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        Cluster Headache Help and Support >> Cluster Headache Specific >> Kip 10?
        
(Message started by: MJ on Feb 4^th, 2006, 5:21pm)

Title: Kip 10?
Post by MJ on Feb 4^th, 2006, 5:21pm

Pain level 7
Wake up, sleep not an option, take the beast for a walk and finally fall into bed exhausted

Pain level 8
Time to scream, yell, curse, head bang, rock, whatever work's

Pain level 9
The "Why me?" syndorme starts to set in

Pain level 10
Major pain, screaming, head banging, ER trip. Depressed. Suicidal.

How would you describe a 10 in short summary after experiencing CH for years?

After my diagnosis I never again went to an emergency room, Never bang my head, seldom scream, No longer overly depressed, Never suicidal.

After around 20 years I found meds to create more mental anquish. I also actually found it not easy but easier to deal with the kip 10 than say a kip 8. Due to the fact at kip-8 you are still somewhat aware of your surroundings.

When the pain is at its highest the mental concentration and the knowing it will pass is also at its highest.

So I would now say

Pain level 10 = Extreme and complete pain, Extreme mind set, Complete and total trance state, Other worlds cease to exist, There is only you in the universe and your pain, Both become one and each overides the other.

Anyone else care to adjust the K-10 description?
I have often thought about this but still cant adequately describe it.
Its obviously individual to each of us but knowing that each of us have found a way to deal with the extremes can it be summarized in so many words?

MJ

Title: Somewhere in there belongs the word...
Post by Richr8 on Feb 4^th, 2006, 5:32pm

... "submission" and commitment to just hang on with all that you have and drive through It's beyond feeling. I'll agree on the headbanging, no screaming, although a lot of weeping and moaning goes on.

Very difficult to describe.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Karla on Feb 4^th, 2006, 5:50pm

I like it the way it stands currently in original form. That is how I find my 10. Very extreame, head banging, suicidal, etc.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by kayarr on Feb 4^th, 2006, 7:02pm

I know I am here almost in my hunny's behalf but he describes it as perfect pain. That it encompasses all of the elements that make pain what it is...ie. hot, cold, sharp, dull, pinpoint, radiant....

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Jonny on Feb 4^th, 2006, 7:07pm

on 02/04/06 at 17:21:13, MJ wrote:

Anyone else care to adjust the K-10 description?

Nope....10 is 10

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by burnt-toast on Feb 5^th, 2006, 8:42am

Until CH, I thought pain was having some fingers severed, breaking a few ribs, having regrafted bone fragments removed from my foot or breaking an arm or leg.

But after experiencing CH attacks where I had to constantly remind myself to breathe while fearing that the indescribable/unearthly pain would stop my heart...

I always felt a special notch could be added to the top of the scale. I think CH can deliver pain beyond KIP10.

Tom

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by thenucman on Feb 5^th, 2006, 12:36pm

Almost all of your descriptions are good.

The perfect pain .. I like that.

About once a year, I'll hit a blockbuster. It's the one I will remember as redefining my '10'. It's usually on the road somewhere, no O2, already used whatever meds I had with me, probably between 12am and 2am.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by sandie99 on Feb 6^th, 2006, 11:48am

Now when I look at those descriptions of a kip 10, I've had it few times. The perfect pain... good title for a book!

Sanna

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by FramCire on Feb 6^th, 2006, 11:52am

on 02/05/06 at 08:42:13, burnt-toast wrote:

I had gallstones and thought that pain was bad (4 ER trips over 9 months). I have broken bones in my fingers and ankle before. I had 2 disks in my neck need to be replaced and shooting nerve pain down my arm.

The pain I experienced in my first cycle (last year) was worse than all of those. If I had the gallstone pain now, I wouldn't even go to the ER. The kip scale does a good job describing it for those of us who have experienced it, but I wonder if a non-CHer would really understand even reading those descriptions.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 6^th, 2006, 12:10pm

can't remember which one the "bobs" said it, but I've sinced loved the word "exquisite". kind of "silence of the lambs"-like....

scott

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by imnotbub on Feb 6^th, 2006, 2:45pm

on 02/06/06 at 11:52:33, FramCire wrote:

The kip scale does a good job describing it for those of us who have experienced it, but I wonder if a non-CHer would really understand even reading those descriptions.

Not only do I believe that someone who never had a CH could never, I mean NEVER understand the magnitude of the pain, but not until you have talked to other CH sufferers can you utilize the scale somewhat accurately. I have stated in a previous post that when I first came to this group I was sure that I suffered from kip 10's during a cycle, but with the education that reading others posts brings, I now realize that I probably have never had a CH go past an 8, and I am certainly hoping that never changes.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Gator on Feb 7^th, 2006, 2:40am

I think the definition of a Kip 10 is pretty much dead on. During the worst of attacks I scream, cry, curse, bang my head with my fist and wish for death. I'm ashamed to say, I actually begged my wife to shoot me on at least one occassion.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by maffumatt on Feb 7^th, 2006, 3:55am

it just plain hurts, I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by thebbz on Feb 7^th, 2006, 8:15pm

;)
I remember my last "10". I was flopping on the floor slingin snot and sounding like Linda Blair in The Exorcist.
All the imitrex was jabbed and not working. I suppose it was about and hour ....I forgot to breathe. The body has ways of dealing with the beast. I woke up with my wife and the neighbor dragging my carcass out the door for the ER trip.That's a 10. I won't soon forget the look on my wifes face as I come too.
I like the analogy of the pain is comparable to amputation without anethesia. :P I noted this gets their attention and there are no mention of meegraines after that description. 8)
All the best
jb

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by mynm156 on Feb 7^th, 2006, 8:18pm

KIP 10

PRAY FOR DEATH! TEARS!!

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Dragnlance on Feb 10^th, 2006, 9:01pm

Quote:

I can say that I have begged my wife to shoot me many many times. I even asked my boss once when I got hit at work.

I one time screamed at an ER nurse who got snotty with me and told me that 10 would be like cutting your arm off. I screamed at her to cut my goddamn arm off as it MIGHT distract me a little from the monster in my head. (this was the day I found my first HA doctor, as he head me and sent the nurse elsewhere and took care of me)

I have run my hand thu gears, been hit by a car and a truck and I can tell you NOTHING is like a kip 10 monster.

I believe that non CH sufferers, (we should call them Muggles, like Harry Potter and Geocachers do) would never understand some of the posts above, although we all know exactly what we are trying to convey.

I would call it
Pain to the exclusion of all else, all thought centered on making it go away and will attempt anything in the world to make it stop, even to ending one's life.

[smiley=twocents.gif] [smiley=twocents.gif]
Dragnlance

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by agonymum on Feb 11^th, 2006, 7:58am

after giving birth twice in excruciating pain for 24 hours with my first child , i can honestly say that i would rather give birth every day for the rest of my life rather than suffer the pure pain of a kip 10 for one minute .

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Gator on Feb 11^th, 2006, 11:09pm

on 02/07/06 at 03:55:56, maffumatt wrote:

it just plain hurts, I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone.

I used to say that. Now I have a list containing selected insurance company bean counters, administrators and sell out doctors that conspire to deny us the meds we need in the amounts needed. There's probably a few drug company people that could join the list as well. I'd like to watch that over and over with sadistic glee until they forked over the drugs.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Dragnlance on Feb 12^th, 2006, 11:58am

you may want to add a few employers to the list, so they also understand what it is we go thru!

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by vig on Feb 13^th, 2006, 7:57am

"You’re on 10, all the way up, all the way up...Where can you go from there? Nowhere. What we do, is if we need that extra push over the cliff...Eleven."
Nigel Tufnel

I think I've had 11s...
;;D

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by karrie35 on Feb 13^th, 2006, 11:28am

To me a "10" is beyond your threshold of pain.
It is off the charts.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by seasonalboomer on Feb 13^th, 2006, 11:33am

doesn't anything beyond a "10" actually imply that one's gray matter has actually shot out through the eye socket and made a mess of the room?

:)

scott

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Dragnlance on Feb 13^th, 2006, 4:03pm

THAT HAPPENED TO ME!!!!

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Shaz on Feb 14^th, 2006, 6:35am

I relate to JBs description of the Excorsist.......

My daughter always closes the windows so the neighbours cant hear...... She says they will either think I am being slaughtered or having the most incredible sex.........

Shaz :-*

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Ghost on Feb 14^th, 2006, 11:45am

I did find this helped to calm the insurance bean counters and non sufferers to understand a little better. I know everyone is different but I repeat I use this scale and hints and even had 3 docs ask for copies for there use. It to me as I tell them a guideline not an exact. For every sufferer there will be variations. I tried giving 1st doc kip scale and he told me it didnt make sense to him. That is why I came up with this and these are as I told him what I experience. Also what I could gather by talking to others.

CLUSTER HEADACHES PAIN SCALE

Pain level 0
No pain, life is beautiful

Pain level 1
Very minor, Short lived ache, very slight pressure. Kind of like leaning against a sharp edge of a wall on your temple.

Pain level 2
Low pain level. Similar to wearing a very tight hat while leaning against a sharp edge of a wall on your temple.

Pain level 3
Start at Level 2 and add, Almost a pulsing sensation, but drawn out a little. Just above a dull warm pain, but not a real distraction. Still able to function, but definitely a problem.

Pain level 4
Eye may water some here and above. Sharp but not really a burning sensation, but defiantly warm. Real desire to apply pressure to area.

Pain level 5
Very sharp pain, almost burning sensation, but still able to function at a very low level. Absolute need to hold area, also some rocking.

Pain level 6
Very sharp and definite burning, rocking necessary, pressure like heated fork pushing against temple/eye area.

Pain level 7
Repeat Sharp for rest, Burning more intense, similar to the heated fork or skewer actually penetrating into the skull but not through it, possible spreading to cheek and jaw area like a mild to bad toothache.

Pain level 8
Pain now at a level of a red hot poker replaced by the heated fork or skewer, burrowing from temple to eye. Possible tightness and burning in the jaw area, similar to a severe toothache.

Pain level 9
Similar to Level 8 but pain now spreading to cheek and beyond also sensation of intense pressure from inside trying to push out.

Pain level 10
Major pain, screaming, head banging, ER trip. Depressed. Suicidal. From a Level 9 you now will experience the feeling you scull is being split open and salt being poured into it. Nothing to compare to this level. Can result in Blackouts. Dangerously intense.

Helpful Hints

• At each level see prior and add to where you are.
• Most attacks last from 15 min. to 3+ hours.
• O2 is a valid and preferred treatment at most levels of pain to end(abort) a Cluster Attack sooner. Usually administered at 10-15 lpm with a Non re-breather mask.
• For most it is also necessary to use Imitrex injection.
• Most oral meds and inhaled meds will not affect the attack you are in now, but if taken prior to attack may result in some relief.
• The Levels listed here are a guideline, taken from my own experiences and from information gathered from others.
• For most the attack ramps up rapidly and subsides almost as fast, but it may take several hours to recover from it. Very energy draining.
• Caffeine may also assist in aborting an attack.
• Most Cluster Headache sufferers are misdiagnosed for many years, some with sinus headaches, tension headaches, migraines, and even toothaches/infections.
• Cluster headaches can and often are accompanied by other types of headaches, Sinus, Stress, Migraine, and others making it hard to detect and/or diagnose.
• Cluster Headaches are real and should never be considered a minor inconvenience, The cause is still being debated but there is no known cure as of yet.
• Remember you are the one suffering, don’t let others tell you how much it doesn’t hurt!
• Shadow; some of the symptoms but without a measurable amount of pain(pressure).
• Twinge; Short burst of pain usually to fast to produce side effects.
• Episodic; Episodes of Cluster headaches that are under 1 year in length, or with 30 days or more during a calendar year of being Pain Free.
• Chronic; Episodes of Cluster headaches that are over 1 year in length, or with less than 30 days during a calendar year of being Pain Free.
• There are various methods and treatments, both conventional and non-conventional. Overall it seems Oxygen at a higher rate while using a Non re-breather mask seems to be the most effective.
• Some people experience Cluster attacks as a result of a trigger ie. alcohol, smoking, foods, ect…
• Never let a doctor, or other medical professional dismiss it as psychosomatic, or imagined pain.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by StressFree on Feb 15^th, 2006, 3:37pm

I was about to do a run-on commentary like I tend too, but I realized I actually agree with Jonny (second time, this is scary) - 10 is 10!

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by BlueMeanie on Feb 17^th, 2006, 6:58pm

on 02/07/06 at 02:40:16, Gator wrote:

DITTO... right on Gator.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by zwibbs/Scott on Feb 20^th, 2006, 2:32am

In suffering for 28 years, I've had my share of kip 10's. They suck. I've never gone to the emergency room, but I did not take a hell of alot of medications either. In other words I was an airhead. The times I experienced a 10---I would put a dampened towel to my face and muffle my screams. This really troubled my daughter, because the first time I screamed she was 7 years old. She came downstairs with tears in her eyes and stood in the corner and watched me in horror. Now that she is in College she has read this site and understands that I am one of thousands of people who suffer through these damn things.As for the numerical code or name---who cares---they are the most brutal of all the attacks !

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Dragnlance on Feb 20^th, 2006, 9:43pm

Quote:

As for the numerical code or name---who cares---they are the most brutal of all the attacks !

Right on!!!

Dragn

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Redd715 on Feb 20^th, 2006, 10:03pm

on 02/14/06 at 06:35:40, Shaz wrote:

or having the most incredible sex.........

Shaz :-*

My brothers said that this is what I sounded like while getting a K8 during the planning of Mom's funeral. Said it sounded like a 20 minute orgasm.

All could say was well ...it wasn't... :'(

The K10's I've had were when Megan was very young. crawling on hands and knees dragging my head along the floor begging my ex husband to please just shoot me, remove my head make it end...would be then he's pack the babies up in the car and hawl me off to the ER, I swear sometimes he thought I should be commited to the psych ward.

Then he went threw his first cycle 4 years after we split up. I think he gained a new respect for me, for the years he thought I was ....and I quote....a "wimp".

Pegg

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Dragnlance on Feb 20^th, 2006, 11:06pm

Quote:

years he thought I was ....and I quote....a "wimp".

He said that to you????

Let me at him! I'll kick his ass!!

Dragn

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by haubels on Mar 6^th, 2006, 5:31pm

Think of when you eat ice cream to fast or drink a cold beverage to quickly. "Brain freeze",you don't often think about how intense and painful they really are. Now that you've thought of that, the next time you need to describe a"10" tell them it's like a "Brain Freeze" that last for 1/2 hr., 1 1/2 hr. ect. Now there's a common point that everyone can identify with.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by kayarr on Mar 6^th, 2006, 7:15pm

"Think of when you eat ice cream to fast or drink a cold beverage to quickly. "Brain freeze",you don't often think about how intense and painful they really are. Now that you've thought of that, the next time you need to describe a"10" tell them it's like a "Brain Freeze" that last for 1/2 hr., 1 1/2 hr. ect. Now there's a common point that everyone can identify with. "

That is what J. said it was kinda like to me......still can barely imagine.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by rapunzel on Mar 11^th, 2006, 10:22pm

on 02/11/06 at 07:58:12, agonymum wrote:

YES YES YES! I have given birth naturally three times- oh yes, bad bad pain for sure. I would rather give birth nightly than have the Beast explode from my head. Definitely. I have said such on several episodes.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by DonnaHar on Mar 12^th, 2006, 8:55pm

The top is the top. 10 is the top.

I can't really describe a 10 because it goes beyond the ability to think....it is a no man's land. It is floating in unbearable pain. You are a worn out rag....no will, just a wimpering being in the grips of crushing, burning, stabbing pain, begging that it end no matter how it happened..

I've been to the ER....with a friend/supporter leading me to the car. Trouble is, by the time you wait to get in, the headache is quickly on its' way out and the docs rarely get to see what we suffer.

Kip suffered terribly with CH and he knew where the top of the scale was. He was right on the money.

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by Barry_T_Coles on Mar 16^th, 2006, 8:38pm

A 10 to me is when my mind can't take it any more and I pass out.

Quite simply as Ghost said.
Pain level 10
Major pain, screaming, head banging, ER trip. Depressed. Suicidal. From a Level 9 you now will experience the feeling you scull is being split open and salt being poured into it. Nothing to compare to this level. Can result in Blackouts. Dangerously intense.

As DonnaHar stated.
I've been to the ER....with a friend/supporter leading me to the car. Trouble is, by the time you wait to get in, the headache is quickly on its' way out and the docs rarely get to see what we suffer.
Fortunately for me my Doc did see what was going on and that was when I and my Doc at last knew what was happening to me.

What I do know is that here we all understand where we are at and that's what makes life somewhat bearable again.

Kind Regards
Barry

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by unsolved1 on Mar 16^th, 2006, 9:22pm

I've probably had more than my share of 10's. :(

Thank god that is not the norm for me now.

Goodluck everybody that has to deal with a 10 !

UNsolved

Title: Re: Kip 10?
Post by jon019 on Mar 16^th, 2006, 10:13pm

have had only a handfull of 10's. the kind of pain that causes one to wish for death and wonder how ANYONE can LIVE thorough pain like that. makes an 8 or 9 ALMOST bearable because it aint a 10! have found that a 10 is a bitch with more to serve in that it means a 4-8
hour hit instead of the usual 1-2 hours. when you get to "why me" over and over again, that's a 10. interesting comment on breathing- can't describe much better the intensity than when you have to REMIND yourself to breath! expect to use that on the next knothead who says to me, yeah I had one of those once.

this thread is amazing. thank you all. best descriptions I have seen yet.

Jon