disturbance in my left eye immediatley followed by an intense CH. It's not aura as I suffered with aura in migraine as a kid and this is totally different. it's interesting to me that my visual disturbance and the jaw problems are both on the left side! could there be a connection or am I grasping at straws?

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by Bob P on Jul 10^th, 2007, 9:47am

The only link I'm aware of is that CH is often misdiagnosed as TMD (temporal mandibular disorder, TMJ is the joint itself). TMD causes a muscular pain, CH is a neuro-vascular pain. No connection.

BTW - I also had my teeth ground down to adjust my bite in the early years of my CH. 30 years later I still have them.

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by southwalessunshine on Jul 10^th, 2007, 2:14pm

Yeah, the pain I have is def Ch not TMJ headaches. I guess i'll have to write that theory off then ;;D

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by rolo65 on Jul 14^th, 2007, 10:47am

If one were to do some simple deduction it would be apparent that the TMJ (joint) is right next to the temporal ganglion.

I have TMJ on my left side (same as my CH), and the jaw joint has the cushion broken loose so it pops around a lot. My jaw has been bothering me since my late teens and started getting worse right before the CH started.

I’ve seen 3 TMJ specialists and they all made me a dental splint that didn’t really help. My front teeth on the right side were so misaligned that I could not chew with my right side and basically wore out the left side. I finally, out of desperation had the problem tooth pulled and dropped 5 G’s for dental braces.

Through this experience I found that the neurologist said it’s not your jaw causing your CH. The TMJ doctors said “your jaw joint is within tolerance” and you have CH.

I feel the pain in my jaw irritates the trigeminal nerve bringing on the CH. I am now 2.5 years into the braces and my jaw is getting better, and my CH is also getting better.

I have found these doctors are so specialized that they are afraid to step out of their realm to make a general diagnosis. No neurologist I have seen will contribute my CH to my TMJ (not there specialty). Also none of the TMJ specialists will admit that the CH type HA is caused to the TMJ (again not there specialty).

It’s like taking your broken dishwasher to gas station mechanic for repair, they have all the tools but they don’t do that. If you are not dying, you’re just a complainer and the doctors treat you like a cash cow. Like a mechanic will sell you new parts you don’t really need, but he convinces you that it’s necessary. Your car won’t run any better but you will feel better because you think it will save you some hassle down the road.

The money I’ve spent on all doctor bills for doc’s that didn’t help could have paid for my braces. Live and learn I guess! If you broke your toe, you would expect it to hurt. It’s not a far stretch to think if your jaw is bad, you might get headaches from it but the doc’s will not admit to it. Then they try to send you to some BS pain clinic, tell you to deal with the pain and send you another big bill for nothing. The classic catch 22!

I would say follow your heart on how you feel. The doc’s don’t feel your pain, and usually don’t understand what it does to your life. And then you get the bill, and no relief.

PF wishes,

Roland.

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by Sheena on Jul 14^th, 2007, 11:32am

OK this is JUST my opinion and my experience...

I have had severe TMJ since I was 7, in High School it was so bad that I could only eat liquid stuff (and even that hurt). Basically after 12 years and 12 dentists, orthidontists, and TMJ "specialits" someone finally had the brains to take an MRI and realized my jaw joints didn't develope correctly and so it was rubbing bone against bone. So he made a speciall splint for me and now I have no trouble with my jaw.

The first time I ever remember not being in any pain was when I got that splint...I was PF for 3 months....then the beast came and I wished my jaw hurt instead of my head!

I say all of this to say that I don't think TMJ is linked to CH at all. People have mentioned that I may have been in so much pain with TMJ that I did not even realize my head hurt....or I was so drugged I had no idea what was going on. It's a possiblility, but I still don't think there is a link. I got tension headaches and even migraines pretty much all the time, but that's it and I think I would remember a Cluster.

The only link I have found betweeen TMJ and CH is after a bad hit my jaw will be swollen for a while. There have been a few times since my jaw has been "fixed" that my jaw has hurt....but I have not had a hit directly linked to this.

Like I said this is ONLY my experience and my opinion, I could be completely wrong.

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by rolo65 on Jul 14^th, 2007, 11:51am

on 07/14/07 at 11:32:15, Sheena wrote:

since my jaw has been "fixed"

How was it fixed? I would like to get my jaw fixed also. [smiley=laugh.gif]

Good to hear your TMJ is better or fixed,

Roland.

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by Sheena on Jul 14^th, 2007, 12:54pm

[smiley=laugh.gif]

Yeah that's why I said "fixed" just didn't know how else to say it.

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by alienspacebabe on Jul 16^th, 2007, 10:04pm

A bite plate is a good place to start for your TMJ, Roland. From what you said, it sounds like you have some real TMJ issues.

In my experience, my TMJ is not related at all to my CH. My CH was fixed by surgery when I was 17, a fix which lasted 22 years. During that time I had CH.

We have a few dentists here who like to treat TMJ patients. Try to find one. And absolutely, positively avoid TMJ surgery if you possibly can.

Good luck, Roland.

Lizzie

<edited to add "surgery". avoid surgery... DUH @ me.)

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by TonyYZF on Jul 17^th, 2007, 11:11pm

While I went through the typical dentist doctor combinations trying to figure out what the pain in my face head and teeth was, I eventually ended up at a TMJ disorder specialist. I do in fact have TMJ with the popping/locking jaw etc.. HOWEVER; the TMJ specialist was the one who knew what CH was and recommended I see a neuro. He said the pain associated with TMJ would be constant and not come and go like CH's. I do find some irritation associated with my Jaw when my CH is hurting, but I have noticed that the blood vessel right next to my jaw gets thick, sore and rope-like very much like other ones do further forward along my jaw, below my jaw, in my temple, in my eyebrow etc. My teeth and jaw all the way down into my neck are involved with my hits/shadows. I believe this to be vasodialation related. Good luck figuring it out. Personally I would not put much hope in TMJ disorder being the culpret.

PFDAN Tony

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by StressFree on Jul 18^th, 2007, 5:24pm

One of my early mis-diagnosis was TMJ. I did get a few days to a week of relief with some of the treatments oddly enough. The cluster attacks always came back though. Transcutaneous Electric Nerve Stimulation was one of the treatments. They would give mild shock pulses to my jaw and earlobes. This seemed like it would stop the headaches, but they always returned within a few days. A bite plate was made for me by a different dentist. Again, it seemed to throw off the cluster attacks for a while (week or so), but they returned as always. I believe the TMJ is an agrivating factor to the cluster headaches. As someone else mentioned, perhaps it's more of a trigger rather than a cause. Colds/flu is another thing many of us believe to be a trigger. I do still use a home TENS machine to massage my shoulders, neck and jaw muscles when I am in a cluster cycle. It seems to help in my case. I believe it interupts the nerve paths and helps to get things back to normal. Best of luck. Please do let us know if getting your TMJ in control helps with your clusters. Rich

Title: Re: TMJ link?
Post by Lotus on Jul 18^th, 2007, 7:32pm

Hello Sunshine

I dont think there is any causal link between TMJ and CH. However, I believe that CH is often misdiagnosed as TMJ or dental problems initially due to the involvement of the trigeminal nerve.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b149/bargainbazzar/untitled.jpg

During CH attack the trigeminal nerve is activated ( among a whole host of other things ) and depends on which branch is active as to where one feels the pain goes. The most commonly affected branch is the opthalmic nerve therefore its most common to feel pain behind the eye. If the mandibular branch is affected also one will feel pain along the jaw and in the teeth.

If you go to a GP and tell him/her you feel pain in distribution of the mandular nerve, you will most likely get diagnosed with TMJ or dental problems, as those are much much more common than CH. Obviously then fixing the TMJ or the teeth wont help much.

Its possible to have BOTH CH and TMJ. Fixing the jaw then will help the TMJ but still wont do much for the headaches.

Apart from that I havent come across any evidence that TMJ causes CH or vice versa.

Take care and painfree wishes.

PS: edited to add picture