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(Message started by: Not4Hire on Nov 7th, 2007, 10:41pm)
Title: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Not4Hire on Nov 7th, 2007, 10:41pm
This is a copy-and-paste of a post I made on the ClusterBuster's site:

Quote:
Hey all,
It occurs to me that this subject was brought up at the Austin meeting
and I haven't seen any follow-up on this forum.

For those who couldn't be there: There is a organ donation "bank" that
keeps track of rare (and not-so-rare) diseases and accepts brains
donated from people who have passed on for examination and research.

I can't remember the institution involved, but I would like to get
more information. If anyone can provide more details, please post it
as I am sure there are folks here who also be willing to advance the
research.

I , for one, have a clean one-owner brain with relatively low mileage
that, unfortunately has some kind of "defect". I would be glad to
donate to any organization which could find a use for it when I am
done with it.

Anybody?


It occurs to me some folks here might be interested in this.

best, notfer

edit: to add this: THANKS PAT!


Quote:
On Oct 19, 2007 11:09 AM, John <thisreallyisjohn@yahoo.com> wrote:
Greetings All!
For those who are interested in donating their brains
for science and in particular for helping with cluster
headache research, you can indeed arrange donation to
my hospital. The Harvard Brain Tissue Resource Center
is proably the largest/most important on the East
Coast and one of the largest in the world. We might
even have several brains of people with CH already!
I'll try to ask over there before the conference about
this.
Here are the websites on how to donate and on the
Center:
http://www.brainbank.mclean.org/Donate.html
http://www.brainbank.mclean.org

Please donate!
best,
John
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 8th, 2007, 1:03am
Sure, if it's for legitimate research, and not just another jugged brain collection a la' the nineteenth-century freak-show assemblages that still moulder in some of our institutions of higher learning, unused and unexamined.

Presuming I'm dead, I won't be using it anyway.  

Best,

George
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Brewcrew on Nov 8th, 2007, 7:52am
http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/marty-feldman-13907.jpg

Dr. Frankenstein: Igor, would you mind telling me whose brain I did put in?

Igor: And you won't be angry?

Dr. Frankenstein: I will NOT be angry.

Igor: Abby someone.

Dr. Frankenstein: Abby someone. Abby who?

Igor: Abby Normal.

Dr. Frankenstein: Abby Normal?

Igor: I'm almost sure that was the name.

Dr. Frankenstein: Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half foot long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Bob P on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:45am
Many years ago Drummer asked Doc Goadsby what he needed most in his research.  His response was cluster brains to study.

We tried to convince Elaine to leave her brain to him.  I think shes still looking for it.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Ghost on Nov 8th, 2007, 12:37pm
I went in for a CT scan 3 years ago and after it was done I asked the doc if they found a problem(because I had to do it 2 times) he said they didnt find anything, I asked so nothing wrong? He replied he didnt find anything. After returning home I realized I missed a chance of a life time!

Mike
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Maffumatt on Nov 8th, 2007, 1:12pm

on 11/08/07 at 12:37:15, Ghost wrote:
I went in for a CT scan 3 years ago and after it was done I asked the doc if they found a problem(because I had to do it 2 times) he said they didnt find anything, I asked so nothing wrong? He replied he didnt find anything. After returning home I realized I missed a chance of a life time!

Mike



Maybe because he didn't find anything?

sorry I couldn't resist.....
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by fubar on Nov 8th, 2007, 7:34pm
Dr. Sewell says that brain bank does not have any way to track which brains had CH.  They only track certain things, and CH isn't one of them.  He fears that if you donate your brain there, it would not contribute anything to CH research since they can't even tell Dr. Sewell if any of the brains there had the problem.  It's not something they can just add to the list.  he says Dr. Goadsby may eventually start up a brain bank for this purpose.



Quote:
So my concern is that you'd all donate your brains to Harvard, then I'd call them in ten years and ask them how many cluster headache brains they had, and they'd again say, "no idea!" Which isn't too useful for any of us.

-Fu

edited because I can't spell
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Jonny on Nov 8th, 2007, 7:58pm

on 11/08/07 at 13:12:24, Maffumatt wrote:
Maybe because he didn't find anything?

sorry I couldn't resist.....


BAWAHHHHH  [smiley=crackup.gif] [smiley=bow.gif]
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 8:55pm

Brain autopsy can only find structural abnormality, not functional abnormality.

If you have had a MRI or PET scan and there was nothing abnormal seen such as enlarged areas or structural deviation or something similar, then no one will be able to see anything different chopping into it.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by KJ on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:09pm
Hey Annette, will it ever be possible to fire electricity through a 'donated' brain to see how it works? If not, why not?

Just wondering.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:15pm

Uhmmm ... it depends on whose brain it is ! Last I heard electricity doesnt travel through wood  ;;D







Joking !

Electricity can only be conducted along live tissues.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:18pm

Otherwise firing electricity through a brain is called ECT - electroconvulsive treatment or more widely known as electric shock treatment.

Its not done to see how the brain works though, just to " jumpstart " the wirey circuit.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Maffumatt on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:19pm
Dr. Goadsby found abnormalities in the hypothalamus, both in structure and in function. Something about an extra layer of grey matter cells. Is that worth studying?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Maffumatt on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:24pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/380497.stm
In the past, high-resolution brain scans have shown no abnormalities in the brain structure of cluster headache sufferers.

But using the latest imaging techniques, Professor Goadsby and colleagues found an increase of grey matter in an area of the brain known as the hypothalamus on the side where the headache occurs.

Whereas standard high resolution scans take a picture of the brain that doctors can examine, the new technique takes pictures of many brains.

A computer then analyses the pictures down to the finest detail, making extremely subtle differences apparent.

Because the differences were seen both when the patients were studied while they had a headache and also in a headache-free state, changes are likely to be permanent.

brain scan
The new scanning technique revealed abnormalities in the hypothalamus
Professor Goadsby said: "We also found that the area of the brain where these structural abnormalities were seen, the hypothalamus, is the same area of the brain where functional studies show that activity is abnormal during the headache state.

"This complete correlation of functional and structural abnormality is striking."

The hypothalamus is the part of the brain associated with circadian rhythms - the 24 hour rhythm of the human body.

"Our results demonstrate for the first time the precise location in the brain involved in cluster headaches and help to explain why this condition shows such striking seasonal variation and clock-like regularity," said Professor Goadsby.

"The findings have profound implications for understanding how the brain is affected in primary headaches."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/380000/images/_380497_brain150.jpg
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by KJ on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:25pm
Ok....then I guess I'm stunned that people have artificial limbs that are being controlled by natural electric impulses.

I must be stupid.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:26pm

Its definitely worth studying Matt, the problem is its not established that whether its these abnormality that causes CH or whether CH causes these, ie the question of the egg and the chicken, and how significant is this change because not all CHers have this.

For comparison, they found a while ago that people with chronic mental illnesses such as schizophrenia and bipolar have a larger hippocampus area compared to normal people. At first they thought it was this abnormality that caused the condition. However, recently they found out that it was the illness itself that caused this area to hypertrophy ( ie become enlarged ). On top of it, to confuse even further, not everyone develops this abnormality either.

Brain imaging is a very new field.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Maffumatt on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:28pm
All the more reason to study brains from CHers...right?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:31pm

on 11/08/07 at 21:25:50, KJ wrote:
Ok....then I guess I'm stunned that people have artificial limbs that are being controlled by natural electric impulses.

I must be stupid.



Not at all KJ, limbs are totally different in structures to the brain. The functions are very different too.

Limbs are basically mechanical beings that can be physically controlled by simple switches on and off, such as " bend this, release this, open this, close this ...." . Brain functions are much much more complex, we dont really understand how the brain works yet.

Artificial limbs cant yet have all the normal functions of a normal limbs such as temperature and touch sensation.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:33pm

on 11/08/07 at 21:28:26, Maffumatt wrote:
All the more reason to study brains from CHers...right?



Absolutely, but first one needs to understand how a CH brain works, and you cant learn how a brain works just by cutting into a dead one.

Thats why functional brain scans such as PET are so important.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by KJ on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:35pm

on 11/08/07 at 21:15:17, Annette wrote:
Electricity can only be conducted along live tissues.


So this is a false statement?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:43pm

We are talking about 2 different things here, you were asking me if one could fire electricity through a donated brain ( ie dead tissue ) to study how it works. The answer is no you cant, because electricity wont travel through dead ( brain ) tissue.

Then you jumped to artificial limbs. Well, artificial limbs are not made of tissues as in skin and bones and blood, they are artificial ie made of metal and wires and plastics ...  Electricity can travel through metal wires, yes.

You cant ask a specific question to get a specific answer then apply that same answer to something else totally unrelated.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:45pm

on 11/08/07 at 21:15:17, Annette wrote:
Electricity can only be conducted along live tissues.


Annette, here is where you were not so precise because dead muscle tissue will respond with reflexes.




By the late 18th century, the stage was set for the definitive demonstration of the electrical nature of the agent of nerve conduction and muscle contraction.

Luigi Galvani's De viribus electricitatis in motu musculari commentarius (translated as Commentary on the effect of electricity on muscular motion) caused a considerable stir when it was published in 1791. His Commentary provides a delightful and charmingly domestic account of his experiments and the circumstances in which they were conducted. Most were performed on frogs. He made a convincing case for the existence of intrinsic animal electricity and showed clearly that it was identical to atmospheric electricity (as in storms) and artificial electricity produced by rubbing amber. His answer to another of Haller's objections to electricity being the nature of the agent of nerve action namely that electrical fluid would diffuse away through the good conducting medium provided by the tissues was that the oily covering of the nerves visible under the microscope would prevent the effusion and dissipation of the electric fluid.  
 
Galvani also showed that electric phenomena existed in the nerves and muscles of sheep. His nephew, Giovanni Aldini, went further and, on a visit to London in 1803, concluded that it was also present in man as shown by the title of his book An account of the Galvanic experiments performed on the body of a malefactor executed at Newgate January 17th 1803.  An expanded version of the book including macabre illustrations of experiments on guillotined criminals was published the following year in Paris. (Figure 1).


http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/vol128/issue1/images/small/awh359f1.gif

Fig. 1 Illustrations of Galvanism in a human, and in a dog. From Aldini, J. Essai: Théorique et expérimental sur le Galvanisme, Paris (1804).

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/128/1/227



Yes, he did use dead people.    ;;D    Open and closed their eyes and mouth.    What a weirdo    ::)


*I see you responded to that while I posted.  ;)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:50pm

Interesting thing you find Kevin !  :P

My question is " how long had these experimental creatures been dead for ? " prior to having the electricity put through them?

A donated brain is very dead, it would be pumped clean of blood, removed and washed and stored in a jar of formalin for weeks if not months before anyone would lay hand on it.

I can guarantee you that no electricity can be conducted through it.

Once you have handled one of those and actually chopped into one, you will agree with me  8)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:55pm
No Annette.  He worked with muscles only, not the brain.  The eyelids have muscles that will open and close, also the mouth.   :)   You can see the name of his book is "... on muscular motion"



How long dead?  I guess rigamortis hadn't set in.  
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Sean_C on Nov 8th, 2007, 9:59pm
My body has been donated to Plastination
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 10:05pm

Same thing Kevin  :)

How long have these muscles been dead for before he played with them? Immediately after they were killed or after they had been embalmed and stored for a while ?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by KJ on Nov 8th, 2007, 10:09pm

on 11/08/07 at 21:43:57, Annette wrote:
You cant ask a specific question to get a specific answer then apply that same answer to something else totally unrelated.


The question was "Will it ever be possible.....?"

Not very specific, and open to interpretation. I'm very clear on the fact that it isn't possible now. Thanks.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 8th, 2007, 10:12pm

on 11/08/07 at 22:05:18, Annette wrote:
Same thing Kevin  :)

How long have these muscles been dead for before he played with them? Immediately after they were killed or after they had been embalmed and stored for a while ?


That I would have to search for.  He would travel the country giving exhibitions.  I hadn't recalled reading they were embalmed.  He'd pay boys to catch frogs for him though.  The sheep heads he'd carry around too but I never thought to think about how he kept them.  
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 8th, 2007, 10:13pm

To answer the question of "Will it ever be possible", my honest answer is I dont think so but to be sure I will need to consult a crystal ball, unfortunately its one of my interests but not my forte.

Sorry couldnt help further.

I like the way you interpret things though , very creative indeed  :)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Brewcrew on Nov 8th, 2007, 10:29pm
Lemme see if I've got this straight - so you're saying that Young Frankenstein isn't true?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Not4Hire on Nov 8th, 2007, 10:44pm
My, this got a lot more response than I thought it would...

Matt said:

Quote:
All the more reason to study brains from CHers...right?


and then Annette said:

on 11/08/07 at 21:33:44, Annette wrote:
Absolutely, but first one needs to understand how a CH brain works, and you cant learn how a brain works just by cutting into a dead one.

Thats why functional brain scans such as PET are so important.


I would think that one could learn something if one had a selection of diagnosed "cluster" brains with which to work. There's some evidence that there's a difference--but the data bank is SO small.

I mean, Michaelangelo and da Vinci used dissection to study the human form as have doctors for centuries. That was then -- this is NOW. We have tools available NOW that were unimaginable in MY youth. (like PET, and CT, and MRI, etc.)

It's a very emotional subject, too. Takin' out yer brain after yer dead... what are ya gonna do when The Rapture happens? And all the graves open up at the Ressurection? I bet y'all will have a hard time hangin' a halo on a empty skull...

8)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 8th, 2007, 10:46pm
Actually Mary Shelley, with her husband Percy were very active in science circles right after the time of Galvani.  

H.G. Wells also later on.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Pinkfloyd on Nov 9th, 2007, 12:17am
The fact that some people here think that nothing can be gained by examining "dead" cluster brains not withstanding, the people actually doing clinical research into cluster headaches believe something CAN be learned from them. I think I'll go with them.

Clusterbusters is looking into where the best place to start one might be, and will continue looking anywhere and everywhere for the answers.

Bobw
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 9th, 2007, 1:08am

It is of paramount importance that one knows what one is looking at and looking for prior to start even touching a human specimen.

As of present time, we dont know yet what to look for in a cluster brain apart from the thicken grey matter in the hypothalamus. We dont even know what this thicken grey matter mean. So what if a doctor cuts into a brain and finds this thicken cell layers? What is it going to tell him/her?

All I am saying is we would be jumping the gun if we go straight to brain autopsy without first arming ourselves with more information.

We will get better results by spending money on developing better functional scans such as PET scans. We should make the scans available to ALL CHers and build a library of CH brain images. From this library we may be able to find the most common anomaly in a CHers brain, then we can start cutting into a real brain to look further.

Donate and store brains from CHers are a great idea, but they are very very precious specimens and we cant waste them by just cutting into them without a good indication that doing so now will help find an answer.

If my husband donates his brain and some doctors are going to cut into it, I would like to know that those doctors know what they are looking for, not just " in case we might find something".

Furthermore when you donate your organs or body to medicine, you cant dictate what it is going to be used for. It could be used as practice specimen for medical students to work on, or it can be used to study aspects of certain diseases.

I dont have any knowledge of any way that you can donate and store brains specifically just for CH study only, at least not in Australia.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by nani on Nov 9th, 2007, 1:17am

on 11/09/07 at 01:08:38, Annette wrote:
All I am saying is we would be jumping the gun if we go straight to brain autopsy without first arming ourselves with more information.


I would think that the researchers who think it's a good idea would arm themselves quite well.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 9th, 2007, 1:20am

Then I would love to hear from those researchers because I would like to be armed with the same  :)

Do you know who they are and how would we reach them to "pick their brains" ?  8)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 9th, 2007, 2:01am
Again,


on 11/08/07 at 01:03:13, George_J wrote:
Sure, if it's for legitimate research, and not just another jugged brain collection a la' the nineteenth-century freak-show assemblages that still moulder in some of our institutions of higher learning, unused and unexamined.


Show it's for focused, legitimate research into discovering the causes of cluster headache, and yes--I don't have a problem with it.  

If not, forget it.  Not interested.

Best,

George
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 9th, 2007, 3:27am

on 11/08/07 at 19:34:28, fubar wrote:
Dr. Sewell says that brain bank does not have any way to track which brains had CH.  They only track certain things, and CH isn't one of them.  He fears that if you donate your brain there, it would not contribute anything to CH research since they can't even tell Dr. Sewell if any of the brains there had the problem.  It's not something they can just add to the list.  he says Dr. Goadsby may eventually start up a brain bank for this purpose.


-Fu

edited because I can't spell



There is the problem, currently there is nowhere that will store CH brains just for CH study that I know of. If Dr Goadsby wants to start up a CH brain bank, imagine the cost and the legal problems he will face.

He cant, as an individual, have a "personal" collection of brains, even to study. They have to be registered and stored by an authorised institution such as a medical school. Who will fund this and which medical school will they be stored at? Who will be responsible for the job of supervising how these brains to be used?

For a CH brain to be harvested, a pathologist will be needed to do the dissection. What about the rest of the body? Where will it go ? What will it be used for ?

Its a huge thing to be undertaken and not without a whole lot of potential problems. The cost of it will be phenomenal. I believe as it is, its better to spend money on something else more immediately productive, such as more advanced functional brain scans.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by chewy on Nov 9th, 2007, 7:30am

Quote:
Cluster brain "bank"


Do they provide debit cards and is there a rewards program ?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Brewcrew on Nov 9th, 2007, 7:33am
I heard you get your choice of a toaster or a set of cocktail glasses when you open an account.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Filbert on Nov 9th, 2007, 7:46am
Hi
    Despite your reservations Annette Prof. Goadsby did ask the attendees at the last two Ouch UK conferences to think about donating their brains. Indeed I think I recall he said that someone already had. So even though I have no doubt that there is a very long way to go with this kind of research into CH, it is obviously not being dismissed by some eminent people in the field.  

 Fil.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by LeLimey on Nov 9th, 2007, 7:53am
You're right Fil, PG did ask us all if he could have our brains wen we'd finished with them, I was there too - in fact if you remember we tried to get him to take ol' Ting Tong's there and then ;)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Filbert on Nov 9th, 2007, 8:00am
I think Helen as we were both sitting next to him at the time, at one point we thought they already had! ;) ;;D

I concede that was after the lunch interval in the pub though.  

  Fil.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by chewy on Nov 9th, 2007, 8:17am
Cant wait to see what the ATM will look like.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v388/bgull2/brainz.jpg?t=1194614229
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by thomas on Nov 9th, 2007, 9:10am
Well, I have a brochure on the way.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 9th, 2007, 9:32am
Here's a best-case scenario for brain collection and research:

http://www.stanleyresearch.org/programs/brain_collection.asp

Here's another scenario for you--what remains of one of the large brain collections of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries--neglected, unused, and unusable.  Sounds as if Cornell is doing their best to make some use and sense of it, but ultimately there isn't much point to it, except as a curio collection.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/24/science/24brai.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

There is also the question of what happens to donated tissue?  There are examples of persons profiting, whether directly or indirectly, by trafficking in donated human tissue.  What controls would be in place to address this?

http://www.cancerdiagnosis.nci.nih.gov/specimens/50_state_survey/caseStudies3.htm

Maybe it's just me, but I see lots of unanswered questions.  

This whole brain collection thing is just speculative at this point, as far as I can see.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Best,

George
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by LeLimey on Nov 9th, 2007, 9:34am
I think the way PG meant it was as people leaving ther body to science which can be done right now with specific use of the brains for CH research. I don't know, I'm second-guessing here, I was just reiterating what Filbert had said about PG's speech.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Gator on Nov 9th, 2007, 9:49am
I don't see the problem, myself.  I'm registered as an organ donor.  I believe that if there's something left of me that might help another when I'm gone, then have at it.  I doubt my brain would awe scientists or unlock the secrets to the universe, but WTF, right?  I won't need it after I'm dead and it just might do someone somewhere some good, even if it's not cluster headache related.  Even if they bronzed it and made a door stop out of it, it would be more use than rotting in a grave somewhere.  Hell, there are times when that would be more useful than what I am doing with it at the time.   :-/

As to the question of the rapture, the bible says all will be made whole again (not a direct quote).  So you and your brain (or any other body part) minus any imperfections will be reunited.

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 9th, 2007, 10:17am

on 11/09/07 at 09:49:11, Gator wrote:
... more use than rotting in a grave somewhere.  Hell, there are times when that would be more useful than what I am doing with it at the time.


Brain tissue has a lot of fat content.  Mine could be freeze-dried and ground up to put in a winter bird feeder.  Bird brains -- it's for the birds.


A 'no bird left behind' program.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by M.R. on Nov 9th, 2007, 11:30am
   Hey, as long as people are giving away organs, I'm figuring on needing another set of lungs and a new liver. Let me know if you can help me out.... :)

Mike
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by nani on Nov 9th, 2007, 12:13pm

on 11/09/07 at 03:27:55, Annette wrote:
He cant, as an individual, have a "personal" collection of brains, even to study. They have to be registered and stored by an authorised institution such as a medical school.


Goadsby is affiliated with a school in the UK and now with the University of San Francisco in the US.
Halpern is affiliated with Harvard (which already has a brain bank).

Why the naysaying? No one is asking you to set this up, or even do any research. If the docs( who actually are doing research)think this should happen, it should.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by JDH on Nov 9th, 2007, 12:26pm

on 11/09/07 at 11:30:53, M.R. wrote:
   Hey, as long as people are giving away organs, I'm figuring on needing another set of lungs and a new liver. Let me know if you can help me out.... :)

Mike


Geez Mike we usually don't see these kinds of request until after Davcon  ;;D
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by M.R. on Nov 9th, 2007, 12:42pm
   Well, I thought that I would get an early start ( The early bird gets the organs kinda thing). It is always best to be prepared...... ;;D

Mike
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by LeLimey on Nov 9th, 2007, 12:57pm
Well PG can have mine with pleasure providing he waits until I pop my clogs of course.

He won't want any of the mens brains from here though - just the women.

He only wants ones with signs of activity  ;;D
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Gator on Nov 9th, 2007, 1:04pm
Helen, you aggressive go-getter!  :-*

[smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Rosybabe on Nov 9th, 2007, 1:08pm

on 11/09/07 at 12:57:31, LeLimey wrote:
He won't want any of the mens brains from here though - just the women.

He only wants ones with signs of activity  ;;D


http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee233/8h0t4ks/AddEmoticons12631.gif
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Brewcrew on Nov 9th, 2007, 1:09pm
Then, if he needs hearts that show signs of activity, he can come to us, boys. :o
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by LeLimey on Nov 9th, 2007, 1:25pm
I've been volunteering for that job for ages Brew. Got my directions from mapquest and everything - straight through the ribcage and go go go!

Mikey - here sweetie - have a nice FRESH mug of coffee  ;;D
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by M.R. on Nov 9th, 2007, 2:05pm
Helen

   Thank you, but no, (see subtitle.....Hostile women look to posion poor unsuspecting bastids like me). I'm lookin' to receive, not donate (at least not quite yet). But thank you for the offer....... ;;D

Mike
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 9th, 2007, 2:08pm

on 11/09/07 at 12:57:31, LeLimey wrote:
mens brains from here

with signs of activity  ;;D





http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/TAU2495.jpg

Yes, we need bigger and brighter signs of activity.  

Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by chewy on Nov 9th, 2007, 7:03pm
Next week at this time I'll be standing right under that Glitter Gulch sign.

If there ever was a need for a brain brank with a withdrawal policy its right on Freemont Street!
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 9th, 2007, 7:18pm

on 11/09/07 at 19:03:29, chewy wrote:
Next week at this time I'll be standing right under that Glitter Gulch sign.

If there ever was a need for a brain brank with a withdrawal policy its right on Freemont Street!


Why here's some signs of activity now!  

From Broston to the brath house brothels of Gritter Grulch.





;;D
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 9th, 2007, 8:30pm

on 11/09/07 at 12:13:47, nani wrote:
Goadsby is affiliated with a school in the UK and now with the University of San Francisco in the US.
Halpern is affiliated with Harvard (which already has a brain bank).

Why the naysaying? No one is asking you to set this up, or even do any research. If the docs( who actually are doing research)think this should happen, it should.



If Dr Goadsby and Dr Halpern are the ones setting up a legitimate cluster brain bank then I am all for it, once its up and running properly.

I was saying nay to the OP which posted a request from a John somebody who asked that we go ahead now to sign up to donate to that brain bank provided in the link. To me that is not the right thing to do. Fu also quoted Dr Sewell saying that we shouldnt, because that brain bank cant track CH brains.

It seems that some people have inside information which we havent been given. I would personally write to Dr Goadsby and Dr Halpern to ask them directly about this project, if I am interested,  to ascertain whether its on its way or is it just under consideration, and how is it going to be conducted.

Unfortunately not all researchers can be blindly trusted. We have doctors and professors regularly strucked off their positions because some abuse their priviledges. Not because they are doing some forms of research that we should automatically follow them without first looking at what they are doing and how they are doing it. In the medical field, this is called peer review.

We are all desperate to find a cause and a cure, so we would jump at any opportunity to do so. However, we really should learn to critically appraise proposals presented to us, to judge for ourselves which one is worthwhile and which one is not.

I remember a while back we had some PhD student contacted this site asking for people with chronic CH to enrol in their research for pain behaviours and chronic illnesses, does anyone know whether it had been carried out and whether any worthwhile results came from it?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by purpleydog on Nov 9th, 2007, 9:39pm

on 11/09/07 at 20:30:02, Annette wrote:
If Dr Goadsby and Dr Halpern are the ones setting up a legitimate cluster brain bank then I am all for it, once its up and running properly.

I was saying nay to the OP which posted a request from a John somebody who asked that we go ahead now to sign up to donate to that brain bank provided in the link. To me that is not the right thing to do. Fu also quoted Dr Sewell saying that we shouldnt, because that brain bank cant track CH brains.

It seems that some people have inside information which we havent been given. I would personally write to Dr Goadsby and Dr Halpern to ask them directly about this project, if I am interested,  to ascertain whether its on its way or is it just under consideration, and how is it going to be conducted.

Unfortunately not all researchers can be blindly trusted. We have doctors and professors regularly strucked off their positions because some abuse their priviledges. Not because they are doing some forms of research that we should automatically follow them without first looking at what they are doing and how they are doing it. In the medical field, this is called peer review.

We are all desperate to find a cause and a cure, so we would jump at any opportunity to do so. However, we really should learn to critically appraise proposals presented to us, to judge for ourselves which one is worthwhile and which one is not.

I remember a while back we had some PhD student contacted this site asking for people with chronic CH to enrol in their research for pain behaviours and chronic illnesses, does anyone know whether it had been carried out and whether any worthwhile results came from it?



Annette, you may not agree with CH'ers donating their brains for scientific study, and you bring in others who also don't agree, to boost your point. You speak of writing to Dr. Goadsby. Do you have his address, or do you need it? Because you don't like the idea doesn't mean the rest of us with clusterheadaches don't like it. You are right, we each need to judge for our own selves what we want to do, and make our own decisions.

If this means donating our brains after death, then the people who want to, will. It's as simple as that. I don't understand why you keep trying to talk everyone out of this, we are not a bunch of turnips that fell off the truck. Thanks for trying to warn us of bad brain donation, but I can certainly read and investigate on my own, as can every other adult on this website. I don't think any of us are planning a mass kick of the bucket, and technology will improve immensely by then. Thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 9th, 2007, 10:13pm

on 11/09/07 at 21:39:32, purpleydog wrote:
I don't understand why you keep trying to talk everyone out of this, we are not a bunch of turnips that fell off the truck.


It is a discussion of a point of view of comprehension, not a discussion of a point of view of personalities.


I'm not sure who everyone and we are.  
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by purpleydog on Nov 9th, 2007, 10:28pm
Sorry Kevin, I am getting the impression that because she doesn''t agree, we shouldn't agree either.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by KJ on Nov 9th, 2007, 10:53pm

on 11/09/07 at 20:30:02, Annette wrote:
In the medical field, this is called peer review.


Thanks again, Annette. I wasn't sure how you MDs ruled on the best course of action for the rest of us. Now I know.

Meanwhile, I'm over here rubbing two sticks together. I've been playing jacks with a square ball all of my life. ::)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by BlueMeanie on Nov 9th, 2007, 10:55pm
I read Annette's post to warn people who would not normally give their brain away to be chopped to bits to take some serious thought before donating.  Without thoroughly checking, their brain may end up being dog food and not sliced into chuncks for CH research.

For those who figure they're gone anyway and could care less about what happens to their brain, I guess it just doesn't matter.  ::)

And for those who don't have a brain, ummm... nevermind.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by nani on Nov 9th, 2007, 11:27pm

on 11/09/07 at 20:30:02, Annette wrote:
If Dr Goadsby and Dr Halpern are the ones setting up a legitimate cluster brain bank then I am all for it, once its up and running properly.

I was saying nay to the OP which posted a request from a John somebody who asked that we go ahead now to sign up to donate to that brain bank provided in the link.


That John was John Halpern, responding to a request on another board about brain donation information.
He never said he was actively asking for our brains, just that should we wish to make them available for future research, we could do so to the Harvard McLean brain bank.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by chewy on Nov 9th, 2007, 11:30pm

Quote:
I don't understand why you keep trying to talk everyone out of this, we are not a bunch of turnips that fell off the truck.


Just for the record, I do not wish to be included in any of your we's or everyone's.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 10th, 2007, 4:16pm

on 11/09/07 at 21:39:32, purpleydog wrote:
Annette, you may not agree with CH'ers donating their brains for scientific study, and you bring in others who also don't agree, to boost your point.


And who might that be, pray tell?

Anyone can check this thread for themselves and see who posted when, and what was posted.  


on 11/09/07 at 21:39:32, purpleydog wrote:
If this means donating our brains after death, then the people who want to, will. It's as simple as that. I don't understand why you keep trying to talk everyone out of this, we are not a bunch of turnips that fell off the truck.  


Turnips notwithstanding, with respect, this whole thread basically fell off the truck.  

We only received more complete information about what was being discussed as the thing progressed--details that emerged after the fact, like rabbits being pulled out of a hat.  I'm sure that those who read the discussion on the other board knew the whole story, but the rest of us did not.  

Had someone, early on said:

1. John Halpern at Harvard wonders if clusterheads would like to donate their brains to the McLean brain collection at Harvard for focused research on cluster headaches.

and:

2. This is how the brain tissue donation program works, these are the safeguards in place, and this is how the donated tissue will be used.

I doubt the response would have been the same.  

JMHO.   And it IS mine.

Best,

George
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by chewy on Nov 10th, 2007, 5:02pm

Quote:
and you bring in others who also don't agree, to boost your point.


ROFLMAO! Bringing in others? LMAO!

Annette are you out there rallying the anti brain bank crowd again? LOL
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Maffumatt on Nov 10th, 2007, 5:31pm
The Monkey Experiment, (or) “Why Do We Do That?”

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, hang a banana on a string and place a set of stairs under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, all of the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. After a while, another monkey makes an attempt with the same result, and all the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon the monkeys will try to prevent it.

Now, put away the cold water. Remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all the other monkeys attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs he will be attacked.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.

Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked. Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana.

Why not? Because as far as they know, that’s the way it’s always been done around there.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Not4Hire on Nov 10th, 2007, 5:41pm
well, this "turnip truck" of a thread has definitely veered all over the road and managed to dent both curbs. As the "OP" (I guess that's "Original Poster"?), I think George is correct:


Quote:
Had someone, early on said:

1. John Halpern at Harvard wonders if clusterheads would like to donate their brains to the McLean brain collection at Harvard for focused research on cluster headaches.

and:

2. This is how the brain tissue donation program works, these are the safeguards in place, and this is how the donated tissue will be used.

I doubt the response would have been the same.  


and that WAS my intent. Polarization was NOT. It seems that if one has an interest, there are avenues to explore.

If one has an OPINION, there are plenty of soapboxes to stand on.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I quote (without permission, but I feel it's important to know and will accept any heat):


Quote:
Dr. Halpern suggested the Harvard Brain Bank, which I initially thought was a good idea, since it is by far the oldest, largest and best established brain bank in the country.

However, when I phoned them up to see how many cluster headache brains they had already, I was told, "we have no idea!" That isn't one of the diagnoses they record. If you donate your brain to Harvard, it'll be shoehorned into one of the following categories:

Types of Diagnoses Collected
Alzheimer's Disease
Alzheimer's Disease, Lewy Body Variant
Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis
Autism
Bipolar Disorder
Normal-Control
Dementia
Depression, Unipolar
Diffuse Lewy Body Disease
DYT-1 Dystonia
Huntington's Disease
Parkinson's Disease
Progressive Supranuclear Palsy
Rett Syndrome
Schizophrenia
Tourette's Syndrome

...which, if you have nothing else going on, means you'll be classified as "normal". They also told me that no researcher had ever asked for cluster headache brain tissue, so it wasn't exactly a priority for them. So my concern is that you'd all donate your brains to Harvard, then I'd call them in ten years and ask them how many cluster headache brains they had, and they'd again say, "no idea!" Which isn't too useful for any of us.

I spoke with Dr. Goadsby about this, and he's interested in setting up a brain bank (he told me that he was "working on" two brains already, whatever that means--eek!). There is a small, specialized brain bank at UCSF devoted entirely to multiple sclerosis brains, which he proposed expanding slightly to include both multiple sclerosis and cluster headache brains. This wouldn't cost much because the infrastructure is already in place. Privately, though, I suspect that since the guy's trying to get his lab set up and also run an entirely different lab on a different continent, this project is not ranking highly on his "to-do" list.

So it's slim pickings on the brain bank front! Yale doesn't have one, and although they make interested noises, the proposal has been stalled in the "endless talk but no action" phase for several years.

Andrew Sewell MD


My response to that:

Quote:
well, that's a bit discouraging. But I'll bet SOMEBODY was able to
apply some pressure to get

"Diffuse Lewy Body Disease"

onto The List. OK- I googled it and got

"34 unique top-ten pages selected from at least 886,405 matching results"
sheesh, who knew?

But CH got: "39 unique top-ten pages selected from at least 12,234,080
matching results"

so now I feel better.


baby steps, folks. Put 'em down one right after another...
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 10th, 2007, 5:49pm

on 11/10/07 at 17:41:24, Not4Hire wrote:
In the spirit of full disclosure, I quote (without permission, but I feel it's important to know and will accept any heat):


Thank you.

Best wishes,

George
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 10th, 2007, 6:08pm

on 11/10/07 at 17:41:24, Not4Hire wrote:
It seems that if one has an interest, there are avenues to explore.



Brochure Request

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To request a brochure, please fill out the form below and mail or fax to:    

Harvard Brain Tissue Resource Center
McLean Hospital
Attn: Pat Georgopoulos
115 Mill Street
Belmont, MA 02478
Fax: (617) 855-3199


Please provide the following contact information:

Name  
Street address  
Address (cont.)  
City  
State/Province  
Zip/Postal code  
Telephone  
E-mail  
Neurological or Psychiatric diagnosis  
Number of Brochures  

 

If you have any question, please call 1-800 Brain Bank.

http://www.brainbank.mclean.org/
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 10th, 2007, 6:23pm

Interesting how much information is available all of a sudden when someone presses for peer review.

Regarding the initial quote from John with an email address that reads  "thisreallyisjohn@yahoo.com", how the hell would I know that it is from Dr John Halpern? All lecturers have a formal email addresses at the University where they work. Why did he use a yahoo address to ask people to donate their brains I will never know but I believe I could be excused in being suspicious.

Furthermore, we were initially only told that "researchers" are doing this so that we should support it, not until much later that we became informed that they are Dr Goadsby and Dr Halpern.

Now that more useful information is available, I would like to formally state that I am all for a CH brain bank, should it be operated and supervised by a trustable body/person/organisation.

I just wish that topics to be discussed be opened with adequate information so that we can all respond appropriately.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by LeLimey on Nov 10th, 2007, 6:42pm
I responded to this post with an affirmation that what Filbert had said was true. PG asked in both 95 and 97 for us to consider donating brains at the OUCH UK National Conferences. I didn't know anything about anyone else anywhere.

I would hazard a guess that John Halpern's email for this is a yahoo one as it's an email addy he uses to post on the internet. I would imagine his official one would be freely available from the McClean Website.
PG's official email addy at the IoN in London was freely available albeit that it was probably filtered by a secretary or something.  I don't know - it's just a guess.


I think the intent with all of this was to get people thinking more than anything. To make us consider it as an option like any other organ donation. The process might not be viable yet, the structure may not be in place but unless they get people - US - to consider donating our little grey cells then it isn't viable anyway!

Just trying to balance it out that's all. More work and thought needs to be given to the logisitcs of how it could be done - but in the meantime, if there WAS a clusterhead brain bank.. would you leave them yours?
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:00pm
Notfur's question and answer was all on the first post but since he reposted about "interest" and "avenues" I reposted the info in case no one went back on the thread to see,
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:12pm

on 11/10/07 at 18:42:29, LeLimey wrote:
but in the meantime, if there WAS a clusterhead brain bank.. would you leave them yours?


As I said earlier in this thread, if it was for legitimate, focused research on the causes of cluster headache, and the proper protocols and safeguards were in place, then--yes.

I have no problem whatsoever with Dr. Halpern or Dr. Goadsby taking a good look at the ol' Jello, presuming such a donation program was ever put in place.  I only hope they don't mind waiting--I intend to use it for quite a while yet.  ;)

Best wishes,

George
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by LeLimey on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:15pm

on 11/10/07 at 19:12:33, George_J wrote:
I intend to use it for quite a while yet.  ;)

Best wishes,

George


First time for everything eh Georgie?!!  ;)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:19pm

on 11/10/07 at 19:15:35, LeLimey wrote:
First time for everything eh Georgie?!!  ;)


Yep.  Mostly I use it to keep my skull from collapsing, so it serves a cosmetic purpose if nothing else.

;)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by nani on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:21pm

on 11/10/07 at 18:23:38, Annette wrote:
Interesting how much information is available all of a sudden when someone presses for peer review.

Regarding the initial quote from John with an email address that reads  [b]"thisreallyisjohn@yahoo.com", [/b]how the hell would I know that it is from Dr John Halpern? All lecturers have a formal email addresses at the University where they work. Why did he use a yahoo address to ask people to donate their brains I will never know but I believe I could be excused in being suspicious.


I'm sure when/if this project gets going, the peer review will not happen on an internet message board.

Do you use your hospital email address here?

Again, he never asked for any brains. The question came up, as it does here from time to time, and he told us about a brain bank.

This was brought here for thought and discusssion. No one was asking for input as far as whether it was legitimate. Everyone on the original board, where this discussion was initially held, knows who the posters are.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Pinkfloyd on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:26pm

on 11/10/07 at 18:23:38, Annette wrote:
Why did he use a yahoo address to ask people to donate their brains I will never know but I believe I could be excused in being suspicious.  


There was nothing to be suspicious about. No one, including Dr. Halpern asked anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter, to donate their brains. This was not a "donate your brains" thread.
The subject came up because someone wanted to donate their brain to science and the discussion followed as to where that might be possible.
The only person that ever ASKED for brain donations for cluster research was Dr. Goadsby and that was long ago.
Aren't we allowed to discuss things without peer review?
The "researchers" that showed interest in this topic were just informing those that asked about it, where they might be able to do so. No one came knocking on our doors. No one knocked on your door asking for your or your husbands brain.

I'm happy to hear though, that it's ok with you now that I donate my brain, if I see fit. I feel better about it already.

Bobw
(sorry DW)
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by chewy on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:29pm
http://www.brainbank.mclean.org/Donate.html
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Annette on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:52pm
On Oct 19, 2007 11:09 AM, John <thisreallyisjohn@yahoo.com> wrote:
Greetings All!
For those who are interested in donating their brains
for science and in particular for helping with cluster
headache research, you can indeed arrange donation to
my hospital. The Harvard Brain Tissue Resource Center
is proably the largest/most important on the East
Coast and one of the largest in the world. We might
even have several brains of people with CH already!
I'll try to ask over there before the conference about
this.
Here are the websites on how to donate and on the
Center:
http://www.brainbank.mclean.org/Donate.html
http://www.brainbank.mclean.org

Please donate!

best,

John



I am sorry if I understood this wrongly as English is not my first language but to me the highlighted words above asked for donation.

I dont use a hospital email address because I work as a GP in a medical centre, not a hospital. Doctors in a medical centres have their own personal email addresses.

The topic is posted here on a general board where anyone and everyone can post their opinions.

I was simply voicing my own opinion, I wasnt trying to influence anyone and I certainly didnt go around bringing in people who would agree with me. If someone agrees with me that would be because what I posted made sense to them.

I am glad however that we finally had more information to work with.
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 10th, 2007, 7:59pm

on 11/10/07 at 19:26:15, Pinkfloyd wrote:
There was nothing to be suspicious about. No one, including Dr. Halpern asked anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter, to donate their brains. This was not a "donate your brains" thread.
The subject came up because someone wanted to donate their brain to science and the discussion followed as to where that might be possible.
The only person that ever ASKED for brain donations for cluster research was Dr. Goadsby and that was long ago.


Now that we know, in hindsight, what was actually being asked, requested, discussed, speculated upon--or whatever--on the other board, this is, of course, now perfectly clear.    

If that had been a part of the discussion since the beginning of this thread, I doubt it would have such an Alice in Wonderland quality about it.

So--to the crux of this thing.  I gather that Harvard's McLean Brain Bank is not really set up at the present time to receive donated brains for the specific purpose of researching cluster headache.  I also understand that Dr. Goadsby, at some time in the past, has either requested that brains be donated, or has expressed interest in establishing a donation program for brain tissue from those with cluster headache.  If and when such a program is ever established, I, for one, would like to know of it, and would like to have specific information about the program, the protocols, and the guidelines.

If I am not mistaken, none of that has happened.

Until it does, we're really talking about nothing at all, other than a theoretical possibility.

Can't see where there's much more to be said at this point.

Best wishes,

George

 
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Gator on Nov 10th, 2007, 8:06pm

on 11/10/07 at 19:59:00, George_J wrote:
Can't see where there's much more to be said at this point.



Of relevance on this topic, maybe not, but this comment alone will likely ensure at least another full page of comments if only to comment on your comment.   huh?  ;;D
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by George_J on Nov 10th, 2007, 8:15pm

on 11/10/07 at 20:06:39, Gator wrote:
Of relevance on this topic, maybe not, but this comment alone will likely ensure at least another full page of comments if only to comment on your comment.   huh?  ;;D


;;D  Nature of message boards, I guess.  

Sooner or later it will pooter out--until someone raises it from the dead.

Best,

George
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Racer1_NC on Nov 10th, 2007, 8:15pm
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/Racer1_NC/gifarguing2.gif
Title: Re: Cluster brain "bank"
Post by Melissa on Nov 11th, 2007, 9:50pm
I don't give a crap who wants my brain after I'm dead.  If they want it, they can have it!  I'll have no use for it anyways!

I'm also an organ donor, so I'm sure my parts will be alllllll over the place. ;;D


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