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        New Message Board Archives >> 2006 General Board Posts >> Is this not wrong?
        
(Message started by: alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 10:12am)
Title: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 10:12am
A truckload of illegals running from border patrol flipped over. there are twelve of them in hospitals here in Az. One hospital said they're bill alone was going to be over a million dollars, but not to worry they get paid by a 50 million grant to Az to pay for treating illegals. i was born here have worked my whole life here and will be paying for years on my last trips to the hospital. to me this just seems wrong. People breaking the law getting free medical.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by echo on Oct 19th, 2006, 10:34am
I agree that it's just wrong to have AZ cover charges for someone who shouldn't have been there to begin with.

Too bad they can't strap them to a gurney, add 2 hours of life support meds and equipment and roll them over the border.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by vig on Oct 19th, 2006, 10:38am
fix Mexico...
[smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:16am
That is really a shame that someone who is not even supposed to be here gets more pubic/social service than you do.  
:-/

And to think, there may have been citizens in need of medical attention and had to wait because they were busy taking care of illegal aliens.  Such a shame.

B$
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:21am

on 10/19/06 at 11:16:26, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
 
:-/

And to think, there may have been citizens in need of medical attention and had to wait because they were busy taking care of illegal aliens.  Such a shame.

B$


thats it exactly, citizens are getting screwed while illigals are riding for free
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Richr8 on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:29am
Learn Spanish and buy a truck. Complaining about it is about as much good as trying to piss up a rope.

It's bad enough suffering with this crap and not being able to get, or afford, the type of care that you need, but when you hear stories like that, dang!  

BTW-Way wrong!
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:38am
What is wrong about it? Hospitals are required to provide emergency care regardless of residence.  Given the rates they charge ($50,000 or more for a day or two in critical care), a million dollars for 12 people is not surprising.

Ready to get embedded with a microchip carrying your national ID?  Then they could tell if the unconcious, bleeding person was a citizen or not.


Quote:
(30) And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
(31) And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
(32) And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
(33) But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
(34) And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
(35) And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
(36) Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
(37) And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by JeffB on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:44am
They should have uprighted the truck and drove back across the border and let Mexico deal with them.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by maffumatt on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:45am

on 10/19/06 at 11:38:19, floridian wrote:
What is wrong about it?

We end up paying higher hospital bills or the hospitals go bankrupt.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Richr8 on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:45am
The only thing I see wrong about it, is that many of th e folks suffering here, citizens, can't get the help they need.  And oh yes, I understand all of the social and political reasons why not.  It's still sad and frustrating.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:53am

on 10/19/06 at 11:45:03, maffumatt wrote:
We end up paying higher hospital bills or the hospitals go bankrupt.


Yes, but do you really think that if all the illegals suddenly went back to their homelands and never visited a hospital again that healthcare premiums would go down?  This isn't the reason that hospitals are closing down.

Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by nani on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:57am
It's really just a short term problem. The corporations are going to solve the immigration issue eventually. The way outsourcing is going, Americans will soon be forced to work for about $1.00 an hour just to have a job. We won't have too many Mexicans fleeing here for economic opportunites anymore.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by thomas on Oct 19th, 2006, 11:59am

on 10/19/06 at 11:57:46, nani wrote:
The way outsourcing is going, Americans will soon be forced to work for about $1.00 an hour just to have a job.  


So very true.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 12:03pm

on 10/19/06 at 11:38:19, floridian wrote:
What is wrong about it?


whats wrong is that american citizens are refused health care or go broke getting it, and illegals breaking numerous laws get it for free while were paying for it in our taxes. so basically americans get billed twice.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 19th, 2006, 12:14pm

on 10/19/06 at 12:03:13, alchemy wrote:
whats wrong is that american citizens are refused health care or go broke getting it, and illegals breaking numerous laws get it for free while were paying for it in our taxes. so basically americans get billed twice.


No, all emergency rooms are required to provide life-saving measures to all people, no questions asked about their immigration status - Americans, Mexicans, Eskimos from Latvia, etc.  A person with blood spouting out their arm WILL get treated.

The fact that not all Americans get treated for non-life-threatening conditions is a completely different issue that people seem to be confused about.  Illegal immigrants with high blood pressure dont' get free treatment. They have to wait until they get a stroke for that, just like the rest of uninsured Americans.

Lets see - uninsured illegals vs. Walmart employees that are on taxpayer funded health plans ... which costs you more?  Walmart!!!  

PS - I guess you didn't get the note - Habeas Corpus has been suspended.  Americans are now subjects, not citizens.

Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 12:22pm
great point Flo, the difference is we may get treated for life threatening situations but we have to pay for it to the hospital over time in payments. illegals don't pay anything
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by jimmers on Oct 19th, 2006, 12:25pm
Spin Doctor?

Jimmers
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 19th, 2006, 12:28pm

on 10/19/06 at 12:22:48, alchemy wrote:
great point Flo, the difference is we may get treated for life threatening situations but we have to pay for it to the hospital over time in payments. illegals don't pay anything


True, but neither do the poor. And people who get certain diseases (hydrocephalus, premature birth, muscular dystrophy, etc) will take far more from the system than they (and their family) could ever pay into it.  Insurance involves spreading the risks or costs among a community. It isnt like a bank account where what I put in is mine.  
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 12:54pm
i think that the 50 million would be better spent on our poor rather than Mexicos. i say send Mexico the bill for the people fleeing they're country cause it sucks so bad there
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 19th, 2006, 1:09pm
Sure send Mexico the bill.  It's a poor, corrupt country with an excess of machismo pride, but they could use a laugh.

What about the Gringos that break the law and give them a job that is very well paying by Mexican standards?  That's the reason they come here.  I can't imagine many people would risk their life crossing the desert on foot to visit North Carolina, just so they could tell people they saw it.  ;)
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by maffumatt on Oct 19th, 2006, 1:18pm
I think they should get fined the first time, jail the second time for hiring illegals.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:08pm
The part that kills me, Flo, is that you don't see anything wrong with it. Apparently the cynicism has begun to saturate at the cellular level.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:28pm
everyone just accepts the fact that this is alright. when did we get to vote on the feds creating an account for this.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:35pm

on 10/19/06 at 17:28:29, alchemy wrote:
everyone just accepts the fact that this is alright. when did we get to vote on the feds creating an account for this.

We could vote on it if this were a pure democracy, but it's not. We live in a constitutional, representative republic. That's why who we vote for is so important. They're the ones voting on this shit on our behalf.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Jonny on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:48pm

on 10/19/06 at 11:53:31, floridian wrote:
Yes, but do you really think that if all the illegals suddenly went back to their homelands and never visited a hospital again that healthcare premiums would go down?  This isn't the reason that hospitals are closing down.


"The influx of illegal aliens has serious hidden medical consequences," writes Madeleine Pelner Cosman, author of the report. "We judge reality primarily by what we see. But what we do not see can be more dangerous, more expensive, and more deadly than what is seen."

According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275

Hi Flo  [smiley=wave.gif]
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:58pm
great article Jonny
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 19th, 2006, 6:15pm

on 10/19/06 at 17:08:05, brewcrew wrote:
The part that kills me, Flo, is that you don't see anything wrong with it. Apparently the cynicism has begun to saturate at the cellular level.


Yeah, maybe I am cynical because I don't think our health care problems are due to 12 Mexicans falling off a truck.

Not saying that they didn't break the law and shouldn't be sent back, just that they are human beings and should be treated accordingly.  Stripping them of the right to emergency treatment might make some feel better.

The attempt to focus anger and outrage on the illegals diverts attention from the real problem.  If the immigration issue was solved overnight and the immigrants all dissappeared or magically flew home, there would still be thousands of people in the U.S. that read this board and lack adequate health care.  That is the real outrage.  
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 19th, 2006, 6:57pm

on 10/19/06 at 17:48:28, Jonny wrote:
"The influx of illegal aliens has serious hidden medical consequences," writes Madeleine Pelner Cosman, author of the report. "We judge reality primarily by what we see. But what we do not see can be more dangerous, more expensive, and more deadly than what is seen."

According to her study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275

Hi Flo  [smiley=wave.gif]


Hi, Jonny, nice political hack-piece. Anyone with a Ph.D. that goes by the title 'Ph.D. Esq.' should have their judgement questioned, as is true in the case of Madeline Cosman, Ph.D. Esq.   If you have a doctorate, the Medieval title of 'esquire' is superfluous and pompous.  Oh, wait, Cosman is a Medieval Scholar and is mostly famous for a book on Medieval vocabulary.

I noticed that the 'article' is not peer-reviewed science.  So while WorldNetDaily can call it a 'study', it really doesn't rise much higher than an Ann Coulter diatribe that a conservative journal included for discussion. Of course, WorldNetDaily is not known for objective or accurate reporting when there is political hay to be made.

And this 'study' appears in the journal next to an article about how abortion dramatically increases the risk of a woman getting cancer (written by Andrew Schlafly, Esq.).  So we have a rag that publishes junk science written by the son of Phyllis Schlafly, who thinks he is more important and authoritative by adding Esq. after his name.  Another gem in that issue: "Stories From The Frontlines: No, I Won't Help You Get An Abortion."   And for some reason, this 'medical' journal published a review of a book on the life of Phyllis Schlafly, where "Donald T. Critchlow sheds new light on Schlafly's life and on the unappreciated role her grassroots activism played in transforming America's political landscape."

Cosman Ph.D. Esq. etc. was also a leader for 'saving' Terry Schiavo, and wrote an excellent article about how any one that doesnt' agree with her is part of the 'culture of death.'  Which apparently includes evil people that want to accept the fact that a family member is brain dead, but doesnt' extend to Good Americans that want to let Mexicans bleed to death after a car crash.  
http://www.jpands.org/vol10no2/cosman.pdf

Cosman did have one article that rose to quality standards high enough to get listed on PubMed ... "The medieval medical third party: compulsory consultation and malpractice insurance."  Yeah, everything we need to know about malpractice we learned in 1400 A.D.

Sorry, Jonny, this discussion is not about oxygen or lithium. Your little friend is nuts, and You are out of your league. ;)


Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 7:04pm
welcome back Flo thanks for the smack smack LOL
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Bethany1 on Oct 19th, 2006, 7:12pm
I know this thread is regarding medical care.. but I just had to add something. HUD is going around and doing a "Fair Housing" audit of all agencies that distribute federal money for housing. We have to have a plan in place for when someone comes into our office and cannot speak the english language. I'm not talking about Spanish, I'm talking EVERY language. I don't quite know how thats possible, but I'll try to put something together.  :-/
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Jonny on Oct 19th, 2006, 7:14pm
I guess anyone that does not agree with you, Flo.....is wrong!, right?

While everyones health insurance goes up to cover the uninsured, we get poorer and poorer service. If you pay your insurance on time for coverage for you or your family and there is an emergency you may just end up having to drive an extra 10-15 miles to get to an emergency room. Upon arriving you may be in line behind someone who doesn't pay, but expects the same services you receive.

Something has to be done of course. Illegal aliens receiving this free service should be number one on the list. Preventing illegals from being here in the first place is a law after all. Hospitals should be able to note whether someone is here illegally. The only way to tackle the issues is with full disclosure and good input data. If you don't know the breakdown of why someone is uninsured how can you fix the problem?

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000060.html

All these people cant be wrong, can they, Flo?
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by maffumatt on Oct 19th, 2006, 7:46pm
I expect that every one that shows up at a hospital to get treatment whether illegal or not, it would be inhumane to turn someone away......with that said, if our borders weren't wide open and our government actually enforced the laws already on the books those poor people wouldn't be here in the first place. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 19th, 2006, 7:56pm
maybe we should put signs in spanish along the border stating that if they chose to trespass into our country they do it at they're own risk and they're on they're own. no more helicopter rides.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by cynjeep89 on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:10pm
What's Wrong With This Picture???

I work for the #1 rated children's hospital in the country.  While reviewing emergency department charts for billing, I had three little boys (not related to each other/different last names) who were brought into the emergency department for minor problems such as rashes, a runny nose, etc.  Maybe it's just my family but my parents never took me to the emergency department for a rash, a runny nose or anything minor.  We always made an appointment with the family doctor like you are supposed to do, right???  Anyway, upon checking the insurance, I found that all three had Medicaid.  Now here's the kicker...are ya ready?..two had the first name"Jihad" and the third was named "Osama".  Makes me sick!!!!!!  
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:10pm
Flo, I see your points, I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you.  The thing is, I think American citizens in America should have the same, if not more, rights than illegal aliens.  Anyone can get emergency service, but the citizen would have to pay that off over time or go bankrupt, an illegal alien would just walk away and forget about it.  

I am not saying I want all illegal aliens to go home.  I want illegal aliens to check in and hold up their end of the public tit.  I hold up my end of the public tit, luckily I do not suckle off it for anything.  If you are going to be here in the country, you need to pay income taxes, social security taxes and the like.  Its kind of like insurance, you have to spread the risk and collect a little from everybody so that you can pay a lot to a few.  

u know what I mean?  Having a safety net is ok, but everybody needs to support it.

B$
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Charlie on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:28pm
What's really wrong is charging 1 million dollars to a group or anyone, anywhere for medical care.

The people really screwing the taxpayers are the hospitals.

Charlie
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:42pm

on 10/19/06 at 19:14:10, Jonny wrote:
I guess anyone that does not agree with you, Flo.....is wrong!, right?


No, I simply have no sympathy or patience for political hate speech dressed up as medical science.  Which that obviously was.

Anyone with a napkin and pencil stub can figure out the approximate magnitude of the problem.

10 million illegals (maybe higher or lower, but commonly seen number)
300 million legal residents (as of this week!)

Assuming that illegals use medical services at the same rate as every one else,

10/310 = 3.2% of medical care in the US goes to illegals.

But we know that illegals don't get many doppler heart scans and other expensive diagnostics, and they don't get annuals, they don't get suspicious moles biopsied.  The total usage of healthcare dollars by illegals is probably closer to 2%.  That's on par with the fraud committed by doctors and medical supply companies.  And far less than waste and inefficiency of the system.

What about the un-reimbursed emergency care that is supposedly driving hospitals to bankruptcy?

10 million illegals, most don't have insurance (not sure about all the meat packers at Hormel plants).

46 million legal Americans without insurance

Assuming that uninsured illegals make the same number of trips to the emergency room as uninsured legals,  

=> 17% of the emergency room non-reimbursed spending is from illegals
     83%, the lion's share, is from the unemployed and working poor legals.

Clearly, the real problem is poor uninsured Americans (or the system, or lack there of).

You can adjust these numbers if you like. It's a quick exercise based on assumptions that are ballparked.  But it is reality based and semi-scientific, unlike the pseudo-scientific conservatives you cited that want to blame the immigrants and draw attention away from the real problem.  
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Jonny on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:45pm
I dont have to adjust anything, Flo.

One word!

illegal
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:49pm

on 10/19/06 at 18:15:20, floridian wrote:
If the immigration issue was solved overnight and the immigrants all dissappeared or magically flew home, there would still be thousands of people in the U.S. that read this board and lack adequate health care.  That is the real outrage.  

I don't disagree. But the fact that thousands of illegals siphon off millions of dollars' worth of health care on my dime before some of my brothers and sisters have their needs tended to makes it even more outrageous.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by BB on Oct 20th, 2006, 3:21am

Just from a medical person point of view:

If I see an injured person, no matter where I am, I have to treat that person first and worry about getting paid later.

Medical and personal conscience wouldnt allow me to walk away just because the person has no money or insurance.

One problem with insurance is that people and even institutions have the mentality that if insurance is going to pay then we can overcharge. We have the same problems here in Australia. Doctors, specialists and hospitals charge a higher fee if the patients are insured than when they pay cash. Then the insurance premium goes up every year until its no longer affordable.

Annette
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 20th, 2006, 5:14am
I'm not saying leave these people to die in the desert, but maybe an answer could be that where they are breaking the law they should be arrested and work towards paying that bill off after they're out of the hospital while seving time for the laws they have broken. sure the whole bill won't be paid but at least some of it will. It's better than them being put on a bus brought back to Mexico having done nothing but break the law and drain our resources. Maybe that might help act as a deterant. The free rides for illegals have got to stop. I know Flo likes to throw in his facts and math into the argument but i'm writing this from the heart as one and i know there are more here and every where  who are feeling the burn of trying to pay off medical bills going totally broke duing so and seeing all this free ride shit on the news. the reporters talk about how these illegals won't be paying the bill as you're watching 4 helicopters bringing them into the hospital. i know i'm beating a dead horse and ranting and i apologise. i'm just pissed. if we have to pay they should have to. again sorry for the rant    
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by imnotbub on Oct 20th, 2006, 9:56am
All we have to do is stop trying to fix the world, and fix our own country. The money spent on bombs in the middle east, repaving Lebanons roads, and greasing Cheney's pockets through Haliburton could make the money spent on illegals in hospitals seem like chicken feed. Pay the people at the aiports and borders more than $8 an hour and the quality of people that will work there will go up, then the terrorists will get cousght on the way in. Invest 'in' the country instead of dumping billions into the rest of the world and we will be good to go. I suggested to my step father things like this, and being the good Bush supporter that he is, his response, editited a bit, was basically that we couldn't, what would the world think of us then? What do they think NOW? Could it be any worse, I don't think so. And besides, who gives a rats ass what they think.

Steve
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 20th, 2006, 10:11am

on 10/20/06 at 09:56:07, imnotbub wrote:
All we have to do is stop trying to fix the world, and fix our own country. The money spent on bombs in the middle east, repaving Lebanons roads, and greasing Cheney's pockets through Haliburton could make the money spent on illegals in hospitals seem like chicken feed. Pay the people at the aiports and borders more than $8 an hour and the quality of people that will work there will go up, then the terrorists will get cousght on the way in. Invest 'in' the country instead of dumping billions into the rest of the world and we will be good to go. I suggested to my step father things like this, and being the good Bush supporter that he is, his response, editited a bit, was basically that we couldn't, what would the world think of us then? What do they think NOW? Could it be any worse, I don't think so. And besides, who gives a rats ass what they think.

Steve

Once again, it's all Bush's fault.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by BB on Oct 20th, 2006, 10:19am

on 10/20/06 at 05:14:30, alchemy wrote:
I'm not saying leave these people to die in the desert, but maybe an answer could be that where they are breaking the law they should be arrested and work towards paying that bill off after they're out of the hospital while seving time for the laws they have broken.



I have thought about that too, but then in reality that means you have to house them, guard them and feed them first, and thats going to cost a lot more than any money that they can generate through work.

And that wont deter any, because even our standard in prisons and detention centres are much better than the living standard they have back home.

I think the answer lies in improving border patrolling so that they cant cross the line and get into the territory.

Annette
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 20th, 2006, 10:37am

on 10/20/06 at 10:19:15, BB wrote:
I have thought about that too, but then in reality that means you have to house them, guard them and feed them first, and thats going to cost a lot more than any money that they can generate through work.

And that wont deter any, because even our standard in prisons and detention centres are much better than the living standard they have back home.

I think the answer lies in improving border patrolling so that they cant cross the line and get into the territory.

Annette


While what you say may be true, should they get away with breaking the law? i know i sure as hell don't. here in Az they have the famous tent city where they would go and eat balogny sandwiches. i think they do it for under a dollar a prisoner a day.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by jimmers on Oct 20th, 2006, 11:31am
The US should take a que from Canada.

While fishing in Canada a few years ago, my buddy got a hook stuck in his hand. We drove 40 miles to the hospital, and waited 6 hours for him to be treated. Not because the injuries or illness of the other people were more pressing, it was just that they treat their own citizens first even if they arrived after us, unless its a serious injury of course. In addition, payment was also required up-front or there would be NO service.

Gas to drive there $10.00

Cost of procedure $196.00

Taking care of your own citizens first $ Priceless

jimmers
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 20th, 2006, 11:34am

on 10/20/06 at 11:31:42, jimmers wrote:
The US should take a que from Canada.

While fishing in Canada a few years ago, my buddy got a hook stuck in his hand. We drove 40 miles to the hospital, and waited 6 hours for him to be treated. Not because the injuries or illness of the other people were more pressing, it was just that they treat their own citizens first even if they arrived after us, unless its a serious injury of course. In addition, payment was also required up-front or there would be NO service.

Gas to drive there $10.00

Cost of procedure $196.00

Taking care of your own citizens first $ Priceless

jimmers



Beautiful!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 20th, 2006, 11:42am

on 10/20/06 at 10:11:33, brewcrew wrote:
Once again, it's all Bush's fault.


Well, he did lead us into another Vietnam that has already cost the nation $400,000,000,000.  Course, he did have some help.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Margi on Oct 20th, 2006, 11:43am
::)  don't believe everything you read.

We've just had THREE women lose their babies while waiting for attention in the emergency room.  All Canadian girls, too.  All within a month.  Triage nurses looked at them, passed them over for other cases.  All three could have been given drugs to prevent these miscarriages.

Our Canadian health care system isn't as rosy as the media would have you believe, trust me.  Certainly not like it used to be.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by winshots on Oct 20th, 2006, 12:07pm

on 10/20/06 at 03:21:58, BB wrote:
If I see an injured person, no matter where I am, I have to treat that person first and worry about getting paid later.


That's all, folks...
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by deltadarlin on Oct 20th, 2006, 1:50pm
There is only one way to stop the flood of illegal workers into this country and that is to enforce the laws that are already on the books.  I-9s, and they are required by the Federal government, should be collected on every employee and all forms of ids verified by sight.  If you start fining the sh*t out of employers who hire illegal aliens, it's not going to be profitable to continue hiring them, is it?

'darlin
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by JeffB on Oct 20th, 2006, 2:05pm
An I-9 is just a form that we use to tell the government that we've seen the required documents. We copy IDs ans SSC #s but there is no way for us to tell if an ID card or Social Security card is legitimate or not. And there is a host of other acceptable form of IDs that are listed on the back that we can use, but hell, it's easy to get fraudulant versions of these as well.

We've made these social security cards so vital when hiring people and using the numbers for so many other reasons but we have no easy way to prove there authenticity.  Imho.  
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by imnotbub on Oct 20th, 2006, 2:19pm

on 10/20/06 at 10:11:33, brewcrew wrote:
Once again, it's all Bush's fault.



I knew we agreed. ;;D

Steve
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 20th, 2006, 2:41pm

on 10/20/06 at 11:42:21, floridian wrote:
Well, he did lead us into another Vietnam that has already cost the nation $400,000,000,000.  Course, he did have some help.

And how many Americans' lives have been spared from the hands of terrorism because of this? Is it one? One hundred? 10,000? Is there some point along the money continuum where it's "not worth it?" In other words, it's okay to spend $400,000,000,000 to save the lives of 50,000 Americans, but not for 49,999?

Now, if I just say "Everything bad that ever happened in the history of man is Bush's fault," can we stay on topic and not hijack Jim's thread?
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by JeffB on Oct 20th, 2006, 2:57pm
"If I see an injured person, no matter where I am, I have to treat that person first and worry about getting paid later".

But how long can Doctors and hospitals do this before they go under?

Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 20th, 2006, 3:24pm

on 10/20/06 at 14:41:11, brewcrew wrote:
And how many Americans' lives have been spared from the hands of terrorism because of this? Is it one? One hundred? 10,000? Is there some point along the money continuum where it's "not worth it?" In other words, it's okay to spend $400,000,000,000 to save the lives of 50,000 Americans, but not for 49,999?


Well, if you accept the findings of the National Intelligence Estimate, a consensus of 16 of our intelligence agencies, then this war has not made us any safer - it has increased the risk to our nation.  I would say that $400 Billion and tens of thousands of casualties to put our nation in greater danger is probably on the negative side of a cost-benefits analysis.  But I'm just one of those pointy headed math guys.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Jonny on Oct 20th, 2006, 3:36pm

on 10/20/06 at 15:24:45, floridian wrote:
 But I'm just one of those pointy headed math guys.


Agreed!...LOL ;;D

With that I bid you all farewell till Sunday.

Love you, Flo  :-*
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 20th, 2006, 4:38pm

on 10/20/06 at 15:24:45, floridian wrote:
Well, if you accept the findings of the National Intelligence Estimate, a consensus of 16 of our intelligence agencies, then this war has not made us any safer - it has increased the risk to our nation.  I would say that $400 Billion and tens of thousands of casualties to put our nation in greater danger is probably on the negative side of a cost-benefits analysis.  But I'm just one of those pointy headed math guys.

Hmmmm.....let's see......I'm trying to recall how many terror attacks we've had on American soil since 09/11/01. How many was that? Oh yeah - ZERO! But I'm just a pocket protector wearing engineering geek. I must not accept the findings of the so-called National Intelligence Estimate.

And that would be tens of thousands of AMERICAN casualties? I didn't think so.

And now, like my brother JG, I'm out of here until, well, until I feel like rejoining. Probably when the discussion gets back to health care for illegals.

Love and kisses,

Bill
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 20th, 2006, 4:56pm

on 10/20/06 at 16:38:29, brewcrew wrote:
Hmmmm.....let's see......I'm trying to recall how many terror attacks we've had on American soil since 09/11/01. How many was that? Oh yeah - ZERO! But I'm just a pocket protector wearing engineering geek. I must not accept the findings of the so-called National Intelligence Estimate.

And that would be tens of thousands of AMERICAN casualties? I didn't think so.

And now, like my brother JG, I'm out of here until, well, until I feel like rejoining. Probably when the discussion gets back to health care for illegals.

Love and kisses,

Bill


The official US casualty count for AMERICANS was 20,468 as of two days ago. That is in the tens of thousands, I believe.  
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm)

Yeah, and how did the invasion of Iraq prevent terror attacks against the US??  Because according to George Bush, there was no link between Saddam and Al Qaeda.


Quote:
Q One question for you both. Do you believe that there is a link between Saddam Hussein, a direct link, and the men who attacked on September the 11th?

THE PRESIDENT: I can't make that claim.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030131-23.html


Maybe we should all pray to St. Patrick - he drove all the snakes out of Ireland.  Need proof?  There are no snakes native to Ireland!  He must be responsible.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Sean_C on Oct 20th, 2006, 5:08pm

on 10/20/06 at 16:56:10, floridian wrote:
Maybe we should all pray to St. Patrick - he drove all the snakes out of Ireland.  Need proof?  There are no snakes native to Ireland!


He had nothing to do with it, we ate them all during the potatoe shortage  ;;D ;;D

Sean.................................. ;;D
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Oct 20th, 2006, 7:22pm

on 10/20/06 at 16:38:29, brewcrew wrote:
Hmmmm.....let's see......I'm trying to recall how many terror attacks we've had on American soil since 09/11/01. How many was that? Oh yeah - ZERO! But I'm just a pocket protector wearing engineering geek. I must not accept the findings of the so-called National Intelligence Estimate.


Bill


How many attacks did we have on american soil from 1994 to 2001?  ZERO!!  

So what's your point, Bill?
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by BB on Oct 20th, 2006, 10:03pm

on 10/20/06 at 14:57:55, JeffB wrote:
"If I see an injured person, no matter where I am, I have to treat that person first and worry about getting paid later".

But how long can Doctors and hospitals do this before they go under?



Actually, if the doctors and the hospitals only treat the minimum just to keep them alive then it should not cost that much at all.

Here we have a truck rolled over, 12 people injured? What sorts of injuries should there be ? fractured bones? cuts ? grazes ? concussions ? ... So some plasterings, bit of suturing, several bandages, maybe some Xrays .... It should not cost over 1M to treat these types of injury for 12 people, thats ridiculous.

If we only treat the illegal immigrants for the most acute injuries/illnesses only, just to keep them alive then send them back home straight away, it shouldnt cost that much. Giving them the same standard health care as the one they are used to back in their homeland should be sufficient.

I suspect that the doctors and the hospitals know that they can claim for anything and everything from a rich insurance fund so they would just go for it. Overtreat then overcharge.

Isnt there somebody to supervise what services do these people recieve and whether its justifiable?

Annette
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Charlie on Oct 20th, 2006, 10:52pm

Quote:
"If I see an injured person, no matter where I am, I have to treat that person first and worry about getting paid later".

But how long can Doctors and hospitals do this before they go under?


It's called doing the right thing or good deeds. Today good deeds have price tags that make them not so. I have some personal experience with this.  Business will absorb millions in junkets, and lobbying fees, etal. I see no reason why ER doctors shouldn't do it when called to, nor that hospitals shouldn't do the same.  It's the most American thing there is.

We will make it kids. It looks worse than it is because of fear, simply fear. When things aren't going well in Washington, these guys bomb us. They do it by trying to scare the bejeesus out of the electorate. It works better than reality. What do they have us worry about during elections? As Lewis Black says: "queers!" that's more important than war and all it fosters.

Immigration is a great target because it's gotten so big but they wont to commit to anything that might lose votes so they leave it up to Walmart and other the businesses that illegaly "hire" them. It's too often like the garment district in New York 100 years ago. These greedy bashtards bear a ton of the responsibility. When they are asked to chip in though, it's no way and then referred to as the end of American civilization.

Blame Bush? You bet.

Think that Bush just might be accountable to us. He is no Harry Truman; that's for sure but we shouldn't complain I guess. He does send more Homeland Security funds to places like Montana and Nebraska that to New York and other ports. It pays.....literally to be in a red state.

Charlie
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 21st, 2006, 7:55am

on 10/20/06 at 19:22:34, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
So what's your point, Bill?

Simply this: I'm done with the "Bush sucks. No he doesn't." crap on a thread about providing free health care for illegals.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by alchemy on Oct 21st, 2006, 8:08am
I'm almost sorry i brought this up. It wasn't meant to be a fight about Bush. i'm just pissed that people enter into our country illegally and drain our resources. i understand they're plight in Mexico i really do i've been there enough to see it first hand, but i also deal with it here. they come here and know every angle to beat the system. They get aid before citizens do. i have nothing but respect for people who come here and do it lgally and contribute to society instead of taking the easy way and getting free rides. This started out with 12 guys in a truck, yes as humanitarians we need to treat they're injuries, but in the same light as decent human beings they should take responsibility for the bill.  
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by chewy on Oct 21st, 2006, 8:18am
Just send the bill to this guy

http://www.terra.com/addon/img/actualidad/1502e85fox130p.jpg

His news station makes plenty of dough.  8)
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 21st, 2006, 8:47am

on 10/21/06 at 08:08:47, alchemy wrote:
I'm almost sorry i brought this up. It wasn't meant to be a fight about Bush. i'm just pissed that people enter into our country illegally and drain our resources. i understand they're plight in Mexico i really do i've been there enough to see it first hand, but i also deal with it here. they come here and know every angle to beat the system. They get aid before citizens do. i have nothing but respect for people who come here and do it lgally and contribute to society instead of taking the easy way and getting free rides. This started out with 12 guys in a truck, yes as humanitarians we need to treat they're injuries, but in the same light as decent human beings they should take responsibility for the bill.  

You and I are sympatico, bro. If it's going to be okay for this to occur, then open the f'n flood gates and come on in! If not, then treat it for what it is - ILLEGAL.

It's just like smoking - it's treated as though it's illegal (and in some instances it is, as in the case of communities that have mandated that bars and restaurants be smoke-free). Just quit girl thingy-footing around. If it's so f'n detrimental to society, make it illegal.

They never will - the government is too addicted to the tax revenue.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by BarbaraD on Oct 21st, 2006, 9:26am
On a BRIGHTER note.

I have a client who is LEGAL (naturalized), pays taxes - bunches of them (I do his returns) and is a really (what I consider) good citizen.

Well, his wife needed a hysteroctomy a couple of years ago. He doesn't have any health insurance, so he took her to Mexico to get the surgery. Cost about $1000.00. He just couldn't afford to have it done HERE for $10,000.

My question is WHY are OUR health costs so much more here.

While my husband was working in Venezuela, he had a little heart problem. They put him in a "private" hospital, in ICU, for 10 days. His doctor was a cardiac specialist who had studied with DeBeci (in Houston). When he left the hospital he paid the bill with his credit card -- $2500.  Can you guess what it would have cost here?

I'm not against treating EMERGENCIES in the ER (regardless of who they are), but when people bring their kids in for runny noses - they should be sent home and told to go see their regular doc. Save the ER for EMERGENCIES.

The best advice I have for the ILLEGAL problem is remember to VOTE in November. Only when we get people in congress who will LISTEN to the folks back home will we get the problem changed.

Hugs BD
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 21st, 2006, 9:55am

on 10/21/06 at 08:08:47, alchemy wrote:
I'm almost sorry i brought this up. It wasn't meant to be a fight about Bush.  


And it isn't a fight about Bush.  You mentioned healthcare, which led to a discussion of this countries priorities and policies, and that triggered the conservative chorus line that anyone who opposes the war is just a mean little Bush hater.  Actually, that is an improvement in the U.S. political climate.  It used to be that anyone who questioned the war was called an Al Qaeda lover. But now that more than half of the population has buyer's remorse for war, that attack no longer flies.  

If you want to make any progress towards getting decent healthcare coverage for all Americans, then you better batten down the hatches, cause people will dump on you! Women didn't just get the vote - they had to work for it, and they were ridiculed and denigrated for trying and physically assaulted. Worker's rights did not come without a fight - the 40 hour week, the minimum wage, health and safety rules were not birthday presents from a benevolent world.

Anyone that wants real change to the healthcare system will be called a socialist pansy, an economic dreamer, or whatever perjorative terms are focus-group-tested by the insurance industry and then pushed through friendly corporate media and social channels.  

You said you were speaking from the heart? Tough Love - we all have sorrow, we all have fear, but if we turn off the rationality God gave us, we will end up worse for it.

Consider this take on medical bills and bankruptcy:  

1) The bankruptcy laws were recently changed to make it more difficult for individuals (but not corporations) to shed debt,
2) Half of all bankruptcies involve lapses in medical insurance and a build up of medical bills, especially if a person becomes so sick that they lose their job and coverage.
3) The law to change the bankruptcy rules was written by the credit card industry, passed by a Republican House and Senate and signed by a Republican President.  The Democrats were not unanimously opposed, but the Democrats were the only significant opposition to it.

Conservative Conclusions?
A) Floridian is just a Bush hater!
B) People who go bankrupt are the lazy/greedy/stupid people that run up too much credit card debt with no intentions of paying it back.
C) The root of the healthcare problem is the illegal immigrant that drives up costs. Pay no attention to the real shape of the medical industry - its too complex and will give you headaches. Nothing can be done. You are just one little ant - accept your lot in life and don't fight the hive mind.


Political?  Damn right it is political. That's how we got to where we are, and that's the only way that things might improve.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by floridian on Oct 21st, 2006, 10:24am

on 10/21/06 at 09:26:24, BarbaraD wrote:
On a BRIGHTER note.

I have a client who is LEGAL (naturalized), pays taxes - bunches of them (I do his returns) and is a really (what I consider) good citizen.

Well, his wife needed a hysteroctomy a couple of years ago. He doesn't have any health insurance, so he took her to Mexico to get the surgery. Cost about $1000.00. He just couldn't afford to have it done HERE for $10,000.

My question is WHY are OUR health costs so much more here.


I would hazard to say that medical costs being about 10x more in the US than in Mexico might be related to the fact that wages in the US are about 10x more than in Mexico. Doctors cost more here, as do plumbers, programmers, and fast food workers.  

I would add the incredibly inneficient U.S. companies that run the insurance racket - 40% of your dollars paid to Blue Cross, Humana, or Prudential go to administration. Compare that to the government run Medicare program, which spends about 3% of its budget on overhead, and 97% on paying doctors and hospitals for medical services.  

But if you want to pretend that the 2% of our health care budget that is used to treat illegals is what is causing our problems, be my guest.  That myth sure won't improve the health care system, but at least it will make you feel better knowing that if we Americans can't get decent care, the illegals will get even less. Such schadenfreude!
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Kevin_M on Oct 21st, 2006, 3:02pm
Just to tag on here at the end, the Supeme Court ruled Friday that AZ may require voters to provide photo ID next month, in an unsigned five-page order but was not issuing a ruling on the constitutionality of AZ's law.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Gator on Oct 21st, 2006, 4:23pm

on 10/20/06 at 19:22:34, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
How many attacks did we have on american soil from 1994 to 2001?  ZERO!!  

So what's your point, Bill?


I was going to stay out of this, but...

Selecting 1994 as a start date for your defense of your hatred of Bush and your protection of the non-existant legacy of Bill Clinton is bogus.  Clinton was president in 1993 when the first attack on the WTC took place.  His handling of the attack as a law enforcement matter instead of the act of war against America it actually was helped foster the image of America as a paper tiger who roars loudly but has no teeth or claws.

As to the immigration problem - heavily fine/jail the employers of illegal aliens and the illegals will have much less of a reason to cross the border.  No need for unmonitored fences that will just be cut (or like happened in the Philippines - stolen).  We already have the laws on the books.  We just need to elect people at all levels of government with the balls to enforce them.  Solve the illegal problem and you solve their role in the problems hospitals have with unpaid medical care.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Oct 21st, 2006, 4:47pm

on 10/21/06 at 16:23:13, Gator wrote:
I was going to stay out of this, but...

Selecting 1994 as a start date for your defense of your hatred of Bush and your protection of the non-existant legacy of Bill Clinton is bogus.  Clinton was president in 1993 when the first attack on the WTC took place.  His handling of the attack as a law enforcement matter instead of the act of war against America it actually was helped foster the image of America as a paper tiger who roars loudly but has no teeth or claws.


Bro, Clinton was in office for like 4 weeks when the first trade center bombing happened.  Those perps are now in jail.  
Bush was in office for like 8 months when the second trade center bombing happened.  Then, when it did happen, Bush didnt do much of anything about it.  For some reason, the Bush administration didnt even follow procedure when planes were hijacked.  As a matter of fact, he specifically said he doesnt think much about bin laden and he isnt concerned with him.

Personally I think the Bush legacy of not doing much of anything is more of a paper tiger than Clinton's legacy of jailing the perps.  
Thats just me, though
B$
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by brewcrew on Oct 21st, 2006, 4:53pm
Jim - Sorry about the hijacking and any part I played in it.

Bill
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Kevin_M on Oct 21st, 2006, 5:02pm

on 10/20/06 at 19:22:34, BMoneeTheMoneeMan wrote:
How many attacks did we have on american soil from 1994 to 2001?  ZERO!!


If our embassies are U.S. soil, then August 7, 1998 the ones in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed.  Pres. Clinton responded with 75 Tomahawk cruise missles on Sudan and Afghanistan in a retaliatory strike against Al-Qaeda.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Charlie on Oct 21st, 2006, 7:03pm

Quote:
I was going to stay out of this, but...

Selecting 1994 as a start date for your defense of your hatred of Bush and your protection of the non-existant legacy of Bill Clinton is bogus.  Clinton was president in 1993 when the first attack on the WTC took place.  His handling of the attack as a law enforcement matter instead of the act of war against America it actually was helped foster the image of America as a paper tiger who roars loudly but has no teeth or claws.


Bush ran as someone who have handled the bombing of the U. S. S. Cole so much better. It disappeared in his sights and as a topic after election. He did zero all the way up to 9/11.

You can have the thread back though. I'm cool.

Charlie
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by maffumatt on Oct 21st, 2006, 7:08pm

on 10/21/06 at 19:03:38, Charlie wrote:
I'm cool.

Yes you are Charlie, the coolest Lib I know.
Title: Re: Is this not wrong?
Post by Charlie on Oct 21st, 2006, 7:24pm
http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/aw dont mention.gif
Charlie


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