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        New Message Board Archives >> 2007 General Board Posts >> Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
        
(Message started by: BarbaraD on May 1^st, 2007, 8:58am)

Title: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by BarbaraD on May 1^st, 2007, 8:58am

Friday, my nephew was on the way to LINDEN Texas to the family reunion when he went thru TENEHA Texas (a hole in the road at best). He must have looked suspicious with his wife and two kids in the car (year and half baby and a 10 year old) cause the local police stopped him before he got out of town and asked him what he was doing. He explained that he was on the way to a family reunion.

He was carrying about $6,600 with him (with the idea of putting a down payment on a car his dad had told him about). The police immediately hauled him and his family to the local police station - cleaned out his car (they said looking for drugs).

Now Ronny's mother was part Mexican (legal) so he has a little bit of a mexican look, but his name is Henderson for goodness sakes! He's NEVER been in ANY trouble (his Dad raised him after his parents were divorced) in Linden Texas. He owns a business in Houston. They didn't let him call anyone.

Long story short -- they TOOK his money after threatening him with putting him and his wife in jail and calling CPS to take the kids if they didn't give up the money. faced with them taking the kids, he told them to keep the money - just let them out of Teneha.

His Dad is really upset and I'm madder than a wet hen. I called my attorney for him yesterday and he's meeting with him today. My attorney said they can't do this and I think we're sueing Teneha and I'm ready to call the National Media and break their little ring of crooks wide open. Ronnie is still in shock and his wife is almost hysterical thinking that they could just take her kids like that.

But because he looked Mexican and was driving thru a small town - he naturally had to be running drugs! They even asked if he was illegal! He didn't even take Spanish in high school and can't speak a word of it. The damn cop was trying to talk to him in Spanish... Ronnie finally told him he didn't understand Spanish and the cop called him a liar.

I told Royce (Ronnie's dad) that I thought when we got thru with those local yokels we should be able to get enough out of them that Ronnie would be able to retire and take care of "us" in the manner we wished to become accustomed. I'm not big on lawsuits, but this is one time I think a town needs to be taken to the cleaners. Aunt Barb can get really pissy when you mess with one of her chickens.....

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by jimmers on May 1^st, 2007, 9:06am

Barb,

I would persue this to the ends of the earth. This is no time to skimp on a lawyer, so have him hire the best one he can afford. I WOULD go to the TV station with this story, not just the local station, maybe one with a larger audience. >:(

Jimmers

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Paul98 on May 1^st, 2007, 9:06am

Holly $hit Barb!

Sounds like the police in that town are fleecing folks. Perhaps a call the ACLU, the state attorney and a GOOD lawyer are in order. DOCUMENT EVERYTHING!!!

Good luck.

-P.

Edit: Stay away from dealing with anyone from that town; be it lawyers, media etc.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by aprilbee on May 1^st, 2007, 9:20am

That is horrible! I hope you put that town out of business! Shame on them.... >:(

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by LeLimey on May 1^st, 2007, 9:23am

The whole bloody lot of them belong in jail - how on earth do they think they can get away with stuff like this? Its just dreadful >:(

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Mosaicwench on May 1^st, 2007, 9:25am

I wonder if they pulled me over if they would try to speak Dutch to me . . . after all I'm blonde and blue-eyed and my great-grandparents immigrated to this country in the 1800's . . . . .

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by ClusterChuck on May 1^st, 2007, 9:34am

on 05/01/07 at 08:58:50, BarbaraD wrote:

Aunt Barb can get really pissy when you mess with one of her chickens.....

Ummmm . Let's not get kinky now .. Too much to do ...

You GO, Aunt Barb!!! Start kicking ass, and fuck taking thier names! That is a disgrace, an abomination, a farce!

They need to be put down, and PUT DOWN HARD!!!

Want to round up the Clusterville militia?

Chuck

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Maffumatt on May 1^st, 2007, 9:56am

Linden is no better Barb, rotten to the core. If your not old money there, your nobody.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by nani on May 1^st, 2007, 9:57am

You people are effen killin' me. You think because he's half white, he can sue? LMAO.

Welcome to the real world, Ronny....and I'm sorry that happened to you. Keep your head up high.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Racer1_NC on May 1^st, 2007, 11:09am

Sounds more like dirty cops running a scam than anything else.......just using the ethnic / drug angle as a cover. No telling how many people they have relieved of excess cash that way......

Modified to add: I'd contact the State Police and file criminal charges as well as filling a civil suit.

Bill

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by aprilbee on May 1^st, 2007, 11:13am

on 05/01/07 at 09:57:26, nani wrote:

You people are effen killin' me. You think because he's half white, he can sue? LMAO.

I don't think anyone here is saying he can sue because of the color of his skin...

but what about extortion, or blackmail, threatening to take his children if he didn't hand over the money? It doesn't matter what color you are....its wrong and something should be done about it...

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Maffumatt on May 1^st, 2007, 11:16am

A state trooper there was pulling girls over and coercing them into having sex, I know two of them, 11 came forward. He got six months probation. Don't count on winning Barbara.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by George_J on May 1^st, 2007, 11:23am

At the very least, I don't see how they could keep the cash without evidence that it was intended to be used in a criminal activity, or that it is the proceeds resulting from criminal activity. If they took possession of it with the idea that they can initiate civil forfeiture against the money, it's pretty damn thin from what you're telling us.

I presume that he got some sort of paperwork when they seized the money.

Get the lawyers on it--this is what they live for.

Sorry this happened to you.

Best wishes,

George

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Rosybabe on May 1^st, 2007, 11:25am

I went with my husband to Cd. Camargo in Mexico, it makes border with Rio Grande, TX.
We went to do a favor to a good friend of us who has a home in there and she wanted us to pay her taxes on her property and her utilities rent also, we thought we could go and stop to get some medicines for my CH across the border and save some money on my cafergot..

well in the way back, we were stop by customs and they told us to get out of the truck and they started hitting the truck with sticks and they pull the seats out and the carpet and they let a dog in and then they started making questions to both uf us...

We were ther for over 3 hours until finaly they decided to let us go , we did not have any money because we already spent it at the other side, we paid this lady stuff so I am glad we did not had that with us anymore, we only had our credit cards and they could not take those of course...

They said they were looking for drugs ...well we did not have them, why they had to keep us there for so long??

Barb, you go ahead and file the lawsuit please, this racial profiling is getting out of control. My husband is irish american but I am from Mexico and they sure stop us because of that.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Jackie on May 1^st, 2007, 11:27am

Money...what money? Are you crazy? That dude didn't have $6,600 on him.

Hmmmmm...should be interesting to see how this plays out.

Fuck them up, Barbara.....If you can. I'm really hoping you can.

Jacks 8)

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by BB on May 1^st, 2007, 11:47am

Will the legal cost be more than $6000?

I can understand your anger Barbara, I would be fuming too.

However, lawyers a very expensive, they charge an average of $300 per hour for their service.

You may get your $6000 back but then owe the solicitor $15000 in fees. It happens.

I would keep my cool and do a bit or research and enquiry here first as to the chance of winning and what can I get compensated for vs cost.

Its sad that such things are happening in a free country like yours.

All the best.

Annette

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Redd on May 1^st, 2007, 11:52am

I hope he got the officer/s name/s and badge numbers?

Gawd this sort of thing burns my ass. A few years ago, I was stopped. Three squads had spot lights on me and my then black Ford Taurus, one of the squads was a K9 unit and they searched my car for drugs. After finding nothing, two of the squads left and the original officer then put me through a field sobriety test and then blood test after the breath test was lower than the legal limit. They had to make the stop worthwhile don't-cha-know. Well, once I got out of the damn drunk tank in the morning, got my car home, I called the station and asked when a copy of the report would be ready as i wanted one for my records. You see, the tickets were written out for DWI and speeding in a construction zone. Th3ey had not only the color of my car wrong, but the wrong year, and they stated that the offence occured on the highway at the intersection of two NON-Existant streets. So when I went to get the report of that...low and behold, there was no mention of the events as they took place, no mention of the K9 unit being at the sceen, the search of my car...nothing.

The speeding ticket was dropped, but because I was taken for the blood test and it came back .01 point above legal limit I got the DWI and all the fines that went with it.

Cops cover up whatever they want. If the cash was confiscated while at the stop, rather than at the precinct, sounds like a damn dirty cop, and a sting operation my be in order to nab the jackass.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by nani on May 1^st, 2007, 12:00pm

on 05/01/07 at 11:13:02, aprilbee wrote:

Sorry, what I was trying to say was very clear in my head, LOL. My point, and I do have one, is that this is happening every single day in communitites all across the US. Mostly to people who feel, or actually are, powerless to do anything about it. Funny how nobody really cares until it happens to someone we know.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by aprilbee on May 1^st, 2007, 12:18pm

on 05/01/07 at 12:00:32, nani wrote:

I feel ya! It is unfortunate those small town ~~crooks~~ uh I mean cops get away with something like that...

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by LeLimey on May 1^st, 2007, 12:35pm

Its not 'cos it happened to someone I know that I feel outraged, you just so seldom hear of something like this happening so in all honesty, most of us aren't aware that it really takes place. Its horrific and has to be stopped and stopped with a bloody great bot so anyone else thinking about scams like this learns to think twice.
I just think it's absolutely outrageous no matter who it happens to or where it happens

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by BarbaraD on May 1^st, 2007, 12:43pm

They just called from the lawyer's office. He called the DA down there and she copped an attitude with him. Lawyer Bill just loves that (he very seldom loses his cool). He just told her to do her damnest cause when he hung up he was calling the FBI. Hope she's thinking that one over. Jen said Lawyer Bill was steaming... that's a good sign. That means he's gonna go for their balls (I've dealt with him for the past 25 years and know that sign well! When he gets like this he WINS!)

That DA might oughta checked up on Lawyer Bill before she got smart with him. She don't know who he knows. And his office mate is the son of a long time US Rep (dec now, but still has some BIG TIME contacts and is one of my classmates). This could turn into a federal case before it's over. Lawyer Bill has a classmate who just happens to be Kaye Bailey Hutchinson. And his daughter's roommate just happens to be a granddaughter of the Cox empire. Ummmmmmm....

This may take some time, but I figure Ronny will come out ok before it's over. Hope it was worth $6,600 to that cop and DA. Don't think they're gonna be around too much longer. Wonder if McD's has any openings?

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Rosybabe on May 1^st, 2007, 12:54pm

[smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=thumb.gif]

Great!!

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by BarbaraD on May 1^st, 2007, 1:34pm

This is getting more and more interesting. Lawyer Bill called the FBI and lo and behold -- they KNEW the nice policeman by name.... seems he used to be a state trooper but got FIRED for the same thing and is now one of the city of Teneha's finest. Ronnie and Jen are on their way to FBI headquarters to file an official complaint on the DA and the nice policeman. The seem to want to go after them....

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Rosybabe on May 1^st, 2007, 1:38pm

That is even better, This guy has already a profile, more points on Ronnie's favor...tell him to file a lawsuit also for pain and suffering, at least he will get something for his little ones college fund. ;)

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by JJA on May 1^st, 2007, 2:28pm

on 05/01/07 at 11:23:34, George_J wrote:

Believe it or not, due to the erosion of the constitution due to the drug war, just having that much cash is considered evidence of illicit activity, despite the 4th amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized," or the 5th amendment: "No person shall...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

The reasoning goes like this: despite the fact that you (a US citizen) have rights, your cash, which is not a citizen has no rights. You are innocent until proven guilty, but your cash is guilty until proven innocent. The police can take your property without charging you with a crime and you have to raise a civil suit against the government and prove your cash is innocent to get it back.

Idiotic, no? Thank your local drug warrior. (I thought CH.com was overdue for a drug policy reform lecture.)

Good luck. If the FBI turns the screws, hopefully the police will have a change of heart

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by chewy on May 1^st, 2007, 3:25pm

I would contact the local FBI office. Sounds like a shakedown scam to me.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Turts on May 1^st, 2007, 3:43pm

why hasnt anyone contacted Walker: texas ranger yet? :-/

he'd have it sorted out by now! ;;D

Wishing your family all the best with this battle.
Sounds like it is heading in your favor.

Turts

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Kevin_M on May 1^st, 2007, 3:58pm

Barb, here's a case, the lead sentence only in the story, of a pursuit of racial profiling against our local police. Difficult avenue, however, the taking of money by the seeming duress of child-taking hopefully will come clean.

The FBI cleaned up 22 city administrators in a different matter here.

Quote:

After seven years of litigation, a family's legal dispute with Eastpointe city officials that stemmed from allegations of racial profiling failed to win damages from a jury.

All the way to U.S. Court of Appeals.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by chewy on May 1^st, 2007, 4:02pm

Quote:

so he has a little bit of a mexican look

Why didn't they just test him?

"Can you build a deck boy?"

"Nope."

"Your free to go."

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by aprilbee on May 1^st, 2007, 4:10pm

on 05/01/07 at 16:02:19, chewy wrote:

Why didn't they just test him?

"Can you build a deck boy?"

"Nope."

"Your free to go."

ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh you're soooooooooooooo baaaaaaaaaad!!!!!!!! [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by deltadarlin on May 1^st, 2007, 4:24pm

Let's do this, pretend that Ronny had blonde hair, blue eyes and skin so fair that he freckled under a light bulb. Did a crime still occur? Were Ronny and his family still threatened and shaken down? Did the police take cash that wasn't lawfully theirs? Did Ronny's wife and kids still feel terrified and quite possibly now, the kids (the older one at least) may be afraid of men in uniforms?

If the answer to any of the above questions is yes, then this is a matter for both civil and criminal court.

'darlin

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Jackie on May 1^st, 2007, 4:37pm

on 05/01/07 at 11:47:34, BB wrote:

I hear what you are saying, BB......but sometimes it's gotta be about principle. If not how does this shit ever stop?

Fighting this battle is the right thing to do.

Jacks 8)

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by deltadarlin on May 1^st, 2007, 4:56pm

Done right, it's probably winnable in a civil case. Quite a few attorneys would take a case like this on a contingency fee. If they think they can win this, the attorney can collect his fees upon the lawsuit being settled.

Now, what strikes me as funny is that one of the officers in question had already lost one job because of behavior unbecoming an officer of the law, yet he's working for another agency? I wonder why the state police didn't file charges? Stinks does it not?

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by George_J on May 1^st, 2007, 5:00pm

on 05/01/07 at 14:28:41, JJA wrote:

The reasoning goes like this: despite the fact that you (a US citizen) have rights, your cash, which is not a citizen has no rights. You are innocent until proven guilty, but your cash is guilty until proven innocent. The police can take your property without charging you with a crime and you have to raise a civil suit against the government and prove your cash is innocent to get it back.

Note that I said "keep".

In civil asset forfeiture, the government must present probable cause that the item in question was intended for use in a criminal activity, or is the fruit of criminal activity. This distinguishes it from criminal asset forfeiture, which the government must show was intended for nefarious use beyond a reasonable doubt. The vast majority of asset forfeiture cases these days are civil asset forfeitures.

In subsequent proceedings, the claimant (owner of the money in this case) must show, by a preponderance of the evidence, that it was not intended for use in a criminal activity, nor was it the fruits of criminal activity. If the government does not show probable cause, and the claimant can show that the asset was not intended for use in a criminal activity and that it was not the fruits of criminal activity, then the forfeiture will fail.

From what I'm hearing here, there is no evidence whatsoever that the money was intended for criminal use. Nor is there any evidence that the money was gained in any criminal activity. Should push come to shove and asset forfeiture is initiated, the claimant ought to be able to show where the money came from and for what use it was intended.

That being said, Nani is right--this sort of thing happens every day to people in this country who are powerless or who feel themselves powerless. If the asset forfeiture proceedings are not contested, the state will win by default. Perhaps that's what these bozos were counting on--if they were counting at all.

Asset forfeiture has gotten to be big business in government. I don't think it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water, but I agree that it's time we had a dialogue about it in this country. I have seen plenty of civil asset forfeitures, and some of them aren't pretty.

End of rant.

Best,

George

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Jonny on May 1^st, 2007, 5:31pm

on 05/01/07 at 17:00:55, George_J wrote:

I wouldnt doubt George on any of the above info, me thinks he knows alot more about it than most here....LOL ;;D

And Delta is right about lawyers, Ive sued three people in my lifetime and they just take a cut of how much I got.....no biggie ;)

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Charlie on May 1^st, 2007, 7:06pm

Sounds good so far Barb. What a nice bunch down there....... >:(

Damn. I was hoping to see you on CNN too.

You're doing it just right kid.

Bill Maher is right that we spend all our time chasing the wrong thing. Time to decriminalize drugs anyway. The DEA has stomped all over the Constitution long enough.

Charlie

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Kevin_M on May 1^st, 2007, 7:20pm

on 05/01/07 at 17:31:20, Jonny wrote:

I wouldnt doubt George on any of the above info, me thinks he knows alot more about it than most here....LOL ;;D

Going back through the two-inch stack from '95, I do find an "affidavit in support of complaint for forfeiture". Ditto for '97.

on 05/01/07 at 17:00:55, George_J wrote:

If the asset forfeiture proceedings are not contested, the state will win by default.

It was a $250.00 bond in order to be able to contest the forfeiture and must be contested within 20 days in this state, or default will occur.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Jonny on May 1^st, 2007, 7:27pm

on 05/01/07 at 15:43:47, Turts wrote:

why hasnt anyone contacted Walker: texas ranger yet? :-/

he'd have it sorted out by now! ;;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grg0Yfz8k2A

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by BarbaraD on May 1^st, 2007, 7:51pm

Ya know we DID contact the Texas Rangers one time (on a different matter) and they sent the most idiotic idiot I think I've ever seen. I filed a complaint about him. Walker he weren't! Now I've got my doubts about the Texas Rangers. This idiot was playing politics and it wasn't on our side. Objective he wasn't and he sided with the "bad" guys. We had ironclad facts and figures and he didn't even look at them.

Now the FBI - I've still got hopes for. A friend of mine's son is FBI and from what I see of him - they're sincere. And he calls his mother after he's been undercover for a while to let her know he's ok. He's a good boy. QWe'll see what they do in Teneha.

I agree with Jackie -- sometimes it's the principal of the thing. A lot of people are so structured to "not mess with authority" that they just let things go. I wasn't raised that way. My Daddy always said, If you're right - stand up for it!

And Charlie just wait == CNN may get a shot at this before it's over. I'm a great believer in the media to stir the pot. May even get Sharpton and Jackson in on this one (they haven't had any air time in a week or so). At least they're loud!

The money was their tax return (maybe it was dirty money - it came from the government ;) ) and they were going to use it for a car. I'm still not believing something like this can happen.

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by BarbaraD on May 1^st, 2007, 8:02pm

I want to say something so there will be no misunderstanding anything I've said so far.

The policemen and DA I'm talking about are in Teneha TX and nothing I've said reflects on any other hardworking policemen or public officials.

This is a lot like the thread on Catholic priests a few days ago -- one rotten apple in the barrel.

I know there are a lot of GOOD policemen out there and those I respect and am glad they are there.

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by George_J on May 1^st, 2007, 8:22pm

on 05/01/07 at 19:51:16, BarbaraD wrote:

The money was their tax return

:)

That's a good thing. Very straightforward, and easily demonstrated.

Frankly, I'll be surprised if they ever file forfeiture against the money--particularly if they feel some heat. If they do, they're even dumber than they sound. And the longer they hold on to it, the more trouble they're going to buy down the road.

One other thing if you don't mind, Barbara--what was the pretext for the traffic stop? If it's something bogus, that's not going to help them either.

Best,

George

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Racer1_NC on May 1^st, 2007, 8:28pm

I'd bet until the local DA got the first phone call that cash was in several back pockets. They are more than likely hurrying to cover their collective rear ends about now. Be prepared for reports containing things that never happened.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by George_J on May 1^st, 2007, 10:27pm

Not to get off-topic here, but....

Dang, Bill. What IS that thing on your icon? Looks like a Viking's dinner.

;)

Best,

George

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by JJA on May 2^nd, 2007, 9:08am

on 05/01/07 at 17:00:55, George_J wrote:

Asset forfeiture has gotten to be big business in government. I don't think it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water, but I agree that it's time we had a dialogue about it in this country. I have seen plenty of civil asset forfeitures, and some of them aren't pretty.

Well, it seems like you know more how it is than I do...

Still it seems pretty simple as to how it should be. If you're not convicted of a crime, the government shouldn't be able to take your property.

...and if wishes were horses then beggars would ride.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Kevin_M on May 2^nd, 2007, 9:26am

on 05/02/07 at 09:08:18, JJA wrote:

If you're not convicted of a crime, the government shouldn't be able to take your property.

The defense against charges is one case, then comes the civil forfeiture case, two cases to pay a lawyer for.

One defense strategy: Police spend 4 - 6 months on investigation, you go to jail, city recoups no money.
"Looking at 6 years or more and a felony or two on your record for life, how 'bout we let the city win on their very weak forfeiture case which I know I can beat them on, in a deal to drop the felony charges, everyone wins here, all in one case, and I'll deal them down on the forfeiture amount."

The city could lose on the felony charges also, but do you want to take that chance on a second offense in violation of probation? The old third offense from '81 never came up luckily. All of that is up in the air before you walk into the courtroom that day.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Kevin_M on May 2^nd, 2007, 10:07am

When you said this, I got confused because I would tend to believe it to be not true and appears not right, which seemingly applies to Barb's case here.

on 05/01/07 at 14:28:41, JJA wrote:

The police can take your property without charging you with a crime...

But when you said "not convicted", there are cases where it can happen, which is why I posted above.

on 05/02/07 at 09:08:18, JJA wrote:

If you're not convicted of a crime, the government shouldn't be able to take your property.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by George_J on May 2^nd, 2007, 10:20am

on 05/02/07 at 10:07:06, Kevin_M wrote:

When you said this, I got confused because I would tend to believe it to be not true and appears not right, which seemingly applies to Barb's case here.

He's right. Civil forfeiture can be initiated when a person has not been charged with any crime.

http://judiciary.senate.gov/oldsite/civilass.htm

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Kevin_M on May 2^nd, 2007, 10:24am

on 05/02/07 at 10:20:01, George_J wrote:

He's right. Civil forfeiture can be initiated when a person has not been charged with any crime.

That was the first thing I looked for in this case George and couldn't find it but found the affidavit in support of forfeiture. I wasn't sure about that. Thanks.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by JJA on May 2^nd, 2007, 10:24am

No, it's true. The government can take your property without even charging you with a crime.

Quote:

Forfeiture, the government seizure of property connected to illegal activity, has been a major weapon in the Federal government's "war on drugs" since the mid-eighties....[snip]
...Forfeiture takes two distinct forms -- criminal and civil. Nearly all contemporary forfeiture involves the civil variety. Criminal forfeiture operates as punishment for a crime. It, therefore, requires a conviction, following which the state takes the assets in question from the criminal. Civil forfeiture rests on the idea (a legal fiction) that the property itself, not the owner, has violated the law. Thus, the proceeding is directed against the res, or the thing involved in some illegal activity specified by statute. Unlike criminal forfeiture, in rem forfeiture does not require a conviction or even an official criminal charge against the owner.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/background/forfeiture/

Edit: Oops too late. Sorry. Didn't mean to beat a dead horse here...

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Kevin_M on May 2^nd, 2007, 10:43am

I see, especially this part:

Quote:

Civil forfeiture rests on the idea (a legal fiction) that the property itself, not the owner, has violated the law. Thus, the proceeding is directed against the res, or the thing involved in some illegal activity specified by statute.

From George's link, this seems to be the case here:

Quote:

In order to seize property for civil forfeiture, the government need have only probable cause that the property is subject to forfeiture. The government can use otherwise inadmissible hearsay to establish probable cause.

Once the government makes a threshold showing of probable cause, the burden shifts to the property owner to prove that the property is not subject to forfeiture by the higher standard of a preponderance of the evidence.

...

A brief examination of federal civil forfeiture law illustrates why this is troubling and why there is far more potential for wrongful forfeitures and abuse in civil forfeiture than in criminal forfeiture.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by George_J on May 2^nd, 2007, 10:59am

on 05/02/07 at 10:43:03, Kevin_M wrote:

And it seems they do not have to prove this "illegal activity" the property has been involved in, you have to prove it is all clean, without charges against you. This seems to be the case here.

Correct. However, the government still has to show probable cause. Granted, that is not a very high standard, but it's considerably more than nothing--which is what I'm hearing in this particular case.

One favorite used to be to test the money for traces of illegal drugs, thereby attempting to establish probable cause for asset forfeiture. But (and I doubt that a lot of people know this) a considerable percentage of hundred-dollar bills selected at random will test positive for traces of illegal drugs. I don't think this flies quite as well as it used to, but don't hold me to it.

Best,

George

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Kevin_M on May 2^nd, 2007, 11:12am

I edited my post before this one when I saw similar as you replied that the probable cause issue needed to be addressed and checked your link again. :)

on 05/02/07 at 10:59:36, George_J wrote:

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Racer1_NC on May 2^nd, 2007, 11:25am

on 05/01/07 at 22:27:55, George_J wrote:

Not to get off-topic here, but....

Dang, Bill. What IS that thing on your icon? Looks like a Viking's dinner.

It's a graphic representation of how my head feels after a battle with the beast. ;)

Bill

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Maffumatt on May 2^nd, 2007, 12:26pm

You guys have to realize that this is East Texas, its not about the (law) but who you are, and who you know. Sad but true. Sounds like Barbara is in the who you know group so it might work out for them.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by BarbaraD on May 2^nd, 2007, 1:49pm

The bad part was they "said" they issued a "warning" ticket for being in the wrong traffic lane (they had just come around a traffic loop and were in the left lane trying to get in the right lane for their exit with their blinker on - when they got in the right lane the police lights went on). But the kids NEVER got a copy of the ticket. They were just told that's why they were stopped.

But when the DA was talking to Lawyer Bill, she referred to Ronny as "that wetback". And she was IN on the money taking. She was the one who threatened them with taking the children.

Lawyer Bill told me to "hold off" (he knows me) on notifying the press for a few days until he tells me it's ok to go ahead. I'm just getting my "list" together now. If anyone has any contacts - let me know. I really don't intend to let it drop.

One of my friends told me that money right out of the bank would test positive for drugs. That's weird. So now we've got to prove that the money is Clean or IT'S guilty?

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by midwestbeth on May 3^rd, 2007, 4:52pm

Barbara D,

The coruption of this really pisses me off. It is the principle of the matter. Also, if you did not go after them, the coruption will continue. I wonder how many people these ~~crooks~~ officers of the law shook down before this incident?

Good luck to you and your family. Sending lots of vibes your way.

Beth

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by chucknot on May 5^th, 2007, 6:44pm

"One of my friends told me that money right out of the bank would test positive for drugs. That's weird. So now we've got to prove that the money is Clean or IT'S guilty?"

I recall hearing about this recently. But I would not think you would have to prove anything as this information is in the public domain and the common percentages (traces) of drugs on legal tender are known to the Treasury as well as banking institutions by in large. So, they would need to prove that the traces were beyond the range of the norm...which would mean nothing anyway at this point as there has apparently been no siezure with itemized serial numbers and property list provided to your son. In short they actually have no evidence beyond thier own claims and alleged traffic/arrest records of the time.

I imagine there have been no racial limits to these guys profiling...most likely it has been Out of State/ Out of Town plates that they have profiled...the ad hoc claims come after the pull over.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by chucknot on May 5^th, 2007, 6:49pm

"In short they actually have no evidence beyond thier own claims and alleged traffic/arrest records of the time. "

Put it this way, with no due process of siezure...what money, which monies and how was it adulterated while in possesion of local law enforcement?

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by sldrswyfe on May 6^th, 2007, 10:59am

This is exactly why I get so angry when people stick up for the cops...and say "there's good ones too"...WHERE???

In Fl, some guy ripped me out of my car, beat the living shit out of me, and stole my car. He first bodily slammed me into the concrete when he ripped me out of the vehicle by my arm, then I got up and went after him...he hit me in the face so hard he knocked me down again...I got up AGAIN...jumped in front of him in the drivers seat, with half of my body hanging out of the car...I was attempting to pull my keys out of the ingnition....he floored it...drug the tops of my feet over concrete about fifteen to twenty feet, and I lost my grip and landed on my face on the cement...

I called the police..the sides of my eyes were already turning black, my lip was cut badly, my face was severly brush burned...the skin above my lip was ripped off, my feet were bloody...and the cops GAVE ME A HARD TIME...searching ME...asking if I was having sex with the guy who stole my car!!!!!! My handbag was in the vehicle...therefore my ID was too...they bitched me out about THAT too...and basically did nothing. NOTHING.

So you do what you have to Barb...I'd love to see justice done once in awhile...best of luck to you and Ronny... S

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Rosybabe on May 6^th, 2007, 5:22pm

I am sorry for what happened to you Sherri, but there are some good men in the police dept...

We met a very good one, who will stop to check on us every two weeks, just to chat and check if we had any more vandalism (some gang decided to make our neighborhood their favorite target and broke our van's back window 5 times, yes 5 times!!)..

once He stop to ask me to close my garage door all the way down because He saw it open a little bit and told me that any teenager would croll under it and steal whatever my husband had inside (a bunch of tools some very expensive)...

He will stop and talk to the kids about riding bikes on the streets, etc..

He got kill few months ago during a traffic stop and consecuent arrest of a guy without a license, the guy shoot him in the head several times, plain day time, just a few blocks of my home...

We will miss him so much, God have him in his glory...
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7db27b3127cce840357a0314000000015108Absmbds5bM4
R.I.P. Officer Rodney Johnson.

Please do not judge the whole basket of apples for a few rotten ones..

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by sldrswyfe on May 6^th, 2007, 7:31pm

Rosy,

I am sorry for the loss of your dear friend...and only wish HE would've showed up the night my car got stolen.

I hope he rests in peace..... Thoughtfully,

Sherri

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Jimi on May 6^th, 2007, 10:41pm

Mighty broad brush that you are using there sldrswyfe to paint all "cops" with. I can think of 4 right here in clusterville and I would stick up for all 4 of them. >:(

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by sldrswyfe on May 7^th, 2007, 10:56am

Jimi,

I truly do apologize to you...you personally...I did not know you were an officer...but I know you are a great person.

I have to be honest...I have had MANY bad experiences with the police...mostly in the South...but some I dont even want to say...involving, blackmail in a sense...as well as not taking a woman obviously physically beaten seriously...and believe me it got worse...but it's not even worth talking about...it's ok that I was brutally beaten...but I better watch what I say...

If this were your wife, daughter, mother...that was brutally beaten...would you have first have corrected them...said "Hey, you better watch it lady..." or would've you had a little empathy toward them..saying "Hey, I know you're really upset right now, you went through a horrible thing..but there really are officers that care...I assure you"?

My feelings are not unique...by a long shot. And Jimi, of course other cops are going stick up for other cops...you know that..isn't that one of the main problems for us "non" cops?

I was just simply replying to a post, and could relate to it..Barbara's nephew went through a horribly unjust situation...unfortunately, many of us understand. Period.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Jimi on May 7^th, 2007, 12:06pm

Quote:

I truly do apologize to you...you personally...I did not know you were an officer...but I know you are a great person.

Well I certainly can't argue with that ;) Apology accepted.

I have had the pleasure of arresting a few
firefighters,ex-cops, lawyers andwas even involved in an investigation where we ended up arresting the Sheriff of the county in which I live. I too hate anyone in authority who are "dirty" including cops.

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by BarbaraD on May 7^th, 2007, 2:31pm

Every community has it's bad apples. Good grief - in Longview the whole damn courthouse got arrested (and most of 'em went to jail), but it hasn't happened since. Matt talks about Cass County, but I've got a cousin in the Sheriff's dept that I sure want on my side in a pinch. In fact the whole dept has been exceptionally good about checking things on my hill out here. If they see something out of the ordinary, they stop and ask what's going on (may just be nosey, but I get the low down on the neighbors too).

I'm a big supporter of law enforcement, but think the bad apples need to be weeded out and I don't think too many people will disagree with that. But there are jerks in every profession - they need to go also. But (on my soapbox again) until people start paying attention to what's going on and GET INVOLVED ain't nothing gonna change. (end of soapbox rant).

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by Jackie on May 7^th, 2007, 2:43pm

Jimi wrote: Apology accepted

Jimi......You are a class act....always have been.

Love to you,

Jackie

Hmmm...wondering why my 'quote' won't work...

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by taraann on May 7^th, 2007, 2:59pm

OMG Barb this sounds like something out of a bad movie! I definately would persue this! What is this county coming to?! :-/

Title: Re: Racial Profiling! In MY family!!!!!!
Post by artonio7 on May 8^th, 2007, 2:43am

on 05/07/07 at 14:59:44, taraann wrote:

OMG Barb this sounds like something out of a bad movie! I definately would persue this! What is this county coming to?! :-/

As long as she has the ability to do something about it... it's business as usual in the good old US of A.... I dread the day when she wouldn't stand a chance.

with warm regards,
Tony