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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Cluster Headache Specific >> A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
        
(Message started by: mabus on Jun 3^rd, 2007, 7:34pm)

Title: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by mabus on Jun 3^rd, 2007, 7:34pm

We all seem to be a little different, though we share so much.
When a hit gets to the point where your eye starts tearing, how many Kips is that on your scale? For me, it's about a 5, maybe 5.5 - I rarely get any sinus or tearing issues below that level.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by ClusterChuck on Jun 3^rd, 2007, 7:42pm

Yup, that is about what it is for me, too.

Chuck

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by George_J on Jun 3^rd, 2007, 7:46pm

Yeah, somewhere around a 6. Sounds about right.

Best,

George

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by Brewcrew on Jun 3^rd, 2007, 8:54pm

I'd say a 5 or 6.

Haven't had one of those in awhile. Had to think for a minute.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by Guiseppi on Jun 3^rd, 2007, 9:25pm

I'll check in with a 5 also. The red droopy eye starts before the ch, but the tearing don't start until about 5

Guiseppi

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by taraann on Jun 4^th, 2007, 7:33am

Sometimes a tearing eye means nothing nada zip zero for me other than to scare the crap outta me.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by puppetonastring on Jun 4^th, 2007, 7:40am

I've had it go both ways. The first where the tearing is just happening during shadow. The second usually starts at the onset of full bloom and that will usually (for me) be around a 6.5.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by swimchica623 on Jun 4^th, 2007, 9:35am

I'm with the last two posters...its inconsistant. While we are on the eye topic, the red eye thing is even stranger with me (my theory with its inconsistancy is because I don't smoke...less irritation?)...sometiemes I'll go through a period of minor shadows, on and off for a few hours, look in the mirror and RED. Other times I might have a few hits, even bad ones that it doesn't get too watery, and will get pretty red, then I'll have one that its super watery and all the red will be gone. So for me it doesn't start at a particular level, really can be there (or not there) at any one, same with the red eye....
Lisa

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by taraann on Jun 4^th, 2007, 9:50am

yep I can get a k10 and have no watering sometimes or have my eye pour water. also I have never had my eye get red. weird how it varies from person to person or from hit to hit huh :-/

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by LindsayLoo on Jun 4^th, 2007, 3:25pm

on 06/04/07 at 07:40:10, puppetonastring wrote:

I've had it go both ways. The first where the tearing is just happening during shadow. The second usually starts at the onset of full bloom and that will usually (for me) be around a 6.5.

I'm with this one! My eye tears inconsistently, but my eyelid really starts to tear, gets droppy & swells at around a k6 if it isn't already that is.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by BarbaraD on Jun 4^th, 2007, 5:38pm

My eye usually (and I repeat "usually") starts swelling and then tearing BEFORE anything else happens. My assistant could tell before I could that I was about to get hit and could get everyone outta my way. I wouldn't even notice anything was wrong until it hit (unless she told me).

It's weird how we all do things differenly - except hurt...

Hugs BD

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by ClusterChuck on Jun 4^th, 2007, 5:45pm

on 06/04/07 at 17:38:33, BarbaraD wrote:

My assistant could tell before I could that I was about to get hit

That has always blown my mind (what little I have) when those that are close to you, or know you well, can tell BEFORE you can, that you are about to get hit!

Freekin' AMAZING!!!

Chuck

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by GrandPotentate on Jun 4^th, 2007, 10:52pm

Tears and a runny nose become significant for me around a 5. A 7 is usually a three-hanky-soaked affair. I can't believe how much water can come outta my head in so short a time.

Sometimes I have a weird brief period just before the hit where I really feel GREAT! I never notice this while it is happening, but have recalled it as the pain starts building.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by Kate in Oz on Jun 4^th, 2007, 11:02pm

Yeah, I'd have to agree it's about a 5-6 for me.

But then I have a droopy eye throughout - during and often after a hit. I seem to shadow (all day) more often than get a full on hit (only about 1 hit a night or every second/third) - I guess the drugs are working (??verap) but the light sensitivity is all day every day until the cycle ends.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by gore2424 on Jun 4^th, 2007, 11:55pm

at a 3-4 (which I am at almost 24/7) my right eye tears but of course it should after the operation that left my right side face numb forever Terry

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by puppetonastring on Jun 5^th, 2007, 8:16am

I'm noticing that for me the phsiology and predictability of a full hit changes as the CH cycle matures to peek.

When not at peek, or close to peek, precursors and regularity seem more the norm.
At or close to peek, especially when shadows are 24/7, it's just a party and seems anything can happen at any time.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by LeeS on Jun 5^th, 2007, 10:24am

Another interesting topic. Here's a relatively old report in respect of autonomic symptoms (or lack of), but it got me thinking:

Quote:

Cluster headache without autonomic symptoms: why is it different?
Martins IP, Gouveia RG, Parreira E.
Centro de Estudos Egas Moniz, Instituto de Medicina Molecular, Lisbon Faculty of Medicine, Hospital de Santa Maria, Lisboa, Portugal.

BACKGROUND: Some patients with otherwise typical cluster headache (CH) have persistent attacks free of cranial autonomic symptoms (CAS). The factors responsible for this atypical presentation are not known.
OBJECTIVES: To identify factors associated to the absence of CAS in patients with CH.
METHODS: A prospective series of 157 patients with the diagnosis of CH was analyzed, comparing 148 typical CH patients with 9 CH patients without CAS.
RESULTS: Patients without CAS reported significantly less intense attacks (P = .003) when compared to those with CAS. There was also a tendency (not reaching statistical significance) for a higher frequency of females and chronic CH among those without CAS. Otherwise, there were no differences between the two groups (in age, duration of illness, follow-up time, attack duration or frequency, nor side or site of pain). A logistic regression analysis showed that only pain intensity could explain the difference between the two groups, since the other explanatory variables were also associated with different intensity of attacks.
CONCLUSIONS: These results support the hypothesis that CH without cranial autonomic symptoms represents a milder form of CH.

I always assumed that the extent of CASs per attack were related to the intensity of pain i.e. the higher the Kip level, the more autonomic symptoms one experienced. I now realise that for me (personally) most of my CASs are pretty random i.e. I often get the runny (or blocked) nose and flushing/facial sweating at both low or high pain levels, with apparently no correlation (I've never really checked the droopy or red eye thing, or pupil dilation though).

However, as alluded to in this thread, for me it is the lacrimation (tearing of the eye) that appears to have a direct correlation to pain levels. The higher the Kip level the more my eye spurts; it's like peeling very strong onions, albeit only on one side. This suggests to me that the pain of CH may be more closely related to the cranial parasympathetic activation that causes lacrimation compared with all the others, if indeed there is a different mechanism of action. So does the pain cause lacrimation or is it vice versa?

And just to throw a spanner in the works, what about silent attacks i.e. those with plenty of CAS activity yet no pain? How many people here ever get any of those, especially those who have not tried tryptamines?

Having done a little more digging recently there appear to be three key components associated with the manifestation of CASs, as follows:

Parasympathetic activation: the tearing, red-eye and runny nose.
Parasympathetic mediated effect: the blocked nose, eyelid swelling and facial sweating.
Sympathetic effect: the constricted pupil and droopy eyelid.

Not sure where that gets us other than if my personal hypothesis is correct (i.e. more pain = more tearing) then presumably we should also get a runnier nose and a redder eye at higher Kip levels. Maybe worth monitoring in future but as Mabus said here, it appears that we're all different, one way or another.

-Lee

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by taraann on Jun 5^th, 2007, 4:20pm

"silent cluster attack" I've had a few but it's been a couple years since I've had one.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by BarbaraD on Jun 5^th, 2007, 6:06pm

Back when I was episodic (many moons ago) I'd get a cramp in my ear right before I'd get hit (usually high on the Kip scale - the harder the cramp - the higher the hit). That was my warning sign.

Now I may go from 0-10 without warning or I may get a little warning - I never know. It's just a darn crap shoot.

One day at a time..... ::)

Hugs BD

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by ClusterChuck on Jun 5^th, 2007, 6:17pm

Ahhhh!!! That Barbara!!! Bless her heart (hee hee), she IS special!

Chuck

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by GrandPotentate on Jun 6^th, 2007, 10:50pm

And just to throw a spanner in the works, what about silent attacks i.e. those with plenty of CAS activity yet no pain? How many people here ever get any of those, especially those who have not tried tryptamines?

I had about 4 years between the last two cycles, but had some of these in between. Everything but the pain (or maybe a 1-2). Maybe I had those for a long time before my first cycle, and just didn't notice? Pretty spooky, but I almost convinced myself the real deal was over.... and then...Pow!

Jon

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by pieface_49 on Jun 7^th, 2007, 1:03am

Depends upon where I am in cycle. In mid-cycle, probably a bad sign. During end of cycle, is just a shadow. Have not been teary eyed since April and blessed to say so. F'in Chuck is still here? F'er must love his job?

Love Y'all,
Pie

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by Ray on Jun 7^th, 2007, 11:20am

on 06/04/07 at 07:33:23, taraann wrote:

Sometimes a tearing eye means nothing nada zip zero for me other than to scare the crap outta me.

Yes, me too. Sometimes I get it with a shadow that goes nowhere. I go grab my O2 and Imitrex in case the beast wants to dance.

Wishing you PF days and nights,

Ray

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by Marine1 on Jun 9^th, 2007, 8:29am

For me, when it starts ramping up I can tell if its going to be around a 4-6 if I get no tearing at that pain level. If my eye starts to tear it going to the the 7-10 zone without question.

Title: Re: A Tearing Eye Equates To What Kip For You?
Post by midwestbeth on Jun 9^th, 2007, 10:51am

on 06/09/07 at 08:29:47, Marine1 wrote:

For me, when it starts ramping up I can tell if its going to be around a 4-6 if I get no tearing at that pain level. If my eye starts to tear it going to the the 7-10 zone without question.

Lately, the tearing has been the indicator for me that it's gonna be a bad one.

I have had the tearing at lower levels in the past. If you asked me this question 6 months ago, my answer then would have been 5-6.

Beth