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        New Message Board Archives >> 2006 General Board Posts >> Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
        
(Message started by: Redd715 on May 22nd, 2006, 2:08pm)
Title: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Redd715 on May 22nd, 2006, 2:08pm
A man eats two eggs each morning for breakfast. When he goes to the grocery store he pays .60 cents a dozen. Since a dozen eggs won't last a week he normally buys two dozens at a time.


One day while buying eggs he notices that the price has risen to 72 cents. The next time he buys groceries, eggs are .76 cents a dozen. When asked to explain the price of eggs the store owner says, "the price has gone up and I have to raise my price accordingly".


This store buys 100 dozen eggs a day. I checked around for a better price and all the distributors have raised their prices. The distributors have begun to buy from the huge egg farms. The small egg farms have been driven out of business.


The huge egg farms sells 100,000 dozen eggs a day to distributors. With no competition, they can set the price as they see fit. The distributors then have to raise their prices to the grocery stores. And on and on and on. As the man kept buying eggs the price kept going up. He saw the big egg trucks delivering 100 dozen eggs each day. Nothing changed there.


He checked out the huge egg farms and found they were selling 100,000 dozen eggs to the distributors daily. Nothing had changed but the price of eggs.


Then week before Thanksgiving the price of eggs shot up to $1.00 a dozen. Again he asked the grocery owner why and was told, "cakes and baking for the holiday". The huge egg farmers know there will be a lot of baking going on and more eggs will be used. Hence, the price of eggs goes up. Expect the same thing at Christmas and other times when family cooking, baking, etc. happen.


This pattern continues un til the price of eggs is 2.00 a dozen. The man says,"there must be something we can do about the price of eggs".


He starts talking to all the people in his town and they decide to stop buying eggs. This didn't work because everyone needed eggs. Finally, the man suggested only buying what you need.


He ate 2 eggs a day. On the way home from work he would stop at the grocery and buy two eggs. Everyone in town started buying 2 or 3 eggs a day.


The grocery store owner began complaining that he had too many eggs in his cooler. He told the distributor that he didn't need any eggs. Maybe wouldn't need any all week.


The distributor had eggs piling up at his warehouse. He told the huge egg farms that he didn't have any room for eggs would not need any for at least two weeks.


At the egg farm, the chickens just kept on laying eggs.


To relieve the pressure, the huge egg farm told the distributor that they could buy the eggs at a lower price. The distributor said, " I don't have the room for the %$&^*&% eggs even if they were free".


The distributor told the grocery store owner that he would lower the price of the eggs if the store would start buying again. The grocery store owner said, "I don't have room for more eggs. The customers are only buy 2 or 3 eggs at a time". "Now if you were to drop the price of eggs back down to the original price, the customers would start buying by the dozen again".


The distributors sent that proposal to the huge egg farmers. They liked the price they were getting for their eggs but, them chickens just kept on laying.


Finally, the egg farmers lowered the price of their eggs. But only a few cents. The customers still bought 2 or 3 eggs at a time. They said, "when the price of eggs gets down to where it was before, we will start buying by the dozen."


Slowly the price of eggs started dro pping. The distributors had to slash their prices to make room for the eggs coming from the egg farmers. The egg farmers cut their prices because the distributors wouldn't buy at a higher price than they were selling eggs for.


Anyway, they had full warehouses and wouldn't need eggs for quite a while.


And them chickens kept on laying.


Eventually, the egg farmers cut their prices because they were throwing away eggs they couldn't sell. The distributors started buying again because the eggs were priced to where the stores could afford to sell them at the lower price.


And the customers starting buying by the dozen again.


Now, transpose this analogy to the gasoline industry.


What if everyone only bought $10.00 worth of gas each time they pulled to the pump. The dealers tanks would stay semi full all the time. The dealers wouldn't have room for the gas coming from the huge tank farms. The tank farms wouldn't have room for the gas coming from the refining plants. And the refining plants wouldn't have room for the oil being off loaded from the huge tankers coming from the Middle East.


Just $10.00 each time you buy gas. Don't fill it up. You may have to stop for gas twice a week but, the price should come down.


Think about it.


As an added note...When I buy $10.00 worth of gas,that leaves my tank a little under half full. The way prices are jumping around, you can buy gas for $2.65 a gallon and then the next morning it can be $2.15. If you have your tank full of $2.65 gas you don't have room for the $2.15 gas. You might not understand the economics of only buying two eggs at a time but, you can't buy cheaper gas if your tank is full of the high priced stuff.


Also, don't buy anything else at the gas station, don't give them any more of your hard earned money than what you spend on gas, until the prices come down..
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by echo on May 22nd, 2006, 2:21pm
Hmmmmmmm

Might work.

good point about having room in your tank for cheaper gas.  Still amazes me how the price per gallon can jump around like it does.  It  will definately go up for next weekends holiday travel.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by imnotbub on May 22nd, 2006, 2:47pm
I think this may work, in theory, but wouldn't it create longer lines at the pump? Twice as many people buying gas every day. Whatcha think?

Steve
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Redd715 on May 22nd, 2006, 3:05pm
I don't think there would be any lines anywhere, in fact if we are only putting in 10 bucks at a time, it would be faster at the pump as well.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by thomas on May 22nd, 2006, 3:15pm

on 05/22/06 at 14:47:06, imnotbub wrote:
I think this may work, in theory, but wouldn't it create longer lines at the pump? Twice as many people buying gas every day. Whatcha think?

Steve

Twice?  Try 5-10 times.  Most people buy guys once or twice a week, if we did it daily the traffic at stations would increase from 5-10 times daily.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 22nd, 2006, 3:16pm
While this would seem all well and good, gas doesn't spoil, for the most part, like eggs would.  Additionally, $10 in gas is only around 3.5 gallons.  You would be filling up way more than twice a week.  It works on paper but in real life, not so much.  

Now if we, as a country, cut our usage 3%, we wouldn't have as much foreign oil coming in and the price would drop.  Or, take crude oil off the commodities market.  Butter and butter fat was put on the commodities market 5 years ago and the price went through the roof for everything, butter, baked goods, even ice cream.  The price fluctuates with the market, not the seasons, ie; Christmas, Thanksgiving.  

Just some food,  ;;D, for thought...

PS and BTW, just found this... http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/eggs.asp
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by FramCire on May 22nd, 2006, 3:36pm
If gas stations don't make enough money selling other stuff, wouldn't it follow that they will raise the price of gas to make up for it.  Consumption will go down for a short amount of time but then be right back where it was later (after they have raised the prices).

Honestly, the egg scenario is COMPLETELY different.  People don't NEED eggs, they NEED gas.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by BobG on May 22nd, 2006, 3:42pm
It sounds good in theory. But, it is flawed.

If you buy only $10 at a time but continues to drive the same amount of miles you will only be spending more time pumping gas. If you "need" $30 each week you'll have to buy 3 times a week instead of once.

The only way it would work is to buy the $10 and then cut the miles down to where you only "need" $10 worth.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by floridian on May 22nd, 2006, 3:45pm
Won't work.  If Joe used to buy all his gas at Citgo, and now only buys half, that is negated by Fred, who used to buy all his gas at Exxon, but now buys half at Citgo.

The only way to reduce demand is to reduce demand.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Melissa on May 22nd, 2006, 3:58pm

on 05/22/06 at 15:15:24, thomas wrote:
Most people buy guys once or twice a week

And the name of this store that stocks such a commodity would be? ;;D

;)
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by JeffB on May 22nd, 2006, 4:11pm
How about throwing eggs at oil traders everyday. It's those fockers who set the prices. This has been coming for years, they have been conditioning us for this, get used to it!...........
Did someone hear a bell?


Pavlov
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Jonny on May 22nd, 2006, 4:15pm
http://www.local6.com/news/9252125/detail.html
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by medic1852 on May 22nd, 2006, 4:24pm

on 05/22/06 at 16:15:52, Jonny wrote:
http://www.local6.com/news/9252125/detail.html

THATS GREAT
Rodger
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Carl_D on May 22nd, 2006, 7:48pm

on 05/22/06 at 15:15:24, thomas wrote:
Twice?  Try 5-10 times.  Most people buy guys once or twice a week, if we did it daily the traffic at stations would increase from 5-10 times daily.


Now TELL me that was a typo please!

ROTFLMMFAO!
[smiley=crackup.gif] [smiley=crackup.gif] [smiley=crackup.gif] [smiley=crackup.gif]
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by E-Double on May 22nd, 2006, 8:07pm

on 05/22/06 at 19:48:04, Carl_D wrote:
Now TELL me that was a typo please!

ROTFLMMFAO!
[smiley=crackup.gif] [smiley=crackup.gif] [smiley=crackup.gif] [smiley=crackup.gif]

;;D
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by E-Double on May 22nd, 2006, 8:09pm

on 05/22/06 at 16:15:52, Jonny wrote:
http://www.local6.com/news/9252125/detail.html


The way things are now I'd be happy paying $2.79
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Jonny on May 22nd, 2006, 8:10pm

on 05/22/06 at 20:09:02, E-Double wrote:
The way things are now I'd be happy paying $2.79


Then youll probably hate me when I tell you that I have not paid for gas in well over a decade.....LOL ;;D
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by E-Double on May 22nd, 2006, 8:12pm

on 05/22/06 at 20:10:52, Jonny wrote:
Then youll probably hate me when I tell you that I have not paid for gas in well over a decade.....LOL ;;D

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/E-double/whiner.gif
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Jonny on May 22nd, 2006, 8:14pm
LMMFAO....E-Dude.....LOL ;;D
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Opus on May 22nd, 2006, 8:42pm
If they buys eggs 2 or three at a time instead of by the dozen they are still buying the same amount of eggs. The3 man who eats 2 eggs a day doesn't eat less he just buys them every day instead of once a week. There is no change in demand, just a change in demand for full dozen verses single egg sales. Of course all that would need to be done is to make eggs salable by the full dozen as is the case now. The only real way for the people to reduce the price of eggs while still using them would be to raise there own chickens. Of course this would raise the price of chicken feed accordingly.

If I bought $10 of gas everyday instead of $20 every 2 days I would see a slight savings with the vehicle carrying less weight but that would be offset by the cost of driving to the gas station everyday, and the extra wear on the vehicle from using the brakes and the extra engine start.

There is no way to break a Monopoly, in this case OPEC, unless you live without what they control. Don't buy any eggs, don't use any oil products.

More realistic would be to break a monopoly where the need isn't actually there. For example if we all stopped buying new computers with Microsoft Windows preinstalled and upgrades for Microsoft Windows for used computers, and instead bought Apple Macs with OS X installed, or computers built from parts with GNU/Linux installed, or upgrade used computers with GNU/Linux we could all break the unnecessary monopoly of Microsoft Windows operating systems.

Opus/Paul
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by tommyD on May 23rd, 2006, 6:46am
Want the price of gas to come down?

Buy a bicycle. Walk to work. Carpool. Trade in your SUV. (After all, why do you need a three-ton, eight-cylinder, four-wheel drive, high-ground clearance vehicle to drive down to the grocery store?)

These little boycott tricks - buying half a tank, buying a certain brand, buying on this day but not on that - are just that: little. They have little or no effect on overall demand, and only serve as a distraction. Only an actual, long-term reduction in consumption will make a difference.

But you can use less, starting immediately: this morning, on your way to work, SLOW THE FUCK DOWN!

-tommyD
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by BarbaraD on May 23rd, 2006, 7:04am
I'm not sure how it works, but I have a client who runs his truck on PEANUT OIL. Really!  When he starts the darn thing it smells like someone would ask you if you want catshup with your fries, but the truck runs fine and it only costs him very little. He has a fish place where he gets their "used" peanut oil in 50 gallon drums.

There's something on the net that tells how to convert your vehicle to peanut oil...

This might work.

Hugs BD
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by floridian on May 23rd, 2006, 7:18am
Peanut oil (or any vegetable oil) can be used in a modified diesel engine.  It makes sense to keep adding biodiesel vehicles to a point.  Right now, fast food joints treat used oil like a waste, so its good to use it.  But eventually, if the number of biodiesel cars and trucks increases, they will compete with each other for that resource.  Fresh vegetable oil still costs more than regular diesel oil, so we can't convert everyone.  But it may shave a few points off our petrochemical dependency.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by DonnaHar on May 23rd, 2006, 8:33am
How many of you have access to mass public transportation?  Do you use busses?

We do not have bus service here in Englewood, and larger cities in this part of Florida have very limited service.

When I  was a young wife, we didn't have a car for awhile.  Shopping was done by bus.....getting to work was over an hour bus ride and in the winter it depended on how deep the snow was.  

If it was available, I certainly would be using it.


Edited to make note that the above mentioned snow was in Cleveland, Ohio.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by deltadarlin on May 23rd, 2006, 12:05pm

on 05/23/06 at 06:46:36, tommyD wrote:
Want the price of gas to come down?

Buy a bicycle. Walk to work. Carpool. -tommyD


Hmm, don't think your suggestions will work for me.  I travel apprx. 2500 miles a month, all work related.  I literally cover the north half of Louisiana.  Don't think I could bicycle to the places I need to be.  Can't carpool either, noone to carpool with.  Walk?  Don't think so.

If you live in the city, public transportation is okay.  If you live in the country, the only *public* transportation you might find is everybody piled into the back of the pickup truck or pulling a trailer with the tractor.

The only way to decrease the price of oil/gas is to decrease our dependance on it (or start drilling in numerous places in the US and that is still only a temporary fix).
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 23rd, 2006, 12:09pm

on 05/23/06 at 07:04:17, BarbaraD wrote:
I'm not sure how it works, but I have a client who runs his truck on PEANUT OIL. Really!  When he starts the darn thing it smells like someone would ask you if you want catshup with your fries, but the truck runs fine and it only costs him very little. He has a fish place where he gets their "used" peanut oil in 50 gallon drums.

There's something on the net that tells how to convert your vehicle to peanut oil...

This might work.

Hugs BD


I knew someone who had a biodiesel vehicle.  He had to sell it because he gained 50 pounds in the 2 years he had it.  Something about your car smelling like french fries, while it seems like a good thing, probably isn't for the waistline.  Now if they could make fuel that made the exhaust smell like bacon..... ;;D
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Redd715 on May 23rd, 2006, 12:14pm

on 05/23/06 at 12:09:48, Tom K wrote:
 Now if they could make fuel that made the exhaust smell like bacon..... ;;D



A bottle of liquid smoke at fill up might do the trick ;;D
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 23rd, 2006, 12:17pm

on 05/23/06 at 12:14:54, Redd715 wrote:
A bottle of liquid smoke at fill up might do the trick ;;D



I have to fill up today.... ;)

Anything to get more bacon into the system is a good thing...remember, "I'm in shape, round is a shape."
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Racer1_NC on May 23rd, 2006, 12:23pm

on 05/23/06 at 06:46:36, tommyD wrote:
Trade in your SUV.


That move only saves YOU money on gas........unless you have it crushed, someone else will buy it and continue to use fuel to power it. Of course the money you'll spend to go from a SUV to a more fuel efficient vehicle will buy one heck of a lot of gasoline.


Quote:
(After all, why do you need a three-ton, eight-cylinder, four-wheel drive, high-ground clearance vehicle to drive down to the grocery store?)

Because I want to?

Bill
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Redd715 on May 23rd, 2006, 12:34pm

Quote:
(After all, why do you need a three-ton, eight-cylinder, four-wheel drive, high-ground clearance vehicle to drive down to the grocery store?)  



Quote:
Because I want to?


If you have a family you NEED to.  Just as an example,

Two teenagers, 2 backpacks from school, 1 trombone, duffle bag with track gear, 1 science project the size of a Barbie town house, and 2 art portfolios.  Add to this a boyfriend, 6 year old and the booster seat,  the Dog who needs to get taken to the groomers.  Fit all this into a compact 4 door Chevy?  We haven't hit the grocery store yet... :-/
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by DonnaHar on May 23rd, 2006, 3:03pm
Looks like we're stuck with groveling at the feet of the rich oil barons.

Americans have to have the easiest, the best and the most beautiful.  Nothing less will do.

See you at the pump.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 23rd, 2006, 3:10pm

on 05/23/06 at 12:23:04, Racer1_NC wrote:
Because I want to?



Because I can.  Some people look at it like this...and I have to admit, I'm one of them.  "I busted my ass and did without for a long, long time.  I'm going to pay myself back for those years of not having and induldge in something I want."  
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by BobG on May 23rd, 2006, 3:12pm
Have a neighbor that parks his car in his driveway?

At the auto parts store you can get a 3 foot length of hose for about a buck.

Ask for an Oklahoma Credit Card (aka Kentuckey gas pump).

::)
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by tommyD on May 23rd, 2006, 3:21pm


Quote:
If you have a family you NEED to.  Just as an example,


Check out the Toyota Scion B. Ugly as sin, cool as hell, 30+ mpg.
Independent praise at: http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001236.php


Quote:
That move only saves YOU money on gas........unless you have it crushed, someone else will buy it and continue to use fuel to power it.  


Good point. And people will buy them if the price drops enough. In fact, back in the ‘70’s gas crunch, I got a Chrysler New Yorker for a song. The money I saved on purchase actually made up for fuel costs. If only it had a toilet and shower, I wouldn’t have had to pay rent.


Quote:
Because I want to?


But here’s the hard truth - Drilling more holes is only a short-term solution since the amount of petroluem on the planet is apparently finite. If we (and that includes me) don’t want to change our hyper-motorized lifestyle even a little, then we can’t complain about paying the freight.  We’ve been lucky so far...

-tommyD
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Ronny on May 23rd, 2006, 3:32pm
Bad idea.

The only thing you can do to save fuel is to drive less.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by BobG on May 23rd, 2006, 4:13pm

on 05/23/06 at 12:23:04, Racer1_NC wrote:
Because I want to?
Bill


Bingo!


on 05/23/06 at 15:10:15, Tom K wrote:
Because I can.  


Bingo again!

Anybody that says "I want a top of the line Lexus and I can well afford it but to save the planet and a couple of bucks on gas I'll get a Corolla instead" is a damned liar.

My wife is going to get a new Sequoia. A monster of a vehicle.
Do we/she need it?
Nope. She a perfectly good, low milage, 22 miles/gallon, 3 year old, paid for Highlander.
There is just the 2 of us. The Highlander seats 5. The Sequoia seats 8. Why do we/she need 8 seats? Just because.
Why would she get a vehicle that cost $45,000+ when under $20,000 cars are available?
Because she wants it. Can afford it. End of discussion.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Racer1_NC on May 23rd, 2006, 4:25pm

on 05/23/06 at 15:21:00, tommyD wrote:
Check out the Toyota Scion B. Ugly as sin, cool as hell, 30+ mpg.
Independent praise at: http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/001236.php

I'll pass. God that thing is ugly.


Quote:
Good point. And people will buy them if the price drops enough. In fact, back in the ‘70’s gas crunch, I got a Chrysler New Yorker for a song. The money I saved on purchase actually made up for fuel costs. If only it had a toilet and shower, I wouldn’t have had to pay rent.

Many people made out like bandits doing just that very thing. A classmate in high school picked up a year old New Yorker for under 1k. Can you say party car?  ;;D


Quote:
But here’s the hard truth - Drilling more holes is only a short-term solution since the amount of petroluem on the planet is apparently finite. If we (and that includes me) don’t want to change our hyper-motorized lifestyle even a little, then we can’t complain about paying the freight.  We’ve been lucky so far...

-tommyD

Agreed. Many people laugh when they hear someone say get a tune up, keep your air filter clean, and keep your tires inflated to the proper psi. If everyone did this, the decrease in nation wide fuel consumption would be very noticable. It's one of the easiest and cheapest ways to make a difference. Combine trips......walk the half mile to the store.....these things help.

Bill
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 23rd, 2006, 4:39pm
Found this whilst looking for something else.  Makes for some good reading...http://www.infowars.com/articles/economy/peak_oil_index.htm

Who is to say that the oil on the planet is finite?  More oil could be being produced further underground than we know of.  With technology advancing, we could find more and more oil than we could ever possibly use.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by DonnaHar on May 23rd, 2006, 4:50pm
This whole thread saddens me.  I'm serious.

We are killing our planet......we know it and we won't take responsibility in correcting one little selfish desire.  I don't understand it now and never will.

A Discovery channel documentary, just a couple of weeks ago, gave a report with visual back-up about the melting glaciers....the black water theory......the climbing temperatures......the disappearance of costal towns (Florida included), the fuel emission in relation to the O-zone (what's left of it), etc., etc.

We will start to feel the effects of starvation, lack of drinking water, air polluted with ash which is layered in the atmosphere and will be falling back to earth, and many other catostrophic events within the next two decades.

Some of you will say I am overreacting and that it is a bunch of hype.......prove me wrong and I'll be one happy grandmother.

Why is it that millions of people can't-won't change the situation when our few politicians are hurtling us towards dooms day?  Every little change (like smaller vehicles) makes a difference and also gives us the drive to do something more.  

I'd gladly go back to the 6 cylindar station wagon I had when raising my three kids.  Got a new one every three years.....cash.  Could have afforded something flashier.  And now that I'm alone, I drive a 4 cylindar.......gets me where I want to go.

Maybe when you're my age and not feeling immortal anymore, you'll think differently about this.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Jonny on May 23rd, 2006, 5:03pm

on 05/23/06 at 16:50:13, DonnaHar wrote:
our few politicians are hurtling us towards dooms day?  


http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/dsp/specialReports_pc_carden_detail.htm?reportID=%7B08FAD3B1-9FAF-4037-BF26-573B2826B2C3%7D
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by BobG on May 23rd, 2006, 5:19pm

Quote:
The message is serious. So serious in fact, the DRUDGE REPORT has
calculated that Vice President Al Gore is burning more than 439,500 pounds
of fuel, or 65,600 gallons, at a cost of more than $131,000 on his 16,000
mile daytrip, just to deliver the warning.
Unprecedented Leadership.


I wonder, was a telephone conference call not invented in 1997?

Glodal warming? I have serious doubts. If you go to a library and look at newspapers from just 30 years ago you’ll find doomsday warnings about an ice age starting.

Global warming? I don't give e rat's ass. I'll just turn on the air conditioner in the wife's new Sequioa.

I be cool. :)
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 23rd, 2006, 5:48pm

on 05/23/06 at 17:19:56, BobG wrote:
I wonder, was a telephone conference call not invented in 1997?

Glodal warming? I have serious doubts. If you go to a library and look at newspapers from just 30 years ago you’ll find doomsday warnings about an ice age starting.

Global warming? I don't give e rat's ass. I'll just turn on the air conditioner in the wife's new Sequioa.

I be cool. :)



The planet was broken when I got here....
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Opus on May 23rd, 2006, 5:49pm

on 05/23/06 at 16:39:28, Tom K wrote:
Found this whilst looking for something else.  Makes for some good reading...http://www.infowars.com/articles/economy/peak_oil_index.htm

Who is to say that the oil on the planet is finite?  More oil could be being produced further underground than we know of.  With technology advancing, we could find more and more oil than we could ever possibly use.



I personally believe that crude oil is produced by sulfur eating bacteria, and is a renewable resource, well as long as the Earth still has sulfur. Still any renewable resource can run out if over used, just like fish and lumber. If that happens there may be a long time before the resource recovers.

Opus/Paul
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 23rd, 2006, 5:50pm

on 05/23/06 at 17:49:35, Opus wrote:
I personally believe that crude oil is produced by sulfur eating bacteria, and is a renewable resource, well as long as the Earth still has sulfur. Still any renewable resource can run out if over used, just like fish and lumber. If that happens there may be a long time before the resource recovers.

Opus/Paul


Not to get wayyy off track but we have more trees now then we did 100 years ago.  As for the fish thing, mostly it is a ploy to drive up the price of certain fish...got Chilean Sea Bass?  Couldn't give the stuff away 10 years ago, 4 years ago, almost gone, 6 months ago, it's back...go figure...
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by BobG on May 23rd, 2006, 6:06pm

on 05/23/06 at 17:50:34, Tom K wrote:
 As for the fish thing, mostly it is a ploy to drive up the price of certain fish...got Chilean Sea Bass?  Couldn't give the stuff away 10 years ago, ..go figure...


Yep, same with chicken wings.
From the time I was a little kid the wings were my favorite part. It was usually all we got. It was considered po'folks food. Most wings were made into dog food.Snooty people wouldn't touch them. Nowadays there's a chicken wing joint on every corner and the wings are the expensive parts.
Pisses me off.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Redd715 on May 23rd, 2006, 6:17pm
I just had a very very "must be over 18 to rent" thought go threw my head RE: the fish and the chicken stuff...

I'm sooooo bad.....
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Kevin_M on May 23rd, 2006, 8:11pm
No one will need to worry about having to adhere to any global warming policies.  The Montreal summit in December 2005:


Quote:
One of the goals of the Montreal summit is to start moving beyond the unsuccessful Kyoto Protocol and to begin negotiating another, more flexible, climate change and emissions reduction treaty.



However, the stance of the U.S at the summit was:


Quote:
US representatives in Montreal have stated quite clearly that they want no part of any such formal negotiations and may try to prevent them from happening at all. Instead, the administration is promoting voluntary emissions reduction and technology investments, nice ideas that only a handful of businesses have bothered to adopt.



The representative to be the lead climate negotiator for the U.S. at the Montreal summit was recommended by Exxon Mobil to the President, who appointed him to reflect our stance.

Both stories from the Washington Post are here. (http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/34/15998/printer)


The voluntary plan of this administration in the quote above that lead climate negotiator for the U.S., Harlan Watson, was talking about had already been known to be a failure in 2004, a year previous to the summit, which the Washington Post also reported here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A46212-2003Dec31?language=printer)


Quote:
Two years after President Bush declared he could combat global warming without mandatory controls, the administration has launched a broad array of initiatives and research, yet it has had little success in recruiting companies to voluntarily curb their greenhouse gas emissions, according to official documents, reports and interviews.
-----------/ /---------------
Industry groups, meanwhile, have crafted their own programs under a Bush administration initiative called "Climate VISION," but none of the programs requires individual companies to either enlist in the program or set goals for emission reductions.

Many of the companies with the worst pollution records have shunned the voluntary programs because even a voluntary commitment would necessitate costly cleanups or possibly could set the stage for future government regulation, according to industry insiders.




There won't be any global warming intitiatives to worry about during this administration.  
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Charlie on May 24th, 2006, 12:20am

Quote:
Not to get wayyy off track but we have more trees now then we did 100 years ago.  As for the fish thing, mostly it is a ploy to drive up the price of certain fish...got Chilean Sea Bass?  Couldn't give the stuff away 10 years ago, 4 years ago, almost gone, 6 months ago, it's back...go figure...


Hate to say it but he's right about the trees. The fish is a new one to me.

Nevertheless. The fact that so much propaganda about lack of proof for environmental effects comes from those that add to it and that the rest of the world is wrong, is enough for me. I mean give us break.

Charlie
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 8:55am

on 05/24/06 at 00:20:12, Charlie wrote:
Hate to say it but he's right about the trees. The fish is a new one to me.

Nevertheless. The fact that so much propaganda about lack of proof for environmental effects comes from those that add to it and that the rest of the world is wrong, is enough for me. I mean give us break.

Charlie



The fish thing was an industry wide "alert".  People were pulling Sea Bass off the menus left and right, because of the pricing increase and to save the Sea Bass.  It backfired on the fisheries, big time.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by floridian on May 24th, 2006, 11:28am

on 05/23/06 at 17:50:34, Tom K wrote:
Not to get wayyy off track but we have more trees now then we did 100 years ago.  As for the fish thing, mostly it is a ploy to drive up the price of certain fish...got Chilean Sea Bass?  Couldn't give the stuff away 10 years ago, 4 years ago, almost gone, 6 months ago, it's back...go figure...


Yeah, more acreage in trees, but they are little spindly things.  The really big timber is mostly gone. Cotton and peanut land in the south abandoned and grown up in pine. That doesn't mean our forests are healthier.

Fish not overutilized and depleted?  Your obviously talking to ideologues, not biologists. Yes, species that nobody knew about and nobody ate got popular and the price went up. But factory ships are pretty efficient at stripping them out of the water, usually with no respect for the idea of sustainable yield.  
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 11:50am

on 05/24/06 at 11:28:43, floridian wrote:
Yeah, more acreage in trees, but they are little spindly things.  The really big timber is mostly gone. Cotton and peanut land in the south abandoned and grown up in pine. That doesn't mean our forests are healthier.

Fish not overutilized and depleted?  Your obviously talking to ideologues, not biologists. Yes, species that nobody knew about and nobody ate got popular and the price went up. But factory ships are pretty efficient at stripping them out of the water, usually with no respect for the idea of sustainable yield.  



While I do very much respect your insight, having been to South Dakota, where they cannot cut down any trees or clean away any debris on the ground.  Even though there are 130 trees per acre, the ideal is 75, because of the enviromentalist.  2 years ago, the Black Hills had a fire that almost wiped out 28000 acres, if not more.  There are more than just  "little spindly things".  

As for the fish, being in the restaurant business, I know the skinny from my suppliers, so that pretty much nullifies your arguement there.  The Chilian Sea Bass myth was to drive up pricing on a fish that was under utilized before the "big scare".  Orange roughy, the new "big scare" is being farm raised and the product is just as good, as wild.  There is no problem with flavor or texture.  Tilapia has been farm raised for quite some time and no one notices the difference.  

Much like oil, do you really think that companies would deplete their supply and eventually drive themselves out of business because of the lack of supply?  Do you, really?  Like you always tell us, Flo, don't believe everything you read.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by seasonalboomer on May 24th, 2006, 12:02pm

on 05/24/06 at 11:50:29, Tom K wrote:
Much like oil, do you really think that companies would deplete their supply and eventually drive themselves out of business because of the lack of supply?  Do you, really?  Like you always tell us, Flo, don't believe everything you read.


Okay, let's say I run a commercial fishing operation.  There's free fish out there that I can take my boat out to and use huge nets to catch, destroying much of what is on the sea floor in the process. But, hey, God put them their for me to take.

Or, I could invest a gajillion dollars in farm raising Tilapia.

Yes, I do believe their are some commercial fisheries that would pull the last one out and then bitch about sustainable yields.

scott
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 12:13pm

on 05/24/06 at 12:02:55, seasonalboomer wrote:
Yes, I do believe their are some commercial fisheries that would pull the last one out and then bitch about sustainable yields.

scott


Got cut off your nose to spite your face?  Do you really think that the people making money off of these products, which they have invested their time and money, would go to the point of letting their supply run out, or would they do something to make sure they would be rich for the rest of time?  If you could make gold out of used oil, would you only use the oil in your garage and then say, "Op, I'm done."  HELL NO!  You would go to your friends and take their oil.  Same ideas apply.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by floridian on May 24th, 2006, 2:14pm

on 05/24/06 at 11:50:29, Tom K wrote:
As for the fish, being in the restaurant business, I know the skinny from my suppliers, so that pretty much nullifies your arguement there.  The Chilian Sea Bass myth was to drive up pricing on a fish that was under utilized before the "big scare".  Orange roughy, the new "big scare" is being farm raised and the product is just as good, as wild.  There is no problem with flavor or texture.  Tilapia has been farm raised for quite some time and no one notices the difference.  

Much like oil, do you really think that companies would deplete their supply and eventually drive themselves out of business because of the lack of supply?  Do you, really?  Like you always tell us, Flo, don't believe everything you read.


The fact that you talked to a fish-monger does not nullify anything. While I can't say much about Chilean Sea Bass (who knows, maybe there is a cartel to drive up prices?) I can tell you that 99%± of the scientific community believes that most major stocks of fish in the ocean are depleted to varying degrees, and unless pressure is taken off to allow for recovery, the numbers will continue to decline.  I worked in fisheries research when I was in Iceland, have friends and relatives that have been doing that for the past 30 years.  Saying "don't believe everything you read" won't erase the consensus opinion of the scientific community - even when it is written down.

Oil is not at all like fish.  Oil producers are in the business of extracting and selling a finite resource, and its pump dry and move on.  Essentially, the oil business is putting itself out of business, but it will take them some time.

Farmed fish as good as wild fish?  Depends. Most farmed fish is nutritionally inferior (higher level of contaminants, lower omega 3 levels, salmon spiked with artificial color to make it look like wild salmon).  People like tilapia?  Sure, its the chicken of fish - grows fast in confinement, tastes bland mild.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 2:25pm

on 05/24/06 at 14:14:48, floridian wrote:
The fact that you talked to a fish-monger does not nullify anything. While I can't say much about Chilean Sea Bass (who knows, maybe there is a cartel to drive up prices?) I can tell you that 99%± of the scientific community believes that most major stocks of fish in the ocean are depleted to varying degrees, and unless pressure is taken off to allow for recovery, the numbers will continue to decline.  I worked in fisheries research when I was in Iceland, have friends and relatives that have been doing that for the past 30 years.  Saying "don't believe everything you read" won't erase the consensus opinion of the scientific community - even when it is written down.

Oil is not at all like fish.  Oil producers are in the business of extracting and selling a finite resource, and its pump dry and move on.  Essentially, the oil business is putting itself out of business, but it will take them some time.

Farmed fish as good as wild fish?  Depends. Most farmed fish is nutritionally inferior (higher level of contaminants, lower omega 3 levels, salmon spiked with artificial color to make it look like wild salmon).  People like tilapia?  Sure, its the chicken of fish - grows fast in confinement, tastes bland mild.


And 99% of the weather men on TV today said it would rain...not even a cloud in the sky.  I didn't know you worked or were related to 99% of the fish research population.  Show me how harvest levels could continue to be the same across the board when there was a "shortage".  Said shortage only worked to jack up the price, nothing more, nothing less.  

Do some more research, oil is begining to be proven to be a non-finite product.  

So what is going to make you happy, Flo?  We catch wild fish, they are being depleted.  We raise fish, they don't taste as good and are contaminated.  Where do we draw the line?  Should we not eat fish?  If we all started to eat only vegetables, then the vegetable group would say that we are over using their resource of choice and that wouldn't be good, either.   :-/ :-/ [smiley=huh.gif]
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by seasonalboomer on May 24th, 2006, 2:36pm

on 05/24/06 at 12:13:28, Tom K wrote:
Got cut off your nose to spite your face?  Do you really think that the people making money off of these products, which they have invested their time and money, would go to the point of letting their supply run out, or would they do something to make sure they would be rich for the rest of time?  If you could make gold out of used oil, would you only use the oil in your garage and then say, "Op, I'm done."  HELL NO!  You would go to your friends and take their oil.  Same ideas apply.



You have some kind of amazing faith in the idea that people who make money off of something that they therefore possess some superior intelligence. When in fact there are countless examples in world history that the prospect of making money off of various resources drives many to incredible levels of stupidity. It is human nature to think that you can make a bunch of money and then get out with the dough before the bottom drops out.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by floridian on May 24th, 2006, 2:59pm

on 05/24/06 at 14:25:24, Tom K wrote:
Show me how harvest levels could continue to be the same across the board when there was a "shortage".  
[smiley=huh.gif]


Sure. Here's how, using money as a metaphor:

Say a person has a million dollars in the bank - they can live off the interest income and never deplete the capital - if the interest rate is 6% a year, the safe level would be $60,000.  

But they are motivated to take more than $60,000 a year - lots of fun out there to be had, and money is the key.  Lets say they spend around $80,000.  They are depleting their capital. They can continue to have the same 'harvest level' of $80K for many years, yet each year they wear away at the real value of their account.  Unless they adjust, their finances will eventually collapse. Happens all the time.  

Same thing for fish. Keep enough of the breeding stock, and you can live off the interest.  Take too much, the balance goes down.  Eventually, there is a price to be paid - but it may decades to see the damage, decades for it to recover if sound management is instituted.



Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 3:28pm

on 05/24/06 at 14:59:07, floridian wrote:
Sure. Here's how, using money as a metaphor:

Say a person has a million dollars in the bank - they can live off the interest income and never deplete the capital - if the interest rate is 6% a year, the safe level would be $60,000.  

But they are motivated to take more than $60,000 a year - lots of fun out there to be had, and money is the key.  Lets say they spend around $80,000.  They are depleting their capital. They can continue to have the same 'harvest level' of $80K for many years, yet each year they wear away at the real value of their account.  Unless they adjust, their finances will eventually collapse. Happens all the time.  

Same thing for fish. Keep enough of the breeding stock, and you can live off the interest.  Take too much, the balance goes down.  Eventually, there is a price to be paid - but it may decades to see the damage, decades for it to recover if sound management is instituted.


I would totally agree with you if the "shortage" suspended harvesting for longer than it did.  IIRC the harvest suspension was for about 2 1/2 years.  If the fish was in that big of trouble that harvesting had to be suspended, then how did it turn around that quickly?  I would think that if we suspended harvest and the fish was truely endangered, we would still be unable to harvest.  But hey, what do I know, I only cook the stuff...
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 3:31pm

on 05/24/06 at 14:36:36, seasonalboomer wrote:
You have some kind of amazing faith in the idea that people who make money off of something that they therefore possess some superior intelligence. When in fact there are countless examples in world history that the prospect of making money off of various resources drives many to incredible levels of stupidity. It is human nature to think that you can make a bunch of money and then get out with the dough before the bottom drops out.


If I'm possesing so much faith that they give a crap about where their next dollar is going to come from, than I would have to say that you are on the exact polar opposite from me in your amount of cynicism.  I don't see a company that makes lumber for homes, cutting down all the trees without planting new ones, so they could go out of business in X amount of years.  Damn, my common sense and logic are getting in the way again..... :-/
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by seasonalboomer on May 24th, 2006, 3:41pm

on 05/24/06 at 15:31:22, Tom K wrote:
If I'm possesing so much faith that they give a crap about where their next dollar is going to come from, than I would have to say that you are on the exact polar opposite from me in your amount of cynicism.



"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."— George Bernard Shaw


;;D

Scott
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by BobG on May 24th, 2006, 4:20pm

on 05/24/06 at 11:28:43, floridian wrote:
Yeah, more acreage in trees, but they are little spindly things.  The really big timber is mostly gone.  

Spindly and almost gone? Not by a long shot.

I don’t know about trees in Florida but out here in the west there are so many trees you can’t see the forest. Literally.
The lumber companies plant about 3 times more trees than they harvest in one location and move then to another location many miles away. With the forest thinned out the new trees grow faster and healthier than ever. And the wildlife returns to those areas. The new trees will be allowed to grow for at least 20 years and 30 years is preferable. It’s up to the BLM or National Park Service to decide when to harvest the trees.
The problem that is created is the trees are harvested ‘as needed’. Meaning the trees cannot be cut, sawn and stacked to dry. The are sent to market green. New buildings built with green lumber fall apart as the lumber dries and warps inside the walls. Then the buildings have to be torn down and the trash sent to a land fill and more trees need to be cut to build new buildings.
That’s the environmentalists rules.

Environmentalists are people that write 300 page books of reasons not to cut down trees.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by DonnaHar on May 24th, 2006, 4:25pm
Flo certainly seems to have done her homework.

I have read articles and seen documentories on just about everything that she has made statements about, and find that the facts are just that......facts.

When measurements or statistics or comparisons are made and found to differ, is it just our imagination?

Are the coral reefs not dying?  Are there not excessive amounts of mercury in our large fish?  Do farmed fish really contain more contaminates?  Yes.  Does it not take hundreds of years to produce a huge tree- the likes of which we have so few?  Is the O-zone not in serious trouble?  Are we not at high risk of skin cancer because of it?  Has our government upheld previous pollution controls on industry?  No, quite the reverse.  Is it because our world is recovering?  Heck no. It's all about money...period.  Forget about tomorrow and grab all you can today.

The only political data that we in Clusterville seem to agree on is that the drug manufacturers are gready, restricting hogs out to hurt the less-than-rich people.  Look beyond that......

Read scientific data with an open mind and allow yourself to weigh the facts.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 4:53pm
How do we know that any of this didn't happen before?  How do we know that the coral reefs didn't die in the past, to regrow somewhere else?  How do we know that the ozone didn't have a hole in it before we were able to measure it from space?  How do we know that the hole isn't smaller than it was before?  How do we know what happened before we were able to measure all of these things with today's technology?  What, do you want us to all live in caves, because we certainly can't live in a wood framed house.  Have no light or fire, because now barbecuing will give you cancer and oil or gas are about to be extinct, so no oil lamps or wood buring fireplaces.  Can't eat the animals, not only because they are cute but because they contain toxins.  Can't eat the vegetables because they use pesticides to kill all the bugs that can do harm to them.  Can't go out in the daylight because the sun will kill you and can't go out at night because the wolves and bears, which could be endangered, even though we don't have a specific count, may eat you.  Where does it end?  We can't ride around on horse back because that is cruel to the horse plus horse farts cause ozone holes, too.  Can't breath the air because it is polluted, as is the water.  More kids are allergic to peanuts and tree nuts today, so we can't eat those.  Where does it end?  Should we just wipe out the human race because everyone says we are evil and don't give a crap?  Oh wait, I forgot to mention the drug companies, everyone toss your meds out, because the drug companies just make money off of you.  Screw a monitary system, everyone will work for free.  Oh, yeah, that didn't work for Russia or Cuba...but since we CARE more, we should be able to do it.  BLECH!  If this is the world you want to live in, flush your computer down the toilet, move to Montana and start writing your manifesto, I'll stay here and life my life the way I want to.  Maybe extreme but where do the enviromentalist, animal rights people and all the other special interest groups draw the line?
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by DonnaHar on May 24th, 2006, 5:00pm
First of all, let me apologize to floridian.......didn't know he was a he until a heads-up from another clusterhead.

Second, this is a no win discussion.  It's not even a discussion.

Edited to add.....I've always made it known that my opinion is the we need to make enough noise to change the direction of events which do us harm.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 5:01pm

on 05/24/06 at 15:41:01, seasonalboomer wrote:
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."— George Bernard Shaw


;;D

Scott


If the world is populated by a bunch of people who don't care about it,  you are just promoting their agenda, by using gas, oil, electricity, buying a computer, cars, television, etc.  I guess you don't work much, since that would be promoting saving some of your job to do the next day, so they will continue to pay you.  You must have a hard time living in the 21st century, unless I am receiving these posts telepathiclly... :-/
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Racer1_NC on May 24th, 2006, 5:15pm

on 05/24/06 at 17:00:51, DonnaHar wrote:
Second, this is a no win discussion.  It's not even a discussion.


Then I guess we can discount those that say earth's climate changes are nothing more than naturally occuring cycles that have happened since the dawn of time.....

SUVs caused the ice ages of the past. Damn powerful vehicles these SUVs......influenced the climate thousands of years before they were manufactured.

I hope and pray someone doesn't expose that dog farts cause the ozone to break up....I kinda like dogs.

Bill
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Jonny on May 24th, 2006, 5:17pm

on 05/24/06 at 16:25:24, DonnaHar wrote:
Flo certainly seems to have done her homework.


PRICELESS!! ;;D

Sorry, Flo   ;)
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by floridian on May 24th, 2006, 5:50pm
Love your tendency to go hyperbolic ... but seriously:


on 05/24/06 at 16:53:45, Tom K wrote:
 More kids are allergic to peanuts and tree nuts today, so we can't eat those.


Actually, we Can eat peanuts and I am a peanut fan. But we should take reasonable measures to not cause our peanuts to send people with serious allergies into into life threatening shock.  So no bags on the airplane that open with a pop and send peanut dust throughout the cabin. No pbj sammiches in grade school cafeterias if a kid has serious allergies - those munchkins will end up leaving peanut butter traces on the tables, chairs, door knobs, etc - and it could kill someone.  

And something should be done about the nasally challenged person who thinks that wearing a half bottle of perfume makes them smell good - it can trigger clusters and migraines.  
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Racer1_NC on May 24th, 2006, 5:52pm

on 05/24/06 at 17:50:08, floridian wrote:
And something should be done about the nasally challenged person who thinks that wearing a half bottle of perfume makes them smell good - it can trigger clusters and migraines.  


Now this I can support 100%!

Bill
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by floridian on May 24th, 2006, 5:53pm

on 05/24/06 at 17:17:41, Jonny wrote:
PRICELESS!! ;;D

Sorry, Flo   ;)



http://www.musicexp.com/prince/symbol.jpg

The clusterhead formerly known as Floridian?  LAMS!
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 24th, 2006, 6:28pm

on 05/24/06 at 17:50:08, floridian wrote:
Love your tendency to go hyperbolic ... but seriously:


Actually, we Can eat peanuts and I am a peanut fan. But we should take reasonable measures to not cause our peanuts to send people with serious allergies into into life threatening shock.  So no bags on the airplane that open with a pop and send peanut dust throughout the cabin. No pbj sammiches in grade school cafeterias if a kid has serious allergies - those munchkins will end up leaving peanut butter traces on the tables, chairs, door knobs, etc - and it could kill someone.  

And something should be done about the nasally challenged person who thinks that wearing a half bottle of perfume makes them smell good - it can trigger clusters and migraines.  



Since you have taken part of my rant out of context I will add this as a caveat...I work as a chef manager in a private school.  I am fully aware of the peanut thing and don't need a lecture on it.   :-/  Since we are on the allergy kick, why not outlaw peanuts, tree nuts, shellfish, finned fish, chocolate, strawberries, single pitted fruit, wheat products because of the gulten people, polyester, lycra, all petroleum based products, 100% of the meds out there, air, water and practically everything else.  We can all live in hermetically sealed bubbles with purified air, water and a hypoallergic nutrient suppliment to live off of.  Sounds like a real good time, doesn't it.... ::)
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Kevin_M on May 24th, 2006, 6:41pm

on 05/24/06 at 16:53:45, Tom K wrote:
How do we know that the ozone didn't have a hole in it before we were able to measure it from space?  How do we know that the hole isn't smaller than it was before?  How do we know what happened before we were able to measure all of these things with today's technology?


This is all I can comment on because the fact that there has been life on land attests to the ozone layer being kept continually intact.  
 The ozone layer matured acting as a barrier against the Sun's ultraviolet rays making life possible on the surface of the water and eventually on the surface of the land.
 Models of Earth's early atmosphere imply that the ozone layer started to form, or at least oxygen gas had initially begun to rise into the upper atmosphere and at 50 kms (30 miles) molded large quantities of triatomic oxygen or ozone more than two billion years ago reaching its current level about half a billion years ago.  
 Fossil evidence supports that argument, as life rather suddenly became varied and widespread around six hundred million years ago.  Shortly thereafter a rapid surge in numbers and diversity of complex living organisms came forth in a population explosion.*  Eyes were able to form at that same time. **
 F. Sherwood Rowland and Mario J. Molina released their chlorofluorocarbon/ozone depletion research in 1974, for which they shared the 1995 Nobel Prize in chemistry.   The Montreal Protocol on ozone depletion was then adopted in 1987.   A man/ozone depletion relationship had been established.
 When researchers finally conducted actual ozone measurements in the atmosphere, their findings were worse than the scenarios of the models.  "Just because a situation is uncertain does not imply that the underlying reality is benign." ***



*523.1 C      **575.7 P         ***363.7009 S
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by DonnaHar on May 24th, 2006, 8:19pm
OK you guys.......I asked for it.  Flo, don't change your name.  This was one of those unsuspecting moments that rarely come along.  See what happens when we ASSUME?  It's my turn to be the ass.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by floridian on May 24th, 2006, 8:30pm

on 05/24/06 at 20:19:39, DonnaHar wrote:
OK you guys.......I asked for it.  Flo, don't change your name.  This was one of those unsuspecting moments that rarely come along.  See what happens when we ASSUME?  It's my turn to be the ass.


No problem, Donna - kinda funny, in fact.  So I carried it over to the testosterone thread.  
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Charlie on May 24th, 2006, 11:14pm
Not gonna be specific. Too lazy. Just some stuff.

Yes. Robber Barons will indeed deplete resources without worry to the future. Fish is a great example.

Oil is indeed finite. It's thought by most, and not just tree huggers, that the amount of oil in Alaska is hardly worth the effort.

Most of our oil comes from Canada.

Railroads kept going farther into the woods for fuel as the wood got depleted until coal got cheap. It was all money, nothing else.

Still, if you fly over New York State, all you see is trees. It's as green as anywhere in the country and even some old timber exists. I love the place.

Charlie
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by seasonalboomer on May 25th, 2006, 11:37am

on 05/24/06 at 17:01:25, Tom K wrote:
If the world is populated by a bunch of people who don't care about it,  you are just promoting their agenda, by using gas, oil, electricity, buying a computer, cars, television, etc.  I guess you don't work much, since that would be promoting saving some of your job to do the next day, so they will continue to pay you.  You must have a hard time living in the 21st century, unless I am receiving these posts telepathiclly... :-/


Okay, I'll go to my normal conclusion when conversations take this kind of twist.

The truth always lies in between the two opposing viewpoints. Not ALL of what either side in this debate says is totally and completley accurate. But, I think it is pretty hard to deny that man doesn't have an effect on the environment we live in that has the potential for consequences to ourselves and other living things on the planet. Just as I think it is pretty hard to accept a solution that we all need to stop driving, end the cutting of trees, and eat organic or die.

This argument, above mosty others, has the most options when it comes to two sides finding middle ground. The solutions all have the opportunity for profit to be made. Unlike arguments over moral issues such as abortion and homosexuality.

So I don't think talking about certain species as being "critical" and changing buying patterns while population stocks improve is a bad idea. Also I don't think that acknowledging there are things we can to improve the environment is pointless (think about Lake Erie in 1970's -- it was declared "dead" at one point).

So, meet you all in the middle.
Title: Re: Hmmmm I wonder....:-/?
Post by Tom K on May 25th, 2006, 11:55am
I agree that the middle needs to be found.  I don't agree that we should put limits on the amount of profit that can be earned by a corporation, see other thread about my views on that.  My last few posts have been taking the extremist point of view, because if you listen to all the special interest groups, they seem to be fighting for just that, the extreme.  I feel that the special interests suffer greatly from "Chicken Little" syndrom.  I could be wrong.  From your previous posts, you didn't seem to get where I was coming from.  Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the Interweb...I kinda get worked up when people don't use logic and just want to change things for the purpose of change.  When the Valdeze ran aground in Alaska, we did a big clean up, but we didn't get it all, I think we can all agree on that.  The special interest groups said that the area would be contaminated for 100 years or more, I don't remember the exact number.  Today, the area is almost back to normal, very little is left.  Nature took care of the part we didn't get.  Nature has a way of dealing with issues, look at evolution.  If an animal has a preditor that is fooled by a certain color, the animal evolves and takes on that color to survive.  Maybe the Spotted Owl was never supposed to survive, we just found it as it was getting ready to pass on.  We will never know all the inner workings of Nature, no matter how hard we try, that is the one thing we can agree on.


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