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(Message started by: Paul98 on Jul 22nd, 2006, 8:09pm)
Title: Genetic research and God
Post by Paul98 on Jul 22nd, 2006, 8:09pm
With all the diversity on this board, I thought it might be interesting to start a thread about genetic research and God.

God help me!  

Anyway, I’m a researcher in biology and I have my own thoughts about the subject.  Do I believe in God?  In my own way yes.  Do I practice in a religion?  No.  I was brought up Quaker and believe me, sitting on a hard wood bench for 5 hours when you are 5 years old; you have some thoughts of your own.  One is how come I have to sit here until my ass hurts so God damn much!

I’m digressing.  I have devoted ½ of my life to science and I really feel that genetic research  (this is very different from stem cell research) is a very dangerous path for humans to take.  It also has many, many benefits for mankind.  MY problem is with who ultimately controls the direction of the research.  Should humans or “mother Nature” (your own God) dictate the future of the human race?  As I stated in another thread, “it is not nice to fuck with Mother Nature.

My question is:  Should humans genetically engineer their future???

-P.

 
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by john_d on Jul 22nd, 2006, 8:25pm
I think so.   Hopefully we can do something with genetics regarding population control, which would be doing ourselves and the rest of the organic, earth-atmostphere dependent life a big favor.

edit
how about we do some intentional evolution on our violent, predatory tendencies while we are at it?    
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Kevin_M on Jul 22nd, 2006, 8:41pm

on 07/22/06 at 20:09:23, Paul98 wrote:
My question is:  Should humans genetically engineer their future???



Interesting stuff and seems too tough.  I read the many opinions by the writers in the report of the President's council on bioethics compiled in "Human Cloning and Human Dignity".   Other voices like Steven Pinker, Matt Ridley, Antoine Danchin and especially Francis Fukuyama in "Our Posthuman Future" and Bill McKibben with "Enough" have informative views that can differ.   Proceeding with consentual ethics that needs to be dealt with very soon and maintaining that world-wide could be a problem.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Sean_C on Jul 22nd, 2006, 8:48pm
We've been altering life since its creation, why should we stop in the 21st century?

Both bring hope, nothing wrong with that.

Sean..............................
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by floridian on Jul 22nd, 2006, 9:15pm
We make decisions that affect our genetics all the time - why not be more aware and make better decisions?  I am in favor of most research. Not in favor of eugenics, and I don't believe in an uber-race of people.

Are you familiar with deCode genetics of Iceland?? Interesting stuff:

http://real-iceland.com/deCode
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by chewy on Jul 22nd, 2006, 9:22pm

Quote:
MY problem is with who ultimately controls the direction of the research.


Not so much who ultimately controls it as what world lunatic uses the results to further his/her own agenda. No matter how inhumane and horendous that agenda may be.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by kayarr on Jul 22nd, 2006, 10:36pm
I also have a problem with us not having the ability to "see" far enough to know the outcome of some really important genetic altering.  (remember Thalidimine?)  All ya had to do was not take that stuff but it sure caused some sad problems.
I guess I also don't trust the human condition with such things.  There are so many who are motivated by greed and power.  Those two things are not good decision makers.

JMO
Kimberly
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Paul98 on Jul 22nd, 2006, 10:51pm

on 07/22/06 at 21:15:46, floridian wrote:
We make decisions that affect our genetics all the time - why not be more aware and make better decisions?  I am in favor of most research. Not in favor of eugenics, and I don't believe in an uber-race of people.

Are you familiar with deCode genetics of Iceland?? Interesting stuff:

http://real-iceland.com/deCode


I agree.  Eugenitics goes as far as he/she is some one I want to mate with.  Pre-disposing of what you want in children crosses the line with me.  I.e. cognesant selective eugenics.

-P.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Charlie on Jul 22nd, 2006, 11:55pm
Since I adhere to the idea that if there is a god, he is an underachiever; we need to pick up the ball.

Charlie
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by MorePower on Jul 23rd, 2006, 12:09am
I can already see this thread going somewhere bad......Ill keep my Christian opinion to myself to save arguement
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by alienspacebabe on Jul 23rd, 2006, 12:12am

on 07/22/06 at 20:09:23, Paul98 wrote:
Should humans or “mother Nature” (your own God) dictate the future of the human race?    



Genetic engineering is different from genetic research. Think of writing and reading - both involved words, but far from the same thing.

As for "God":
As I said to my sister, "did you ever stop to think that perhaps God engineered everything to that we would move forward into this area?"  do not take this comment as my personal belief - it is merely a question
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by georgej on Jul 23rd, 2006, 12:27am
I don't think it's so much a question of whether or not we ought to genetically engineer our world as how we should deal with the engineering and the ethical questions that will inevitably occur.  You can't put the genie back in the bottle or undiscover fire.  There's too much power possible in gengineering for us to "forget" about it or to put it deliberately aside.  

On the other hand, I think we're a long way from being able to successfully "select" particular human personality characteristics, or human intelligence, or even physical appearance.  Too many factors enter into these things, only some of which are genetically determined.  Even identical twins have striking differences.  There's a great deal we don't know yet.  Decoding the genome was only the beginning.  

It's a fascinating prospect, and I think the potential exists for great good to come from it.  There is also the possibility of great evil:  Consider, for example, how someone or some government might create a virus or a prion that specifically targetted one gender or a particular ethnic group?  

Still, we have genetically engineered our world for thousands of years.  We've selectively bred many species.  Gengineering makes that process more efficient, true, but it doesn't really change the ball game.  Also, genetic material present in one species and alien to another routinely gets transferred around by natural viruses.  Old Mother does some gengineering of her own.  

One thing I think that may happen in the not-too-distant future is that we will begin to understand the "clock" that causes us to age--raising the possibility that we might "reset" it.  Ethical questions abound--will the rich live several hundred years while the rest of us toil and die?  Or--and I prefer to think this might happen, because it would increase the fun--what if it were so cheap that anyone could have it?  As Kurt Vonnegut said--the medicine for immortality is made from mud and dandelions--what then?  

I think we're going to face a bigger trauma dealing with the fact that our means of deriving ethical systems is far more primitive than our abilities in developing new technologies.  Sooner or later we're going to have to face that.  

Maybe we'll finally begin to grow up.

Best,

George  
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by StressFree on Jul 23rd, 2006, 3:15am
Sorry MorePower, but I've got to say what comes to my mind. It's pretty sad to hear so many without strong faith and some with no hope at all. There is a verse about "trampling (God) under foot". I think he has kept man from developing worse virus's and weapons of mass destruction far worse than nuclear bombs. He won't allow us to completely destroy the world or ourselves. So I also believe he will not allow a "brave new world" or "1984". Maybe we can continue to develop some good and useful technologies in science and biology, but I hope we aren't forgetting who laid it all out for us.
Rich
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by john_d on Jul 23rd, 2006, 6:12am

on 07/23/06 at 03:15:13, StressFree wrote:
I think he has kept man from developing worse virus's and weapons of mass destruction far worse than nuclear bombs.


Worse viruses and worse than a nuclear bomb?  You totally made that up.    ::)
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by BarbaraD on Jul 23rd, 2006, 7:26am
Years ago I read a book ("The Boys from Brazil") and it scared the hell out of me. In it some scientist were clonning Hitler and putting the clones in the same enviroment as he was. This could cause a lot of trouble down the line.....

I was raised Catholic (back in the Latin days) and have kneeled till my knees were killing me, but I still have "faith" that there is a God and he has a plan for each of us.

Research is good up to a point (I firmly believe in the stem cell stuff), but screwing with human genes is not good in my opinion.

Hugs BD
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Paul98 on Jul 23rd, 2006, 11:49am

on 07/23/06 at 00:27:25, georgej wrote:
I don't think it's so much a question of whether or not we ought to genetically engineer our world as how we should deal with the engineering and the ethical questions that will inevitably occur.  You can't put the genie back in the bottle or undiscover fire.  There's too much power possible in gengineering for us to "forget" about it or to put it deliberately aside.  

On the other hand, I think we're a long way from being able to successfully "select" particular human personality characteristics, or human intelligence, or even physical appearance.  Too many factors enter into these things, only some of which are genetically determined.  Even identical twins have striking differences.  There's a great deal we don't know yet.  Decoding the genome was only the beginning.  

It's a fascinating prospect, and I think the potential exists for great good to come from it.  There is also the possibility of great evil:  Consider, for example, how someone or some government might create a virus or a prion that specifically targetted one gender or a particular ethnic group?  

Still, we have genetically engineered our world for thousands of years.  We've selectively bred many species.  Gengineering makes that process more efficient, true, but it doesn't really change the ball game.  Also, genetic material present in one species and alien to another routinely gets transferred around by natural viruses.  Old Mother does some gengineering of her own.  

One thing I think that may happen in the not-too-distant future is that we will begin to understand the "clock" that causes us to age--raising the possibility that we might "reset" it.  Ethical questions abound--will the rich live several hundred years while the rest of us toil and die?  Or--and I prefer to think this might happen, because it would increase the fun--what if it were so cheap that anyone could have it?  As Kurt Vonnegut said--the medicine for immortality is made from mud and dandelions--what then?  

I think we're going to face a bigger trauma dealing with the fact that our means of deriving ethical systems is far more primitive than our abilities in developing new technologies.  Sooner or later we're going to have to face that.  

Maybe we'll finally begin to grow up.

Best,

George  



Thoughtful post George.  I agree that our "social ability" to deal with the technology we produce if very primitave.  It reminds me of a passage in a book I read a long time ago.  I don't remember the name of the book or the author but the passage read:  "We ate out knowledge to quickly"  Very profound words!

-P.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Sean_C on Jul 23rd, 2006, 12:07pm

on 07/23/06 at 00:27:25, georgej wrote:
I don't think it's so much a question of whether or not we ought to genetically engineer our world as how we should deal with the engineering and the ethical questions that will inevitably occur.  You can't put the genie back in the bottle or undiscover fire.  There's too much power possible in gengineering for us to "forget" about it or to put it deliberately aside.  

On the other hand, I think we're a long way from being able to successfully "select" particular human personality characteristics, or human intelligence, or even physical appearance.  Too many factors enter into these things, only some of which are genetically determined.  Even identical twins have striking differences.  There's a great deal we don't know yet.  Decoding the genome was only the beginning.  

It's a fascinating prospect, and I think the potential exists for great good to come from it.  There is also the possibility of great evil:  Consider, for example, how someone or some government might create a virus or a prion that specifically targetted one gender or a particular ethnic group?  

Still, we have genetically engineered our world for thousands of years.  We've selectively bred many species.  Gengineering makes that process more efficient, true, but it doesn't really change the ball game.  Also, genetic material present in one species and alien to another routinely gets transferred around by natural viruses.  Old Mother does some gengineering of her own.  

One thing I think that may happen in the not-too-distant future is that we will begin to understand the "clock" that causes us to age--raising the possibility that we might "reset" it.  Ethical questions abound--will the rich live several hundred years while the rest of us toil and die?  Or--and I prefer to think this might happen, because it would increase the fun--what if it were so cheap that anyone could have it?  As Kurt Vonnegut said--the medicine for immortality is made from mud and dandelions--what then?  

I think we're going to face a bigger trauma dealing with the fact that our means of deriving ethical systems is far more primitive than our abilities in developing new technologies.  Sooner or later we're going to have to face that.  

Maybe we'll finally begin to grow up.

Best,

George  



Very well written IMHO George. Progress is something that we inevitably will have to deal with in our future, it just can't be stopped, its impossible. Someone, somewhere will always be working on a cure, a disease, a clone, a bomb, peace, or living on another planet etc etc.

We've come in a time in history where we have the technology and resources to work through these processes, its religion, politicians, and world leaders that will cause the process to "slow down" AND "speed up".

I'm all for progress, nobody can determine anothers misuse of it, but it will, and thats something we'll have to deal with as it arises, you can't stop that either.

Sean.........................................
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Paul98 on Jul 23rd, 2006, 6:05pm

on 07/23/06 at 00:09:51, MorePower wrote:
I can already see this thread going somewhere bad......Ill keep my Christian opinion to myself to save arguement


No need to keep the opinion to your self.  An opinion is neither wright or wrong.  Opinions are what I was looking for in this thread I started.  

As far as this thread bringing something bad, it hasn't so far.  I think the posts to it have been great.  

I welcome your thoughts about this.

-P.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by andrewjb on Jul 23rd, 2006, 7:26pm
WE ARE OUR OWN CREATORS ! POLITICS / RELIGION , ARE LEECHES ON GREED OR FEAR. DONT LET THE BUGGERS GET YOU DOWN.THERE ARE NO QUICK ANSWERS.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by vig on Jul 23rd, 2006, 7:37pm
As humans, we have always been genetic engineers.

Look at plants/seeds and hybrids...
Look at the dog world, horses, and breeding....

Now we just have WAAAAY better tools.

However, that does not leave us without ethical responsibilities so we get to discuss all the possibilities out in the open.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by andrewjb on Jul 23rd, 2006, 7:42pm
:).a lot of long hard discussion,the odd cool beer.and gentle with the morality.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by andrewjb on Jul 23rd, 2006, 8:19pm
i did not mean to be flipant. politicians..........judging by history have put boarders in the wrong place for the people " with best intrest at hart  " i would like to think so,but history speaks for its self. God..........the study of God is theolegy.is it possable to have an adult discussion on a very important a subject ?
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Paul98 on Jul 23rd, 2006, 9:28pm

on 07/23/06 at 19:37:50, vig wrote:
As humans, we have always been genetic engineers.

Look at plants/seeds and hybrids...
Look at the dog world, horses, and breeding....

Now we just have WAAAAY better tools.

However, that does not leave us without ethical responsibilities so we get to discuss all the possibilities out in the open.


Yes, man has manipulatet geenes for a long time but it has been under the umbrella of natural selection.  Take human sperm and implant it into a a zebra, what do you get....nothing.  it will not even implant into the egg.  Now take some genes of man and intooduce it into a zebras egg... what do you get?  See my point?  there is a very big difference between natural selection, be it designed mating between receptive species and stuffing genes where they would not naturally (through natural selection) be found.  Big, big difference.  

-P.
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by Charlie on Jul 24th, 2006, 2:50am
The funny thing about this is that by his veto, Dubya has increased stem cell research. It's always been about Federal money that makes neo conservatives look good to the religious right. It gets votes for doing nothing.

It turns out that since the veto, many more millions of private funds and grants than were expected have shaken loose in response.

Dumbth. http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/standart/read.gif?SSImageQuality=Full

Charlie
Title: Re: Genetic research and God
Post by rickyshot on Jul 24th, 2006, 9:57am
I believe in God and revelational knowlege. The mystery is the timing of the knowlege.

What man does with this knowlege is another story altogether. The mystery of free will which is a great form of love on our maker's part.

There are so many ethical questions and this will not go away. Great things can come out of it as well as great evil. LIfe is usually a two sided coin


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