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        New Message Board Archives >> 2007 General Board Posts >> More than 15 LPM on O2?
        
(Message started by: BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 1st, 2007, 11:46pm)
Title: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 1st, 2007, 11:46pm
This cycle is a pain in the ass for the MoneeMan, O2 is not working as efficiently as it used to.  I got approval from my doc to go to 17LPM on the O2, but the DME company doesnt have regulators that go that high.  I'm gonna have to drill out the regulator I have Mr Happy style.  

I remember Rex saying he used to do O2 at 20 LPM.  Does anyone else go that high?

thanks
B$
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Guiseppi on May 1st, 2007, 11:51pm
I use a modified demand regulator, it works like a scuba regulator so I breathe 100% pure oxygen no matter how hard I draw. Don't tell your doc you have a demand regulator they get a little weird. ;;D

The regulator I use is the type paramedics use. It has a push button that feeds pure 02. I took off the plastic mouth piece and breathe right off the stone.

Guiseppi
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Racer1_NC on May 2nd, 2007, 11:33am

on 05/01/07 at 23:46:58, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
This cycle is a pain in the ass for the MoneeMan, O2 is not working as efficiently as it used to.  I got approval from my doc to go to 17LPM on the O2, but the DME company doesnt have regulators that go that high.  I'm gonna have to drill out the regulator I have Mr Happy style.  

I remember Rex saying he used to do O2 at 20 LPM.  Does anyone else go that high?

thanks
B$


Yep...I do..... Check Ebay....I got a 25 lpm regulator for around 40 bucks. YMMV.

Modified to add: http://cgi.ebay.com/used-flotec-oxygen-regulator-emt-rescue-o2_W0QQitemZ230123568290QQihZ013QQcategoryZ75080QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Bill
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Opus on May 3rd, 2007, 10:08pm
My regulator goes to 25 but I only use that at the beginning, then go back down to 15.

 If O2 worked but now doesn't or not as well, then try the O2 cooler, it is some where on this site and OUCH. I also know someone who does the same thing with ice cubes in their bubbler.

Paul
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by BB on May 3rd, 2007, 10:31pm
Hi Brian,

Sorry to hear you are having some tough time, hang in there Bro  :-*

Why do you feel you need to go higher than 15L/min ? Does the bag still inflate well when you breath in ? If the bag is still inflates to full quickly then increasing the flow may not help that much more.

Pauls suggestion to try ice in the bubbler is a great idea. Have you got a bubbler?

Sending hugs and vibes and painfree wishes.


Annette
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 4th, 2007, 12:24am
I do have a bubbler, Kirk was nice enough to give one to me.  It does make a big difference in the moisture level.

Its only for the first few minutes that i want more than 15 LPM.  Or, when I am dancing heavily, i breathe more heavily and need more air.  Once I have gotten on top of it, I generally turn the O2 down to 12 or 13 LPM.  

And your question about the bag inflating when i am breathing in, hell no.  Even at 15 LPM I feel like I am suffocating.  

I just have the regular bag, its pretty small.  I try to take slow deep breaths so that the O2 goes into the bag at the same rate I am sucking it out.  Yes, when i exhale, the bag sometimes over-inflates and I have to let some out.  I dont use a mask, i just suck directly from the bag and use my nose to exhale.

I need to get a clustermasx.....but, I'm Jewish, and I don't like to spend money.
:-/
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by BB on May 4th, 2007, 12:34am

The $man doesnt want to spend $  [smiley=huh.gif]  ?

If you accidentally exhale into the bag then the oxygen will be contaminated and you wont get 100% oxygen.

A proper non rebreather mask will allow the bag to fill up more quickly while you exhale and will prevent you from exhaling into the bag so you wont need to go up higher than 15L/min, plus its cheaper than buying a new regulator I believe.

Good luck with it all and hope the cycle eases off very soon for you.

Hugs


Annette
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Brewcrew on May 4th, 2007, 3:49pm
Hmmmm....let's see. Spend $25 on a clustermasx or feel like I'm suffocating. What should I do?

Put a f'n crowbar in your wallet, dude.
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Mr. Happy on May 4th, 2007, 4:53pm

on 05/01/07 at 23:46:58, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
I remember Rex saying he used to do O2 at 20 LPM.

What he said was.... he used to do GLUE at 20 LPM.
Rex is moving to Portland this weekend. Don't bother to try to get in touch. You don't own a Cmasx (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/tritech/index.html), and he will SHUN you.

Take 2 virgins out of petty cash, fer chrissake.
RJ
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 4th, 2007, 8:20pm
Rex is moving to Portland?

I live in Portland.  RJ, u think his 303 number will still work if I call him?


And Bill, at 15lpm, the amount of air i get sometimes feels like a drop in a bucket, and sometimes its so not enough, i need to take some breaths of regular air.  A clustermasx wont help with this, I need more LPMs.

And besides, you sound like my wife with yer 'crowbar to the wallet stuff'.    [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by mynm156 on May 7th, 2007, 8:47am
Most Flow Meters DO go higher just keep turning it as long as it turns.  This is called FLUSH.  we go it in the hospital all the time.
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Brewcrew on May 7th, 2007, 9:55am

on 05/04/07 at 20:20:31, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
And Bill, at 15lpm, the amount of air i get sometimes feels like a drop in a bucket, and sometimes its so not enough, i need to take some breaths of regular air.  A clustermasx wont help with this, I need more LPMs.

Clustermasx Ben (Ben Khan) recommends attaching a much larger bag - one that holds several times your lung capacity. I imagine you could do this with just about any non-rebreather apparatus. Make sure it's fully inflated when you start - it would probably take you quite some time to drain it since it's constantly being refilled.

Now, about that crowbar... ;;D

Edited to add: He even sends a couple bags of different sizes when you order one.
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Gator on May 7th, 2007, 4:26pm

on 05/04/07 at 20:20:31, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
And Bill, at 15lpm, the amount of air i get sometimes feels like a drop in a bucket, and sometimes its so not enough, i need to take some breaths of regular air.  A clustermasx wont help with this, I need more LPMs.


More lpm's won't necessarily help.  I had the same problem with the regular NRB mask that you're having.  The problem is the bag is too small to take a full, deep breath.

I got a clustermasx and I use the medium size bag that Ben sends with it.  Yes, I can empty the bag if I huff and puff like a steam engine, but with just the slightest bit of breath control I do not have that problem any more.  I take a full, deep breath (something you cannot do with the standard NRB mask) hold it for about 3 seconds and exhale slowly. Repeat as necessary.  The ability to completely fill my lungs is so great.  It definitely is a cure for the gasping for air feeling you get with a regular NRB.

If O2 works for you, spend the $25.

PS:  Of course, if you are just a total tightwad, you could put a bigger bag on your standard NRB mask, but you won't get the great mask to face seal you get with a clustermasx.   For me, it was definitely worth the money.
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by artonio7 on May 7th, 2007, 4:35pm

on 05/07/07 at 16:26:07, Gator wrote:
More lpm's won't necessarily help.  I had the same problem with the regular NRB mask that you're having.  The problem is the bag is too small to take a full, deep breath.

I got a clustermasx and I use the medium size bag that Ben sends with it.  Yes, I can empty the bag if I huff and puff like a steam engine, but with just the slightest bit of breath control I do not have that problem any more.  I take a full, deep breath (something you cannot do with the standard NRB mask) hold it for about 3 seconds and exhale slowly. Repeat as necessary.  The ability to completely fill my lungs is so great.  It definitely is a cure for the gasping for air feeling you get with a regular NRB.

If O2 works for you, spend the $25.

PS:  Of course, if you are just a total tightwad, you could put a bigger bag on your standard NRB mask, but you won't get the great mask to face seal you get with a clustermasx.   For me, it was definitely worth the money.


I'm definitely no expert on o2 usage, in fact I have a full M tank that is still screaming to be sucked on... (I'm waiting for a regulator), I have heard from a few reliable sources on this board that huffing on the 02 until you hyperventilate is the most efficient and effective manner for getting the o2 to work. How can one achieve this with a bag that takes so long to refill with o2?

PLEASE Excuse this if it's a stupid question.

with warm regards,
Tony
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Gator on May 7th, 2007, 5:13pm
The thing is, if you're breathing THAT fast, I don't think a 25lpm regulator will help the situation that much.  You'll still probably stay ahead of the regulator and you'll be right back to gasping for air and breathing in room air to compensate.  The theory has been advanced here a few times that just hyperventilating on plain room air would possibly abort an attack.  I haven't tried this, so I don't know if it would or not.

For me, it is comforting to be able to breathe in very deeply and concentrating on my breathing distracts somewhat from concentrating on the pain.  At 15lpm, from the time I quit inhaling, have completely exhaled and am ready to inhale again, the bag has filled completely.  With my current rig and breathing technique, I can abort most attacks in 5 to 7 minutes - about the time it takes for an imitrex injection to take effect for me.  

Is it possible to abort quicker than that?  I do not know, but I would definitely we willing to try.
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Opus on May 7th, 2007, 6:39pm
B$,

My personal experience:

When I started use O2 it took 15 mins. to abort using a 15L/m regulator and a regular Non-rebreather mask. When I got the Cluster Masx my abort time dropped to 5 Mins. When I got the 25 L/m regulator my abort time dropped to 3 Mins.

 YMMV but it is worth the $25 for sure. If you are afraid it will be wasted money I will buy the masx from you for $25 plus shipping, if you don't like it. I could always use a second but don't have a Credit card right now to buy one.


I truly doubt that if you buy the Cluster Masx that you will ever want to be without it again.

Paul
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on May 7th, 2007, 10:39pm
Thats alright Paul, I can foot the bill.  Thanks for the offer, though.

Mike, I hear what you are saying about breathing slowly, I do this as well.  I believe I get pure O2 from my bag the way I use it.  I also try not to dance, as this increases my body's requirement for air.  If I am up to a kip8 or 9 though, its tough to not dance.  Also, I get restless in my sleep when a CH is starting before i wake up.  Then, when i wake up, I am already out of breath due to the restlessness and typically need a shitload of O2, stat.

When i get calmed down and get it under control, then i roll it back to 12 or 13 lpm anyway.  The MoneeMan needs a lot of air, so 12 or 13 is my resting breath rate.  

Oh, and btw, for me, hyperventilating does not help at all.  But damn, cold water sure feels good.  Recently for me, cold water has been like a god send while the O2 takes a back seat.  

Getting nice cold pacific NW water on my eye and forehead during a clusterheadache feels like a little 'cluster orgasm'.  
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by nani on May 7th, 2007, 10:57pm

on 05/07/07 at 22:39:55, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
Getting nice cold pacific NW water on my eye and forehead during a clusterheadache feels like a little 'cluster orgasm'.  


I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I think I know what you mean by that, LOL.
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Batch on May 7th, 2007, 11:55pm
> 15 LPM flow rate is ok if you're really cycling it through your lungs.  You should be cycling at 30 breaths/min at 15 LPM given the average tidal flow volume in and out of the lungs is half a liter.

I've cranked my regulator wide open and pegged the flow meter using a standard NRB mask with a 1 liter bag with no problems.  BUT, I was able to keep up with the flow at slightly over 36 cycles/minute.  That btw, is called hyperventilating on O2 and it drives your system into respiratory alkalosis.  Both 100% O2 and respiratory alkalosis are vasoconstrictors so both should help abort the cluster headache attack.

Make sure the exhaust and intake valves are functioning properly.  Keep one hand on the bag and make sure the bag is not filling faster when you exhale.  If it is, the intake valve is not seating properly.  You'll need to exhale sharply to seat the intake valve otherwise you're filling the bag with CO2.  That will make the attack worse.  A new NRB mask or clustermasx may be a good idea.  The silicone flapper check valves get stiff after a while and may not seat properly.  Cleaning them every other day is a good idea as well

For the folks that say this flow rate is too high...  think again.  Like thousands of other Navy pilots, I flew jets off aircraft carriers for 17 years and all 3000+ flight hours were on 100% O2.  Dissimilar Air Combat Training (dog fights) and combat missions over hostile territory, all resulted in O2 flow rates in excess of 20 LPM.  After all that, I still made it back for a safe landing on the ship so it couldn't be too bad...

There's a lot more on using O2 as a CH abortive at the following url.

http://www.artonio7.com/o2.pdf

We should have it up on OUCH shortly
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by Batch on May 8th, 2007, 12:57am
Sorry I missed the cold Pacific NW water...  Try wrapping an ice cube in a paper towel and wet one side to help the heat transfer.  Place it on top of your head just off center on a line above the ear.  You may need to move it fwd or back to find the sweet spot.  It will hurt for 2 or 3 minutes then as the scalp numbs, the pain from the ice will go away.  If it works for you like it does for me, the CH pain should subside in a few minutes.  I tried an ice bag but the tactile pain on the top and side of my head was too much during a high kip hit...  a single ice cube worked much better.  I use this method on commercial flights.

I've talked to a couple neuro's at NIH and explained this method of aborting CH attacks.  They think the ice cube chilling the scalp may be causing a sympathetic constriction of the blood vessels around the trigeminal nerve.  It's worth a try.
Title: Re: More than 15 LPM on O2?
Post by artonio7 on May 8th, 2007, 2:24am

on 05/08/07 at 00:57:18, Batch wrote:
Sorry I missed the cold Pacific NW water...  Try wrapping an ice cube in a paper towel and wet one side to help the heat transfer.  Place it on top of your head just off center on a line above the ear.  You may need to move it fwd or back to find the sweet spot.  It will hurt for 2 or 3 minutes then as the scalp numbs, the pain from the ice will go away.  If it works for you like it does for me, the CH pain should subside in a few minutes.  I tried an ice bag but the tactile pain on the top and side of my head was too much during a high kip hit...  a single ice cube worked much better.  I use this method on commercial flights.

I've talked to a couple neuro's at NIH and explained this method of aborting CH attacks.  They think the ice cube chilling the scalp may be causing a sympathetic constriction of the blood vessels around the trigeminal nerve.  It's worth a try.


Thanks,

with warm regards,
Tony


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