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        New Message Board Archives >> 2006 General Board Posts >> What say you?
        
(Message started by: Jonny on Aug 11^th, 2006, 8:01pm)

Title: What say you?
Post by Jonny on Aug 11^th, 2006, 8:01pm

Is this cruel parenting or some kind of teaching process?

http://www.consumptionjunction.com/downloadsnew/cj_59826.wmv

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by maffumatt on Aug 11^th, 2006, 8:15pm

I say the kid will have very good problem solving abilities at an early age.
Matt

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by tanner on Aug 11^th, 2006, 8:19pm

Attainable goal, Problem solving. I can see some benefit to such teaching methods but I would need to know just how long it lasts if the problem isn't solved and how encouraging the parent/ teacher is to make a decent judgement call.

Interesting!.......Tim

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by LeLimey on Aug 11^th, 2006, 8:24pm

Maybe if they had played fair by taking the kids socks off I'd be less disgusted.
Its all very well teaching kids to be independant, I'm all for that.. but that was a little baby, that was food (drink) which I don't believe in making a reward and it smacked of sadism to me.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Jonny on Aug 11^th, 2006, 8:33pm

Im on the fence (so to speak) myself, you all bring up good points.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Sean_C on Aug 11^th, 2006, 8:37pm

on 08/11/06 at 20:33:45, Jonny wrote:

Im on the fence (so to speak) myself.

Its better than being behind the fence looking out ;;D

Sean................................. ;;D

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by E-Double on Aug 11^th, 2006, 9:14pm

on 08/11/06 at 20:24:11, LeLimey wrote:

It doesn't smack of sadism.......he went through a natural extinction burst and learned a skill.

They let his behavior progress through successive approximations.
It was shaped beautifully.

It would have been sadistic IF when he grabbed it she would have removed it or IF she would have given it to him once he started crying b/c he then would have learned to scream instead of to trouble shoot.

That is my professional opinion.

The new parent in me melted.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Sean_C on Aug 11^th, 2006, 9:26pm

That was very cool Eric ;;D

Sean................................. ;;D

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by alchemy on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:00pm

I saw it as an attainable goal that required thought and effort. If it was dragged on to long or no encouragement given then it would be wrong. I thought it was a good puzzle to figure out.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Margi on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:05pm

Man, I dunno if I could do that to Savannah.

But I could have done it to Corinne...LOL....oops, was that out loud?

Honestly, I think it would have been better with a toy AND bare feet as Helen says. I don't think food should EVER be a reward for anything. I'd worry that it would maybe later lead to food addiction/eating disorder?

I'm just a softie for kids though. I think I'd cave.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Sean_C on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:05pm

on 08/11/06 at 22:00:50, alchemy wrote:

I saw it as an attainable goal that required thought and effort. .

You ate your wheaties this mornin huh ROTFLMMFAO [smiley=laugh.gif]

I agree ;;D

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by alchemy on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:08pm

on 08/11/06 at 22:05:22, Sean_C wrote:

You ate your wheaties this mornin huh ROTFLMMFAO [smiley=laugh.gif]

I agree ;;D

Sean it was cheerios and someone pissed in them ;;D

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Margi on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:08pm

ya think it was that pesky male coyote, Jim?

He might still be choked at you...

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Ree on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:27pm

What a gorgeous baby first of all... I just wanted that baby to pick up the bottle and throw it at the camera person.... imagine the frustration...One thing the video did prove is how smart a child this age really is... so those of you that have a child 12-18 months.....do not talk baby talk to them. I watch my daycare parents treat their kids like slugs and because I speak to them in adult english they can get things and understand me. Parents are amazed...I thought the lady was mean... I would have showed the baby how to get it after the stress started. ree

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Margi on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:34pm

wholeheartedly agree with you, Ree. We, too, are a family in the No Baby Talk Zone, don't believe in it. I, too, would have showed that baby to come off the slide and put him down on the floor facing the bottle (I still would have replaced it with a toy), but still maybe make him crawl for it. Plant the idea in his head, but still make him make the end result happen himself.

That would have been priceless, though, if the babe had chucked the bottle at Evil Mother's head. ;)

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by maffumatt on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:35pm

I was wondering all the females were going to have a different answer than the men. It looks like its a gender thing?

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Ree on Aug 11^th, 2006, 10:51pm

on 08/11/06 at 21:14:58, E-Double wrote:

great point Eric remember this with your new baby... If you notice all the good behavior and do NOT reward that bad behavior you will be wayyyyyyyy ahead of the battle. Problem is its easier to see it when other people have it happening......and its really hard not to give in when you JUST WANT THAT BABY TO STOP CRYING. My daycare kids know that they don't get anything for bad behavior except time out... so they are always good for me... wish I knew all these secrets when I was bringing up spoiled Breezy.....

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Jonny on Aug 11^th, 2006, 11:03pm

Careful, Ree.

The dude has a degree in Behavior ;;D

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by E-Double on Aug 11^th, 2006, 11:24pm

on 08/11/06 at 22:51:15, Ree wrote:

great point Eric remember this with your new baby... If you notice all the good behavior and do NOT reward that bad behavior you will be wayyyyyyyy ahead of the battle. Problem is its easier to see it when other people have it happening......and its really hard not to give in when you JUST WANT THAT BABY TO STOP CRYING. My daycare kids know that they don't get anything for bad behavior except time out... so they are always good for me... wish I knew all these secrets when I was bringing up spoiled Breezy.....

Just keep in mind that if you are giving a timeout and you still see the behavior persist then it is the inappropriate treatment.

Timeout procedures are in actuality called Timeout from positive reinforcement and if the behavior is maintained by escape or avoidance then timeout would not be a punisher as it is defined. It would actually be negatively reinforcing the behavior.

Treatment HAS to match function.

Not saying you do this..........Timeouts are misused in so many damn schools and centers that I have observed and they wonder why the kid has been given 40+ timeouts in a month......wrong treatment. DOH!

It happens b/c many put morals or emotion into the equation and feel that it is less intrusive when they are inadvertantly making the behavior worse.

G-d I love this shit ;;D

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by E-Double on Aug 11^th, 2006, 11:27pm

on 08/11/06 at 23:03:14, Jonny wrote:

Careful, Ree.

The dude has a degree in Behavior ;;D

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce06b3127cce948a50ae2cd200000016103QasWrlwx0
:-*

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Jonny on Aug 11^th, 2006, 11:36pm

In my day it was a slap in the head and "Dont do that again"

I never killed anyone and never did jail time.

I say we go back to that....opppss, kids can now call the cops....sorry

What a fucked up world!

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by E-Double on Aug 11^th, 2006, 11:41pm

on 08/11/06 at 23:36:10, Jonny wrote:

I do not disagree with you.

I think what we find is that when we incorporate emotion into the treatment, things get whacky.

The rule of thumb in treatment w/in my profession is that if we are going to start off using a punishment procedure it comes atcha hard and intense as opposed to milder forms then increasing .

the reason is b/c the effects of punishment although rapid are short lived and people/ the behavior habituates and a more intense punisher needs to be applied...........this is how abuse develops.
starts with a yell:>> then a small whack>> then as the child keeps upping ante>> the person/parent has to up it as well...........this occurs until a pattern of abuse has been developed and the only thing that works is the unfortunate.

If a whacking occured immediately and the appropriate behavior was then reinforced we'd all be angels

Don't even get me started on our legal system and why it does not work or how it could be improved......oh boy

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Jonny on Aug 11^th, 2006, 11:51pm

on 08/11/06 at 23:41:59, E-Double wrote:

The rule of thumb in treatment w/in my profession is that if we are going to start off using a punishment procedure it comes atcha hard and intense as opposed to milder forms then increasing .

I guess my Dad had you beat years ago.....it was "If I have to tell you a third time "SMACK"

Three times and you got it!.....seems to me you got it backwards.

Thats whats wrong with this shit!!!!

Nite folks......PFDANS

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by maffumatt on Aug 11^th, 2006, 11:54pm

at least you got a warning. I wasn't on my own at 15 for no reason. That is once cycle that I busted.
Matt

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Melissa on Aug 12^th, 2006, 12:32am

:-X

(btw, Eli bit me on the shoulder tonight and I smacked him across his mouth while saying "Don't you EVER bite me!". I am not worried about him ever doing it again...)

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by zwibbs/Scott on Aug 12^th, 2006, 4:03am

on 08/11/06 at 22:05:22, Sean_C wrote:

You ate your wheaties this mornin huh ROTFLMMFAO [smiley=laugh.gif]

I agree ;;D

No--He slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by deltadarlin on Aug 12^th, 2006, 10:45am

I agree with Eric and Jonny *both*. When sarah was little (long before reasoning would work), when she did something she wasn't supposed to, a sharp spat on the hand and a stern *NO* stopped the behavior immediately (and it didn't take too many times for it to stop permanently). When she got older and could reason, we used the *3 strikes* rule and it worked well (again, didn't have to do it too many times).

Time-outs never worked with her (they work better in a situation where there are other children because of the *social* factor, ie *they're playing and I can't*). At home, time outs for her was more or less *lala* time, she'd completely zone out and forget that she was in *time out*.

I really wish I could have seen this video, but on dial-up, they'd be burying me before it loaded.

'darlin

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by nani on Aug 12^th, 2006, 10:58am

I think it was sadistic. Only because the baby was set up to provide video entertainment. There nothing wrong with putting them in a position to learn some problem solving. You do that with direction, though. Gee...if you can't get to it from here, lets try from here. To keep his bottle out of reach and not offer assistance is just plain cruel, IMO.
As far as spanking vs timeouts... it depends. Like Eric said, sometimes a swat on the bottom is the "first" thing you should do. Like when a 2 year old decides it's fun to break loose and run into the street. Timeouts are better when you seperate a child from hurting someone, or themselves. Did you ever see a parent slap a kid while saying "I said, don't hit your sister!" WTF?
Once kids reach a certain age.... spanking and timeouts just don't work at all. That's when you get creative and use hard labor or loss of priveleges.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by E-Double on Aug 12^th, 2006, 11:26am

PArenting is parenting.....

When one wants to change an inappropriate behavior and wants it to work...then the treatment MUST match the function.

Period.

this is not opinion or based on morals.

It's fact. :-*

Data data dat............yrs of empirically based evidence

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by kayarr on Aug 12^th, 2006, 12:40pm

Interesting thread......human behavior is a pet project of mine:) I had to use different approaches to both of my children. They were two entirely different people.

I know , hard nose that I am I only counted to 1.

That baby seem to be responding appropriately to the situation. I certainly would not have rewarded a slight frustrated fit with the wanted object.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by alchemy on Aug 12^th, 2006, 12:58pm

This thread is getting interesting. Naturally there are a million different views on what is cruel or sadistic. I really think it would have been sadistic had they put vasaline on the slide or if it had been going on for a long period of time without encouragement or guidance. Life if full of frustrations and if you don't learn early how to deal with it than emotional growth will be stunted because the child will quit at anything challenging.

as a sidebar being a survivor of raising three kids on the issue of timeout vs spanking thats a tough one its all parents dicision. I myself never used timeout, I found a rolledup newspaper and a swat on the nose worked quite well. Wait a minute or was that for the dogs. I can't remember damn kids have made me lose my mind ;;D

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by deltadarlin on Aug 12^th, 2006, 4:14pm

on 08/12/06 at 12:58:32, alchemy wrote:

I found a rolledup newspaper and a swat on the nose worked quite well. Wait a minute or was that for the dogs. I can't remember damn kids have made me lose my mind ;;D

Maybe it was the coyotes and not the kids?

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by Linda_Howell on Aug 12^th, 2006, 4:53pm

Quote:

I can't remember damn kids have made me lose my mind

That's because raising children is akin to being pecked to death. By a chicken.

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by alchemy on Aug 12^th, 2006, 5:16pm

[smiley=crackup.gif]

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by georgej on Aug 12^th, 2006, 9:07pm

Somewhat off topic from the subject of the video (I'm still thinking it over), but relevant, I hope, to some of the other comments here:

I've been following everything Eric has said with interest. I'm certainly not an expert in child-rearing--only had experience with the one, and she's always been pretty easy to get along with. Speaks her mind, though. I think some kids are just easy, and some are difficult.

Wish I'd known some of this stuff earlier--as a parent, I've made some false steps, but I've always tried to correct my approach if it wasn't working.

I think a lot of how we reflexively go about dealing with our kids has to do with how we were raised ourselves. Both Liz and I came from homes where our parents never struck us. Unusual, I know, for WWII era midwestern parents.

We instinctively did that with El--our bright line was always that we never struck, spanked, swatted, smacked or finger-snapped her for any reason. She's a teenager now, sure, but she's truly very polite, gets along well with adults and other kids, and does well in school. She won't cuss at all. You can't even make her cuss.

We usually dealt with issues when she was small by rewarding good behavior with praise or some sort of acknowledgement, and ignored unacceptable behavior--giving her no reinforcement whatsoever. There were many times when she threw a tantrum and went into paroxysms on the floor, and we just stepped over her.

No system's perfect, I guess, but we always tried to go with what worked well, and re-evaluated the things that didn't go well. I know it helped that Liz and I were on the same page from the beginning.

Not that El's ended up being a softie--I have no interest in raising someone's victim--she's earned a third-degree black belt in Taekwondo. She can take a hit and dish one out, too. Now that she's entering the late teenage years, I don't get too worried about something happening to her that she doesn't want to do. I only worry about the things she WANTS to do. :o

Sorry this is so long. I'm a recovering blabbermouth, but I'm working on it.

Best wishes,

George

Title: Re: What say you?
Post by alienspacebabe on Aug 12^th, 2006, 9:35pm

I agree with Eric's view - it's an opportunity to teach a child.

That said, I heard the mother laugh about 1/3 the way through the video, making the entire process sadistic rather than a teaching experience.