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        New Message Board Archives >> 2006 General Board Posts >> Incoherent and illogical beliefs
        
(Message started by: wildhaus on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 3:06pm)

Title: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by wildhaus on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 3:06pm

I was reading the article about “American appears in new al-Qaida tape”, this morning
and it didn’t “let go” of me, all the time I was wondering if all the ones recommending
to reason and talk to the Al-Qaida “fighters” (I call it terrorists) have read the article, and
the blind hate toward the western world and its standards, morals, but most of all the blind hatred
toward the other two monotheistic religions, which in a way the ISLAM IS BASED ON!

I quote

“It is time for the unbelievers to discard these incoherent and illogical beliefs," he said. "Isn't it the time for the Christians, Jews, Buddhists and atheists to cast off the cloak of the spiritual darkness which enshrouds them and emerge into the light of Islam?"

and if that is not the way we take, convert to Islam, and see the light:

Muslim should "shed tears" for Westerners killed by al-Qaida attacks.

Sorry had to,
As much as I try I just can’t understand………
and honestly, with there hand not just dripping of blood…….. its pouring of
blood, I just don’t want to talk or understand………

Michael

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Charlie on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 4:28pm

I read about this a little too. Who knows WTF is behind it? The damn tape was something like 48 minutes or so.

There was an interview on PBS or something, it may have been one of the Bill Moyers "Faith and Reason" sessions but the crux is that they are dumbfounded that God has tolerated Western religions and thought at all and that they reaped so many completely undeserved benefits. It drives then right around the bend. The other thing is that one has to molder for several thousand years in a grave before entering heaven....unless.....one sacrifices for the faith. They get to paradise immediately. Getting on the fast track to the promised land is tempting.

There is nothing new about this but instant communication and the ability to transport this message is new.

What a mess.

Charlie

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Mosaicwench on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 4:57pm

I suppose this is an unpopular point of view but I really believe that Islam is a murderous death cult.

I've read some of the (translated) Koran and just can't get my head around the subjugation of women, the implied pedophilia of Mohammad, the concept of dhimmitude, and the convert or die mentality. Not only can't I get my head around it, I outright reject it.

Religion of peace my ass - it's the religion of pieces.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Charlotte on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 6:15pm

It is unwise to think of every muslim as a death cultist.

I don't agree with the religion, and I think it is scary, but I know some good muslims, and have never actually met a bad one.

Charlotte

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by The mad viking on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 6:33pm

There is 1 rule that is very easy to live by in this matter

"I dont care by what name you call your god,we all are seeking for something better,but the main thing is to be able to sit with the same table and share a cup of coffe or something .

Svenn

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by brewcrew on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 8:30pm

on 09/03/06 at 18:15:42, Charlotte wrote:

It is unwise to think of every muslim as a death cultist.

I don't agree with the religion, and I think it is scary, but I know some good muslims, and have never actually met a bad one.

Charlotte

You haven't met a "bad" one because the bad ones want you to convert or die. Since you're still around, it would follow....

Why don't the "good" ones dissociate themselves from this so-called religion?

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by paulc on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 11:02pm

Actually, if you study your history, more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion known to man. Aside from killing non-Christians, who were not believed to have souls, other Christians were slaughtered because they believed in a different interpretation of the bible. Read about The Crusades and The 30 Years' War if you want your hair to stand up. Until recently, if you lived in a Muslim controlled country and were a Christian or a Jew, you were left alone as long as you obeyed the law, paid your taxes and didn't try to convert anyone. Read about the Crusades when Christians killed Jews, other Christians as well as Muslims-and it was all OK'd by the various Popes in power at the time-people who participated in the Crusades were given absolution in advance. More people have been killed in the name of Christianity in the past 2000 years than the Muslims could ever dream of killing-we are talking millions here.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Charlie on Sep 3^rd, 2006, 11:24pm

Quote:

I suppose this is an unpopular point of view but I really believe that Islam is a murderous death cult.

This is going to sound odd from me but I don't entirely disagree. I need to hear that other Muslims have spoken out enmasse against this extreme sect on a level that sane people speak out against the Ku Klux Klan. I'm still waiting.

Someone said that people that have distorted Islam be called, "Muslimists" rather than Muslim and that people that use Christian fundamentalism as a poitical tool should be called "Christianists."

Damn. Life is too short to waste it making life miserable for your neighbors.

Charlie

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by brewcrew on Sep 4^th, 2006, 8:41am

on 09/03/06 at 23:02:31, paulc wrote:

Actually, I have studied my history. I have a degree in it. I did so in order to help prevent a repetition of past mistakes.

With that in mind, all I can say is, "That was then, this is now."

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by paulc on Sep 4^th, 2006, 8:51am

on 09/04/06 at 08:41:11, brewcrew wrote:

Actually, I have studied my history. I have a degree in it. I did so in order to help prevent a repetition of past mistakes.

With that in mind, all I can say is, "That was then, this is now."

And the same mistakes are being made again-we (all of us) never learn, except that our weapons are deadlier (I have a degree in History as well).

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by brewcrew on Sep 4^th, 2006, 9:03am

on 09/04/06 at 08:51:51, paulc wrote:

And the same mistakes are being made again-we (all of us) never learn, except that our weapons are deadlier (I have a degree in History as well).

I'm not sure I'm getting your point, Paul (meaning: could be my fault). "We" can't learn anything. I can. You can. He can. She can. Learning is done by individuals. What I've learned is that the holy war has become a wholly owned subsidiary of the Islamists.

I've learned to leave my neighbors alone if we can't get along. I've also learned that tall fences can work wonders from time to time.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by ivanov on Sep 4^th, 2006, 9:10am

There is absolutely nothing more evil that organizaed religion,
regardless of the religion. If there is a God, He/She is probably
sitting somewhere, shaking the head saying; "what the hell have
I done, I've created millions of planets and here is one that there
isn't one idiotic religion that is kind to another."

Read about the Rwandan genocide -----

http://www.afrol.com/features/10600

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by paulc on Sep 4^th, 2006, 9:21am

War is war, not matter what the reason. Big fences don't work-they've been tried for thousands of years. I believe that war is built into the human psyche; it has been around since we climbed out of the trees and the only change has been the technology. I am sad to say that wars will continue as long as humans are around. The reasons change, or rather the excuses change. Each side claims to have god on its' side. Politicians and big business love war because they make lots of money from it and you won't see their kids on the front lines. It is a sad situation but part of the human condition. Maybe it will change one day, but not in my lifetime or yours. At least we have the wisdom of not using our nuclear weapons, though how long that will last no one knows-mankind has used every weapon that he has developed-we used nukes in WWII and they did save lives, but with countries like North Korea having them, with leaders who don't care about the consequences, I fear that it is only a matter of time before some nut job in power decides to go out in a blaze of glory. I really hope that I am wrong, but I won't be around to find out..at least I HOPE that I'm not around to find out!

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Mosaicwench on Sep 4^th, 2006, 10:31am

on 09/03/06 at 18:33:02, The mad viking wrote:

"I dont care by what name you call your god,we all are seeking for something better,but the main thing is to be able to sit with the same table and share a cup of coffe or something."

Svenn, that's a nice sentiment. But what about sitting down to a cupa with a person who would rather behead you because you are the infidel than drink with you?

I believe there is no reasoning with Islamic extremists (or any extremists for that matter) and thus they must be eliminated.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Charlotte on Sep 4^th, 2006, 1:15pm

on 09/03/06 at 16:57:47, Mosaicwench wrote:

You didn't say extremist then, or I would have agreed with you.

Charlotte

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by brewcrew on Sep 4^th, 2006, 4:23pm

The big problem, as I see it, is that mainstream, moderate Muslims will not condemn the actions of a relatively few extremists. Why won't they do that? Are they, in doing so, afraid of their fate because of what the Quran teaches? If so, I'd have to say that there are some flaws in that book.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Tom K on Sep 4^th, 2006, 5:36pm

on 09/03/06 at 23:24:16, Charlie wrote:

X2! I said basically the same thing and got flamed for it! :-/ If the Muslims that have "distorted" the view and are extremist and a small percentage, why doesn't the "majority" take them on? Until they do, it is the 2 or 3 million "bad apples" that are spoiling the bunch...unless the "majority" agree with the extremist, fundamentally, and only give lip service to the rest of the world...

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Kevin_M on Sep 4^th, 2006, 5:48pm

on 09/04/06 at 16:23:38, brewcrew wrote:

The big problem, as I see it, is that mainstream, moderate Muslims will not condemn the actions of a relatively few extremists. Why won't they do that?

Apparently there is voice, but not on pages I would turn to in the paper. Lightly checking in the last three months to now, a couple articles appear in our local paper.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060627/OPINION01/606270304/1008

Tuesday, June 27, 2006

Faith and PolicyDon't tar all Muslims with brush of terror extremism

Dawud Walid

American Muslims have also stepped up to the plate to denounce terrorism and work with government officials to protect the security of all.
Since September 11, 2001, the Muslim community has made great strides to open its doors while taking a firm stance against religious extremism. These include efforts such as the "Not in the Name of Islam" campaign instituted by the Council on American-Islamic Relations, which garnered approximately 1 million American Muslim signers against political violence implicated with Islam.
Furthermore last year, the Fiqh Council on North America issued a clear fatwa against extremism and political violence. While these efforts continue, it is important for the media to recognize and encourage them.

Which led to this (http://72.14.207.104/custom?q=cache:99zScoKuAaYJ:www.cair-net.org/FatwaJuly2005.pdf+muslims+against+extremism,+detroit&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2&ie=UTF-8&client=pub-9089730217302474)

U.S. MUSLIM RELIGIOUS COUNCIL ISSUES FATWA AGAINST TERRORISM

344 Muslim organizations, mosques and imams have endorsed the preceding fatwa as of July
28, 2005 (see below). (8 pages of endorsements)

and this (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/R/RELIGION_TODAY?SITE=MIDTN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-08-24-12-01-55) picked up off the AP on last Sunday's religious page.

Aug 31, 12:17 PM EDT
Religion today By RACHEL ZOLL
AP Religion Writer

"We're not on opposite teams," al-Marayati said. "We're all trying to protect our country from another terrorist attack.
"In 2004, his group started the "National Anti-Terrorism Campaign," urging Muslims to monitor their own communities, speak out more boldly against violence and work with law enforcement. Hundreds of U.S. mosques have signed on, al-Marayati said.

It looks like the main voice is consolidated in a couple groups. Is it enough? Is it helping? That would be difficult to know.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Charlie on Sep 4^th, 2006, 6:06pm

This is from David Brooks, a regular columnist in the NY Times. His stuff is usually good: (takes up some space)

It’s true people everywhere want to satisfy their desires, but they also require moral systems that will restrain and give shape to their desires. It’s true people everywhere love their children, but they also require respect and recognition and they will sacrifice their own lives, and even their children’s lives, in wars for status. It’s true people everywhere hate oppression, but they also require identity, and human beings build identities by collectively hating groups that represent what they are not.

People who live in societies where authority is united — as under Islam — are really different from people who live in societies where authority is divided. People in honor societies — where someone will kill his sister because she has become polluted by rape — are different from people in societies where people are judged by individual intentions. People who live in societies where the past dominates the present are different from people who live in societies where the future dominates the present.

All these other parts of human nature impel people to become tribal. People form groups to realize their need for status, moral order and identity. The differences between these groups can be vast and irreconcilable.
Now my mental image of the landscape of humanity is not made up of rolling hills. It’s filled with chasms, crevices, jagged cliffs and dark forests. The wildernesses between groups seem stark and perilous.

Yikes

Charlie

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by maffumatt on Sep 4^th, 2006, 6:16pm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml

Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments. This figure is more than twice as high as those who say it was not a conspiracy. Tragically, almost one in four British Muslims believe that last year's 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror.

When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."

Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it.

The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not.

Also concerning freedom of speech, as the NOP Research survey reports, "hardcore Islamists" constitute nine percent of the British Muslim population. A slightly more moderate group is composed of "staunch defenders of Islam." This second group comprises 29 percent of the British Muslim population. Individuals in this group aggressively defend their religion from internal and external threats, real or imagined.

The scary reality is that only three percent of British Muslims "took a consistently pro-freedom of speech line on these questions." The Muslim threat to British security is so severe that the assistant London police commissioner, Tarique Ghaffur, has called for an inquiry into the radicalization of young Muslims. Ghaffur sadly describes "a generation of angry young people vulnerable to exploitation."

Before the London bombings, British intelligence services estimated that one percent of British Muslims either support or are involved in terrorism. While this is mainly a peaceful and productive immigrant population, a significant number are prepared to act against their own country.

The British government believes that, in recent years, 3,000 British Muslims have returned home from al Qaeda training camps. Intelligence experts estimate that 1,200 Muslim radicals (80 percent of Pakistani origin) are currently pursuing a terrorist rather than a democratic option to vent their disgust at Tony Blair's support for America's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and opposition to Hezbollah.

This terrorist weed that is choking the U.K. is especially hard to eradicate because it is growing in British soil. America's fastest-growing religion is Islam, but here in the States the numbers are not a security concern, as a commitment to Islam has not overwhelmed a strong attachment to America itself — another victory for the cultural melting pot.

By contrast, the U.K. embraced taxpayer-subsidized multiculturalism and has paid a very dear price, indeed. The result — cultural apartheid — has encouraged a significant number of Muslims to exhibit more loyalty to fellow Muslims outside of the U.K. than to their fellow Britons.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Kevin_M on Sep 4^th, 2006, 6:37pm

on 09/04/06 at 18:16:29, maffumatt wrote:

This terrorist weed that is choking the U.K. is especially hard to eradicate because it is growing in British soil. America's fastest-growing religion is Islam, but here in the States the numbers are not a security concern, as a commitment to Islam has not overwhelmed a strong attachment to America itself; another victory for the cultural melting pot.

By contrast, the U.K. embraced taxpayer-subsidized multiculturalism and has paid a very dear price, indeed. The result; cultural apartheid; has encouraged a significant number of Muslims to exhibit more loyalty to fellow Muslims outside of the U.K. than to their fellow Britons.

Good article Matt. I wasn't as aware of the U.K.'s contrast to the generally speaking U.S. concerns.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Mosaicwench on Sep 4^th, 2006, 8:31pm

"People in honor societies — where someone will kill his sister because she has become polluted by rape — are different from people in societies where people are judged by individual intentions."

And this is just one of the gazillion reasons I reject Islam in all it's forms as a religion of any kind.

That's right - kill the victim . . . makes so much sense!

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by paulc on Sep 4^th, 2006, 9:21pm

I think that ALL religions, with the possible exception of The Quakers, are nothing more than groups of people (those in power) who use them as a method of controlling other people for their own benefit. None really follow the Ten Commandments, particularly "Thou shalt not kill", have histories filled with violence, intolerance, hypocracy and are more concerned with keeping their power than with anything else. How many people really believe in angels, the devil, etc.? What has happened to the "souls" of people born before Christianity was founded-are they all burning in hell? What about the "souls" of people who are not Christian-Budhists, Jews, Muslims, the various religions of India, etc.-do they all burn in hell because they do not believe in Christianity (and, on the other side of the coin, do Christians burn in wherever after they die because they do not believe in the tenents of the other religions?). Until the 19th century, most wars were fought over religion (and politics, of course was always a part of that and still is) and each side's church said that it was OK to kill the other guy because they believed differently. How many people know that the bible consists of parts of religions that pre-date Judism and Christianity that were taken in part or in whole from those "pagan" faiths-look at the Code of Hammurabi and the Ten Commandments. What "sin" did tanaanne's niece commit to get a brain abscess? Why did a good man like Ken die at just 38 y.o. (my wishes that your niece recovers, tanaanne and my deepest sympathies to Ken's family) while Osama Bin Laden keeps on living and killing? Why was Hitler allowed to commit the awful crimes of WWII? Just something for you to think about.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by tanner on Sep 4^th, 2006, 9:39pm

paul, I am not going to quote your post.

suffice it to say that given the nature of you bringing up some VERY recent posts......eat S##T and enjoy you frickin classless bastard >:(....Tim

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by paulc on Sep 4^th, 2006, 9:45pm

[smiley=huh.gif]

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by brewcrew on Sep 4^th, 2006, 9:50pm

I don't have to think about any of it, Paul. If you entertain the concept of "original sin," it all makes sense. We are flawed. Evil exists. The innocent suffer. We all die. And, most importantly, for anyone to claim they have the answers is mere arrogance.

If you have some time, do some research on the original meaning of "Thou shalt not kill." The original, ancient Hebrew is much closer to our "murder."

BIG difference.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by paulc on Sep 4^th, 2006, 10:00pm

I didn't claim to have the answers, I just raised some questions. I don't believe in "original sin" nor that we are the children of Adam and Eve, because then we would all be the product of incest (of course, that would explain many human behaviors).
Regarding "murder" as a more accurate translation of the ancient Hebrew, does that mean that the death of innocent peope due to "collateral damage (love that phrase)" in war is OK?

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by paulc on Sep 4^th, 2006, 10:25pm

on 09/04/06 at 21:39:20, tanner wrote:

paul, I am not going to quote your post.

suffice it to say that given the nature of you bringing up some VERY recent posts......eat S##T and enjoy you frickin classless bastard >:(....Tim

I can tell that you are tolerant of other points of view and of people raising questions about the beliefs of others...I really hope that you are not a school teacher!

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by Charlie on Sep 4^th, 2006, 10:59pm

Well I'm an athiest so I look at this stuff differently. From this you know where I come down on Bible stuff.

On the other hand, I have no real problem with religious displays and celebrations and the like so long as they don't get in my way of enjoying my country.

Charlie

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by brewcrew on Sep 4^th, 2006, 11:01pm

Original sin (in quotes) meaning only that we are all born into the same circumstances - that we are flawed, that we all have the capability of doing horrible things to each other. Not the Adam and Eve story.

Title: Re: Incoherent and illogical beliefs
Post by paulc on Sep 4^th, 2006, 11:54pm

I'll agree with that...I hope that you don't believe in the Adam and Eve fairy tale. By the way, I don't call it "original sin" but rather that it is just a part of human biology.