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(Message started by: karma on Jun 22nd, 2006, 4:25pm)
Title: I cannot understand this
Post by karma on Jun 22nd, 2006, 4:25pm
"I know everything happens for a reason and god has a plan, but........ "

This sentiment or a similar one gets repeated over and over again in all aspects of ones life.
I just can't understand how people can think like this. I was rasied catholic and went through all the ceremonies but I guess it just never stuck. lol

The idea that "god" no matter what shape or size you believe him to be is all powerful and all knowing and caring and merciful and all the rest of the nonsense attached to a godly figure but lets people suffer day after day , year after year is beyond my abiilty to comprehend.
Do people really believe that they are suffering for religious reasons or is religion a convenient crutch to get through unexplained and "unfair" personal suffering?
Why is ones god better than others? Why is one religion better than others? Everyone suffers regardless of there religion.
I just don't get it.
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Sandy_C on Jun 22nd, 2006, 4:40pm
Karma, I'm sorry you are having a bad time of it.  I just wanted to respond to you because I don't think you are going to get many takers into a discussion about God allowing us to suffer - at least not from me.

I just want to let you know that we're here and we care.

Sandy
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Mattrf on Jun 22nd, 2006, 4:44pm
I do believe in god, but do not know why he lets me and so many others suffer.
This is always a touchy subject and I am sure there will be many responses to your topic on both sides as far as myself I truly think he is there and has a plan for all of us and that suffering for some of us is part of it I guess. I find myself asking god often why it is that I have to suffer so and what have I done to deserve this, I may not know the answer to this question until I am at the pearly gates, I just hope if he lets me enjoy my PF time as much as I can and help me to deal with the time with the pain as best I can. In my darkest moments, my faith is all I have to cling to, and I am glad I have it.
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by brewcrew on Jun 22nd, 2006, 4:44pm

on 06/22/06 at 16:25:52, karma wrote:
The idea that "god" no matter what shape or size you believe him to be is all powerful and all knowing and caring and merciful and all the rest of the nonsense attached to a godly figure but lets people suffer day after day , year after year is beyond my abiilty to comprehend.

Many religions explain this phenomenon as that of the "fallen angel." That at one time there was no evil until the fallen angel became evil incarnate, the devil.

It's all a metaphor in my mind. Sometimes people need a simpler explanation, one that points to the supernatural to explain that which we cannot possibly comprehend. Personnally, I prefer not comprehending it. Maybe someday it'll be made known to me (in the afterlife), or maybe I'll just enjoy sweet, sweet peace and nothingness in the isolation of my grave. I won't know until I get there.
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by maffumatt on Jun 22nd, 2006, 4:49pm
God is what he is. He is many things to many different peoples. Who knows why things happen as they do, and to presume that you do know would be raising yourselves to Gods level. You  either have faith or you don't. You either believe or you don't. It is the most personal choice a person can make.

I hope you find what your looking for.
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by pattik on Jun 22nd, 2006, 5:18pm
Hey karma--I think it's all about "karma". ;;D --but not karma from just this go-round.  Hells bells, where's Frank when I need him (he has a much better way with words about this stuff than I).  Anyway, I think it is about pain vs. suffering, and suffering gives pain a meaning that makes us better able to deal with things.  I think thats how religion can help along those lines. :-/
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Langa on Jun 22nd, 2006, 5:35pm
Hi Robbie -

Crystal and I were talking about this very same thing last night.  

I think suffering builds preserverance, depth and character.  

Those who I know that have had none, have none of the above.

Why God allows suffering of good people...?  I'll go crazy if I try to figure that out and I know I never will - my Mom taught me that early in life.  So I'll just continue to keep the faith the gets me through the dark times.  

I hope you find some peace.

Love,
Maria
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by brewcrew on Jun 22nd, 2006, 6:19pm
At the very least, pain and suffering give you perspective on how wonderful life can be when you have no pain and suffering.
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Opus on Jun 22nd, 2006, 6:32pm
Most people confuse the suffering that happens here on Earth with God's will. God's will is for no one to suffer and he set things up that way in the beginning. But God also gave us free will Because He didn't want people to just blindly follow Him, but to follow on their own accord.  

 What happened ( as you have probably heard) that the first man and woman disobeyed God, and therefore had to leave paradise. In the act of disobeying God, they not only were given knowledge but also Gave the enemy of God control over the Earth. Because God gave us free will He could not make things right again with out taking it back. So he devised another plan (which you probably know about also ) which involved giving up His Son for us. This act did not end suffering, out suffering comes from Satan, because we gave him control over the Earth. We suffer and will continue to do so until the Earth is destroyed.

I am  Christian but not in the way most people think of one. I hate all religions,  ceremonies, sacrifices, rituals and the organizations that promote them and use them to gain power. Religion is man made. There are a lot of churches out there which are not fakes, but ultimately faith in a building, group or a person will not help you.

If you desire to really know God, then all you have to do is ask. Prayer is nothing more than talking to God who is unseen. It must come from your heart. Just ask that He becomes real to you in a way He chooses, and I'm sure  it will happen. Remember God works in mysterious ways so don't disbelieve because of how it happens.

Opus/Paul
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Ree on Jun 22nd, 2006, 6:40pm
What I believe is that we are here on Earth and that what we do here on Earth is a lesson, that life has a plan.  That we make choices and that everything happens for a "reason".  The people we meet in life are also teachers and students in this grand lesson.  
  I also don't think we are like God's game pieces. I don't think God has anything to do with anyone suffering or not.  But, and this is a big but... I have been taught that if you suffer it brings you closer to God ie: Jesus.....but what I believe is that its probably because he can relate to you because HE suffered on the cross. And don't we all feel closer to those that suffer as we do (Like CH.com for instance)
 What I believe...is that there are many roads to God.  I had a hard time when my Dad suffered as he did a year ago too and thats what kind of convinced me that a loving God wouldn't want anyone to suffer.  We are on our own here.  God knows what is right and just for all of us here.  It's already planned...... but this is MY opinion and MY belief..... take whatcha need and leave the rest......love ree
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Cathi04 on Jun 22nd, 2006, 7:19pm
I, too, am a spiritual person. Nothing to do with organized religion, Karma. It's simply a mortal's interpretation of the word of God, and I don't believe we have that choice.
I DO, however believe God does not give people CH as a punishment, if he did, boy do I know a lot of people he's missed so far! This is a medical affliction, simply the luck of the draw. I also believe, by having a relationship with God it CAN help us to cope with whatever we deal with day-to-day.As Ree said above, there are many roads that lead to God....
I dont understand why ANYONE should be allowed to suffer the kind of pain a CH suffers-but I don't know why infants have to die, either.
I was once told God never gives us more than we can handle..sometimes I wonder if he is aware of our capacity, actually.
What it all comes down to, in my opinion, there is no real good reason why you were "chosen"........it simply is what it is......and I'm sorry. I still feel CHers are the strongest people I have ever met in my life......
Maybe you're here to teach me about strength....  :-/
Fervently wishing you all PFDAN
Cathi
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Ree on Jun 22nd, 2006, 7:53pm

on 06/22/06 at 18:32:28, Opus wrote:
Most people confuse the suffering that happens here on Earth with God's will. God's will is for no one to suffer and he set things up that way in the beginning. But God also gave us free will Because He didn't want people to just blindly follow Him, but to follow on their own accord.  

 What happened ( as you have probably heard) that the first man and woman disobeyed God, and therefore had to leave paradise. In the act of disobeying God, they not only were given knowledge but also Gave the enemy of God control over the Earth. Because God gave us free will He could not make things right again with out taking it back. So he devised another plan (which you probably know about also ) which involved giving up His Son for us. This act did not end suffering, out suffering comes from Satan, because we gave him control over the Earth. We suffer and will continue to do so until the Earth is destroyed.

I am  Christian but not in the way most people think of one. I hate all religions,  ceremonies, sacrifices, rituals and the organizations that promote them and use them to gain power. Religion is man made. There are a lot of churches out there which are not fakes, but ultimately faith in a building, group or a person will not help you.

If you desire to really know God, then all you have to do is ask. Prayer is nothing more than talking to God who is unseen. It must come from your heart. Just ask that He becomes real to you in a way He chooses, and I'm sure  it will happen. Remember God works in mysterious ways so don't disbelieve because of how it happens.

Opus/Paul
  paul...this is one awesome post... thanks   Ree
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by tanner on Jun 22nd, 2006, 7:58pm
 Karma, I saw your post as soon as it came up and chose not to respond as I was getting hit hard right then and you were talking about what I consider to be the most important discussion that has been brought to this board in a long time!

 I was brought up Baptist (not Southern) and I married a Catholic girl. I was at the time I met Linda seriously considering becoming a youth Minister in my church. Then came Vietnam and my first chance to see and get to know some very wonderful Buddhist monks. War really makes you wonder about Gods plan and stewardship.

After coming home I chanced in to a neighborhood of Wiccans, and I don't mean kids or idiots playing with spells, but a committed group of people that worshiped a Goddess figure that I had never taken seriously. I started to look at my own faith and decided that I had much study to do. I became friends with people of the Jewish faith and people who were native Americans and worshiped a number of Gods. Talk about confused!

I did not have the opportunity to get to know any Muslims, but I did make a good friend who is Hindu and am still corresponding with a Harri Krishna follower. I have reached the conclusion that God IS!

If your religion is teaching that you will only attain Heaven or Nirvana or any of the other names for the next step by believing only to follow their precepts and everyone else is doomed then you need to look again.

God is not monoscopic and is fully aware and in charge even if it means great pain and sacrifice while we search and discover the truths that He intended us to find on our own in this life or the next!

I believe!    I don't know how to categorize myself nor do I feel the need to do so anymore!

God Bless you my friend.  Tim
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Charlie on Jun 22nd, 2006, 9:06pm
So sorry that you're getting hit so hard. Only we fully understand this horror.

I do understand your comments on faith. I truly envy people that are sure of something more.  As my Lutheran mother used to say: "Wouldn't it be nice if it's true..." http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/omg smiley.gif

Mean old Charlie
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Jonny on Jun 22nd, 2006, 9:11pm
As my car goes over a 600 foot cliff I will scream "Oh God help me".....other than that I dont believe shit!
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Mrs Deej on Jun 22nd, 2006, 10:18pm
Karma,

I stummbled upon your post this afternoon about 4, here it is 9, and I'm still pondering the question.  However, these are my thoughts...not intended to offend anyone.  Just my  [smiley=twocents.gif]  

I too, have asked myself the same question..."why do people...good people, and bad...suffer?"  I have had a hell of a life and I'm so young, I have learned reality is, what it is, if you can't change it, don't worry about it and go on.  Roll with the punches my friend...no one said this was going to be an easy ride.

I have learned to embrace problems as gifts.  They are a part of life.  Some hit a problem and stop dead in their tracks, while others find something useful in problems.  I used to be the person who just stopped and thought, "my life is over...someone just put me out of my misery".  Instead of looking for a way out of your problems, you may want to consider two other places to look which will get you through them: upward and inward.  Once you've gone upward (to Him), the opportunity for a journey inside yourself will show itself and allow you to teach yourself valuable lessons.  It will allow you to shine a lantern of truth into the recesses of your heart, illuminating attitudes, old wounds, fresh hurts, weaknesses, and new perspectives.  With the help of my husband (and giving it 'Up'), I have learned to do just this.  We have no control over the things that happen to us, good, bad, or indifferent, that is why I firmly believe everything happens for a reason.  If it's meant to be, it'll happen.  And our problems are a way to find opportunity, not doubt.

I don't know, call me crazy, I just got so sick and tired of everything bad happening, but when I started looking at it deeply, (and honestly spiritually), not analytically, I found the good.

I don't go to church every Sunday and Wednesday...and...you get the point.  But I found what works for me, and I've never been happier.  I don't dwell.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, and i don't want y'all to think I'm preaching by any means, just thought I'd share my thoughts.

Always... [smiley=hug.gif]
MrsDeej
 

 
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Jimi on Jun 22nd, 2006, 10:49pm
Never be ashamed to share the things that are important to you. Those are good words and it didn't appear to be preaching to me. You were sharing your thoughts. You are not only pretty on the outside, but you are pretty on the inside and that is what is the most important anyway. DJ, where did you find this jewel? See you guys in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Melissa on Jun 22nd, 2006, 10:53pm
Steph, I feel like you read my mind.  I think you and I will get along just fine. ;;D

;)mel
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by karma on Jun 23rd, 2006, 8:57am
Thanks to everyone for responding.
I appreciate the concern shown on my behalf but rest assured that things are going well for me. Maybe thats why I began to question "why"
Why is it that I have a reasonably good life and have no structured religious beliefs while others who are seemingly devout are suffereing terribly?
Maybe one day I will figure it out.
Peace
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by zwibbs/Scott on Jun 23rd, 2006, 9:09am
The whole basis of my faith is the element of " Hope." Without hope , you have nothing. I learned a long time ago that comparing what I have, and others have--never is a true picture. Sort of like the " Grass being greener on the other side." My wife's family is based on who owns what and how much money they make. The interesting thing is that they are never ever happy. I own shit and I'm happy. As for God...He will accept everyone who calls upon Him. When Jonny says he'll call on God when he's driven off a cliff , God will be there. When you pray everyday--God will be there.  It is what makes you happy and what brings you peace in you heart. I am Catholic and interestingly today is the feast of " The Sacred Heart of Jesus."
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by ShadowLord on Jun 23rd, 2006, 9:10am

on 06/22/06 at 21:11:29, Jonny wrote:
As my car goes over a 600 foot cliff I will scream "Oh God help me".....other than that I dont believe shit!

I hope to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather... Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

PFDAN.................................................................... ShadowLord
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Jun 23rd, 2006, 10:18am
Forgive me, as I know what I am about to say is going to go over like a fart in church.

Karma, I hear you about your points.  My feeling is that people use God as a crutch.  
Take athletes for an example: in interviews before the sports event, everybody is praying to god, but in the interviews after the event, only the winners are still talking about god.  You never hear the second place runner say:" Well, I tried my best, but god fucked me on this one"  You never hear " I prayed to god, but he must not have heard me, cause I didnt win"

Why is religion and the belief in god seemingly only used during fair weather?  
Why is it that people thanked god if their family survived Katrina, but nobody cursed god when they had a death in their family?
Why is it that on good days people thank god, but on bad days they dont?
Why is it that when there is a horrific accident that someone lived through, people say god was watching over them, but when there was a death in the accident, people dont say that?

Is god only a fair weathered friend?

B$
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by nani on Jun 23rd, 2006, 10:23am
To me... it's not why we suffer, it's about what we do with it. Do we learn and become better people?
Or...do we get stuck in endless round of bitter "Why me?"
I take the Eastern philosiphy route. We come into this life wanting to grow and learn. Therefore, whatever befalls us, good or bad, serves to teach us the lessons we've asked for.
God isn't good or bad. God just "is".
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by FramCire on Jun 23rd, 2006, 10:37am
1. B$:  Players on both teams (in the NFl at least) get together at midfield for a prayer.  So your contention that only the winners thank God is incorrect.

Also, if you talk to a athlete who believes in God you will often hear them praise him even in defeat.

2.  As for the suffering issue, it is actually quite simple if you look at things from a larger perspective.  IF (that is an if) you believe in God and heaven, it is easy to understand that without suffering, we cannot have enjoyment.  Our suffering on earth is very miniscule compared to the joy of heaven.  When you can understand that (which I don't think is easy), you can then understand that the suffering isn't really all that bad.  

It is also important to understand that God (IMO) created us to have the free will to love Him or not.  In order to do this, people have to have the ability to understand pain, sin, and hatred in order to chose His love.  

We, as humans, often view the extremes of pain and joy with worldly events.  To know that there is greater joy available in the afterlife makes it easy to understand why suffering is needed.

I hope this makes sense.  Think of it this way.  Think of the suffering you have during a particularly bad day with your HAs.  Then think of how much you enjoy the PF days now.  Now, think of what it will be like when all your pain is gone and you KNOW it wont ever return.  This is only a SMALL part of the joy of heaven.  Without the pain though, the joy would be replaced by apathy since without pain, there is no pleasure.

Anyhow, this thread also shows the awesomeness of this place.  A discussion about God with many different views but no name calling or insulting other's beliefs.  Seriously folks, it is nice to be able to discuss this in this manner.  
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by jimmers on Jun 23rd, 2006, 10:38am
I am Catholic,

I believe we are all taking a big exam, but most of the answers are multiple choice.

Whenever I think I have it so bad, all I have to do is look around at others and my problems don't seem so big anymore.

We are put here to help people whenever we can, and this board is a fine example. God Bless all of you!

Jimmers
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by brewcrew on Jun 23rd, 2006, 10:43am

on 06/23/06 at 10:38:57, jimmers wrote:
I am Catholic,

I believe we are all taking a big exam, but most of the answers are multiple choice.

Whenever I think I have it so bad, all I have to do is look around at others and my problems don't seem so big anymore.

We are put here to help people whenever we can, and this board is a fine example. God Bless all of you!

Jimmers

Jimmers - This kind of stuff is going to absolutely trash your reputation!  ;;D
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by jimmers on Jun 23rd, 2006, 11:16am
Damn,

Now everyone will know that I really am a nice guy! Talk about screwing up! ;;D

Jimmers
Title: Re: I cannot understand this  
Post by Paul98 on Jun 23rd, 2006, 12:54pm
For what is't worth, from my perspective, without some pain and suffering, the good, joy and happiness that life has to offer (notice I didn't say give because you have to seek it out) would not seem so sweet.  It gives meaning and appreciation to the good thing in life.

-P.
Title: Re: I cannot understand this  
Post by LeLimey on Jun 23rd, 2006, 1:10pm

on 06/23/06 at 12:54:00, Paul98 wrote:
For what is't worth, from my perspective, without some pain and suffering, the good, joy and happiness that life has to offer (notice I didn't say give because you have to seek it out) would not seem so sweet.  It gives meaning and appreciation to the good thing in life.

-P.


Couldn't agree more Paul.
I also know that without the tough things I've gone through I wouldn't be the person I am.
So its not my fault okay?!  ;)
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by Charlie on Jun 23rd, 2006, 1:22pm
Woody Allen once said that if there is a god, with the available evidence he suspects that he's simply an underachiever.

Charlie http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/themes/kolobok-light/images/smiles/unknw.gif?SSImageQuality=Full
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by tanner on Jun 23rd, 2006, 1:46pm

on 06/23/06 at 10:38:57, jimmers wrote:
I am Catholic,

I believe we are all taking a big exam, but most of the answers are multiple choice.

Whenever I think I have it so bad, all I have to do is look around at others and my problems don't seem so big anymore.

We are put here to help people whenever we can, and this board is a fine example. God Bless all of you!

Jimmers


 Damn, Jimmers I ramble on and on to try to say what you summed up in three lines :(.

Xept for the I'm Catholic part. I am the next best thing tho, my mother in law goes to mass every single day come hell or high water and I know a lot of the prayers she says and the candles she lights are for me....is that a good thing........Tim
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by imnotbub on Jun 23rd, 2006, 2:18pm
I believe that there is a supreme being of some sort, but thats about the extent of it. I don't believe that 'He' has any input in our lives. Those that have come before us and tried to convey guidelines set by 'Him' as how to live were just pointing us in a direction that will give hope.  Religion is man made, created to keep the masses in check. Imagine an existance in abject poverty, surrounded by suffering, and having nothing 'to look forward to'. That's depressing. Humans are the only 'animal' that is aware of there own mortality. Without religion, many would be very scared all the time. Hell, many are scared all the time anyway, religion at least keeps them from losing it.

I believe this constitutes 4 cents worth. [smiley=twocents.gif] [smiley=twocents.gif]

Steve
Title: Re: I cannot understand this
Post by jimmers on Jun 23rd, 2006, 8:18pm
Tim,

The answer is an astounding YES!

Hey, it can't hurt.

Jimmers


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