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        New Message Board Archives >> 2007 General Board Posts >> Re: : - (
        
(Message started by: BarbaraD on Mar 29th, 2007, 9:11am)
Title: Re: : - (
Post by BarbaraD on Mar 29th, 2007, 9:11am
Maybe it's time Congress took another look and MAYBE listened to the American Legion - after all they're the ones who have DEFENDED that flag.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by Gator on Mar 29th, 2007, 9:34am
Now THIS is something we can agree on.  In a lot of other countries, disrespect to their national symbol means death.  Here it means $10 per head at the door to some "art" exhibit.  Disgusting.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 29th, 2007, 10:54am
As a veteran and defender of the flag and all that it stands for, I still believe in the right to free-speech and protest.   :-/  I know I'm probably in the minority, but honestly I think if a person is disgusted with America they have a right to voice their displeasure.  
Title: Re: : - (
Post by Brewcrew on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:00am

on 03/29/07 at 10:54:39, thomas wrote:
As a veteran and defender of the flag and all that it stands for, I still believe in the right to free-speech and protest.   :-/  I know I'm probably in the minority, but honestly I think if a person is disgusted with America they have a right to voice their displeasure.  

As long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others or break the law.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:06am

on 03/29/07 at 11:00:12, Brewcrew wrote:
As long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others or break the law.

Agreed.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by Brewcrew on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:29am

on 03/29/07 at 11:06:53, thomas wrote:
Agreed.

I'm with ya, brutha. That's part of what makes this on-going experiment (230+ years) in democracy so great.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:34am

on 03/29/07 at 11:29:16, Brewcrew wrote:
I'm with ya, brutha. That's part of what makes this on-going experiment (230+ years) in democracy so great.

I'm not a big fan of the "lab results" from the last 40 or so years, though.  ;)
Title: Re: : - (
Post by JeffB on Mar 29th, 2007, 12:15pm
Hmmm, Say what you want about America, say what you want about anything. But don't burn our flag.  ;)
Title: Re: : - (
Post by BarbaraD on Mar 29th, 2007, 12:26pm

on 03/29/07 at 12:15:14, JeffB wrote:
Hmmm, Say what you want about America, say what you want about anything. But don't burn our flag.  ;)


Free speech Yes -- Flag Burning - NO!

That's just me (and a lot of people who died defending old glory) but flag burning should be a treasonous (sp) act and punishable. Say what you want - yell all you want - call anyone names you want to, but leave the flag alone to fly as a symbol it's always been of freedom to do the other things.

And for goodness sakes - TEACH our KIDS to RESPECT the flag. We USED TO say the Pledge of Allegiance to the FLAG every morning in SCHOOL. It meant something then - it should mean the same thing today.

Politically correct be damned!
Title: Re: : - (
Post by ClusterChuck on Mar 29th, 2007, 12:31pm

on 03/29/07 at 12:26:24, BarbaraD wrote:
Politically correct be damned!


I don't see anything politically incorrect in what you said!

A lot of us here put in our time defending Old Glory.  Respect it, or get the fuck out!

The border is ------------------> that way!!!

Chuck
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 29th, 2007, 1:09pm

on 03/29/07 at 12:15:14, JeffB wrote:
Hmmm, Say what you want about America, say what you want about anything. But don't burn our flag.  ;)

So what you're saying is that in this country, a person can buy something, but has no right to do with it what he wants, even if it does no harm to others?
Title: It is the Soldier
Post by Mosaicwench on Mar 29th, 2007, 1:17pm
IT IS THE SOLDIER

It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.

It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
Title: Re: It is the Soldier
Post by thomas on Mar 29th, 2007, 1:35pm

on 03/29/07 at 13:17:47, Mosaicwench wrote:
IT IS THE SOLDIER

It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.

It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC



100% truth.  And as I said I was one.  I put my life on the line to preserve peoples right to burn the flag that I love and respect.  Freedom can not be limited.  We are either free or we are not.  Freedom should not be legislated.
Title: Re: It is the Soldier
Post by andrewjb on Mar 29th, 2007, 3:14pm

on 03/29/07 at 13:35:23, thomas wrote:
100% truth.  Freedom can not be limited.  We are either free or we are not.  Freedom should not be legislated.

:). hear hear. andrew.                                                       ps. i appologise for snipping your post.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by Charlie on Mar 29th, 2007, 10:58pm
I have an idea that perhaps there should be degrees of desecration...but that would a tough one.

I love the flag but my allegiance is more to the country. Burning a flag should not be illegal, a really ineffective way to get across a point but only very rarely illegal.

That idea is why this is a great country.

Charlie
Title: Re: It is the Soldier
Post by Mosaicwench on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:06pm

on 03/29/07 at 13:35:23, thomas wrote:
I put my life on the line to preserve peoples right to burn the flag that I love and respect.  


If I haven't said it before, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your service to this country.

I gratefully sleep under the blanket of protection you (and others like you) provide.

We owe you a debt that can never be repaid but "thank you" is a start.
Title: Re: It is the Soldier
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Mar 29th, 2007, 11:32pm

on 03/29/07 at 13:35:23, thomas wrote:
 Freedom can not be limited.  We are either free or we are not.  Freedom should not be legislated.


I dont know if i agree with you, bro.  
First of all, we have guidelines and laws about freedom.  You cant drive your car 100 mph, you cant have sex with kids, you cant yell fire in a crowded theater and so on.  These are limits which a free society agrees to (figuratively).

You have to limit freedom, or at least set guidelines for it for the sake of public safety and common standards or chaos will ensue

Course, thats just my opinion.

 
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 30th, 2007, 8:40am
Who is physically harmed when a flag is burned?  Who's rights are infringed upon when a flag is burned?  I'm sorry but there is a big difference between flag burning as a sign of protest and molesting children, my mind can not make the connection of the two.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by BarbaraD on Mar 30th, 2007, 9:57am

on 03/30/07 at 08:40:22, thomas wrote:
Who is physically harmed when a flag is burned?  Who's rights are infringed upon when a flag is burned?  I'm sorry but there is a big difference between flag burning as a sign of protest and molesting children, my mind can not make the connection of the two.


Ok, I can't let this one go....

It's OK to infringe on my rights to say "One nation UNDER GOD" and have prayer in schools where I pay taxes, but it's freedom of speech for someone to burn a flag - that insults our men in uniform (in my opinion) because it's a symbol of that very freedom these men/women are fighting for.

When I was a kid we were taught "Flag Etiquitte" - You never put the flag up before daylight and always took it down before dark. You never let the flag touch the ground (it had to be destroyed -respectfully (I think you were supposed to send it to DC to be burned a certain way)  - if it touched the ground). It had to be folded each time it came off the flag pole and it was "honor" to be allowed to put it up and take it down. You never put the flag up in the rain and took it down immediately if it started raining.  And about 100 other things that I can't recall right now.

During Viet Nam, the first time I saw a "flag Burning" I just watched in horror that someone would do that. I hated the war, did NOT agree with it and wrote congress daily in protest, but NEVER even considered buring a flag. Good grief - I had friends and relatives over there.

Sorry I feel so strongly on this but I do. If you think it's ok, then we just disagree - and that's ok too.

Hugs BD
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 30th, 2007, 10:27am

on 03/30/07 at 09:57:33, BarbaraD wrote:
Ok, I can't let this one go....

It's OK to infringe on my rights to say "One nation UNDER GOD" and have prayer in schools where I pay taxes, but it's freedom of speech for someone to burn a flag - that insults our men in uniform (in my opinion) because it's a symbol of that very freedom these men/women are fighting for.

When I was a kid we were taught "Flag Etiquitte" - You never put the flag up before daylight and always took it down before dark. You never let the flag touch the ground (it had to be destroyed -respectfully (I think you were supposed to send it to DC to be burned a certain way)  - if it touched the ground). It had to be folded each time it came off the flag pole and it was "honor" to be allowed to put it up and take it down. You never put the flag up in the rain and took it down immediately if it started raining.  And about 100 other things that I can't recall right now.

During Viet Nam, the first time I saw a "flag Burning" I just watched in horror that someone would do that. I hated the war, did NOT agree with it and wrote congress daily in protest, but NEVER even considered buring a flag. Good grief - I had friends and relatives over there.

Sorry I feel so strongly on this but I do. If you think it's ok, then we just disagree - and that's ok too.

Hugs BD


Just a little story for you that I'm sure you can appreciate.  When I was in the Army, I had the pleasure of being on flag detail (the guys who take the flag up the pole, and take it down and fold it at night) for a short time at both posts that I was stationed at.  The first time was during my basic training/AIT time at Ft. McClellan AL.  The second time was at Ft. Bragg at the NCO accademy this was during the time that President Nixon passed away, on this particular flag detail I was the NCO in charge of the flag detail, I actually got to do the "folding".  It was an amazing honor to be responsible for the academy's flag during that time because the flag had to be at half-mast for 30 days.  In order to fly a flag at half mast, you must first run it all the way up, then bring it down to half-mast.  We (the flag detail personel) practiced for hours a day in order to get it right.  It is a lot harder than it looks.   By the end of my time doing this, I was quite the expert on folding the flag and all counts of flag ettiquite.  Trust me, I think you may have to look very hard and wide to find someone who respects the flag more than I do.  I was willing to give my life for it.  But following the principle of how much I value our freedom, I must (in order to be honest with myself) defend the rights of others who do not agree with our government, to make their voice heard and displeasure known.  There was a time when I thought flag burners should be shot in public, but my idea of freedom and being able to accept that freedom is a very broad intangilbe thing that can not be molded to fit our own personal wants and desires, has changed my out look quite a bit.  It doesn't matter if I agree with those people or not, I took an oath to protect them and their rights given to them under the Constitution and I will always champion freedom for U.S. citizens even as a civilian, it means that much to me.  I can totally understand your POV Barb.  You know I love and respect you.  And I know we can agree to disagree peacefully on this.  Just giving everyone a little deeper look into MY persective when it comes to this issue, because I'm sure most of you were shocked to learn that I fall on the side of the argument that I do.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 30th, 2007, 10:30am
Just another little side note on the flag, to me it is much more of a disgrace to see a flag hanging in the rain, tattered, not taken down at the proper times of day, left out and neglected by "patriots" than it is to see one burned in protest.  If you're gonna fly it, respect it and do it properly or don't bother.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by Brewcrew on Mar 30th, 2007, 11:53am

on 03/30/07 at 10:30:32, thomas wrote:
Just another little side note on the flag, to me it is much more of a disgrace to see a flag hanging in the rain, tattered, not taken down at the proper times of day, left out and neglected by "patriots" than it is to see one burned in protest.  If you're gonna fly it, respect it and do it properly or don't bother.

Since when is it considered disrespectful to fly a flag in the rain? I'm just askin'.

I thought it was considered disrespectful to fly a flag after sunset if you don't have the means to light it, but I've never heard the one about the rain.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 30th, 2007, 11:58am

on 03/30/07 at 11:53:48, Brewcrew wrote:
Since when is it considered disrespectful to fly a flag in the rain? I'm just askin'.

I thought it was considered disrespectful to fly a flag after sunset if you don't have the means to light it, but I've never heard the one about the rain.


I meant to say "leave it up 24/7" and forget about it, because "I'm flying the flag at my house, look how patriotic I am".  I think you get my drift.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by Brewcrew on Mar 30th, 2007, 12:22pm

on 03/30/07 at 11:58:06, thomas wrote:
I meant to say "leave it up 24/7" and forget about it, because "I'm flying the flag at my house, look how patriotic I am".  I think you get my drift.

I ask because we fly the flag 24/7 at our house, but we always have a flood light on it that goes on just before dusk and goes off just after dawn. We let it fly in the rain, but take it down if there is the potential for strong winds.

In other words, it's not just stuck up and forgotten.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by ClusterChuck on Mar 30th, 2007, 12:30pm

on 03/30/07 at 11:53:48, Brewcrew wrote:
Since when is it considered disrespectful to fly a flag in the rain?

I had never heard that either.  Now I am going to surf the net, and see if I can find any reference to it.

Chuck (Who agrees to disagree with Thomas, too, and still respect him)
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 30th, 2007, 12:33pm

on 03/30/07 at 12:22:14, Brewcrew wrote:
I ask because we fly the flag 24/7 at our house, but we always have a flood light on it that goes on just before dusk and goes off just after dawn. We let it fly in the rain, but take it down if there is the potential for strong winds.

In other words, it's not just stuck up and forgotten.


That's what's important.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 30th, 2007, 12:35pm
§174. Time and occasions for display
(a) Display on buildings and stationary flagstaffs in open; night display
It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness.

(b) Manner of hoisting
The flag should be hoisted briskly and lowered ceremoniously.

(c) Inclement weather
The flag should not be displayed on days when the weather is inclement, except when an all weather flag is displayed.
(d) Particular days of display
The flag should be displayed on all days, especially on New Year's Day, January 1; Inauguration Day, January 20; Lincoln's Birthday, February 12; Washington's Birthday, third Monday in February; Easter Sunday (variable); Mother's Day, second Sunday in May; Armed Forces Day, third Saturday in May; Memorial Day (half-staff until noon), the last Monday in May; Flag Day, June 14; Independence Day, July 4; Labor Day, first Monday in September; Constitution Day, September 17; Columbus Day, second Monday in October; Navy Day, October 27; Veterans Day, November 11; Thanksgiving Day, fourth Thursday in November; Christmas Day, December 25; and such other days as may be proclaimed by the President of the United States; the birthdays of States (date of admission); and on State holidays.

(e) Display on or near administration building of public institutions
The flag should be displayed daily on or near the main administration building of every public institution.

(f) Display in or near polling places
The flag should be displayed in or near every polling place on election days.

(g) Display in or near schoolhouses
The flag should be displayed during school days in or near every schoolhouse.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by ClusterChuck on Mar 30th, 2007, 12:40pm
Thanks, Thomas, I hadn't gotten to looking yet.

Even an old fart like me can learn something new!!!

Chuck
Title: Re: : - (
Post by FramCire on Mar 30th, 2007, 12:49pm
I can't stand those who desecrate the flag but I also can't understand those who think it should be a crime.  A person's right to desecrate the flag is what makes the flag so important.  The fact that our country doesn't expect everyone to respect or believe the way our government wants them to is what makes our country different.

With this said, there is no reason people can't boycott the bussinesses of people who desecrate the flag.  There is no reason that people can't lawfully find ways to express their disgust at those who do it.  It would be nice of the media would ignore people who do this, making their protest moot.  If people acted like it wasn't a big deal, people wouldn't do it to make a point.

It is ironic that what the flag means to me is the exact reason people can legally disrespect it, so while I hate seeing it happen, when it does it reminds me that we live in a country where symbols mean less than people's rights and where our government allows people who don't agree with them to speak their minds.

Strangely, I get even more angry seeing confederate flags at the top of flagpoles here.  The civil war has been over a LONG time.  Let's unite under our current flag, shall we.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by thomas on Mar 30th, 2007, 1:53pm

on 03/30/07 at 12:49:40, FramCire wrote:
I can't stand those who desecrate the flag but I also can't understand those who think it should be a crime.  A person's right to desecrate the flag is what makes the flag so important.  The fact that our country doesn't expect everyone to respect or believe the way our government wants them to is what makes our country different.

With this said, there is no reason people can't boycott the bussinesses of people who desecrate the flag.  There is no reason that people can't lawfully find ways to express their disgust at those who do it.  It would be nice of the media would ignore people who do this, making their protest moot.  If people acted like it wasn't a big deal, people wouldn't do it to make a point.

It is ironic that what the flag means to me is the exact reason people can legally disrespect it, so while I hate seeing it happen, when it does it reminds me that we live in a country where symbols mean less than people's rights and where our government allows people who don't agree with them to speak their minds.

Strangely, I get even more angry seeing confederate flags at the top of flagpoles here.  The civil war has been over a LONG time.  Let's unite under our current flag, shall we.

Well said indeed.
Title: Re: : - (
Post by Charlie on Mar 31st, 2007, 1:10am
I hate people using flags and representations of them as large pieces of clothing. Something wrong with this.

American's rather unique rules for flags and our displaying it everywhere does not stem from our beginnings. It began some time in the late 1800s.

Now and then I see old pictures of 100 year-old plus photos that aren't identified and could be from England or other European contries. Things like resorts and the like can be hard to identify but a very good indication that it's a foreign image is when no flags are displayed. It's a very American thing.

Charlie


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