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(Message started by: JenniferD on Apr 19th, 2007, 1:54pm)
Title: Let the revolution begin
Post by JenniferD on Apr 19th, 2007, 1:54pm
This is from my daughter, Hannah, who asked me to post to you.


yes, cho, let the revolution begin.
those were his words: "let the revolution begin!"

yes, let the revolution begin. this is a challenge?

bring it on.

this IS the begining of a revoution. revolution begins when people get fed up. they get pissed. they get active. they rebel against the mainstream. yes, this is a revolution.

people are fed up with listening to tragedy on the news. people are sick of watching people get shot, get robbed, blow each other up, hate each other. people are sick of it. they are tired of sadness, of hurt, of apathy. they are tired of watching our mainstream culture become more and more disenchanted, brutal, calloused.

now, we get active.

let the last shot Cho pulled be the last bullet. let it be the fatal wound, yes, let it be a killer. that last bullet is the end. it is the death of a culture that allows violence against themselves and each other. it is the death of apathy. it is the death of hate, the death of our ignorance. please, someone talk to me, who isn't changed because of this. there is no one left untouched, but let no one be mislead: there will be rebirth after this. there is hope, there is so much hope. and the flower that will bloom from this disaster will have unchallanged beauty.

love never fails,
hannah
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Rosybabe on Apr 19th, 2007, 1:56pm
yes, love never fails, it is what keep us going...
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Sandy_C on Apr 19th, 2007, 2:51pm

on 04/19/07 at 13:54:12, JenniferD wrote:
This is from my daughter, Hannah, who asked me to post to you.


yes, cho, let the revolution begin.
those were his words: "let the revolution begin!"

yes, let the revolution begin. this is a challenge?

bring it on.


First of all, you should be very proud of Hannah for asking you to post this.  She's one very astute young woman.

Is this a challenge?  I think Cho meant it to be one, but, I also think it SHOULD be one.

The apathy among the US citizens is disgusting.  Just on my local level (not even going to go into the national level), most of the "voters" go the polls and vote for a person just because they recognize the name.  The rest, don't vote at all, yet complain the loudest when their taxes go up.  Nobody seems to actually read about, research about, learn about the people who they are about to elect to represent them.  They deserve exactly what they get.

Maybe this tragedy at Virginia Tech will open a few eyes.  Maybe Cho's challenge will open a few ears and minds.

APATHY!  This is what is going to bring this country to its knees, and maybe it is time for a challenge.

I personally will challenge each and every one of you who read this thread to stop being the following lamb.  To stop expecting the "status quo".  To stop expecting your local or national government to "take care of you". To stop voting the "party" and start voting the man/woman.

How about starting to take stock of what's happening in all aspects of this country, from your local dog catcher, which effects you personally, to national issues that effect us all.

I vote for making the word apathy a thing of the past.  

So, is it time for a revolution in this country?  Quite possibly.  But, it will never happen until we all face the fact that this world is changing rapidly, and "status quo" is a thing of the past.  

Sorry, off soapbox now.

Sandy  
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Mac_Muz on Apr 19th, 2007, 2:53pm
JenniferD,

I don't know what that means, but if it is giving up Liberty and giving up the Right to bear arms, currently the polls are about 60/40 in favor of being armed.

Unfortunately being armed is the only way for being safe, and having liberty.

These events we are faced with have been brought to us by the anti gun people who want to just get along no matter the price.

My family suffered murder by knife Easter 99, of 2 elderly people, one a female laywer working past retirement, and her husband a 30 year military disarmed by the state, who also worked Kodak another 30 years as classifed.

The crimonal had been shot in the ankel the day before for stealing knives and the bleeding hearts released him.

Later we found for years he had torched little animals and pets, and became bolder and bolder each time being socialy up graded.

You yourself are responcible for you and yours, make no mistake. No one else will do this task for you.
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Sandy_C on Apr 19th, 2007, 5:40pm
I'm sorry that this entire situation happened to you and your family.

Let me say from the get go...US citizens have the absolute right to bear arms.  OK, are we straight on this.

The shooter at Virginia Tech was an exchange student, living in this country LEGALLY,but was not a citizen of this country.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but our constition gives US citizens the right to purchase and bear arms.  Where does it say that an alien, not a US citizen, but living here legally also has that right?  

IMHO, for whatever that is worth, Cho should never had the right or opportunity to legally purchase a firearm in this country.  Sure, he could have bought off the street, but he didn't.  He bought his Glock 9 legally.  How many students and teachers were killed by that Glock 9 weapon.  Had he not been allowed to purchase legally, perhaps it would have taken him a while longer to obtain this weapon off the street.  But how many innocent lives might also  have been saved because of this delay?

Nobody will ever be able to take away our rights to own a weapon to defend ourselves, to hunt, or just because we want one.  The constitution says this is our right.

However, why is this constitutional right, granted to supposedly US citizens, given to every Tom, Dick and Harry who comes to this country, legally with visas and green cards?  

Sandy
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by JenniferD on Apr 19th, 2007, 5:49pm

on 04/19/07 at 14:53:59, Mac_Muz wrote:
JenniferD,

I don't know what that means, but if it is giving up Liberty and giving up the Right to bear arms, currently the polls are about 60/40 in favor of being armed.

Unfortunately being armed is the only way for being safe, and having liberty.

These events we are faced with have been brought to us by the anti gun people who want to just get along no matter the price.


Sorry, but I'm not sure how you got anti-gun legislation out of Hannah's words or how the VT events were caused by anti-gun people.

You yourself are responcible for you and yours, make no mistake. No one else will do this task for you.[/quote]

That, I believe, is exactly Hannah's point: that we ARE responsible, but not only for ourselves and our own, but we are also responsible for making changes in our communities and in a broader scope, in our world.

I AM very proud of my daughter, for seeing that it IS up to us to say "enough" of the bullshit that we just turn a blind eye to. Even on a small scale, each and every one of us CAN make a difference in social changes.......and I am NOT a bleeding heart liberal yappin rhetoric and trying to pump sunshine up everyone's a$$.  

Maybe Han has the same tendencies as her mom by being Pollyanna-ish and wanting to make a difference in the world, but at least I set an example to both my kids by actually DOING things to make a difference. And for them to follow suit, again I must say that I am quite proud of the good things they do in the world around them.

I truly feel for you Mac and I am sorry for your loss. My family too was affected by a horrible murder just 1 year ago. Am I for banning all blunt force objects because of it? No. I AM for harsher sentencing, much the same as you probably are.

Sandy, I agree with you wholeheartedly:  it IS up to us to make informed decisions; again, that is Hannah's point. And I stand with you and Han, making apathy a thing of the past.

Love to you all,
Jen
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Callico on Apr 19th, 2007, 6:16pm
Apathy is the problem, and I think someone should do something about it soon. :P

Good piece by Hannah.  Give a big hug and a thank you for thinking.  It will be up to her generation to take up the slack as ours grows older.  I wish all would take the time to THINK as they grow up and not just react or emote as so many do.

Jerry

BTW, the resident aliens have constitutional rights because the same ones decided that that decided our prisoners down in Guantanimo have US constitutional rights.  "That is a truck load of male bovine fecal matter IMHO.
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by ahhpoop on Apr 21st, 2007, 2:37pm

on 04/19/07 at 14:53:59, Mac_Muz wrote:
JenniferD,

I don't know what that means, but if it is giving up Liberty and giving up the Right to bear arms, currently the polls are about 60/40 in favor of being armed.

Unfortunately being armed is the only way for being safe, and having liberty.

These events we are faced with have been brought to us by the anti gun people who want to just get along no matter the price.

My family suffered murder by knife Easter 99, of 2 elderly people, one a female laywer working past retirement, and her husband a 30 year military disarmed by the state, who also worked Kodak another 30 years as classifed.

The crimonal had been shot in the ankel the day before for stealing knives and the bleeding hearts released him.

Later we found for years he had torched little animals and pets, and became bolder and bolder each time being socialy up graded.

You yourself are responcible for you and yours, make no mistake. No one else will do this task for you.


oh god, where do i even start here...

#1. this post had nothing to do with gun legislation; that is a seperate isssue intirely. it had everything to do with the nessisity of changing the way we as people view the world around us, and the way we treat ourselves and each other.

#2. the fact that you used the tragedy your family walked through as your example proves the original point. guns dont kill people, people kill people. and that's the issue at hand. if cho had no access to a gun, he could just as easily made a bomb, grabbed a knife, swung a bat.  he simply picked up a gun. though yes, he should not have had access to it, there should have been a more thorough background check, the fact remains: nothing will change until we stand up and stop allowing oursleves to feel hate, to give hate, and to particpate in the worst hate of all -to ignore the suffering of others. to change radically the way people think is to change the desire to hurt one another. and that's a beautiful change.

#3. "These events we are faced with have been brought to us by the anti gun people who want to just get along no matter the price."
[smiley=eek5.gif]
so anti-gun legislators aching for peace caused the tragedy at tech?
ladies and gentlemen, i smell a genius in our midst.

#4"You yourself are responcible for you and yours, make no mistake. No one else will do this task for you."

hmm, let's see. "you and yours" could be defined as "you, your family and friends", i.e., "the people you love."  ok. i love my family and friends. my family (let's use my mom for example) loves more family, family i've never met, and she loves her friends, whom i've also never met. she loves the people on this board. the people on this board know and love their family and friends. so we're all connected.
i AM responsible for, and i DO love, "me and mine". but "me and mine" just so happens to go beyond people i've spoken to, people i'm related to, people i know, because i'm intellegent enough to know that man cohabits this earth with other men, and in order to prosper, we cannot ignore the suffering of others.

if we were only responsible for ourselves and our immediate relations, as you so suggest, than none of us should give a crap about your dead relatives. but that's not the way the world should be, that's not the way the world CAN be. we DO care. i mourn next to you, beloved, and i've never spoken to you, i wouldnt reconigze your face. but i feel sorrow for "you and yours", because in reality, it's the same as "me and mine." realizing this is the first step. to love is the next.

by the way, this is hannah.
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by JenniferD on Apr 21st, 2007, 2:48pm
ahem,  child o mine........  while I do love your passion, I am going to GENTLY tell you to mind your tone.

I love ya, you know that, but I won't be able to keep braggin on ya iffen ya come on with a pissy attitude and ya SURE as hell won't make too many friends either.  :-/

yo mamma
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by LeLimey on Apr 21st, 2007, 2:55pm
Pleased to meet you Hannah, your mom is one of the loveliest people I know and you should be as proud of her as she is of you.

That was a very moving post and I for one am glad I had the chance to read it.

Looking forward to getting to know you better
Helen x
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Jonny on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:07pm
:-X
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by artonio7 on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:12pm
Hello Hannah,

In as much as I live a civilized life, am opposed to unnecessary violence, try to be a good sport, help others and make these choices daily... I guess I'm already part of the revolution. I would venture to guess that most of us on this site are part of that revolution.

Maybe the trick is to bring it a step further. Maybe it's not enough. Random acts of senseless kindness is not a new concept. I guess it's always easy to be nice when things are going well for us... I strive to achieve being nice in the face of duress and stress. I guess it's the ideal that a civilized society aspires too.

At any rate keep fighting the "Good fight" and nice to meet you. Now... post more often and show us some of your artwork.

with warm regards,

Tony
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Jackie on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:18pm
Hi Hannah    [smiley=wave.gif]
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Melissa on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:27pm
Hannah, nice response. ;;D
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by ahhpoop on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:44pm

on 04/21/07 at 14:48:33, JenniferD wrote:
ahem,  child o mine........  while I do love your passion, I am going to GENTLY tell you to mind your tone.

I love ya, you know that, but I won't be able to keep braggin on ya iffen ya come on with a pissy attitude and ya SURE as hell won't make too many friends either.  :-/

yo mamma


i had a "tone"? i know not of what you speak, mother dear. 8)

and i wasn't being pissy. granted, i have to pee really bad, but i was just making my point.
i probobly should pee  though.........

oh, yeah. hi, everybody.
*high fives the room*
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Charlie on Apr 21st, 2007, 5:08pm
Yeah; it is a good post. Good for you.

TV and communication is what I've come down to as why so much apathy and violence. People don't grow up. They think the real world should be like what they see on the tube. It ain't and when they find it out, sometimes they go nuts. If you're lucky, life can be a helluva lot more fun than tv. Like Howard Beal said: "TV is a goddamn amusement park.....it's you people that are real...."

I need investors. We need a grownup news network. No greedy tv preachers nor Hollywood types allowed. No Anna Nicole nor 27/7 bloodbath stories unless necessary to keep us alive. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/tv horror.gif
Might make for some interesting advertisers.

Charlie  http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/remote.gif
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by andrewjb on Apr 21st, 2007, 6:39pm
honesty is the best policy. andrew. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-5Ld6Rl4tQ&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by JenniferD on Apr 21st, 2007, 6:54pm

on 04/21/07 at 15:07:27, Jonny wrote:
:-X



And this is WHY I love you Jonny.  Thank you    ;)
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Jonny on Apr 21st, 2007, 6:57pm

on 04/21/07 at 18:54:59, JenniferD wrote:
And this is WHY I love you Jonny.  Thank you    ;)


Dont love me too much  ;)
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by JenniferD on Apr 21st, 2007, 7:07pm

on 04/21/07 at 18:57:52, Jonny wrote:
Dont love me too much  ;)



oh I won't. You'd never recover   ;)
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Mac_Muz on Apr 21st, 2007, 8:03pm
Hi Hanna, i don't understand metaphor well. For all my life I never had Peace, and I mean ALL my life.

So I didn't understand your words, I read them after your mother replied to me and still couldn't understand your words.

Since then the Nor Easter kept me a little busy bailing the house.

And tonight I read your words 12 times and still couldn't understand you words.

I had my wife read it, and she told me what you meant.

Not every one can in life always be so enlightened. Some people see only a certain reality, and mine hasn't been filled with seeds with power to bloom.

i can still dream huh? mac
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Melissa on Apr 21st, 2007, 9:15pm
Hey Mac...

[smiley=hug.gif]

;)mel
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Mac_Muz on Apr 21st, 2007, 9:34pm

on 04/21/07 at 21:15:35, Melissa wrote:
Hey Mac...

[smiley=hug.gif]

;)mel



Is this a quiz on history? Hey who can tell these days about anything... hmmm 3 women the word Revolution...
naw... can't be...

Is the answer One if by Land 2 if by Sea?  ;;D

Please excuse me while I duck....... [smiley=bag.gif]
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by George_J on Apr 21st, 2007, 9:39pm
[smiley=wave.gif] Hannah,

Nice to meet you.

Best wishes,

George
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by BB on Apr 22nd, 2007, 3:39am

OK, so its time for the positive revolution to begin.

What does it mean in practicality that we should do?

What specific, practical actions that I can start taking right now?

Talk is easy, only actions count.

Someone tells me?


Annette
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by artonio7 on Apr 22nd, 2007, 4:47am

on 04/22/07 at 03:39:53, BB wrote:
OK, so its time for the positive revolution to begin.

What does it mean in practicality that we should do?

What specific, practical actions that I can start taking right now?

Talk is easy, only actions count.

Someone tells me?


Annette


Hmmmmm. The bible would have us believe that we give everything we own to the poor, turn the other cheek, forgive seventy times seven, love your neighbor as yourself, and honor the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind placing no-one or nothing else before God.

Some faiths live under the belief that angels roam the earth in disguise, they could be anyone, from a homeless person to a mother-in-law. Their purpose is to test us and how we treat them is the gauge by which we shall be judged.

...others believe that it's okay not to believe in anything unless it can be proven or refuted by science.

Others believe... I live to prosper, I live to acquire. I want it now and to hell with the rest... "Hallelujah". "Believe in my way or burn in hell baby!"

....err.... or was that a rhetorical question?   [smiley=huh.gif]

at any rate.... do it well.

with warm regards,
Tony
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by ClusterChuck on Apr 22nd, 2007, 5:27am
Has Tony been snorting the incense again?   [smiley=crackup.gif]

Chuck
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by artonio7 on Apr 22nd, 2007, 5:34am

on 04/22/07 at 05:27:57, ClusterChuck wrote:
Has Tony been snorting the incense again?   [smiley=crackup.gif]

Chuck


One would hope.  ;;D

with warm regards,
Tony
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Melissa on Apr 22nd, 2007, 6:39am
Annette, I didn't know there had to be a manual for being kind and loving to others?

8)
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by BB on Apr 22nd, 2007, 7:26am

on 04/22/07 at 06:39:26, Melissa wrote:
Annette, I didn't know there had to be a manual for being kind and loving to others?

8)



Maybe we should ! Maybe you can tell me how I can be kind and loving to this person called Cho?

If I was a female in his class and I was loving to him, I might become a subject of his obsession and he might stalk me ? Then if and when I became scared of him and tried to keep the distance he might decide to shoot me ?

If I was instead kind to him and tried to get him rehabilitated by contacting the responsible authority he might decide also to shoot me because that would not be what he wanted?

This is exactly what has happened to people who was in contact with Cho.

You tell me how else people should have done ?

Annette
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by john_d on Apr 22nd, 2007, 8:45am
I don't think being kind and loving to Cho specifically would have changed his behavior.  He was mentally ill, paranoid among other things, and it sounds like he was that way since he was a little kid.  He could have diagnosed properly and treated early on, but that would have required someone in his family to both want to and to have the resources available and be aware of those resources.  It would have been nice if the system would have flagged him and he had not been sold a glock and hollow points.  

I can tell you what I believe, that like everything else violence is a cycle, and not just a small cycle like in an abusive family but a large cycle that permeates entire societys and even the world.  I believe the cycle will only end when the violence does.  But violence involves more than the non-sanctioned and the illegal violence.  There is the war, there is the death penalty, there are legal outlets for American violence.  Regardless of whether you approve or disapprove of these things, they are violence.  I believe that right now our society are in an escalated cycle of violence and to begin to end it we need to denounce violence completely.    But I think we may love it and rely on it too much to do that, and frankly if we stopped right now we would get suckerpunched.  Being stuck really means being stuck sometimes, that's why revolutions usually happen when people are left with no options and cycles usually either peter out very slowly or end with a bang.
   
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Mac_Muz on Apr 22nd, 2007, 9:42am
Ending abuse might be nice on any and all levels.

Considering mankind isn't better than all other life forms might be nice.

Not asking for Govt controll on every single matter would be better.

Taking responcible action for what you do, and collectivley what we do, might be nice.

Being able to admit error, and appologize with out our danity toes feeling ever so too crunched.

Standing up for those weaker, and caring about those in need.

This country needs to look in more than it does, and still look out.  Edwards was here in NH USA and telling us the world needs a financial relief, while at the same time ignoring the fact that in every other state besides NH there are many poor.

Now some poor just might have something else to offer if they were not forced to simply survive. Some of them may even be more creative over those with lives filled with luxury.

So now my semi un-related blather:

One night my wife woke with severe cramps, and we lived in the rural center of the Ossipee Ring Dike.

It was 6 miles to a paved road East, and the hospital from there at the pavement was another 45 miles one way.

At well over 100 MPH I rushed her to Laconia, almost hoping the cops would try to stop me and so either take her or escort me because there was no way I wasn't going to be movin'.

We got to the hospital and testing began, and a few hours later my wife had been drugged and was feeling better. No testing discovered anything, which was too bad, because she had seen doctors many times before. but this time it was worse.

We were told we could go, and she should have bed rest. As we were leaving someone called her once again, and we both started back, where I was told to wait elsewhere.

My wife was interviewed alone with out me.

Walking out after that event, I asked what this was over and my wife made a hand sign to hush.

That peeked my curiosity. Once in the car she told me that a she had been taken back in to be asked if I had beaten her and did I do it often.

I was a wee bit miffed at hearing that you can bank on it!

So the ending of the tale is that a better doctor than the rest, discovered the problem on an ordinary physical, and my wife had ovarian cycsts. Since the hysterectomy she has been filled with energy, and much more life.

However being male I suppose I am still the social threat I have always been, for the fact that I am male.

With such Govt thinking, I have no idea where society at large will go...
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by catlind on Apr 22nd, 2007, 10:21am

on 04/19/07 at 14:53:59, Mac_Muz wrote:
You yourself are responcible for you and yours, make no mistake. No one else will do this task for you.


I am not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but what do you do when one of the possible Cho's IS yours?

Cat
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by DonnaHar on Apr 22nd, 2007, 11:02am
What do you mean, Cat?  After all medical avenues have been tried?
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Melissa on Apr 22nd, 2007, 11:52am

on 04/22/07 at 07:26:55, BB wrote:
Maybe we should ! Maybe you can tell me how I can be kind and loving to this person called Cho?

If I was a female in his class and I was loving to him, I might become a subject of his obsession and he might stalk me ? Then if and when I became scared of him and tried to keep the distance he might decide to shoot me ?

If I was instead kind to him and tried to get him rehabilitated by contacting the responsible authority he might decide also to shoot me because that would not be what he wanted?

This is exactly what has happened to people who was in contact with Cho.

You tell me how else people should have done ?

Annette

IMHO, it's not that loving Cho would have made him stop, as he had mental problems.  BUT, maybe if someone cared enough to intervene and have him evaluated further, it would not have happened.  The thing is, we find it taboo and rude to interject ourselves into others lives for fear of rejection and alienation, and yet, as the saying goes, "Better to have love and lost, than never to have loved at all."  Just because Cho was beyond our reach doesn't mean he wasn't worth the effort to even try.

Every single one of us is worth loving and to be loved and cared about.  Even if society deems it wrong to kill others.  Personally, I don't like killing, I much more prefer to live as happily as possible and give what I can of myself to those around me.  Regardless of their past or what they have done.  Cho is dead, there is obviously nothing I can do now, nor can anyone else.  Whatever his reasons were, no matter how skewed they may have been, were his own and to try and answer it for him is futile.  This is life, some people do these things.

Just like I was telling my husband the other day, it's so funny how so many Americans and people across the world think they live in a Free country.  There is no such thing as freedom unless you never in your life ever have to answer to anyone else.  Humans have been controlling other humans since the beginning of time, it's not likely to end soon, but I made myself a promise to be as good, kind and caring of a person as well as bring my children up in a positive manner the best I can.  As for the rest, they are still responsible for their actions, but at least I tried.

Sorry for the tanget, it is so hard for me lately to explain my view to others.  It's like trying to explain Tao, there just are no words for it. :-/

hugs,
mel
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by JenniferD on Apr 22nd, 2007, 11:58am

on 04/22/07 at 11:52:26, Melissa wrote:
Sorry for the tanget, it is so hard for me lately to explain my view to others.  It's like trying to explain Tao, there just are no words for it. :-/

hugs,
mel



I think you explained it beautifully.  
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Melissa on Apr 22nd, 2007, 11:59am
BTW, if one would need a manual on how to be kind and loving, don't you think that they would never genuinely be that way innately?? [smiley=huh.gif]  

What an odd statement...
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Melissa on Apr 22nd, 2007, 12:01pm

on 04/22/07 at 11:58:22, JenniferD wrote:
I think you explained it beautifully.  

Thank you Jen. :)
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Mac_Muz on Apr 22nd, 2007, 1:50pm

on 04/22/07 at 11:02:11, DonnaHar wrote:
What do you mean, Cat?  After all medical avenues have been tried?


CAT I doubled up, but am not bright enough to quote two individual posts, so this is also my reply to you..


...................................................................................

I am assuming then in this case you have an identified medical situation where someone has been determined to be dangerous to themself, and also dangerous to others. That this was diagnoised by the best of the best and so merits legal action as well as medical action.

Incidently the killer in my tale of woe was exactly this way. And even after being shot, for stealing knives was released by the system who in fact had him locked up.

There were years of history, reports of torchering all kinds of small animals and wildlife. Many kinds of drugs were used to try to alter the behavior. This individual walked 70 miles to an airport, and some how paid for a flight to the Soviet Union where he married a women with 3 kids and in a month or so flew back. That was discovered my mail with this women asking us if we knew what happened to the guy, but all we knew was he committed sucide before he could be caught.

We don't even know why he killed... Perhaps he had thw wrong house, or perhaps he just needed to kill...

So I have no answer for the question, but who ever was supposed to be in charge of this killer, has lost any controll they ever had.

In this situation the state must be the one in control at this point where medical report after medical report are all history... No one family should be allowed by law to make a frail promise of "Oh I will make sure this wacho child on mine takes his meds."

I mean wild and true wacko's who no one can contain and keep from violent ways, and must be under guarded supervision 120% of the time 29 hours a day and every day.....

They exisit and I have proof..
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Lobster on Apr 22nd, 2007, 2:39pm
Nice post, in a perfect world.
In my world we have this one little problem... there are homicidal maniacs living among us.

Part of the reason these mental defectives are outcasts is that you & I and everyone else instinctively know to avoid these people.

The 'lets all stop being nasty to each other' theme is interesting.  Lets apply it:

- With Cho...  It sounds more like he wanted to go ball-deep on a few girls who thought some guy showing up at their dorm room introducing himself as 'Question Mark' was not a good choice to have sex with.  You are not suggesting that you would even... nah.

- Gacy... befriend him and next thing you know you are drugged, raped, then dead in his crawlspace.

- Dahmer... give this guy a hug, then find out what being raped and eaten is all about.

Sorry Hannah... being cool to everyone will never extend to social deviants.  That little bell in our head that says 'hmmm... lets not have a beer with this dickhead' is our best survival tool.  
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by ahhpoop on Apr 22nd, 2007, 3:53pm

on 04/22/07 at 14:39:47, Lobster wrote:
Nice post, in a perfect world.
In my world we have this one little problem... there are homicidal maniacs living among us.

Part of the reason these mental defectives are outcasts is that you & I and everyone else instinctively know to avoid these people.

The 'lets all stop being nasty to each other' theme is interesting.  Lets apply it:

- With Cho...  It sounds more like he wanted to go ball-deep on a few girls who thought some guy showing up at their dorm room introducing himself as 'Question Mark' was not a good choice to have sex with.  You are not suggesting that you would even... nah.

- Gacy... befriend him and next thing you know you are drugged, raped, then dead in his crawlspace.

- Dahmer... give this guy a hug, then find out what being raped and eaten is all about.

Sorry Hannah... being cool to everyone will never extend to social deviants.  That little bell in our head that says 'hmmm... lets not have a beer with this dickhead' is our best survival tool.  


i'd rather be killed once by a Dahmer wannabe because i was kind and treated him with respect, than to walk around safe my whole life because i pushed all "odd" people away from me and treated them like shit. i think that's a chance i'm willing to take. chances are that most of the not-so-normal people i will encounter in my life are just that, not-so-normal. yeah, some people are dangerous, some people are perverts, some are nuts. but not everybody is. you can't assume you know what's behind thier eyes.

granted, i do realize that every person -especially girls- have this bell in thier head that goes off when something about a person is off, and i mean OFF.  i'm not naieve, i know that people are whack-jobs sometimes. there's this dude that pretty much stalks me, and my bell goes DINGDINGDINGDING every time he comes into where i work. so, what do i do when he's in there? i keep conversation superficial but polite. i never disrepect him, but i certainly ain't going bowling with him, either.

there's a differance between keeping yourself safe, when you KNOW something's wrong, and showing blatant disrespect for another human being.

besides, we're all going to die someday. me? i might as well do it trying to be nice to somebody.
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by BB on Apr 22nd, 2007, 6:05pm

on 04/22/07 at 11:59:19, Melissa wrote:
BTW, if one would need a manual on how to be kind and loving, don't you think that they would never genuinely be that way innately?? [smiley=huh.gif]  

What an odd statement...



It would not be such an odd statement if you are the one sitting in an assesment office facing someone like Cho, and having the responsibility to him and to others as to what actions you are going to take. Its very easy when you are miles away, behind a computer making comments and having no real responsibility or liability.

In Australia, one needs to have a medical clearance for mental health prior to applying for a license to hold a weapon, namely a gun. I have had the responsibility many times to make the decision to say yes or no, to report the person to the police or not, to refer them to psychiatric rehabilitation or not. I do have a manual as to what and how to draw a line and where to guide me. I can not be wishy washy here and make a decision on my emotional feelings alone where many lives are in my hands.

Say if someone like Cho was sitting in my office and looking at his history I could see that he was maybe diagnosed as autistic as a child but nothing confirmed it, that he was a loner and had problems with social interaction, that he had written violent and sexual plays in English class, that he had stalked girls and harrassed people, that he appeared "disturbed" to me ... but nothing concrete to say that he will or will not become a murderer, yet my bell is going dingdingding that there is something really scary about this person in front of me here, what should I do?

In an ideal world, I would try to help him so I sit there and talk to him for hours to first gain his confidence, then I would persuade him to go see a psychiatrist to confirm the diagnosis of autism and to get treatment for it, I may offer to accompany him there as a supportive friend. I would risk being sued for breaching patients confidentiality by contacting his parents and informing them of my concerns. I would risk being sued for professional misconduct by contacting his college and teachers. Then I would tell him that I care so much so that he could have my address and phone number and that he could contact me anytime in case he wants to talk. Then I would give him the license to buy gun so that I wont hurt his already fragile feelings and his fear of rejection?

In the real world, according to the manual, I would refer him to have formal psychiatric evaluation , I would ask him for the permission to advice his parents of my concerns and to send a report to the college, I would recommend counselling to which it would be his choice to attend or not but I would not grant him the right to buy a gun until he has satisfied all the requirements. Then depending on his conduct and behaviour afterwards that I would decide whether to commit him to a psychiatric hospital or contacting the police.

What do you think would be the better outcome of the two approaches? Which way would you have chosen or would you have done something else completely different?

Looking at a different responsibility, if you are the policeman facing him in the corridor as he is weilding his guns, how would you be kind and loving to him? By not shooting him down and trying to talk him to surrender without killing anymore people? Yes, in an ideal world, that would be nice. However, according to the existing crisis manual, the policeman will just as quickly as possible shoot him down so that he cant kill anyone else. Not kind, not loving, but effective.

Thats what laws are : manuals on how to be kind and loving BUT still responsible.

This is how I see it as someone who has been IN these situations and not just sitting safely behind a computer expressing personal views, with no real impact on the situation.

Annette
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by BB on Apr 22nd, 2007, 6:14pm

on 04/22/07 at 15:53:36, ahhpoop wrote:
i'd rather be killed once by a Dahmer wannabe because i was kind and treated him with respect, than to walk around safe my whole life because i pushed all "odd" people away from me and treated them like shit. i think that's a chance i'm willing to take.



Hannah, I think you are a wonderfully caring person and I adore you for that. But somehow I think your mother would rather you NOT take that chance.

I dont think any mother would want her daughter to lose her life just so that she doesnt hurt the feeling of a Dahmer wannabe.

Annette
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by Brewcrew on Apr 22nd, 2007, 10:04pm

on 04/22/07 at 15:53:36, ahhpoop wrote:
i'd rather be killed once by a Dahmer wannabe because i was kind and treated him with respect, than to walk around safe my whole life because i pushed all "odd" people away from me and treated them like shit.

Wait until you have a dependent or two. Your perspective changes a bit.

Unless you're worth more dead than alive (i.e., insurance) and you have no desire to see your kids turn into adults.

Your attitude is admirable, however sometimes practicality injects itself.
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Apr 22nd, 2007, 11:18pm

on 04/22/07 at 18:05:09, BB wrote:
Say if someone like Cho was sitting in my office and looking at his history...........


We don't have those kind of rules here in the USA.  We have background checks, but they are not detailed enough to mention papers written in english class and stuff like that.  It mainly has convictions, and also sometimes lists charges brought against a person.  It certainly does not have information regarding an old teacher that said he is a disturbed kid, or old girlfriends that think he is a weirdo, or roomates who think it's weird that they never talk.

I dont even know the logistics of how a report with all that info would be created.
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by BB on Apr 23rd, 2007, 12:53am

In Australia, when someone comes to my office asking for a medical clearance to apply for a firearm license, usually as a security guard, then I have the responsibility to find out as much as possible. I need to ask the person to sign a consent form so that I could access medical history, including hospital record and work and/or school records. I then also have the right then to contact family and friends if I think its necessary. The applicant also has to provide legal character references, from teachers if they are studying, from employers if they are working or from other notary public persons. I can contact these people for further information if I feel the need.

Once I have all the information I need, I then do a full physical check up and a basic psych evaluation. Then I will write my recommendation and any further requirements and inform the person that he/she will need to fulfil them before I would say yes or no, from a medical point of view. At any point, if I think the person is at risk or can be a risk to others, I have the right and responsibility to refer to the appropriate authorities.

Afterwards, my report will be forwarded to the Police Department who will run a criminal check on the applicant.

Once the gun is purchased, the serial number will be registered to the persons name. The file with all the above information stays with the Police.

Its a very doable thing. Sometimes I wish that as a GP I dont get given that much responsibility but then GP is the best person to do it. I know most of my patients very very well from their medical history to their family situation to their employment. Most of them I know for many years and really get to know who they are as a person. So I guess from that perspective, GP is a good place to start with.

What do you think of this system?

Annette
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Apr 23rd, 2007, 1:06am
Wow, we dont have anything like that sort of background check here.  As a matter of fact, Freedom of Information act and HIPPA laws would make it illegal for medical professionals to discuss a patient with you.....especially mental health.

We also have some laws that prevent mental illness facts from being put in a person's medical history.  So, if a shrink said that you are a threat to yourself and to others, this information can not be shared with other professionals or law enforcement due to privacy laws.  It's kind of cooky if you ask me.
Title: Re: Let the revolution begin
Post by BB on Apr 23rd, 2007, 1:20am

Thats why I need the applicant to sign the consent form for me to access his information. Once he or she signs it, I have all the right to dig them up.

I dont have the right to discuss a patient 's information with another person without that patients consent but if the patient had been referred to me by another medical practitioner that means I then have the legal right to do so.

It would be silly not to include someones mental illness fact into their medical history! Mental illnesses ARE medical conditions, no?

Here if any doctor, not just psychiatrists, can inform the Police or have a patient legally commit to a mental health institute, if they believe the person is at risk to self or others. Actually the doctors are expected to do so by laws. If they dont and the patient kills themselves and someone else, the doctors would be held responsible.


Annette


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