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Title: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Feb 28th, 2007, 10:53am I read a post here recently concering suicide. That post may be up for deletion, but I think the topic deserves a discussion.... All this is intened to be, is a discussion.... I could indentify with parts of the post, and when I was at my worst I had these thoughts myself. My wife knew I had them because I told her. In the post I could relate to not knowing where I was when I woke up, and had problems knowing who I was too... I am willing to bet that poster and I, am not alone either. Lets just see who is comforatable enough to addmitt it and say so, and perhaps say why. By the way it isn't something I am giving the slightest attion to currently and so this isn't some wild plea... If it gets any warmer than it is I might go ride my motorcycle later today.....ok.... ;;D Mac... edited for spelling and grammar |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Feb 28th, 2007, 11:44am Some of us have never seriously contemplated suicide. I would be one of those who have not. Perhaps you'll say, then, that it has never been that bad for me. Perhaps. Or perhaps physical pain is different for each individual. Perhaps it is a reflection of our coping skills. I don't know the answers. But I do know this. If I were to take my own life, it would leave a number of people emotionally scarred for the rest of their lives. I would not do that to them. Instead, I choose to bear the pain of this affliction. Life between the hits is grand. Plus, it keeps more people happy that way. Suicide - not an option. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by marlinsfan on Feb 28th, 2007, 12:49pm I did consider it in the past, more than 11 years ago. I admitted to it and understood when the last of our members (Lee) took his own life and I took a lot of heat for posting my thoughts. I'm not there anymore, thankfully, and will never be there again. Thanks in large part to this group. Thanks, AGAIN, DJ. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Feb 28th, 2007, 2:33pm A couple of brave gents to make comment.... I am not here to play judge.... I will not be sending the winner any prizes either.... |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by JeffB on Feb 28th, 2007, 2:41pm Nunya! |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Feb 28th, 2007, 2:50pm on 02/28/07 at 14:33:55, Mac_Muz wrote:
WTF are you talking about? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by JeffB on Feb 28th, 2007, 2:54pm ::) I was wondering the same thing, Brew. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Feb 28th, 2007, 3:04pm Oh was that difficult? I am asking about a issue I think is important... I was saying I am not running a contest, and wasn't about to judge any opinions. Jeff WTF is a Nunya!? Inaddition I was thinking no one would reply.... ever. So for those that did I thought it was brave....of them. There, does that make it better ? Brew thanks for the first reply, but no thanks on the 2nd.... no offence... mac |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Feb 28th, 2007, 3:09pm Perhaps you could attempt to be less cryptic. Then I wouldn't have to ask wtf you're talking about. You're welcome on the first. Wish I didn't feel the need to post the second. [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Feb 28th, 2007, 3:13pm probably why I get 3 stars eh? ;;D |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by JeffB on Feb 28th, 2007, 3:13pm First, who are you and why would I (not speaking for anyone else) talk to or give an opinion or thought on a subject like this to you? I comment on a lot of stuff my friend but I think what you're asking is a bit personal for a place like this. So "nunya" friggin business about my concerns regarding suicide. ;) |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by BB on Feb 28th, 2007, 3:14pm Dear Mac, Why did you think no one would reply? We openly discussed this topic many times in the past. If you go back into archives and have a look, there are threads pages long on this topic where just about everyone posted candidly about their own thoughts and experience. The last one was not that long ago either. If not as many post an answer to you now, its more likely that we are just tired of talking about the same topic again and not getting anywhere in particular. Its a reality with CH and we deal with it but its not something most CHers or supporters want to dwell in. You become your thoughts. Back to rowing the boat. Talk to you later. Annette |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Feb 28th, 2007, 3:44pm on 02/28/07 at 15:14:20, BB wrote:
Ok... plz don't take this personal cause this is completely in general and meant to more than one person..... why do we have to refer back to the archives for difficult questions/answers. I personally have never been able to use the search on this website, the search always takes forever and then comes up incomplete, so why can't we bring up "old" issues, now? They aren't old to ppl that were not there for the archives time! And plz Annette don't take this as a personal attack at all... I just quoted your post as an example. I just think old issues should be brought up ... and well u gave me a good example to jump from. Also I would never admit to suice attempts and emotional issues on this board , back in the day, but I'm more open about myself now. I can openly admit I wanted to die years and years ago, and if I were to get judged I really don't care. I know me, I know the road I travelled to get where I am and I am ok with that, years ago I was not ok with admitting any of my past "issues" ... so you would not find any posts about me swallowing bottles of pills and laying down to sleep. ..... so this is good, this thread IMHO... |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Feb 28th, 2007, 4:15pm it is a touchy subject I've seen threads like this shut down before There's a reason they call it suicide headache. That's no accident. It's not something we want to sensationalize. For good reason. I prefer to let people discuss their suicide thoughts via private message or phone or email. That's just me. I do see, from time to time, people who really want to discuss it in the open. But, like I said, it's a touchy subject. People have strong views on it, just like politics or religion. It never goes as the original poster intended. I'm not sure it's a topic that can be discussed in the open without creating a fuss. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by BB on Feb 28th, 2007, 4:22pm Dear Taraann No offense taken at all :-* Its a discussion and anyone's opinion is valid, yours and mine. I didnt say this thread is a bad idea, I just felt that the recent event has caused many of us certain emotional turmoil and time is needed, at least for the many who were knee deep in it trying to do practical things such as ringing around and trying to make contact. I could be totally wrong and the fact maybe that everyone here would love to talk about suicide, again. I apologise if I sounded like I am generalising. I believe though that it helps to go back to the archives as the better we know our history, the better we can understand our present and our future. Of course its a personal choice and I agree that the search function is not straight forwards. Still, history has its place. JMHO. Painfree wishes to you all. Annette |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Feb 28th, 2007, 6:48pm Jeff I am no one in particular... I have Ch's just like everyone else on here, other than Ch supporters... I am not the suicidal type but I got there one time over Ch directly. I was a royal mess in short order. I have never heard or seen the term you used before either if it matters... At times I get myself into trouble as I have here now too, being something of a hard ass... I come from the school of hard knocks... As Brew asked I will attempt to be less cryptic, but won't make promises it will never happen again. No offence was intended, and I didn't take any... If I owe any appology you have it... Same goes for Brew... ............................... BB, I simply didn't know that this had been discussed ever. I saw a few things in the other thread that I saw in myself. I wondered if anyone else had. It was a simple thing, or so I thought. I understood that it would be controvercial before I started. I also understand that the poster was in bad pain at the first post, I have been there. I saw also the poster had suffered more than a few other things some related to meds and others not related to a Ch at all, and some of those I suffer from as well, being permanent nerve damge from an accident crushing my back and having a broken neck. I am not trying to force any issues with that poster in any way. I am sorry if I have opened a touchy subject to you, and at a bad place in time. I appreciate any opinion. ............................................... taraann, I to had things once I wouldn't discuss openly, being an x drug addict, but I do now in hopes others might gain some insite, and maybe if they get lucky can learn with out paying for the lessons... I have my doubts.... When I was given a trial imitrex injector the nurse appeared shocked I knew how. :-/ ........................................................ Fubar, Thanks for the opinion I mean it! I am sort of surprised it came so easy ;) I agree with it all too. Really thank you.... ..................................................... I am willing to answer any questions about me openly or in pm.... mac |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Feb 28th, 2007, 7:08pm on 02/28/07 at 18:48:43, Mac_Muz wrote:
Mac, What you probably dont know is that Dave shows up here every six months and pulls this suicide shit, he has been doing it for many years. almost always his suicide threads are deleted. ..................................Jonny |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Feb 28th, 2007, 7:43pm Mac - You don't need to apologize to me. I was simply trying to ascertain the meaning of what you had written. With your explanation I think I now have that. I apologize to you for using "WTF." That was over the top and rude, and I could have been more polite. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:11pm Brew, Thanks.... and with what Jonny just told me we are on the same page now. I think I will blame this all on jonny ! Hey why not? Jonny, No I sure didn't know that. While I am feeling a tad more stupid than my normal stupid just now, the questions of opinions remain valid if ony to me? I heal like a Victorian virgin, so I can live with it... My pm box is fillin' up pretty fast too. It is odd there is all I will say, with yeah and nay.... Those will be secrets forever... One of my motos in life is Live and Squirm. I figured posting this might have a certain pay back, and what I don't know is what that will be.... I am about to find that out too.. mac |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:30pm Personally I think the whole suicide/Cluster relationship and connection is a contrived crock of shit. I 've met literally hundreds of suffers through this board and in person and guess what? To the best of my knowledge they are still trucking along. The six month drama threads keep popping up but guess what? That individual isn't gone either. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:34pm My issues were not "only" CH related........ but like I said it's good to be able to discuss such hard issues openly. really and I am truly glad they can be. Because HOPEFULLY someone else can learn something from mine or others hardtimes. These emotional issues are hard issues and I am one for learning from my own mistakes or taking some lessons from other ppls mistakes. So I hope someone out there realizes that suicide is NOT the answer to anything and if u do succeed you are hurting someone somewhere sometime, even if it's not someone u know personally. If I had succeeded I would have permanently hurt ppl I know, ppl that love me or look up to me. Tara the "martyr" would have changed the course of more lives than I care to admit if I suceeded in my suiced attempts. I don't carry that martyr torch anymore but I do realize that I am a wanted/loved/cared about person ..... |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:37pm on 02/28/07 at 20:30:48, chewy wrote:
You've got to stop holding it inside like this. It's gonna eat you up, man! Tell us how you really feel! ;;D |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:38pm What Chewy said! Ive been to six conventions and numerous get togethers and ALL of the hundreds of people I met are still alive! The name "Suicide headache" is pure bull-shit!!! It may happen far and few between....but we should not be stuck with that lable |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:41pm Quote:
LMAO! I've got to stop sugar coating things. I'll start now. This thread has no fucking place on a CH treatment and support site. Take it to a suicide prevention site if you are so compelled to discuss a phenomenon that that just does not happen in direct relation to CH. Waste of CH space. (That better Brew? LOL) |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:45pm I'm sorry but regardless of the source or the reason... suicide is not a joke or something to dog... my personal issues were more than 5yrs ago so I am not taking you not a very nice person's being a$$holes personally but DAMN it's just lame that u ppl would be so insensitive about a really real subject....... I'm so flustered I can't come up with the proper words to describe what as$$holes u are!!!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:48pm Quote:
That works pretty good. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:49pm How is death regardless if it's a choice or not .. Funny? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:54pm Quote:
Never said it was. What I said was implying that suicide is a reality of CH is a bunch of bullshit so get over yourself. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Feb 28th, 2007, 8:55pm on 02/28/07 at 20:49:46, taraann wrote:
How is coming here every six months and posting your going to do it and you never do.....FUNNY? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:02pm death is NOT funny.... if u choose it.. or don't it's not funny. If someone says they want to die, it's NOT funny or something to be mean about. I have a drama queen for a sister, it's been a "threat" from her, but regardless of the amt of times. It's still not something I take lightly. I mean really and wow and d*mn you just never know . would u feel awfully sh!tty if u found out tomorrow that someone did go through with it and u blew it off or dogged it? I know I would. but then again I am me and u are u....... go ahead and quote that |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:06pm Quote:
Guaranteed it wouldn't be from CH. Why? Becuase its a crock of shit and the implication is to. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:08pm So, are you saying that nobody should ever post anything that could be considered remotely humorous on any thread pertaining to suicide, even if it was quite obvious that the humor involved nothing to do with the subject matter? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:13pm You all aren't worth my time to try to explain your ignorance. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:21pm We have been spending literally years trying to educate people about the realities of CH and these bullshit suicide posts keep popping up. No one, absolutely no one, has ever been able to demonstrate to me one real life situation where someone has off-ed themselves solely because of CH. It is not a reality and it does nothing but detract from what is real about CH and CH treatment. Its a bunch of bullshit, pure and simple. Makes good drama though dont it? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:22pm Annette, I see you out there lurking for hours.....would you like to add something to this conversation seeing that you were married to Dave? Was it his CH that brought him to thoughts of suicide? Please chime in as long as your there. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Lizzie2 on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:28pm First for those who haven't seen the old suicide thread that some have referred to: http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1160380002 Jonny - maybe one of the good things about not deleting Dave's latest thread is that it can stand as a reference - it's got info in it - it's got posts by people who did a great job figuring out how to handle it - and if it were to happen again, then this one could be referenced so that more people understand. Just tryin to see a benefit of keeping it? Not saying that this is the only benefit I see to keeping it - but rather trying to offer up a reason to leave it for those who think it should be deleted. And then on the topic of suicide and clusters. Well - I think I've commented more than enough on the previous big suicide thread linked above. However - I do believe that the association of clusters and suicide may have been over-dramatized by journals, physicians and so on in an attempt to get attention for the disease and its significance. Are ER docs who are not headache specialists more likely to pay attention to a sufferer of something deemed "suicide headaches"? Not saying this was the best way to go about getting the condition attention and serious consideration - because it also gives it stigma and paints sufferers with a brush that doesn't apply to all - but at the same time, I think it did put the condition out there in an "in your face" sort of way that differentiates it from Migraine and all the other headache types. And then also - even though CH may be just one factor in those who feel suicidal and also have CH - I still don't think it's an entire topic that should be banned from this site. There are plenty of things discussed here that have no relationship to CH or headaches at all....and suicide actually does have prevalence to the suffering and experience of SOME people here - I don't think it should be a banned topic just because some are uncomfortable with it or because they don't like the association made between CH and suicide. I don't think the vast majority of people who discuss suicide in this context try to say that they felt suicidal (or that others feel suicidal) solely because of CH - most say that it was just a factor, which is honest. This is a family for so many people, and we all lean on each other when we have hard times....and are there for each other when one another has hard times. So why should someone suddenly have to go to some suicide support site, where probably nobody even knows what clusters are and the dynamic is COMPLETELY different....when the people they need and get support from the most are here? Not saying that this should be a place where people are constantly posting their cries for help and suicide notes - BUT - if people want to discuss this and get a very painful and historically "taboo" topic out in the open, then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed. Based on the very long threads about this topic in the past, it is a very important topic for a lot of people. I don't think that anybody is trying to say that CH = suicide, and I really don't think that newbies are going to see it that way. Newbies aren't brainless - and they can see that people who discuss suicide have other factors in their lives. I don't think a thread on suicide is going to send a newbie over the edge - but rather allow people who have things to say about suicide the ability to breathe a sigh of relief that they actually can discuss these things when the need arises. But that's just my 0.02. I just think people should be allowed to discuss the topic, if the need arises. Flame away if you must - but first maybe take a minute or two to just consider what I'm saying. PF wishes, Carrie :) |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:32pm Quote:
Yup, but those threads are not implying falsehoods about the condition. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:32pm on 02/28/07 at 21:13:33, taraann wrote:
If I'm ignorant, then here is my ignorance, Tara: I have rarely encountered a serious situation in life that can't be made a little more bearable with some humor. I choose to laugh at what many call the absurdities of life. It is precisely this ability that has gotten me through many situations that might have done a lesser man in. I KNOW I'm going to buy the farm someday. That's what makes every single moment between now and then that much more precious. So please don't criticize my unwillingness to wear my heart on my sleeve. I choose to laugh, and every day that passes means I'm one day closer to not being able to laugh anymore. Nobody's laughing at you. We were laughing at the absurdity of CH sufferers being at some vastly increased risk of suicide. It's just not true. Big difference between the two. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:35pm This isn't about a sense of humor. I have a huge sense of humor, I know how to laugh. But I also know what isn't a laughing matter. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Lizzie2 on Feb 28th, 2007, 9:40pm on 02/28/07 at 21:32:54, chewy wrote:
Where is somebody saying that CH directly leads to suicide? Where is somebody saying that they thought about or attempted suicide because of CH alone? Or that anybody else attempted suicide due to just CH? Maybe I'm not reading what you're reading, but all I've seen is people saying that they have considered suicide - and that CH played a part in it, but was not the only reason...or even the main reason. And multiple people have said that. I mean - when people have a lot of bad things and major stressors going on in their lives and then they're getting hit 5,6, 7 times a day...not getting any sleep....and possibly not even having a doctor who will work with them and having that lack of sleep and severe pain bleed into the other areas of their life, such as their job, marriage, etc - is it that unrealistic that CH might contribute to suicidal thoughts, even if it's not the main reason? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Annette_Emond on Feb 28th, 2007, 10:07pm I have said before, and I will say it again here. I follow this board from time to time because I feel that I have earned the right to care and continue to be interested in the daily struggles of everyone here. I do not regularly sign on because I feel that this board was and is Dave's place first, and I would never want him to think that he wouldn't come here because I was here. To answer your direct question Jonny... No, I don't think that Dave's issues stem SOLEY from CH. However, that does not make his problems any less a part of his CH. And I also don't think that you or anyone else has the right to poke sticks at anyone who may have combined issues that bring them here. If it makes you feel better Jonny, I will not sign on- it doesn't stop me from looking in, and it certainly doesn't make you any less of a jerk for trying to rule the roost. I won't even pretend anymore that you might have an ounce of compassion for someone less able than you might think yourself to be to cope with what this and other combined conditions might hand out to some people in their lives. I'm not going to even give any further credit to your opinion of me, of Dave, or of anyone else who might be suffering from something else in addition to CH. You just aren't worth it. Suicide and desperation of any kind are not matters to be taken lightly and joked about. When someone cries out for help, that is all that matters. The fact that this particular person has become desperate enough to cry out should be all that matters to you. So if you want to put that in your pipe and smoke it, have at it! I tried to make my point clear in PM, but you brought it out here. Annette Emond |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 10:09pm Quote:
Contibute to the thoughts YES. But then the thoughts are already there aren't they? The frustartion at running out of Cheeze Whiz might trigger a suicidal reaction by someone with a mental illness. Does that that mean anyone who uses Cheeze Whiz is likely to commit suicide? NO. It dont. Suffering from CH is as likely to cause a suicidal reaction as running out of Cheeze Whiz. You can spin it any way you want but implying suicidal tendencies are a reality of CH is still a contrived crock of shit. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by artonio7 on Feb 28th, 2007, 10:21pm Not condoning suicide... But..... Some choices are made from desperate attempts to escape.... Some choices are made after careful consideration. Both may have the same result... I personally would be more inclined to help the former than the latter to reconsider. I think that's why posting a cry for help is necessary... I believe that it's not much different to the reflex response to pain... try as we may to avoid it, we cry out. It's a component of survival. Ever get a KIP 10 without uttering as much as a whisper or a murmur? As a family of varied individuals with different sensibilities we each choose to respond to the cries for help in the manner that is natural to us. A plea for help will give each of us the opportunity to respond in a way we see fit. CH is not about suicide.... it's about people who suffer. Not allowing people to discuss their degree of suffering here would certainly remove the greatest asset of this family, we heal through learning to help others. How we support each other through our suffering is up to each individual, no different than any other family. Just another 2 cents on the pile. with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Lizzie2 on Feb 28th, 2007, 10:25pm on 02/28/07 at 22:09:17, chewy wrote:
I'm not saying that! All I'm saying is that people should be allowed to discuss it here and it shouldn't be banned. And in reality, the thought might NOT have been there before the CH - if somebody has a lot of stressors and then the CH comes in and creates that many more problems, that may very well be the first time a person considers suicide. Still doesn't mean that CH is the main or only reason - but CH just might have tipped the scales for that person. Again - just contributing. All I'm saying is that people should be allowed to discuss it if they need to. Suicide is not a symptom of depression alone - To quote NIMH: "depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors." - that means that close 10% of people who die (and this is just referring to those who actually die) by suicide do not have depression or another mental illness. So running out of cheese whiz may not just trigger someone with a mental illness to commit suicide, although a more minor stressor may affect a person with mental illness to a greater degree in terms of suicidality whereas a more major stressor might be enough to affect those without mental illness, too. You say that we're all trying to get accurate info about CH out there. Yes - that is very true, and nowhere in anything I've written for educational purposes have I said that CH means suicidal tendencies or even that CH is a risk factor for suicide. I don't use the term suicide headache in the stuff I've written or presented. But this is a message board where people turn for support. It's not the official face of cluster headaches. OUCH should probably not have "CH may cause suicide" in bold print on the front door - and to my knowledge, it doesn't! But discussing it here as a contributing factor does not put out inaccurate info on CH, imho... And it might just save somebody's life who really is having a hard time. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Feb 28th, 2007, 10:30pm on 02/28/07 at 22:07:59, Annette_Emond wrote:
And I agree with that, Annette......however, when someone comes to this board every six moths screaming they are going to kill themself.......for years on end......I say FUCK YOU! Go elsewhere for your attention! You lived with him and you know what its like, right? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Feb 28th, 2007, 10:33pm Lizzie2, Try speaking your mind and not copying and pasting........its fucking boring! |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Feb 28th, 2007, 10:48pm Quote:
Uh sweetheart. If you can find any site on this planet that is closer to the official face of CH then you cut and paste it right here. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Lizzie2 on Feb 28th, 2007, 11:05pm on 02/28/07 at 22:33:05, Jonny wrote:
I copied and pasted 2 sentences - a statistic from NIMH. Don't go attacking me just because you don't like what I have to say. I am speaking my mind. Chewy - Not everything posted on this site pertains to clusters. In fact, a lot of the discussion on the meds board and cluster specific board is searching for info on clusters or proposing things that might work or work for some people - but not necessarily hard and cold CH facts. It's definitely the official site of cluster headache sufferers - but most people aren't spouting off references at the end of all their posts (then we'd REALLY be boring!) - if someone is looking for official information on cluster headaches, and by that - I mean evidence based, then they've gotta turn to official medical organizations or journal sites - or even OUCH. But people take what they read here with a grain of salt. I don't think that discussing suicide in a thread or two is putting "CH causes suicide" on the front door of this place, either. I still love both of you, so can we just put our differences aside? I've said all I need to say, and anything else from me would just be defending myself from a twist on semantics or personal attacks. You know I don't do personal attacks...I'm too nice ;;D Hugz, Carrie :-* |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Gator on Feb 28th, 2007, 11:10pm I'll tell you what is pure bullshit. It's this mentality that if it doesn't happen to me it doesn't happen. You never thought of suicide? Congratulations. I hope you never do get down that low. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though. The only people you know about are the ones here that talk about it. Out of the over 300,000 people in the US alone that have potentially have CH, there are only 6397 registered members on this website and a lot of those aren't from the US. Most of those don't post regularly and a lot of the ones that do are afraid to say anything for fear of ridicule. Kind of like what is happening now. Plenty of people have posted that CH, or maybe more accurately, the depression CAUSED by CH, led them down a dark path where suicide seemed like a viable option. It happened to me when I was getting hit 8 times a day with no abortive and no preventative, very little understanding of the condition and a dipshit doctor that knew less about it than I did. I think most people who do consider it are able to pull themselves back from the edge either because of deeply ingrained religious beliefs that suicide is wrong or because, in those last few minutes, they are able to think of what their suicide will do to the ones they leave behind. For me, it was a combination of both of those and a few caring people here on this board who dared to reach out. Not everyone has a religious upbringing and not everyone has a support structure they can reach out to or that will reach out to them. I'm not saying that it is commonplace or that it happens every day, but anyone that will out and out say IT DOES NOT HAPPEN is in denial. Maybe out of fear of the subject or maybe it touches something in their past they would rather not deal with. Who knows? They certainly would never openly admit it. Like it or not. Believe it or not. Doctors had to get the idea somewhere or it would not have earned the nickname. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Feb 28th, 2007, 11:26pm I hear you Gator. 3 years ago almost exactly, i was in that spot. I had terrible headaches multiple times per night. Sleep dep led to depression. Had no diagnosis or prescriptions, and had no information about CH. I can easily see how one might think to end the CH permanently, I was there. I had no other pressing issues. I had just gotten married, just bought a home, life was looking good, except for those damn headaches. It really was just the CH. I think after someone learns what clusterheadaches are and how to treat them, suicidal thoughts go away. But when you are suffering all alone in excruciating pain with a bottle of asparin, suicide may seem like the only choice. Couse, thats justs my opinion. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Sean_C on Feb 28th, 2007, 11:27pm Suicide is a reality guys, as is ch and all its subsyndromes that go along with it. Ch does not kill, thats a proven fact, but that doesn't mean that someone can't get to the point where they've given up hope, it happens. The way I look at it is, if Lee posted prior to his death that he was going to do what he did, I for one would have reached out to him, but he didn't and look where he is now. I came here to help others, and if I ever got to the point where I was where they were at the time of there posts, I can only hope someone pulls me back too. I'm out of this thread, I can't add anything else. Sean........................................ |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Mar 1st, 2007, 5:25am Ok, there is no way I can answer each and every post now..... 1st off this isn't a post about dave..... 2nd I mod at another site and if you please, I said please, quit with the personal attacks, and you know who you are. I didn't start this so friends could jump friends, and I don't know who is friends. 3 of course since I started this, it is fair to attack me! 4 this is what I was expecting http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=general;acti on=display;num=1160380002 thanks lizzie... I was some where in Texas at the date this post took place last year riding east bound from Cal. I only read the first page so far.... I will read the rest. 5 Some of this is still outstanding 6 some of it sucks 7 I to have a hard time not poking fun at some of the things concerning suicide, but then I have been known to get roaring drunk at wakes, and other times of high emotion. 8 To both Chewy and Annette, I am sorry to have open a can of worms, but it was a simple discussion I had in mind and not quite this mess.. The other thread is 11+ pages, which I didn't know about. Since I read only the first page so far I wonder if it goes from good to not so good in all those pages, but I can find that part out for myself..... About now I feel as if I should go pound my head on the wall, but the wall can't do what my head is doing better just now by itself..... Oh well.... |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Mar 1st, 2007, 6:12am Quote:
OK. Gator show me one documented case of suicide due solely to CH. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:45am The problem on this thread is NOT whether CH can lead to suicide. The problem on this thread is that everyone has a slightly different perspective, and that everyone believes their perspective is the correct one. "I'm right, you're wrong, he's wrong, she's wrong." It's ego, plain and simple. Let me be the first to say, "I'm wrong. The rest of you are right." Done. It's just not worth getting my knickers in a knot anymore. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Melissa on Mar 1st, 2007, 8:15am on 02/28/07 at 22:09:17, chewy wrote:
Yeah, that's why in 2000, just before I found this website, I was having a CH attack and was in so much pain, grief and agony, that while doing my ritual of a hot shower/bath, I had thoughts of just slipping underneath the water and drowning myself. I had no other problems, NONE, that would make me want to do away with myself other than the fact I was in severe pain, I did not know what was wrong with me or how to stop it, all I knew was that I was in misery and wanted a way OUT. FUCK THOSE who think they know everything there is to know about what others are thinking or feeling. We as humans will never know what it is like to be in another persons mind, no matter how much of a big egotistical head we have. SUICIDE is NEVER soley due to 1 problem, never, but a combination of things. Mine was I was in pain and didn't know how to treat it. Wow, gee! THERE'S a combination for ya! ::) Edited for grammer |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by burnt-toast on Mar 1st, 2007, 8:17am A shipwreck survivor washed up on a small, uninhabited island. He prayed feverishly for someone to rescue him, and every day scanned the horizon for rescue. Days became weeks and the man eventually managed to build a little hut and small dependable fire with the few pieces of driftwood he found on the small island. In the confines of his little sanctuary he regained a sense of comfort and relief, yet frustration and loneliness remained his constant and only companions. One day after searching for food, he returned to find his little hut in flames. Watching his sanctuary consumed by fire paralyzed him with grief and anger. The worst had happened; all was lost. He cried out, “God how could you do this to me!” and collapsed in exhaustion on the lonely beach. Early the next day, he awoke to the unfamiliar sounds of human voices. “How did you find this desolate place?” he asked of the people standing over him. “We saw your smoke signal, and came to rescue you” they replied. We often conceal and manage our suffering in the confines of sanctuaries we build for ourselves. Their destruction may come at the hand of God helping us signal rescuers when suffering becomes too great. Or maybe at the hands of individuals breaking down barriers placed between themselves and rescue when things appear most hopeless. Regardless, it is important that others recognize the smoke signals and provide rescue without judgment. Reaching out is an act of faith. Never discourage someone from reaching out when pain and despair become overwhelming. Belief that someone is listening and willing to respond may be the only thing someone has left. Tom |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Gator on Mar 1st, 2007, 8:40am I knew you would take that fall back position. How convenient. I can't, just like you can't PROVE otherwise. Suicides happen every day. It's just not headline news unless the person had some celebrity going for him or her or the way they did it brought attention to it. Doctors certainly cannot run around stating, "My patient, XXXX, committed suicide because of XXXX." Still, I don't have to look any further than my own experiences and those posted here on this board to believe it can happen. Up until developing CH, I was a very upbeat, hard working, strong willed person with no history of depression and no history of suicidal tendencies. In my youth, I was very strong in the church, working in the choir and the children's ministries. I even spent a couple years as the Assistant Music Director for our church and led the congregation on the weekends our Director was away on National Guard duty. 13 years of military service, a little over 9 years of that as a law enforcement patrolman, trainer and supervisor (2 years of that on SWAT and 1 year on a Terrorism Counteraction Team), hardened me beyond the norm. Suicide was straight up not an option for me. If some other schmuck wanted to off himself, that just meant more air for me to breathe. The pain and associated depression of this condition brought me so low, that I had the pills in my shaking hand, ready to stop my pain forever. In the end I could not for the reasons I cited before, but, having been so close, I can easily see where someone could. What I don't get, despite your own brothers and sisters here telling you that they have been brought to the point of considering suicide because of CH and the associated depression and despite the fact that the doctors who treat this disease are the one who nicknamed it, is the complete and absolute belief that it can't happen. I can't believe you're so dense that you can't see the elephant in the living room. It has to be denial, maybe well meant in an odd sort of way, but denial none the less. I agree, suicide is not something we should dwell on, but it is a fact of life. The psychological aspects of this disorder deserve just as much discussion as the physical if we are to show people that it is possible to live with CH. Talking about suicide honestly in an open forum such as this will not make a person suicidal, but it may give someone who is the opportunity to look at it from a perspective outside their own painful experience and that just might save a life. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by artonio7 on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:06am on 03/01/07 at 08:40:56, Gator wrote:
....which is why I wonder if a psychologist dealing with depression or post traumatic stress disorder might be a wonderful speaker at RichCon. Has the schedule for the event been written in stone yet? with warm regards, Tony |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by dougW on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:18am Mike, Don, et al: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. William Cowper For an interesting read on this, try this link: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=630938 better yet, let's take it to a new thread. Doug |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:35am I'm sorry I got so worked up to the point of swearing. I still have my viewpoints and opinions (strongly obviously) on this subject. But regadless I am not pleased with myself about getting that worked up. Thanks all who calmly posted on this thread. Props to you really. My emotions prevented me from posting in an educated and well thought through manner. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Icey on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:39am Hello to all .. I don't post here often but doesn't mean to say I don't follow the threads , cause I do ! I do wanna say this tho . I know when my CH first started and I had times when I couldn't handle it , didn't know what was happening to me , didn't have any knowledge , no support groups no help from the Dr's as they didn't understand what the hell it was then YES I did think about suicide many times . I spent 6 weeks in hospital due to a massive OD and at that time I really DID wanna die .. so to me suicidal thoughts can be purely associated with CH |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Gator on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:58am on 03/01/07 at 09:18:16, dougW wrote:
Hey Doug. How you doing? That's a quote that can be applied here as well as anywhere else, but you're right, discussion of the premise itself probably belongs in another thread. It really doesn't matter if Don believes it or not. There is plenty of documentation in the medical literature that people who live with chronic pain syndromes have a higher rate of passive and active suicidal ideation. Denying it doesn't make it go away. It only makes it that much harder for people who are suffering to get help because of fear of ridicule. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by LadyElaine1 on Mar 1st, 2007, 10:37am You know my daughters boyfriend shot and killed himself not long ago. His Mother and Brothers and sisters were ashamed of the fact he did. In the newspaper it was written he died of natural causes. It is a hard thing on the people left behind to deal with. Thats one reason this is a touchy subject. The family members always wonder what could they have done. They live with guilt day after day. That may be why you don't see it in the newspaper much. The family doesn't want it told. I agree with Gator all the way! |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 1st, 2007, 10:37am these threads on suicide have the same relevance as driving by a horrible accident and feeling as though you derive a better undertanding of the dynamics of the internal combustion engine. scott |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Gator on Mar 1st, 2007, 11:36am I don't believe that, Scott. While I don't think wallowing in self pity serves anyone's best interest, I do think that as a minimum, a frank and open discussion once in a while allows people to see that they are not the only ones who have felt that way. Knowing that you are not alone can be a boost in and of itself. No one here is trying to explain the mysteries of the mind or the exact mechanism by which suicidal ideation is triggered. Just that it happens and there is someone to talk to about it if it happens to you. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Mar 1st, 2007, 11:59am Don, You amaze me sometimes... I often wonder if you're here *just* to stir the shit up, but I know better. You are so set in your ways that nobody anywhere is going to add to your body of knowledge. You don't believe that suicide is a CH-related problem, fine. You have been told, first-hand, that it is. You have seen some brothers here actually do it. You should know better. This is an idiotic debate. Stop being an ass, please. Like I said before, I think this topic is so touchy that it's hard to have a rational discussion about it here (in the open). That's sad. Obviously, it's something we should talk about. It was important enough that the 'Crisis Link' remains nailed to the top of the list here. Should we remove that Don? -Shawn |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by JeffB on Mar 1st, 2007, 12:11pm In all fairness, Shawn, shouldn't threads like this one be generated in the crisis link? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Peppermint on Mar 1st, 2007, 12:18pm You know... how many people went for a long, long time before being diagnosed with CH? How many are out there that have never been diagnosed and don't know what CH is, but are living/being tortured by it everyday? How many newbies/lurkers read here, and are reading this and thinking that they'll never express themselves about it? This community helps eachother learn about all things related to CH does it not? I am sorry. Just because you can't connect the dots doesn't mean the relationship isn't a palpable one. More than one person I know here has suffered a terrible depression due to the pain and resulting conditions of CH, to the point where the forbidden road to end it was mentioned more than once. That's not a diagnosis, but I'm speaking as a friend who listened. Sadly, I did lose a dear dear friend here this way. So I will never disregard it, or put it on the backburner, when I hear mention of it. God forbid anyone else here is ever in that place. I hope they can reach out, once, twice, or however many times it takes until they get the help they need. Pep |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Mar 1st, 2007, 12:37pm on 03/01/07 at 12:11:15, JeffB wrote:
Threads like this one would be generated by the crisis link, one would think. Is there some reason you are suggesting that all mentions of this topic be contained to one thread... why? DJ started a cluster headache site here. How can this be about cluster headaches if you can't discuss suicide at all? You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that people here have been brought to the brink of suicide in large part due to having CH. What part of that is hard to understand? I'm not here to convince anybody that CH = suicide, but you can't start segregating out any discussion of suicide and still call this an open discussion about CH, can you? -Fu |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by JeffB on Mar 1st, 2007, 12:53pm I'm not having "a hard time understanding" shit. Is this a cluster headache site or is it a suicide board? Frankly if I were a new person who was looking for help and read this dribble, I would exit as fast as I entered. For those who have thought about shit like that I suggest they seek help else where, where the support system is focused on that issue. Thats opinion, bro. Like it or not I could give a shit! ;) |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Lobster on Mar 1st, 2007, 12:55pm Lotsa good points, and most disagreements seem to be around distinctly different subjects. Let me attempt to break it down into a simple 'IF' matrix... If you are depressed and need a hand, and are even mentioning the awful word 'suicide', we will do what we normally do... support you. If you leave a 'goodbye world' or a 'going out with a bang' or a 'nice knowing you' type note, we will call the PD and a Suicide Prevention line and your family contacts. If you show intent to harm another as part of your suicide discussion, we will call the PD and a Suicide Prevention line and your family contacts. About the only variable, which debating will serve no purpose, is that each of us will come to a 'this person might be ready to act' decision at a different point. One point I see valid for debate is: We have a clear suicide thread. Should you reply to or PM the originator? As Sean wisely pointed out the other day, some folk are waiting for their audience to gather before they act. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by E-Double on Mar 1st, 2007, 1:05pm I'll try to put this in very loose terms. Those who know me know what I do for a living. My area of expertise is essentially how people learn. Why people do what they do and utilizing science to make functional and socially significant change in people's lives. We (all people and organisms for that matter) exhibit behavior that is basically maintained by 1) attention 2) escape/avoidance 3) automatically reinforced beahvior or Self Stimulation 4) tangible 5)communication That being said..... Think about what it is that we all go through. We use meds to escape and avoid pain.....preventatives and abortives. What happens when nothing works anymore???? Think about it!!!! It is not drivel or crap being spewed. It is also not fact that we all have contemplated. It is fact that there is pain! There does not have to be underlying issues for someone to contemplate or even attempt what we discuss. When some go through such pain they can develop psychological problems such as anxiety, depression and other disorders which can lead to the failure to lead a functional life which in turn can exaserbate the problem. It does exist. CH isn't the cause but it is or can be a variable. E |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Mar 1st, 2007, 1:13pm Lobster , seen and duly noted your post. I didn't know there was any particular place for these questions. I am not sure if you think I am gathering a crowd for a event, but if so that isn't going to be any event... Right now I'ld like to go for a motorbike ride, and maybe if it snows like they say tonight I will kill myself over the snow..... Thats a joke.... here is the smiley as proof ;;D It is true I unwittingly opened one hell of a bucket of worms. I did, and so I must live with it. When out of phase I don't exactly fit in any pigon hole, and when in my little phase I don't seem to do anything like what ever any normal person woild do. It is pretty debatalbe as to what a normal person is though.... I admitt poor typing, to many typos, being dylexic which don't help, and a whole string for things that make me me. I have said it elsewhere "Thinking isn't one of my specialties" I can wish ::) I said in the very first post in my not so smart way that I once had no clue as tio what was wrong with me, on 04. No doc,s none of you were evn a blip on my horizon, and after 8 bloody weeks I dodn't know anything but one thing, and wicked poundin in my brain. That was unacceptable as any sort of option I planned to live and deal with alone, and not understanding. I never said I was the brightest bulb in the shed anywhere. I have no intent to be seen as reaming you out as I am not.. I am confuses as to whether or not I myself am now being accused of creating a gathering though, and that idea is somewhat upsetting me.... On one hand I am happy some folks got a few ideas off their minds, and at the same time somewhat depressed at what i have caused myself alone... It is true I could have let the dust settle, but then I may have forgotten the entire point. In no way did I intend to offend anyone, but I sure have there is no doubt in my mind the message is loud and clear. Me Mac has used the nearly unthinkable word suicide... man I wish the ice was gone so I could get the bike out.... |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Mar 1st, 2007, 1:25pm on 03/01/07 at 12:53:56, JeffB wrote:
You nailed it Jeff, this is *all* opinion. I don't think anybody should begrudge another for posting their opinion. As long as we are allowed to debate, that's cool. And, when I said 'what part of that is hard to understand', I know it came out as if I meant it at you directly, when I really didn't. It was another generalization, sorry. All I'm saying is, this is part of the road for a lot of the folks here. If it's a taboo subject, and posts have to be limited to a certain thread, or not at all, DJ should say so and it should be part of the welcome page so people know. Until then, I don't see why it should be any different than all of the other topics we choose to discuss, and I haven't seen rules anywhere that tell me what to I am not allowed to talk about. Isn't it just hilarious how the subject of 'how this board should be run' comes up so often for debate, like it's some kind of democracy? No matter what anybody here thinks (including me) DJ can run it any way he chooses, and we can only vote with our feet. The fact that a lot of us stick around for years and years means we apparently like what he is doing and how he runs it. Tell me I'm wrong. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by JeffB on Mar 1st, 2007, 1:27pm on 03/01/07 at 12:55:20, Lobster wrote:
I think this may be too much for a message board. So if a person who is having a really, really bad day decides to type something in regards to ending it, we start calling police departments and help lines? I know I have only been here less than three years, but I haven't come across too much suicide talk till now. Maybe because it caused such a hooplah and garnered a bunch of attention with Dave's post, but I don't think personaly that I'm qualified to judge someones thoughts to start alerting the world to that persons problems. jmo. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Mar 1st, 2007, 1:34pm I suppose my biggest concern is if someone is having suicidal thought's, regardless if it's about CH or cheese whiz.... What IF What IF they were to click on this thread...... I know if i was suicidal right now (which I am totally not) and had NO - ONE and came here in search of support, I don't care if CH were to be the only issue or not, but came here and read all this, would it help their suicidal thoughs? Yes this is a CH message board, but there should be compassion for other issues too. Cause I know CH doesn't define me, and CH shouldn't define the ppl we are in this community/family. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by wildhaus on Mar 1st, 2007, 1:50pm Its is not from grate impotents, what I think or feel about this thread and its contents. Or Whether CH is a major reason or the solemn reason for one to take the “easy way” or what ever name we give it – namely suicide….. What is important for me and most disturbing is the inability to have a mature discussion with a wide range of opinions and emotions, and still being able to listen and respect the opinion of the other even though we do not see it the same way……. It is a “house” for all of us, with the same right to all……. like it or not! I just beg you all; do use a respectful and clean language. Michael |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Mar 1st, 2007, 2:08pm Interesting study material, from 1996: Chronic pain and suicide (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1380602&pageindex=1) I thought it was interesting that people with chronic pain were twice as likely to complete the act of suicide. We have a responsibility to freak out when someone here talks about it as an option. Call them, call the PD if we must, etc. The fact that Dave can use us like puppets every 6 months is of no consequence, really. We still need to behave like compassionate humans. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Rats on Mar 1st, 2007, 2:13pm I don't like the idea that clusters are called suicide headaches--in this day of there being as many malpractice attorneys advertising in the phonebook as there are Drs, I don't think it helps at all for CH to be stuck with such a misleading, hopeless sounding nick-name. I have had more than my share of Drs tell me flat out that they won't treat me because they don't know of any "cure". I wish that these Drs understood that we know theres no cure and that we don't expect miracles--just a little help, understanding and willingness to learn as much as there is to know about this thing. Since I have a sister who committed suicide I think I am highly qualified to state, in no uncertain terms, that suicide sucks. I hate the word, the thought, and all discussion of it. Having said that, I also think that it's important that the subject not be kept hidden away and/or ignored. If someone had taken my sister seriously when she told them she was going to do it and had alerterd my family or the PD, maybe she would be alive. Thinking about it and talking about it tear me up, but it's just another facet of my life that I have to try to deal with, just like CH. I think that people who have never had a suicidal thought or knew a person who has committed suicide are very blessed and I totally respect that those people might not want to talk about such an unpleasant subject. But I also know there are many many people like me out there that have had to struggle with the subject and they feel that it is important to talk about it if for no other reason than to maybe someday help someone else. Peace to all, R |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Lobster on Mar 1st, 2007, 2:24pm on 03/01/07 at 14:08:06, fubar wrote:
Fu wins the thread. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by purpleydog on Mar 1st, 2007, 2:40pm on 02/28/07 at 23:10:10, Gator wrote:
Don. You've already posted many times that you think the fact that suicide caused from CH is bullshit. And you've "met" hundreds of people from this board, and they are all still here. After making a statement about what you think of suicide and CH, tell me, how many of those people that you have met have ever confided in you about their true thoughts, and that they were so down from CH, the pain, the depression, and not being able to cope with it anymore, that they were tired of it all, and were thinking of checking out? Has anyone? After all the hard ass bullshit you post about it, and the garbage you spew about it, I bet the number is ZERO. It is posts like yours that make people feel ridiculed about having feelings that are perfectly normal in relationship to our condition. In other words, these people will probably not be likely to ask for help, if it comes down to the bottom line, where quite a few of us have been. Because of yours, and others posts. Tara, don't apologize for your anger in posting. You came across perfectly clear to me, and others I'm sure. Lot's of posters say lots worse. This is a great thread. Talking about suicide doesn't mean anyone is going to do it. We are discussing it. Thinking about it is a fact of life for us CH'ers. Whether we are thinking about it, and in doing so, realize it is not, and never will be an option for us. Or being in a cycle so far, and not being able to deal with it, that we think about it, and maybe it could be an option. Not discussing this, and trying to say it belongs on a suicide board, or another type of discussion board is also a form of denial. Why not discuss it here? How many new people have come here, and literally said CH.com saved their lives? Wrokk, you are right on. We are here to suppport anyone who needs it. And if it is serious enough, we WILL call the local PD, and try to contact family members. It has been done in the past, and I'm sure it will happen again. If this topic is uncomfortable for you, that's ok. But don't put anyone down about what they say, or feel, because YOUR comfort level has been reached. You may learn something. And anyone who does need help, and asks for it will feel they can do that, and not worry about being ridiculed by a couple/ few people on this board who can't deal with it, and therefore have to put down others to make themselves feel better. Let the flames begin. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Mar 1st, 2007, 4:33pm Quote:
Not conveniant Gator. Fact. Show me one documented case. You cant. Quote:
Really Fubar? By who? Certainly no one with first hand knowledge Purpleydog your not worth a response in my book. Quote:
Perfectly sums it up. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by purpleydog on Mar 1st, 2007, 4:49pm Quote:
Looks like I just got one. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Charlie on Mar 1st, 2007, 4:51pm My take is that "suicide headaches" as a description is probably handy. When we call them clusters, only a few MDs and clusterheads gets it. At least people do a doubletake when suicide is mentioned. I thought I had some kind of tumor when I got my first hit and being terrified of prolonged pain, suicide crossed my mind but only that. I don't know if I could do it anyway. We've had two suicides in our family. One caused by insanity from a physical disorder and 11 years ago, my 46 year old cousin who was bi-polar. We found a house full of prescribed untried anti-depressants....not that much helps that kind of depression. Her somewhat emotionally fragile brother didn't need this and I tell him to be pissed off rather that beating himself. It's not a bad thread. It's mostly interesting and I suspect visitors will look around the site to see if we are really this morbid. They'll find that besides being pretty far around the bend, we have some damned good ideas. We try anyway. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/chemist.gif Charlie |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Mar 1st, 2007, 4:53pm on 03/01/07 at 16:49:19, purpleydog wrote:
Funny how we can get roped into the crap that they spew huh chris? I am not normally one to post swears and uneducated sounding posts, but somehow someway I spewed some crap in response to some ignorant posts on this thread........... Yeah it's an emotional topic but also if a person has an ounce of sentimantality or heart at all.... they would see how they should not be so crass. To a few .. and I mean few this is fun........ but in real life to real feeling humans its REAL. It's life and death and emotions,.... this is real. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Mar 1st, 2007, 6:00pm on 03/01/07 at 16:33:46, chewy wrote:
You can read, Don. I don't have to point out the numerous people on this board who have expressed (first-hand) their own battle with destructive thoughts. Isn't that enough. Are you here merely to be thick-headed? Do you just put it down as theatrics? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Gator on Mar 1st, 2007, 6:44pm on 03/01/07 at 16:33:46, chewy wrote:
FLASH! All past, current and future research that says people who suffer from chronic pain syndromes are more prone to suicide have been deemed null and void by the eminent neurologist and psychiatrist Don. All public and private discussion of the subject is hereby banned. Whatever. Like I said, just because you don't believe it doesn't make it false. Now if you're done here, I'm sure there are some handicapped kids somewhere that haven't been picked on today. ::) |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by BB on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:09pm From a supporters point of view, this is what I understand, correct me please if I am wrong: 1- Almost all CHers while going through a bad kip say a 9 or a 10, would think of something in the line of " I cant take this anymore, stop this any way " or maybe even " I'd rather die than continue" ... But then when the attack is gone and the pain subsides, the thought is no longer as serious. 2- CH by itself, if the person is well supported and the condition is reasonably controlled by whatever meds/methods, then suicide is not a serious consideration at all. 3- CH coupled with other conditions and/or problems such as relationship problems, clinical depression, anxiety disorders, financial difficulties etc. then the whole thing becomes too much and thoughts of suicide come to the forefront as a serious option. Therefore there is really truth to both sides of the arguments and thats why we will NEVER be able to agree on one thing, because its not that simple that there is only one answer. The key factor I believe is your ability to cope. If you can still cope, no matter what you have, CH or depression or chronic pain or whatever or even all of them together, then you wont be thinking seriously of suicide. But if you cant cope, then having a few things going wrong all at once such as depression coupled with CH may tip you over. Coping ability varies. It varies from one person to another, and it varies within the same person from time to time. No one can be sure of how much he/she can cope with until the challlenge presents itself. We shouldnt judge another persons ability to cope either because it can vary so much. This is where love and compassion come in. When our friend is coping well with whatever he/she is experiencing, we stand by and cheer and give them a pat on the back. When our friend starts to struggle and can no longer cope, we move in and give a shoulder to bear the weight, willingly and happily, no judgement passed and no question asked. Love and compassion dont need a reason, they are just there to be given. We can discuss/argue until the cows come home on who is right and who is wrong and we will not get anywhere. History has proven that. I just hope that at the end of the day, whoever of us here is not coping, will get the assistance, support and care needed without getting judged as to whether or not they are worthy of that assistance. Painfree wishes to you all. Annette |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:16pm on 03/01/07 at 19:09:59, BB wrote:
That is the best line in this thread by far!! Thanks, Annette :-* |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Cathi04 on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:17pm NONE of this has anything to do with creating a positive thread which deals with a devastating part of CH! There is soo much good information in this thread, but those who wish to turn it into a pissing match are diluting it to a point of uselessness! SUICIDE IS AN ISSUE WITH CH SUFFERERS- it is contemplated, attempted, and, at times, the attemptee succeeds. Simple. The question is, do we hide this fact? No, that's like hiding a deformed child in a closet to live......or veiling the facts of the Holocaust- out if sight, out of mind..... I prefer it be out in the open, so people are aware of the risk of suicide, and can be on the alert. Taraann is speaking from her heart! Fu is coming from experience..........why would you question what someone has felt-so intimately? There is a lot of positive in this thread, and some just may need to know- in a broader sense-so let them read, and help them- isn't this a group that helps each other?? If this thread causes ONE person to think about life over death....well, then, you've helped! Cathi |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Dave_Emond on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:18pm Quote:
1. I guess if Jonny says something ... it becomes fact? Then intelligent people just go with it? So Jonny, again I ask you for you to back up your "facts." You haven't replied before whenever I questioned you about your so called facts. Ya know what, I don't even care. Play "king" whilst your little "jester" Chewy follows in ignorance and even higher arrogance. 2. Yeah, I'm alive. I probably wouldn't have been had I not signed off when I did. Had I stayed on long enough to see my phone # and that the PD were called posted on the boards ... think I would have been here? Not too bright! Be careful what you post. 3. Maybe subconsciously I was looking for reason why I shouldn't go through with it. Many would calm me down, and convinced me not to harm anyone else. It became then just me and what I'd do. At times as I'd start to relax, some ass would come on and antagonize the problem just making me angry and losing rationale. 4. Saying "Think of your family and friends and how you'll hurt them ..." said once is enough! Repeated over and over again can make one start to think well screw me, screw it if I'm suffering and have a problem ... I should forget it all so I don't hurt anyones feelings ... problem solved! So anyway, I was taken into custody and spent 4 days in psyche ward across the state. They will drug you up until you're walking around with the rest of the living dead. Forget your rights or dignity. Would I ever come to this board again if I had the same crisis? Not a chance. Sorry Jonny and Chewy about the "drama" you had to deal with (or I should say chose to) and I'm still alive and plan to stay that way. To all the others who lent their support, thank you. Didn't think I'd post to CH.com anymore, but I think it's important that many think about the way you deal with someone in serious crisis. Even spite could push someone over the edge. So, as I can, I'll try to stay in touch with as many of you as I can via e-mail. It was nice being a part of this family and just for a little added drama ... I'll pack my bags and my problems and move on. I'll live and seek health back in my roots through my God. Goodbye and God Bless ya All, Dave |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:24pm on 03/01/07 at 19:18:22, Dave_Emond wrote:
Yeah right! As the stomach turns!! |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Melissa on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:26pm on 03/01/07 at 19:09:59, BB wrote:
I believe THIS is one of the best lines in this thread. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by JeffB on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:30pm I hope they get the assistance they need too. Like a help line. Sending a board full of people into a panic just isn't right to me. IMHO. Just to add, sorry. This is an angry guy with a lot of issues other than just ch. He doesn't need a pat on the back or a "keep your chin up". He needs professional help. 4 days being drugged up seemed to make him worse. If thats the only treatment he got and gets, then he is in a very different kind of vicious cycle in his personal life. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:38pm on 03/01/07 at 19:18:22, Dave_Emond wrote:
dave I'm so glad u r still around... even if it's not around on ch.com...**edited this line so I don't get dogged**............... I so hope u got my email with my phone # I have been where u are or atleast similar... i did not have the so called "luxury" of having someone to talk to when it came to that deeeeeeepppp dark hole that is beyond depression ... and it would have been great I think to have someone to talk to .. it would have put things in a different perspective I think... Obviously I had zero choice but to post this publicly. and I don't give my ## out freely ... but this is a serious and personal issue...and dave is a friend ... and fellow sufferer and well a human being!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know him well enough at all, BUT I would love to hear him vent rather than dog him on this website for venting his frustrations. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by JeffB on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:44pm If that's the kind of connection you would like to have with him, go for it, I would never "dog" you for that. I hope you can be as tough as you are kind. ;) |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Cathi04 on Mar 1st, 2007, 7:45pm Dave, Thank you for letting us know you are safe. You have a lot of people here who care about you well-being. Wishing you PF and peace, Cathi |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Mar 1st, 2007, 8:46pm No matter what, Dave is a person who deserves as much help as he will accept. I am glad to see that he is alive. I'm not surprised to see he is bitter though. All I can say in our defense is, if you don't want to see drama about your attempted or planned suicide/murder, don't post about it on an internet web site. Once you let that cat out of the bag, everything that happens afterward is of your own making. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Jonny on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:04pm on 03/01/07 at 20:46:52, fubar wrote:
Check and mate......end of thread!! |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by taraann on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:06pm on 03/01/07 at 21:04:35, Jonny wrote:
and the king has spoken ........... crap |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:07pm Quote:
No, but having suicidal thoughts doesn't complete the equation to be deemed suicidal. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Redd on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:13pm on 03/01/07 at 21:07:56, chewy wrote:
So glad you are qualified to re-define the criteria of what constitutes "suicidal" Don. Maybe you should present your research and thesis to the Board that determins DSM diagnosic criteria. I'm sure they would would be interested in your imperical data and revise the manual once again just for your benefit. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:14pm Quote:
Hey genius. Just read the DSM IV. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Redd on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:18pm I have...I even have purchased a copy. I had to for my course in Abnormal Psychology. You may be interested in the section on Borderline Personality Disorder. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:28pm Wow. One whole course. Now that you bought it. Read it. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:33pm For us cavemen, what's a DSM? |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:39pm Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The psychiatric bible for diagosing. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by E-Double on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:39pm on 03/01/07 at 21:33:48, Brewcrew wrote:
Diagnostic & Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(IV TR) http://re3.mm-a7.yimg.com/image/3825413982 |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:41pm Unless your a caveman. Then its the Dinosaur Sure good Meat |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Brewcrew on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:51pm Hey, in my little caveman corner of the world, DSM is the airport identifier for Des Moines. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Redd on Mar 1st, 2007, 9:56pm on 03/01/07 at 21:28:36, chewy wrote:
Read it, and actually acheived 100% accuracy in diagnosis on a clinical scale when tested. Your chalenge means nothing to anyone but yourself Don. Over and out. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Mar 1st, 2007, 10:11pm on 03/01/07 at 21:07:56, chewy wrote:
So, does one need a doctor's note to prove they're suicidal before they are allowed to post about it? WTF are you trying to say, Don? Nevermind... trying to reason with you is making me suicidal. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by chewy on Mar 1st, 2007, 10:17pm Quote:
Sorry that thread is already taken. You'll have to start a new one Or call Red. She took a course. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by andrewjb on Mar 1st, 2007, 10:33pm :).the threat of suicide, is a call for help ? the reason, for suicide, is the last choice of the suicide-ee, no ? talk is good, as may well have just been proven. |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Charlie on Mar 1st, 2007, 10:55pm Awright Dammit. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/slap.gif http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/punish.gif http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/gray slap.gif Charlie |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by BarbaraD on Mar 2nd, 2007, 7:57am Ok, time for my opinion again!!! :D Have I ever thought of suicide -- YES. Did I post on the MB that I was going to do it -- NO - it was personal. Did I plan it out - YES. Did I go thru with it - guess not since I'm still here. Sometimes the pain of these HA's gets so bad that you think that's the only way out of it. We're not thinking well with the depression and pain hitting on us, so suicide does come into our thoughts. Most of us don't act on it, but that doesn't mean we don't think about it. Have I ever known personally someone who did take that way out. YES - a doctor in Gladewater - he'd tried almost everything and the pain just got to him to the point he couldn't take any more. I talked to him a few days before he did it and had no idea he was contemplating it. And my 15 year old neice took this way out - to this day no one knows why. She was happily talking to her boyfriend a few minutes before she used the gun. It's IS hard on the ones left behind. You second guess everything -- if I'd done this or that, but it's too late then. Should suicide be discussed -- I think YES it should. But those coming on this board and "threatening" to get attention -- call the PD and let them handle it. It may be a cry for help, but we're not qualified to deal with it. And now you have my opinion..... ;;D Hugs BD |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by BB on Mar 2nd, 2007, 9:05am Sadly it looked like the professionals have failed us all again. 4 days in a psych ward drugged up was not what I would be hoping/expecting for someone like Dave. I sincerely hope that he has decent follow up care. All of our hard work and heart ache .... :( Annette |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Rats on Mar 2nd, 2007, 9:14am on 03/02/07 at 09:05:47, BB wrote:
From your lips to God's ear........... |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Mar 2nd, 2007, 9:35am This is an example of the type of reply I was seeking, but from everyone. There are some other wise posts as well. I wasn't seeking the pissing thread. I am guilty of jumpin on the key board to fast, no doubt. But I am not as guilty for harsh words I didn't compose. ..................... Lobster, on page 3 you made a post which confused me. I posted back with just one other poster between your post and mine. Are you accusing me of planning my own sucide, and collecting a gathering here to preform it? This is a simple question, that could be answered with a yes , or no. In any case I have no such idea running in my head if it matters to anyone, although it is snowing here, and that is depressing since I wanted to go ride my bike! ::) ................................ Since I mod a biker board, I got a hard head and thick hide. You don't have to be all that bright to mod a board like that fortunatley, but you do have to have a thick hide. So I haven't taken any offence to any of this. I wanted to know about the thoughts and reasons of others, and I sorta hope this won't run 11 pages plus.... on 03/01/07 at 19:09:59, BB wrote:
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Lobster on Mar 2nd, 2007, 9:45am on 03/02/07 at 09:35:08, Mac_Muz wrote:
no no no... though I can now see how the phrasing could give one that impression. purely hypothetical, mate! |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by fubar on Mar 2nd, 2007, 11:42am on 03/02/07 at 09:05:47, BB wrote:
Annette, Don't be silly. Nothing was done in vain. If we had sat here at ignored an obvious suicide/murder threat (let's call it what it was), we would be criminally negligent, in my opinion. The fact that Dave was not able to carry out either threat is good. Maybe, in his world, not getting a response from this board would have been the justification to carry out the threat. Sick minds do sick things. Now, he is not in custody anymore, and he moves on the the next page. If something bad happens, we did what we could do. You have to be satisfied with that. -Fu |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by Mac_Muz on Mar 2nd, 2007, 12:35pm Good! I am used to gettting my ass kicked. It takes my mind off my friggin head... Nice to see we can be on the same page. Thanks for the replies....mac on 03/02/07 at 09:45:00, Lobster wrote:
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by deltadarlin on Mar 2nd, 2007, 4:41pm It's very difficult to have a rational conversation about something that most people consider to be an irrational act. That being said, I don't think most (well maybe some would) would have a problem with another member who posts that are grappling with *thinking* about suicide and asking for help. BUT, when someone *threatens* to commit suicide, then that's a whole 'nuther story. I spent 6 years on a board (as an admin in the later years) that dealt with people who had emotional/mental issues. Suicide posts were not allowed and were removed immediately for one major reason-THE PEOPLE READING THAT NOTE (IN THE MAJORITY OF THE CASES) HAD NO POWER WHATSOEVER TO ASSIST OR CHANGE ANYTHING THAT WAS GOING ON |
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Title: Re: Posts concerning suicide, just thoughts Post by deltadarlin on Mar 2nd, 2007, 5:01pm It's very difficult to have a rational conversation about something that most people consider to be an irrational act. That being said, I don't think most (well maybe some would) would have a problem with another member who posts that are grappling with *thinking* about suicide and asking for help, or even just talking about the subject. BUT, when someone *threatens* to commit suicide, then that's a whole 'nuther story. I spent 6 years on a web board (as an admin in the later years) that dealt with people who had emotional/mental issues. Suicide posts were not allowed and were removed immediately for one major reason-THE PEOPLE READING THAT POST (IN THE MAJORITY OF THE CASES) HAD NO POWER WHATSOEVER TO ASSIST OR CHANGE ANYTHING THAT WAS GOING ON. All a post like that would do would be to create havoc because people would feel helpless. I, myself have spent hours upon hours on IM with people that, at the time, presented as a danger to themselves (or so I thought. The majority of those I talked to were actually doing it for attention. If I hadn't been around to observe some of the earlier *bouts* with Dave, I'd probably have been upset when I read his post, BUT, given that it was pretty much the same thing as before, I didn't see it as a suicide threat, but as something to get attention and it made me angry because I knew the mayhem that was going to erupt on this board. BB, We can't know whether the system ahs failed him or not. In *this* state, you can only be held for 72 hours before they have to go through a formal commitment process. Given that he was cut loose, I'm guessing that he wasn't considered to be in imminent danger, to himself or anyone else. I truly hope dave gets the help he needs, because he is clearly a troubled and lost soul. |
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