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Title: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 6:58pm http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Slideshows/_production/ss_070418_NBC_VATech/ss_070418_vatech_tease2.300w.jpg http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/ |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 18th, 2007, 7:37pm This story on that site had some info I was wondering about. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18175525/ |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 7:48pm "Those behaviors fit the "profile" of a school shooting. That's not a profile of a certain type of student — school shooters have been of many ethnicities, family backgrounds and academic standing. But experts say there is a pattern of actions that typically precede an attack." I dont think they are talking about a gun, do you? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:01pm I forgot to answer the question. Quote:
No, he created some purpose to kill before he got the guns. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Ree on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:20pm I'm numb at this point... My kids have been getting shot at for so long now that I have to say I am amune to this type of thing. It should not have happened. After 911 things like this are not supposed to happen. But here we are the rosey glassed Americans that trust everyone. Even the school I work in is unsafe everyday. Anyone can walk right through the front door. Our kids aren't safe... Mine haven't been for a long time... but now everyone feels it. Welcome to my world. Ree |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:40pm A little reallity for you! http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1431 If it was so easy for this VT punk to buy these guns with a green card, shouldnt we arm all the students? How is it that you can buy a gun without a back ground check when you have a green card? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:41pm It's the malfunctioned individual, he had the intention, and took advantage of the means. There were tons of signs that this was a fugged up guy. How about the thought that video games, like first person shooters prepare people or some how program them? I keep hearing how these games train people on how to execute these death missions. I played the Doom, Duke Nukem, Halo and a host of others. Do these games screw with someones head so bad that they have lost tha ability between fantasy and reality? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by sldrswyfe on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:42pm First...it scares the hell out of me. Second...what has happened to this "child"??? Why would a young boy feel such rage and conviction? I felt sadness watching him..wondering what happened that caused him to be so disturbed and angry. I very well may be wrong, but it seems he endured alot of very deep pain. Nevertheless, he's dangerous...pain or no pain. The reuslt of his pain has destroyed lives... |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:47pm on 04/18/07 at 20:41:56, JeffB wrote:
Not me, you? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:49pm Haven't gone postal yet. [smiley=biggrin.gif] |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:49pm on 04/18/07 at 20:42:39, sldrswyfe wrote:
He was a man! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Maffumatt on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:51pm He wasn't a man. Far from it. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:53pm The guy was bitching about privilaged kids! His sister went to Princeton, he was at Virginia Tech, what the hell does he have to bitch about? He was a fucked in the head individual who showed signs for at least a couple of years. My question is, why was he still allowed at that university?? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:54pm He was not a child or a boy is what I meant. Why did he get guns with no back ground check with a GREEN CARD!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:56pm Ummm... he was in an educational facility.... surrounded by people with a higher than average IQ..... One professor noted that he was twisted... even threatened to quitting her job if he remained her student. What were the other 28,000 people doing? Surely she wasn't the only person who noticed he was odd. Nope... the gun doesn't always kill people... indifference often does though. with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Paul98 on Apr 18th, 2007, 8:59pm The guy was mentally unbalanced. He had been placed in a mental hospital (not volintary) and lied on the gun application about it. Again, why didn't ANY of the students defend themselves? If I knew I was going to be shot it would be done atempting to get the sob not cowering waiting for the bullet. -P. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:01pm on 04/18/07 at 20:40:08, Jonny wrote:
Because that is the law. Each state has their own laws, I had to do a background check, wait 7 days and take 2 classes just to get my CWP. In Virginia, they dont really have any rules, except you can not purchase more than 81 guns at 1 time. Do you think we should make new federal rules concerning getting guns? I don't know if making new rules can solve anything at this point......except make law abiding citizens have to wait longer to purchase them legally. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:03pm on 04/18/07 at 20:56:40, artonio7 wrote:
Not sure if you need a higher than average I.Q. to go to or teach at a university. ;) |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:04pm on 04/18/07 at 21:01:03, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
Well, if they did the BG check they would have seen the stalking reports and the detention in the mental facilaty, no? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:05pm No. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:06pm Then what the hell is a background check good for in this case, nothing? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:09pm yes |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:09pm ALL states should have the fucking back ground check!! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:11pm Why?... if it's been established time and again in this thread... that criminals will find a way to get guns. Why the fuck bother? Instead shouldn't it be made MANDATORY that everyone past the age of 12 own a gun? After all... everyone will then be armed... oh yeah... make them all full automatic with at least 120 round clip. with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by deltadarlin on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:18pm http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting This kid was sick in every sense of the word. Did he know right from wrong? Probably, but imho, something had pushed him beyond that point of no return. Not justifyng what Cho did, but I can almost guarantee you that if somebody digs deep enough, you're going to find a kid that long had problems, most likely going back to high school. According to what I found, they would have done a background check on Cho, but they wouldn't have found anything, because he had no prior convictions. There is no waiting period in VA. JeffB To answer you question. What do you think the university should have done? He hadn't overtly threatened anyone. Try and kick a student out if that student isn't an iminent threat to himself or someone else and you'll find yourself in the middle of a lawsuit. And I would guarantee you that his parents had worked themselves to the bone to assure that their kids had the best education they could provide. Hazarding a guess, I would possibly say that both were on scholarship. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:18pm What is established in this thread is nothing more than opinion. Who held the opinion that this this guy was fit to be where he was at? There were enough opinions that this guy was a threat to himself and to others, yet he remained at VT. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:18pm on 04/18/07 at 21:11:16, artonio7 wrote:
Well, Tony, this puke bought two guns that killed 32 people with only a GREEN CARD and NO BACK GROUND CHECK.....Get it? And it was legal! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:20pm on 04/18/07 at 21:18:21, JeffB wrote:
An example of Blatant indifference. It's a flaw in our society. I guess this is a result. Now fix it. with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:23pm IMO, the world or more distinctley, America has become too PC in ways we have to treat people. He should have been put into a hospital long ago. and yes, a background check would have come up with a hit on something. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:23pm on 04/18/07 at 21:18:58, Jonny wrote:
Jonny what difference does it make how he obtained the guns? It's been stated time and again that criminals or the insane will get a gun however they can. So... background check or not... he could have just circumvented the entire process of applying and just bought from an underground source... Yes I get it... our system is flawed... so what are YOU going to do about it? with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:25pm on 04/18/07 at 21:20:23, artonio7 wrote:
How? How can we fix it? How can we get guns permanently out of the hands of anyone who would ever use a gun in an offensive manner? Channel 2 news gets guns on airplanes just to make a point. If we cant even keep guns off of airplanes, how can we keep them away from everywhere else? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:28pm on 04/18/07 at 21:25:31, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
In Jonnys world no green card would ever get a gun, it wont cure shit , but it will slow it. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:28pm So, there is a guy or maybe a few guys who find pleasure in killing people by crushing victims skulls with pineapples. I guess we'll have to get rid of all pineapples, except for chefs and other food service people? No? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:28pm on 04/18/07 at 21:25:31, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
Tip the scale in the opposite direction... make it MANDATORY that every man, woman and child past the age of twelve is armed to the teeth. with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Brewcrew on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:31pm It's not possession of a gun that makes someone a criminal. It's how they use the gun. If that classroom had had just one law abiding, gun carrying person in it, there would have been a whole lot less life lost. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:32pm on 04/18/07 at 21:18:05, deltadarlin wrote:
And then again, he could have made up all his reasons for thinking what he did in his own head, without them really happening. If they are real in his head then they would seem real to him, creating them bigger than life and more despiseful as time wore on. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:35pm The dude should have been in a straight jacket and not on a university. Just wish it was a student that killed the son of a bitch.! Edit to add: I'm pissed, I need to step out and smoke a thing one steps out to smoke, and shine my wrist rocket. God help the backyard carnage!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:37pm on 04/18/07 at 21:28:46, artonio7 wrote:
Thats a good point. 100 years ago there was at least 1 gun in almost every home.....and we didnt have as much crime. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Mosaicwench on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:39pm This kid was sick in every sense of the word. Did he know right from wrong? Probably, but imho, something had pushed him beyond that point of no return. Not justifyng what Cho did, but I can almost guarantee you that if somebody digs deep enough, you're going to find a kid that long had problems, most likely going back to high school. For every nut job that picks up a gun or an axe or a knife and does harm to others there are thousands who have similar problems who never even THINK to do something like this. IMHO, this is not a "we" problem, but rather a HE problem. Him and him alone. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:43pm on 04/18/07 at 21:39:32, Mosaicwench wrote:
IMHO it is a we problem.... we didn't recognize the signs... or if we did we turned our heads. with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:51pm on 04/18/07 at 21:43:45, artonio7 wrote:
Maybe so, but dont blame guns! Nite, honey :-* |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:51pm on 04/18/07 at 21:43:45, artonio7 wrote:
From the link in Delta's post: Quote:
The problem was partially recognized, not sufficiently, resulting in out-patient treatment. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Brewcrew on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:53pm on 04/18/07 at 21:43:45, artonio7 wrote:
Why didn't "we" do something about it then? I know what I would have done - I would have put a bullet in his head before a few thousand more lives had been affected. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 9:59pm on 04/18/07 at 21:53:45, Brewcrew wrote:
... or maybe invite him for a cup of coffee... his room mates stated in the years that hey knew him.. he never once had a friend visit. Classmates stated that although they sat next to him everyday... they never spoke to each other... sad. Do you think his parents may have had a clue something was not all A-OK? with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JeffB on Apr 18th, 2007, 10:06pm LMAO! Dear loner, although my head says that you need some mental help, my heart says, I would love to have tea with you in the 9am hour. I'll have my people contact your people for info. Toodles, ::) |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 18th, 2007, 10:09pm on 04/18/07 at 21:59:33, artonio7 wrote:
Have you been close to his type Tony? I have. You don't want to be. My girlfriend's kid was put away in a maximum mental lockup for eight years for a shoot-out with police. She feared for her life whenever he was around. Transferred then to medium for a few years and then, because of state cutbacks, let out. Within a little over a year's time, he was dead. Hit from 17 of 30 shots from the National Guard. Company? |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Brewcrew on Apr 18th, 2007, 10:11pm on 04/18/07 at 21:59:33, artonio7 wrote:
All irrelevant, Tony. Once his wacked out brain decides to draw a weapon on innocent beings, he has just upped the ante in my book. I can't make this clear enough: I don't care about all the problems he encountered, especially if I couldn't do anything to help solve them. Up to this point, I have no clue as to his background. His gun comes out and he becomes pure evil in an instant. Then it's my job as a caring human being to protect the innocent. I can't fix the entire world - only the parts I can control (which ain't much). |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 18th, 2007, 10:16pm on 04/18/07 at 22:06:32, JeffB wrote:
Sadly... if that were the case about 10 years ago... perhaps none of this would have happened. IMHO No-one displaying the level of instability that this man displayed would go unnoticed. Unless he developed Schizophrenia overnight. Chances are it started a long time ago. Mental illness is a horrible affliction. Why is it more acceptable to overlook someone with this affliction? For the love of god, our society drains the state institutions into the streets of major cities by giving them a bus ticket and some cash to the city of their choice. Ever walk down the streets of New York City? with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 18th, 2007, 10:32pm on 04/18/07 at 22:16:25, artonio7 wrote:
The state may be hesitant to house them due to funding*, perhaps, or would rather have them in someone else's hands with a social worker coming by seems more preferred, checking on conditions and medication regimen. But meds don't always confine the problem as adequately as hoped for those in contact with the afflicted when they are potentially dangerous to others. People do care though, she still cries. *and that could have been the reason Cho was evaluated hesitantly, only as a danger to himself and not others when he was suspected of both initially. The "danger to others" box was not checked and outpatient was granted, as previously posted above from Delta's link. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Charlie on Apr 18th, 2007, 11:12pm Not that it would have happened but decades ago you could put someone like this away for some time without a lot of paperwork. Not so today. You know; not everything is related to your crocth or what your mom did to you. Sometimes the wiring malfunctions. It just does. The videos and photos..........geeze...... You wanna buy guns? Not hard here in NYS flea markets. You could get some cool stuff from a guy that ran around with a grocery bag full of them at upstate flea markets some years ago selling what were likely stolen firearms. He had some great Colts, I remember. I used to advertise for war relics and guy pulled in my driveway with two MP-42 German machine guns and some other pretty nasty stuff. You really have to work to avoid guns here in the wilds of New York State. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by artonio7 on Apr 19th, 2007, 12:11am on 04/18/07 at 22:11:43, Brewcrew wrote:
...The man was 23 years old... and everyone who encountered him got the sense that "Something was wrong"... Would I have been one of those who shrugged my shoulders and turned away? Maybe... but it's been my experience to recognize when someone is suffering and at times try to do something... even if it's a smile or trying to engage them in conversation. Ben says that I have the uncanny ability to attract whackos... I could be at a convention of "the most stable people in the world"... and in the middle of a crowd of a thousand... the only nut job there would find me. Not to make light of this... but surely someone who was in authority and in his life along the way may have made a difference. Quote:
...likewise. Quote:
...every pebble tossed into a pond creates a ripple. I often question in my life and in my encounters... what could I do to make this a better situation. I remember once while driving along... I saw a dog running down the street with his chain trailing behind him... I pulled over and called for him... as he tried to run from me... he ran straight into the intersection and was killed by a car.... Could I have saved his life by not trying???? or was he destined to die either way? with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Callico on Apr 19th, 2007, 12:25am "Well, if they did the BG check they would have seen the stalking reports and the detention in the mental facilaty, no? " Jonny, a background check only shows a conviction or a commital for mental illness. He had never even been charged with a crime as neither of the girls that complained about his stalking would sign a complaint. When he was sent for mental counseling by a state therapist the dr at the hospital said that he was not a threat to himself or to anyone else, hence he was released, and no record was given to the police due to privacy laws. The reason he could get a gun was that he was a legal resident alien and passed the background check that VA uses, which checks computer datatbases for any reports. Jerry |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Lobster on Apr 19th, 2007, 1:21am Problem #1: Green-carder should not have been allowed to purchase a firearm. Problem #2: Citizens at VT were not allowed to carry firearms to defend themselves. See? That was simple. No defense in a country where anyone can buy offense == random massacres. I moved from PA. In 10 years I never saw a bar fight, because you knew that at least 3-4 people in the bar were carrying. Now in IL, where there is no concealed carry, I see fights or near-fights at least once a month. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Woobie on Apr 19th, 2007, 2:47am This whole thing pisses me off! The blame game has begun! What ever happened to personal responsibility? He blames the whole world for his problems, and now - everyone else is blaming the the whole world too ... HE did it............. HE DID! there are a lot of other "mentally ill" people in this world who dont ever get help... and they dont go around killing people. I even heard one reporter tonight say that if one of the girls he stalked would have filed charges.. this wouldn't have happened. Now they're blaming HER??? Are you KIDDING ME?? I bet she feels horrible right now - and for a reporter on CNN to say that - OMG. Unbelievable! And - on the topic of reporters - i CANNOT believe some of the questions they ask the familys - I fukkin hate the media sometimes. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr >:( but - i love you guys! woobs :'( |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Brewcrew on Apr 19th, 2007, 7:49am on 04/19/07 at 00:11:42, artonio7 wrote:
Tony, I think the main difference in our perspectives is that you are talking about attempting to help him before he got to the snapping point. All my comments were written from the perspective of encountering him after he started his rampage. We're probably not that far apart. Quote:
And we're letting you come to Richmond? ;;D |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by ClusterChuck on Apr 19th, 2007, 8:09am on 04/19/07 at 00:11:42, artonio7 wrote:
SHIT!! I thought of us as friends ... What does that say about me?? Chuck |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by catlind on Apr 19th, 2007, 8:58am This reminds me of a very similar scenario, the Montreal Massacre - http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-398/disasters_tragedies/montreal_massacre/ Was this a copy cat of that? How long has this kid been having trouble? Did the parents even KNOW he was having trouble? How do you determine if a kid in highschool that is depressed and/or a loner and has other issues is going to be the next one to cause a senseless massacre? This strikes a chord with me in more ways than any of you could possibly know. How do we look back with 20/20 hindsight? What about the 8 year old that was banned for bringing a butter knife to school? Circular argument that results in opinions; There is no solution to be had by us that's my opinion. Parents, pay attention to your kids, and if you don't know what to do, turn to someone who does. IMO gun control does a wonderful job of controlling law abiding citizens, doesn't do much for those that would break the law to begin with. (Keeping in mind I come from a country that has very strict gun controls and still has school shootings) Cat edited to see if the link works THIS time....aRgh |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by LadyElaine1 on Apr 19th, 2007, 9:38am No Its not the gun that kills, its the person behind the gun. But whoes at fault? Its the system. ITS ALL OF OURS. Parents can't punish their children any more, teachers can't either. Some laws need to be done away with and some need to be redone. Teachers and Parents need to be in control not the kids. The way the law reads, kids have rights, but parents and teachers do not ! Yet we are responseable for the actions of our children. They can leave home at age 16 and there is not a damn thing we can do. Let them get in trouble and its our fault . The reason its our fault is we don't do enough to change the laws. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Brewcrew on Apr 19th, 2007, 10:17am Not to mention that, because of new health care privacy laws, not even his parents could look at his medical records. He's dead, and VT still can't release a lot of the stuff they have in his records lest they be in violation of the law. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Lobster on Apr 19th, 2007, 10:22am The shooter's anti-social behavior probably matched about a quarter-million goth-wannabes. Mental defectives are not rare. Homicidal-suicidal mental defectives exist. Society is simply not geared to handling every possible nut job. Mental Health is a very inexact science. If society were to err on the side of caution, we would need to institutionalize millions. By the way, as chronic pain sufferers most of us would probably be on someones 'high risk' list. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by aprilbee on Apr 19th, 2007, 10:35am This guy was WAKKO to the very core...I agree that he should not have been able to buy not only one but two guns! What's terrifying to me is that there is another guy just like Cho; a ticking time bomb that will be ignored until its too late... the gun laws won't change for a very very long time...so take advantage of the system and arm youselves! teach the next bastard a lesson! >:( |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by George_J on Apr 19th, 2007, 10:54am on 04/19/07 at 10:35:20, aprilbee wrote:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/387/story/79642.html A recent local incident, but similar in many ways. Not as many killed, but it wasn't for lack of trying. :'( George |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Mosaicwench on Apr 19th, 2007, 11:02am on 04/19/07 at 10:22:12, Lobster wrote:
Excellent point! It might interest some here to know that the general assembly of Virginia voted overwhelmingly last month to pass a law that would make it ILLEGAL for colleges to expell students with mental illnesses . . . . |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by aprilbee on Apr 19th, 2007, 11:52am on 04/19/07 at 10:54:40, George_J wrote:
Wow!! It is sickens me to think this can and probably will happen again... |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 19th, 2007, 12:01pm on 04/19/07 at 00:11:42, artonio7 wrote:
I understand completely what you say here and it is fine when confronting a mind that comprehends empathy. However, when it is you that has done the most for this person, helped them in every way, it can also be you who this person feels is responsible for their lot in life, responsible for them being locked up and their persescution, in their eyes. It may also be you who they feel has been trying to kill them and the thought of killing you is veiled from their center focus by a partition you are never sure of, which can change at a moments notice for no reason and their actions are justified to themselves. They may prefer to create their own reality and it can be without understanding. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Mac_Muz on Apr 19th, 2007, 12:04pm Jonny, Where is the link to green cards and gun law? I tried I really did, but can't figure out which link... I am on a 56k mo dumb ....be kind... I had a sales job in a gun store, as far as I know every state has NICS or Brady. I never had a buyer with a green card either, so I don't know about this one. As for the rest... My upbringing was wicked, and I arrowed one of my mothers boy friends at 7. Since then after becoming a grown man I suffered 3 attacks where just having a gun on me made the difference. bad guys don't like short odds... the 4th incident I did shoot the jerk, because the cops refused to come and I told them I would shoot before i did. When the dust settled, I was informed the guy I shot, was an x con convicted many times before, serving many years before and was currently WANTED for 6 more bench warrents, concerning drugs and violence, which didn't exacly calm my nerves since I left him alive. I don't exactly think we need to lower the age standards to 12 however. As to this little weasle punk fuck him and the horse he rode in on.. He committed a felony just singing the papers to buy, then he committed another felony grinding the serial numbers off the gun, he committed a misdomener bring the gun on campus, and then used it to committ 31 murders and woulded 20 something more all felonies one by by one. What gets me is the libral press would like to bury these details as it clearly shows their ways will not work. Those that are anti gun do not want to bear the responciblity for this and other killings done, which is blood on their hands... The cat is out of the bag on this one... |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Melissa on Apr 19th, 2007, 12:05pm on 04/18/07 at 23:12:06, Charlie wrote:
Exactly, and it could happen to any one of us. I also want to say I totally agree with Woobie and Lobsters posts. BTW, you can try and prevent this from happening again, but it's futile. They'll always find a way. Best just be good family, friends and parents and pay attention to how others feel. We've seemed to have lost that in America, the "love thy neighbor". :'( |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Paul98 on Apr 19th, 2007, 12:59pm on 04/18/07 at 23:12:06, Charlie wrote:
on 04/19/07 at 12:05:16, Melissa wrote:
Well, it DOES! Our hypothalamus is wacky ;;D -P. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by fubar on Apr 19th, 2007, 4:18pm "We" did this to ourselves. "We" bacame a nation of emasculated, passive sheep "We" pass laws to protect anyone from public scrutiny "We" pass laws to prevent law-abiding people from protecting themselves "We" allowed our educational institutions to become pathetic breeding grounds of 'liberal' thinking "We" threw our moral compass out the window "We" elect idiots "We" are experiencing the result of our apathy It is fucking sad, pathetic and revolting just my opinion |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by sldrswyfe on Apr 19th, 2007, 4:21pm What I meant is he's awfully young to feel this way...so angry...he is brilliant..absolutely. He had a very succint, well laid out plan...links, pictures..all neatly put together(???) And who is "You"...that he keeps referring to? I believe it is the name of someone..just like in the Bible as God is refererred to as "I Am"...and it probably isn't spelled y-o-u...just a thought... |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by medic1852 on Apr 19th, 2007, 4:48pm Dennis Miller (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player06.html?041807/041807_oreilly_miller&OReilly_Factor&Dennis%20Miller%20on%20Va.%20Tech%20massacre&acc&Politics&-1&News&508&&&exp). Be patient and let it load and play the comercial. Then listen to what Dennis has to say. Some makes sense to me and some dont. Just a thought. Rodger |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by burnt-toast on Apr 19th, 2007, 4:55pm I am subjected to a background check each time I purchase a firearm in PA. Jonny’s question is 100% valid - how does a green card qualify someone for gun ownership? Most green card-carrying immigrants lack full citizenship status and don’t even have backgrounds that can be checked. Combine a green card with this nut-job’s history of disturbing/criminal history and its impossible to understand how he legally purchased a firearm. There is a major flaw that needs corrected immediately. This was a planned attack by a disturbed individual with no regard to laws. His rampage went unchallenged - innocent victims obeyed a law that took away their right to choose to defend themselves against senseless violence. More gun laws and controls will only further limit the rights of law-abiding citizens. Disarmed by law - law-abiding citizens become targets. Expecting law enforcement to save the day is a proven recipe for disaster - it’s impossible to be everywhere and respond fast enough to protect individuals from lunatics. Law-abiding citizens must be permitted to protect themselves. New York City and Washington, DC with the most restrictive gun laws in the nation consistently rank at the top in violent crime. They blame this failure on gun availability in surrounding states/cities - conveniently choosing to ignore the fact that these very states/cities they claim have “loose gun laws” and “too many guns” have significantly less violent crime. It’s not the first, won’t be the last, and even where extreme gun restrictions and bans are law – it happens. Demented individuals and criminals don’t obey laws. They take advantage of being guaranteed absolute power over their victims. In the U.S. less than 10% of cargo arriving in U.S. ports is inspected and unthinkable quantities of illegal drugs and guns flow across porous borders in the hands of illegal aliens. What hypocrisy for many staunch gun-control advocates to support these national security disasters while demanding that U.S. citizen’s sacrifice rights in the name of personal and public safety. Emotional reactions to terrorists and criminals must never undermine the rights of law-abiding citizens. Elimination of individual rights and freedoms never increases the safety or freedom of law-abiding citizens. “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by JenniferD on Apr 19th, 2007, 6:05pm on 04/18/07 at 19:48:22, Jonny wrote:
I am in total agreement. I don't believe we have to give up our right to bear arms because of some lunatic. I DO believe that it should be HARDER to get weapons. I think if it had been, or even a longer waiting period and gun dealers/police having access to mental health records, then much of the senseless acts could be prevented. Jen |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Spkcks on Apr 19th, 2007, 6:13pm Rage kills with what ever weapon is at hand |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Leesa on Apr 19th, 2007, 7:04pm IMHO, Nope its the PERSON who pulls the trigger. More gun control laws will follow I'm sure. "They have my guns when they pry them out of my cold dead fingers" as my father put it! Leesa PS: you can walk right in to Wal Mart here in TN and get a Rifle without ANY checks at all!!! But we do have a 7 day waiting period for hand guns.......Go figure ::) |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 19th, 2007, 7:20pm on 04/19/07 at 00:25:23, Callico wrote:
Then I guess shit has to change, eh? I wonder if Mohamad Atta with his visa could have bought a gun! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Charlie on Apr 20th, 2007, 12:23am Quote:
No longer true for NYC. It's considered among the safer big cities now. Rudi had a lot to do with it. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Apr 20th, 2007, 1:09am on 04/19/07 at 19:20:10, Jonny wrote:
I heard on the radio today that it is specifically mentioned in the constitution that any citizen or foreign national here in the USA legally can have guns. PS, the USA has decided to take in 25,000 homeless Iraqi's we displaced. I am sure they don't hold a grudge, but they will be legally allowed to purchase guns, too. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Mac_Muz on Apr 20th, 2007, 2:28pm I just wanted you all to know next week National Security will be benefited by my wife flying to Maryland with out her gel foam pads in her shoes.... I guess the authorites don't want her to beat some poor utopian bastered to death with stinky gel foot pads.. So flying on this day will be safe... What I wonder about is IF I will be safe when she returns because her back is gonna suck and she might beat me with these same pads! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by ahhpoop on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:38pm first and foremost, i'd just like to throw it out there that i do believe iam in love with tony. hot damn, a man after my own heart. i was going to type everything he said, but he got to it first. a-effing-men. ok, now i'm ready. *steps on soapbox* i was tormented all through my middle school years and some of my high school experiance by a group of five boys. mind you, i'm a four feet tall, 100 lbs (at the time) female. still, you name it, they did it to me. i was called every name in the book, my hair was cut off, they would circle around me so i couldnt get home, they threw dog feces and rocks at me, my name was "hannah the man", because they said i was unbearably masculine. they told people around school that i was involved in beastiality with dogs. they made my life hell. HELL. i'm not going to lie to you and tell you i didnt want to see them suffer an incredibly horrific, painful death. but i never brought a gun to school. i KNOW what it feels like to be a target, but the line here is that i was mentally capable enough to decipher revenge fanasies from a well-planned massacre. cho was mentally ill, in addition to this assumption that he was targeted by bullies. granted, the path i took to deal with that abuse wasn't exactly healthy, but i never crossed that line to complete insanity. cho could probobly be defined as a sociopath. anyway, that's beside the point. everyone here is at fault, and yet, no is to blame. if the faculty had taken action when they recognized a threat, he could have been detained and perhaps treated. if the teachers thought a little about recommending counsling-or even asked him if he was "okay"- when they read his very disturbing stories and plays, then maybe cho would have had someone to reach out to. if the students he accociated with made an effort to be his friend, maybe someone could have talked him out of it. maybe his parents were abusive, and if they hadn't been, maybe he wouldn't have snapped. maybe if we didn't look the other way when we saw kids making fun of him, he wouldn't have felt so alone. maybe if the gun store owner hadn't sold him the gun, he wouldnt have had a weapon....... ....there's a thousand "maybe"s , a thousand "what if?"s, a thousnd "if only"s, a thousand fingers to point. none of those things will justify this, none of it will bring back those lost, none of it will heal a million broken hearts. the only thing we can do, and i stand by this almost zealously- is to love. i chose to love those who screwed me over royally. it was painfully hard, but damn it it's THE choice to make. we HAVE to change the way we interact with each other, the way we care about the people of this world and the way we love ourselves. "above all, love each other deeply, for love covers over a multitude of sins." -1 peter 4:8 |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:52pm on 04/21/07 at 15:38:11, ahhpoop wrote:
Do you read the newspaper or watch the news on tv? His roomates tried to make friends for a long time, but he would not have it. His teacher turned him in and he ended up in a mental hospital. Get your facts straight! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by ahhpoop on Apr 21st, 2007, 3:58pm on 04/21/07 at 15:52:40, Jonny wrote:
in listing all those possible situations, i was being rhetorical. :) |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 21st, 2007, 4:09pm on 04/21/07 at 15:58:07, ahhpoop wrote:
Rhetorical in a way that it only applies to this situation in a whimsical sense? Quote:
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by alienspacebabe on Apr 21st, 2007, 4:37pm There was a woman in a wheelchair at Reagan Airport yesterday. When I asked her if she needed help getting on the plane, she was stone silent. Slowly she turned her head toward me, the stiffened up and screamed bloody murder. Twisted up and falling out of her wheelchair, but still stiff, someone behind me said "What did you do to her?". With some of the truly twisted thinking in this thread, I suppose many of you will/would blame me for her diabetic seizure. ------ Who's at fault for the shootings? The damn shooter, no one else. Not someone who failed to smile at him; not someone who didn't talk to the scary guy sitting next to him/her in class. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by ahhpoop on Apr 21st, 2007, 4:42pm on 04/21/07 at 16:09:41, Kevin_M wrote:
i apologize. i'm not explaining myself very well. what i meant by listing all the possible outcomes, i.e, "what if he had gotten some help", "what if people were nicer to him", "what if his teachers had paid attention", was to bring to attention that there are a lot of "what if's" that come into play here. the list itself is rhetorical, not fact. i don't know if people tried to befriend him, i don't know if he was abused. it's all specualtion, but my point was we can speculate all we want, and point as many fingers as we want, but it doesn't do anyone any good to play the blame game. no one really achieves comfort from that, and the guilt placed on someone else, i think, is unnessisary. Change is the key. crap i hope that made more sense.. :-/ i feel like i've been talking in circles. damn lack of sleep |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Jonny on Apr 21st, 2007, 6:29pm on 04/21/07 at 16:42:22, ahhpoop wrote:
YOU dont know lack of sleep, thank you! |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Kevin_M on Apr 21st, 2007, 7:14pm Thank you Lizzie, for acknowledging and finely illustrating the biological aspects to some sicknesses, be them mental or physical in expression, that may not be outwardly noticable upon appearance and nice social contact is not necessarily the method for effecting change or containing. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by andrewjb on Apr 21st, 2007, 7:20pm could not have done it with a bow and arrow. so, yes, the gun is inpersonel. andrew |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by BB on Apr 21st, 2007, 7:50pm No, its not the gun that kills, its the brain that controls the hands that hold that gun that kills. However, the types of guns and the number of guns will determine how many and how quickly and how deadly that brain can kill. IF a greencard holder is not allowed to legally buy a gun, let alone a high capacity one or two or three, even if that brain wants to kill it would have to resort to knives or machetes or something more mundane, then the outcome would not have been as tragic, no ? I vote for legislation to restrict gun and ammunition purchase to the least lethal and the least amount, and that all registered gun owner should have a mental health check every year or so. It still wont stop this sort of tragedy from happening, but at least it will be reduced in some significant way. Just my humble opinion. Annette |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by burnt-toast on Apr 21st, 2007, 10:09pm Criminal and dangerous activities caught the attention of professionals and law enforcement agencies. A professor had Cho removed from class and tutored him one on one because she believed he was a threat to other students. He was required to submit to a mental evaluation and the assessment was mental illness rendered Cho a threat to himself and possibly others. This information was either not officially reported and/or possibly never included in Cho’s official criminal and mental history. Cho passed a background check that should have stopped him from acquiring a firearm and subjected him to arrest/prosecution for state/federal firearms violations. Disregarding the fact that a huge black market for guns/drugs is supported by open border/free-illegal immigration policies and inspection of less than 10% of goods shipped into U.S. ports. There is a major problem that has to be fixed and a lack of existing gun laws, owner requirements/restrictions and gun controls isn’t it. Poor enforcement of existing laws, use of existing laws as bargaining chips with criminals and poor maintenance of existing controls is the problem. To speed up “The Process” firearms violations are routinely overlooked/plea-bargained away, and felonies that require forfeiture of gun rights reduced to misdemeanors. Mandatory sentencing for firearms violations are routinely ignored. A mature background check system, funded through the sale firearms, doesn’t contain information needed to stop criminals/mentally ill from purchasing firearms. I’m tired of demands for more gun laws, gun controls, owner requirements and restrictions when so little effort has been made to make what already exists work as intended. Tom |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by ahhpoop on Apr 22nd, 2007, 4:26pm on 04/21/07 at 18:29:02, Jonny wrote:
i'd say two hours worth of sleep over three days constitutes a significant lack of sleep. falling asleep driving, foregtting where you are, and not remebering how you got from one room to the next, i think, represents a significant lack of sleep. for me, at least. just my unprofessional opinion, my dahling. kisses, hannah |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by ahhpoop on Apr 22nd, 2007, 4:28pm on 04/21/07 at 19:20:44, andrewjb wrote:
meh, that is a valid point. ;) |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by DonnaHar on Apr 22nd, 2007, 4:50pm Ditto to what Tom said. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Racer1_NC on Apr 22nd, 2007, 5:01pm on 04/21/07 at 22:09:17, burnt-toast wrote:
Well said! Bill |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by deltadarlin on Apr 22nd, 2007, 6:17pm What Tom said. Yeah, a gun is *inpersonal* (whatever the hell that means) as Andrew said, but you know, if I want to cause mass murder and mayhem, I don't need a gun either. All I need to do, is get in my vehicle, well, might use the Ford 250 instead and find me a crowd and start mowing people down. I could probably take out as many if not more before I could be stopped. Chained/locked doors and a molotov cocktail or two =major carnage. Few well-placed pipe bombs (easy as hell to build, look anywhere on the internet)=major carnage. FWIW, gun ownership (particularly in states that offer concealed carry permits) by responsible, law abiding citizens has proved to cause a drop in crimes against individuals (rape, assault, etc.). The Lott-Mustard Study. With the publication of the Lott-Mustard study, "Crime, Deterrence and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns," [43] advocates of shall-issue licensing systems have significant criminological support for the claim that shall-issue systems save lives, prevent rapes and robberies, and confer benefits that extend well beyond those garnered by the people who are issued the permits. Analyzing crime data from all 3,054 counties in the United States throughout the period 1977-92, Lott and Mustard found that when shall-issue licensing laws went into effect in a county, murders fell by 7.65 percent, rapes fell by 5.2 percent, robberies fell by 2.2 percent, and aggravated assaults fell by 7 percent. In 1992 there were 18,469 murders, 79,272 rapes, 538,368 robberies, and 861,103 aggravated assaults in counties that did not have shall-issue licensing systems. Had those counties had such laws, Lott and Mustard found, there would have been 1,414 fewer murders, 4,177 fewer rapes, 11,898 fewer robberies, and 60,363 fewer aggravated assaults. On the other hand, property crime rates increased 2.7 percent--after the passage of shall-issue laws--so there would have been 247,165 more property crimes. Lott and Mustard conclude that criminals respond to the threat of being shot by victims by substituting less risky, nonconfrontational crimes. The results further showed that, while passage of shall-issue laws resulted in immediate altered violent crime rates, an additional reduction occurred over time, and that for most violent crimes like murder, rape, and aggravated assault, concealed-weapon laws had the greatest deterrent effect in counties with high crime rates. The results were obtained after taking into account and factoring out the effect of other variables that could account for the reduction in violent crime, such as changes in population, income levels, racial and age breakdown, changes in arrest rates, conviction rates, increased sentencing penalties, and changes in other gun control laws. For example, one of the other conclusions an analysis of the data provided was that waiting periods appear to have no effect on the violent crime rate. Because of the possibility, often raised by critics of concealed-carry laws, that increased carrying of handguns would result in increases in accidental deaths from firearms, Lott and Mustard also examined the effect of shall-issue laws on the accidental death rate from firearms. Their analysis showed that the accidental handgun death rate rose by about 0.5 percent when shall-issue concealed handgun laws were passed. Because the number of accidental handgun deaths is already low (156 in the United States in 1988), their analysis predicts that implementing shall-issue licensing systems in the states that do not have them would have resulted in less than one (.851) more death. There is a rebuttal to this, of course, for those of you who want to read it, here is the link (be aware, this is lenghty). http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-284.html#FOOTNOTE_1 continued so I dont' lose this post |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by deltadarlin on Apr 22nd, 2007, 6:43pm and I misspelled lengthy [smiley=laugh.gif]. Notably, despite fears of opponents that the licensing laws will lead to increased crime and violence, the criminologists criticizing the Lott-Mustard study are arguing only that shall-issue licensing laws have no demonstrable effect on violent crime rates, that is, they neither decrease violent crime rates nor increase them. It remains to be seen whether Lott and Mustard's findings will withstand the scrutiny now being brought to bear on them, or whether the critics are correct. However, after intense scrutiny of 10 years of national data, there is no rigorous comprehensive economic analysis supporting the view that shall-issue licensing laws are a danger to public safety In a free society, the burden of proof is borne by those who would restrict the liberty of others. Opponents of shall-issue licensing laws are lacking in hard criminological data and analyses condemning those laws and justifying opponents' desire to prevent persons who satisfy the licensing standards from carrying handguns for self-defense Shall-issue licensing systems are not, as is sometimes asserted by their opponents, another example of America's free-wheeling, hands-off approach to guns. The licensing systems are gun control. Applicants are registered and fingerprinted and their backgrounds are thoroughly checked, both at the state and at the national level through the FBI, for criminal histories, and histories of drug or alcohol abuse and mental illness. In addition, the great majority of states require that applicants have received training with firearms. On the basis of 10 years of experience in 25 states, we may conclude that shall-issue licensing systems work. They accomplish the twin goals of providing a mechanism by which law-abiding citizens can carry the means with which to defend themselves from a violent criminal assault that imminently threatens life or grievous bodily harm and provide the public reasonable assurance that those who receive permits are persons who will act responsibly. FYI, Vermont has no laws against openly or having a concealed weapon-39. Vermont authorizes any competent person with no criminal history to carry a concealed firearm without a license. Some local restrictions are imposed. . Anyone remember Pearl, Mississippi~In 1997, an assistant principle in Pearl, Mississippi used a handgun he had retreived from his pickup truck to halt and detain a perpetrator who had killed three in a public high school. Or perhaps the case that provided for the passage the concealed carry act in Mississippi? A young lady was being stalked and he almost killed her, the guy laughed at the restraining order. She got a pistol, and when he tried to attack her again, she shot him and killed him. After that, Mississippi passed the concealed carry law. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Maffumatt on Apr 24th, 2007, 8:19am http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/187536.php Miss America 1944 Still Has Good Aim Via CNN: WAYNESBURG, Kentucky (AP) -- Miss America 1944 has a talent that probably has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle's tires and stop an intruder. Venus Ramey, 82, confronted a man on her farm in south-central Kentucky last week after she saw her dog run into a storage building where thieves had previously made off with old farm equipment. Ramey said the man told her he would leave. "I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave," Ramey said. She had to balance on her walker as she pulled out a snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun. "I didn't even think twice. I just went and did it," she said. "If they'd even dared come close to me, they'd be 6 feet under by now."... ..."I'm trying to live a quiet, peaceful life and stay out of trouble, and all it is, is one thing after another," she said. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by Mac_Muz on Apr 24th, 2007, 8:38am on 04/24/07 at 08:19:30, Maffumatt wrote:
From another source I uderstood it as SHE asked them to leave and they then refused. I don't know for a fact which is true. |
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Title: Re: Is it really the gun that kills? Post by ahhpoop on Apr 25th, 2007, 9:26am on 04/24/07 at 08:38:29, Mac_Muz wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.... |
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