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        New Message Board Archives >> 2007 General Board Posts >> Fair or not????
        
(Message started by: aubmari on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 10:36am)

Title: Fair or not????
Post by aubmari on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 10:36am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294145,00.html

I say not!

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Rosybabe on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 11:22am

overreacting..again...I say not..

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by nani on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 11:25am

School systems use these policies to cover their asses. If they don't have across the board zero tolerance policies, and something happens...they can be sued. It's not about common sense, it's about avoiding lawsuits. :-/

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Redd on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 11:30am

Over reaction...

I'm really getting worried about the state of intelect in our public education systems. Hell, the state of the intelect of our country in general.

There is a real lack of intelligent life down here.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by aubmari on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 11:33am

I find it ridiculous that they punish something like this but when the REAL signs are there they seem to do nothing to correct that. For example the last shooting.

A little backwards in my opinion

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by ClusterChuck on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 11:48am

NOT fair, in my books ....

What about if he drew a picture of a pretty girl (fully clothed, BTW)? Would he be thrown out for sexual harassment?

Isn't it the same set of circumstances?

Chuck

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Big_OUCH on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 12:17pm

Don't we have something called The Constitution that allows freedom of expression? I am becoming more and more worried about the direction that the US is taking. What next, should the firearms that are carried by the stautes of servicemen on war memorials be removed? Enough is enough; the school officials that suspended the child shoud be sued. :-[

"Stupid is as stupid does.": Forest Gump

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by tanner on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 12:55pm

Fox News probably turned the kid in....stupid stupid :o

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Callico on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 1:00pm

All the more reason to home school! I am so fed up with the over-reaching policies of a bunch of knee-jerk liberals that think real problems can be solved by squelching all masculinity exibited by young males. They try to delete any display of testosterone and think by doing that all of the evil people in the world will do the same. It's utter hogwash.

jsut mho.
Jerry

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by minnie on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 2:16pm

I am trying to look at this from both points of view.First off they never should have compared this kid to the kids who did the Columbine shooting.Five days suspension is strict but they did put it down to three.Most if not all schools have strict rules on what is and is not acceptable behavior and it is written in very specific terms.It is given in the students handbook and many schools discuss things like this in assemblys.It had to be known by the boy and his parents that pictures like this drawn in school while most likely innocent is disciplined with suspension.When most of us went to school there wasn't the school shootings like there arenow.unfortanately we..... the schools,parents,communities and students are made to be on alert for such things.Our schools have drills in case someone fom outside or within the schools do snap and start a shooting spree.The Boy is 13 middle school age not 4 or 5.I believe he should know this is against school policy.
Which do you think is the lesser of two evils.....a 13 year old is suspended for 3 - 5 days for what was most likely a lack in judgement.He goes back and continues
his education with his classmates..the students learn zero tolerance means just that.The other scenario....
school officials are at a news conference asking why when this student was caught with this drawing was he not disciplined as per school policy .They appoligise that students were hurt or God forbid killed by this student.He was suspended nothing more and if it was a innocent drawing he will hopefully be evaluated and life will go on.It will not go on life as normal if kids get through the cracks.
MHo take it as you will,
Minnie really hopes this boy goes on to graduate and have a successful life and can laugh at his suspension as lesson learned.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by seasonalboomer on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 2:36pm

when i think of the stuff i used to doodle and write in notebooks and on desks as a kid....sheesh! had they been as screwy as they are today they'd have put me in a rubber room. as it turns out, i was okay.

I hate that kids can't do anything without it becoming part of their permanent record. It goes against the idea that many of us were raised on of freedom of self expression. I thank every neighborhood cop who caught my friends and I and said, "okay boys dump'em out and get home -- if we see you out again tonight we'll have to take you in". Using today's approach I'd be locked up in jail, penniless and homeless. Instead common sense used to prevail.

sad times to be a kid.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by M.R. on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 2:50pm

Way over done (and blownout of proportion)! This kid was "convicted" of a "crime" with no known cause or show of intent. He may grow up to graduate and be successful, but I doubt that he will laugh at this for a "lesson" learned.

Mike

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Big_OUCH on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:00pm

I still think that the principal way overreacted. Just as there are scenes in great literature containing graphic violence and the WWF and comic books glorify violence, there is no correlation between what one reads or writes and future violent behavior. My brothers, when they were kids, drew pictures that depicted war, killing, horrible monsters-it is a part of growing up, especially for young boys. They grow out of it-both of my brothers are successful and the most gentle men that I know. Violent behavior is learned (from parents, friends, etc.) and even then, most violent people are what are known as anti-social personalities, a condition that starts when a child is young, 4-5 years old (torturing and killing small animals, fire setting, beating up younger children, old people, etc.). This condition is, unfortunately, incurable and the majority of people in prison have this disorder. They do not have a conscience, are self-centered, cannot empathize with the feelings of others and will do virtually anything to get what they want. If someone has a bicycle and the other person wants it, they will take it, using violence to get it. They only show emotion, i.e., crying, when they get caught doing something illegal. Drawing a picture of a gun, in a society where guns are legal and everywhere, is not an indication that the person who drew the gun is or will become a criminal. Behavior is a better determinate of whether or not a child will become a violent criminal. The people who committed the killings at Columbine left behind video tapes, writings and other materials that plainly said what they were going to do and they had been at it for years before they committed their crimes. A bit of common sense is necessary-if the logic of the school official who suspended the boy is carried out to its logical conclusion, then football, soccar, wrestling, boxing, baseball and all other sports that cause injury and encourage aggressiveness should also be banned. Were I the parents of the child, I would sue the pants off the school and its officials-has anyone thought of the emotional damage done to the child who was suspended? Something is rotten when a child is punished so that a school official can cover his ass.
Sorry I went on for so long, but this topic really pisses me off.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by jimmers on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:04pm

WTF is next? Suspending 6-7 year olds for playing tag because you have to touch someone?

Gimme a fucking break (Sorry, this got my Irish up!) >:(

Jimmers

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Ghost on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:06pm

What would happen if a teacher heard part of a conversation that went like this.

"I shot him right in the heart and had to follow him for a mile till I finially caught up and had to cut his throat."

then the teacher left in a hurry to get some help to have a 10 year old arrested?

Should that child be arrested, suspended, expelled, or exicuted?

ponder this and i will give the rest later.

sometimes though things are not as they seem.

only use that context right now because that is all the administrators will use and no explination.

Mike

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by seasonalboomer on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:14pm

on 08/23/07 at 15:06:46, Ghost wrote:

We can't have little deer hunters in our classroom.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by minnie on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:15pm

He was not convicted he was suspended for three days.He did violate school district policy.Whoever got this as front page news so the whole area to know the kid did something harmless but non the less against the schools written policy which to suspend him would have be a written policy.If you ask 100 -13 year olds all over the country if drawing a picture such as this in school is against school policy and will result in some sort of discipline, I believe at least 90 % would Know that it is.Has worse things been done in school hell yes.will worse be done in school...hell yes.But my opinion is still that this boy knew the rules did what he wanted anyways and now he doesn't want to follow through with the discipline.Did he do a major crime hell no did he get convicted hell no he got suspended I'm sure many of us on the board have been suspended and survived,as will this kid.Too bad the whole thing got blown out of perportion.Three days of getting out of school for drawing a picture.....OOOHHH we all should be "convicted like that"
Minnie

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Paul98 on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:17pm

Did the school system ban or burn any text books that had the word gun printed in them? Pictures of soldures holding guns? What's next suspension for thought?

I'm sure the school board will use this to raise taxes so they can install metal detectors and hire police to be on duty 24x7 in the hallways.

The public school system in the US is fucked up and it started back in the late 50's early 60's.

Home school!

-P.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by LeLimey on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:20pm

Home schooling is all very well but not everyone can afford to have one parent stay home and not earn and quite simply, you still have to pay the bloody taxes.

Its time people shouted back that they aren't happy and enough is enough.

Bring back formal education and stop increasing the level of stupidity.

Its got to the point where kids don't have to think as everyone idiot proofs them too much.

The day when McDonalds were sued for selling hot coffee was proof of that.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by nani on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:26pm

An entire nation of home schooled kids will result in adults who've never had to learn to take turns, share, resolve peer conflicts or think about the other side of an issue from the families' beliefs.
Thank you, no.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by M.R. on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:30pm

Weather he was convicted or suspended, judgment was passed with no real crime, altercation, bad intent shown or supposed. I doubt that most kids would realize that a simple picture of a gun could get them suspended. If that is the case, it makers me more glad that I never had kids. I would have bought my lawyer 2 cars by now.

Mike

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by tanner on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:31pm

I agree completely with the points above me from Helen and Nani!!!

My son is who he is (and that is a great man) due largely to his public school education in Indiana.

Parents need to re-assert control over their respective Boards of ED.

....IMHO.....Tim

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Ghost on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 3:38pm

thats my point nowhere in the policy does it specifically say the kids cannot draw a gun it is implied or at the teachers descresion(sp) it does say they they cannot speak graphically or draw pictures of killing. does not specify human or animal. it also does not say a student cant say the word gun, by there definition just mentioning it is an automatic CONVICTION 3 days suspension is a conviction once it is carried out. if a art teacher has the students draw a still life of there favorite subject and they did not specify what to draw and a student drew a gun would that be grounds to suspend for 3 days?

I want to know how far they will take convicting kids for what is quite literally harmless things.
to concide a point if the gun was shooting at a teacher or student or even a person then the parents should be notified and if the student admits it was meant as a threat or the administration hears the evidence both sides and determines it a threat or a possible threat then there should be disiplinary action taken. there was no imidiate danger and procedures should be established to determine if something that is not an imidiate danger to students or staff should be handled in a disiplanary manner or not. just to convict a child for drawing a harmless picture (yes even a gun is harmless) and administrating disipline(ie 3 days suspension) could be considered a violation of that persons constitutional rights.
why should a child of any age be afraid to doodle draw or be creative? He was NO threat!

sorry for the reant ... and seasonal you have the answer to that correct. a student in my sons school was expelled for that and later was reenstated once the parents got a lawyer and had a chance to give th rest of the story, which was what he was telling his buddies about his deer hunting trip and the teacher caught only that small part and freaked out.

Mike

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Charlie on Aug 23^rd, 2007, 8:06pm

Quote:

God!. I killed people, blew up stuff and shot down whole airforces on every notebook page. Good fun too.

Over-reaction from here. Talk to the kid to be sure where it came from. Suspension is ridiculous and this kind of reaction doesn't work. I can't help noticing the kinds of guns kids like...I drew Colt peacemakers, Winchesters, and Davy Crockett's Ole Betsy...a different time.

Home schooling: Bad all the way around. Not a healthy thing for the kids. Kids need some exposure to the real world. Religious types like it of course. After all; you have to make sure they think "The Flintstones" is a documentary.

Charlie

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by BlueMeanie on Aug 24^th, 2007, 11:09pm

MONDAY: Teacher gets shot in the head by student and dies. Makes front page news.

TUESDAY: Investigation begins and it was found killer student had been caught drawing pictures of guns. School looked the other way.

WEDNESDAY: After investigation is released, there is public outcry and damand for explanation why nothing was done prior to the tragic event.

THURSDAY: Lawyers for deceased teacher begins lawsuit on school district for failure to reprimand and councel child on psychotic behavior.

FRIDAY: Funeral for the deceased victim as town mourns the loss of teacher and just can't understand how this could happen..

Obviously this is extreme, but the point is, rules are in place for a reason. Follow the rules and you won't get suspended.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Callico on Aug 25^th, 2007, 12:19am

While I understand that home schooling is not for everyone, and that not everyone can afford for one parent to be a stay at home parent my wife and I decided that she would be a stay at home mom before we had kids. we decided we would make the sacrifices to make it possible. I don't judge anyone who decides not to do so. That was our decision.

We did not begin home schooling when our kids were small. And while we have religious convictions, did not home school in order to protect them from being exposed to other thought than ours. Actually our kids have had a much wider range of education and have had exposure to a much wider range of literature, science, history than the average high schooler before they complete jr high.

We started our oldest son at home when he entered 7th grade when we learned (along with other things like R rated films being used in 5th grade classes for sex education without parental knowledge or approval as per law) that only an average of 2 hours 20 mins per school day were being spent on core subjects in the 5th and 6th grades. (That was revealed in a School District publication) The first year of homeschooling Rich's Iowa Basic Skills test scores went up 20 points into the 90 percentile in the nation. My daughter Esther's scores went up about the same for the 5th grade. My third son Rob consistently tested in the 95 percentile all the way through high school, and he was accepted readily into college and scored a 97 out of 99 on the ASVAP test when he entered the Marines. (The average score for recruits is 51. Recruits will be accepted with a 41.) My kids are not overly brainy, but just well educated. They also are able to converse on an adult level with anyone due to the exposure to adult level thinking and teaching in the upper levels. They get plenty of social contacts through baseball, soccer, band, orchestra, church, and civic organizations.

Not all public schools are bad, just as all homeshool situations are not good. However, if you will check with educators from upper universities in this country you will find that they will give preference to those who have been homeschooled on their applications for acceptance.

Sorry this is long, but I wanted to put to rest some of the misunderstandings about home education.

Jerry

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by MR_FLOOR on Aug 25^th, 2007, 12:34am

Let me know when a real crises comes up.What a Joke.

Dave

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by BlueMeanie on Aug 25^th, 2007, 2:09am

on 08/25/07 at 00:34:54, MR_FLOOR wrote:

Let me know when a real crises comes up.What a Joke.

Dave

Well I may have got way too extreme in my example, but we have to do something to stop what is becoming an epidemic with these young kids. When the violence has gotten so bad that we need security guards and metal detectors, unfortuntely these tough rules must be adhered to in my obviously unpopular opinion.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by MR_FLOOR on Aug 25^th, 2007, 3:17am

on 08/25/07 at 02:09:50, BlueMeanie wrote:

All I'm saying is it's a picture of a gun for Christ sake.I could see if it was a picture of someone shooting someone with it,but it was just a damn picture of the gun no blood no bullets and no dead people.It's bullshit. [smiley=twocents.gif]

Dave

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Big_OUCH on Aug 25^th, 2007, 3:37am

on 08/24/07 at 23:09:39, BlueMeanie wrote:

Not all rules are just and sometimes they need to be broken to correct the injustice. If everyone always obeyed "the rules", we'd still be a segregated country. Rules are made by people and often the people who make the rules have a hidden agenda. One of the great things about the US is that the people have the courage to stand up to change bad rules and laws. To me, that is called "Patriotism".

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Brewcrew on Aug 25^th, 2007, 9:36am

The only reason the public schools exist is to create a working class that will do what it's told - the graduation event comes on April 15 every year (tax day for those of you across the ponds). To call what they do to their minds "education" is beyond a joke.

If you want your kids to grow up to be intelligent, independent thinkers, if it is at all possible, keep them out of public schools. At the very least, stay right smack dab in the middle of the school's shit 24/7, and try to counteract the marshmallow fluff that's being injected into their heads.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by nani on Aug 25^th, 2007, 9:58am

on 08/25/07 at 02:09:50, BlueMeanie wrote:

Well I may have got way too extreme in my example, but we have to do something to stop what is becoming an epidemic with these young kids. When the violence has gotten so bad that we need security guards and metal detectors, unfortunately these tough rules must be adhered to in my obviously unpopular opinion.

Not completely unpopular. I agree with you.
These are different times from when most of us were in school. It never ceases to amaze me how people are so quick to critisize public schools, when in fact, they often have an impossible job to do. To those of you with all the answers...please go spend couple of days at your local schools.

Tell me how my friend, and 8th grade science teacher, can get to know each of her 30 kids per class, 6 periods a day... so she can encourage them individually?

Tell me how the my other friend, a 1st grade teacher can focus on the 3 Rs, when she has 6 special ed (with behavior problems) kids who disrupt the classroom all day long?

Tell me how any teacher can deal with a difficult kid, when they can't even get the parents to show up for a conference?

And finally, back to the 3 Rs... how do they do that when they are dealing with families who's only reason to send kids to school is to get them out of the house for 6 hours a day?

Our teachers (most of them anyway) are doing the very best they can under difficult circumstances.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by deltadarlin on Aug 25^th, 2007, 11:33am

on 08/23/07 at 15:04:17, jimmers wrote:

WTF is next? Suspending 6-7 year olds for playing tag because you have to touch someone?

Gimme a fucking break (Sorry, this got my Irish up!) >:(

Jimmers

Why, jimmers, you re so behind here! Some schools have already stopped games just like this, because they are afraid that being *touched* by someone will lead to a lawsuit! For that matter, there are schools here in *this* parish, that do not allow 1-3 graders to mix with the opposite sex during recess because of the issue of sexual harrassment (yes, it is stupid and it points out the ignorance of the powers that be).

Zero tolerance has been found *not* to work, simply for the fact that *bad* kids are going to be *bad* whether or not the school has a policy against it. Zero tolerance is bullshit and won't do a damned thing to stop another Columbine or Pearl MS.

Look at the zero tolerance policies in some schools. Say two kids get in a fight~kid *a* walks up to kid *b* and knocks the stuffing out of kid *b*. Kid *b* defends himself. Under ZERO tolerance, both kids would be disciplined, even though kid *b* was doing nothing more than defending himself.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by phil_h on Aug 25^th, 2007, 12:27pm

[smiley=bash.gif] [smiley=bash.gif] [smiley=bunnybash.gif] [smiley=bunnybash.gif] , Go ahead suspend me from this board ..... phil h

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by sldrswyfe on Aug 27^th, 2007, 3:12pm

What an interesting thread to read...

You all have such great points...diversified...all logical in point...

Some of you should be lawyers...Im not being funny...I mean it.

This thread gave me alot of food for thought...as first, I thought "Good Grief..that was an extreme action...and it MADE THE NEWS..." until I read the counter points made.

Now, Im not quite sure what is fair or not. So many tragic events have happened at schools, that no one knows what to do anymore....and on the other hand un recognized actions have lead to mass murders...

Nani's point about one person being able to "do it all" is a very valid one...and one teachers must (good teachers) must be greatly troubled by...because they so badly want to be there for each student.

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Brewcrew on Aug 27^th, 2007, 3:16pm

on 08/27/07 at 15:12:34, sldrswyfe wrote:

Some of you should be lawyers...Im not being funny...I mean it.

Oh, my - where have I failed? ;;D

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by sldrswyfe on Aug 27^th, 2007, 5:00pm

I did not mean that being a lawyer makes anyone superior...

It does take the ability to make a good, strong point though.

And you all did...very well, they're all different, they are all good. I guess I didn't do well explaining myself with the black squiggles on a screen. ;)

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by Brewcrew on Aug 27^th, 2007, 5:05pm

on 08/27/07 at 17:00:19, sldrswyfe wrote:

I know. I's jus' hasslin' ya. ;)

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by BarbaraD on Aug 27^th, 2007, 5:27pm

on 08/23/07 at 20:06:30, Charlie wrote:

I'm with you Charlie. We played what would be considered totally violent today, but I haven't been in a good fist fight since the fifth grade (and I won that one). My son grew up with guns and hasn't shot anyone yet and he's almost 40. My grandson is learning to appreciate guns and hopefully will have respect for them as have his anscestors.

There have been BAD people since time began and there are always going to be bad people (blood, enviorment, whatever) but we shouldn't punish EVERYONE for a few. We need to put some common sense back into our lives and some PARENTING!

Home schooling is great - it should be done NIGHTLY by PARENTS! And they should KNOW what the hell is going on in OUR schools - they should be INVOLVED in what their kids are doing in schools, in the school board meetings, etc. If parents would take some responsibility we'd have less interference from the govt in the lives of our kids.

Our kids NEED to be creative or we're going to have a generation of robots.

End of Granny's rant!

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Fair or not????
Post by aubmari on Aug 27^th, 2007, 5:31pm

All very good points... I think that this just hit home with me because I have a 10 year old nephew who spends most of his free time drawing and it isn't flowers and rainbows..... he draws boy stuff. Dragons monsters and yes weapons as well.

We encourage him because he is very talented and why not give him some positive reinforcement for his talent??? In the article there was no mention of a history of bad behavior etc. and I just thing the punishment did not fit the "crime" ::) It just really makes me glad to have grown up in a different time where things like this weren't even an issue.

Makes me wonder what it will be like when my 4 year old gets into middle school. I am guessing not better.

IMHO
Aubmari