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        New Message Board Archives >> 2006 General Board Posts >> Pray and die. Soon.
        
(Message started by: Mr. Happy on Apr 7^th, 2006, 11:38pm)

Title: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by Mr. Happy on Apr 7^th, 2006, 11:38pm

http://dailyfry.blogspot.com/2006/04/harvard-says-prayers-dont-work.html

Eternal salvation guaranteed or Triple your Money Back. (http://www.mushys.com/Godman/godman.html)
RJ

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by floridian on Apr 8^th, 2006, 12:16am

I've always been sceptical of the studies that claimed that having people across town or across the county pray for you might have a predictable effect on healing. But prayer conducted by the individual themself could definitely affect health for many conditions - reducing stress hormones, affecting the neurotransmitters and immune system, etc..

Prayer, meditation, guided imagery, call it what you want, dress it up in any denominational costume, it stills the chattering monkey we call mind and Increases The Slack.

Triple my money back? I can't afford not to take you up on that offer. Where can I send the Benjamins?

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by Mr. Happy on Apr 8^th, 2006, 12:21am

on 04/08/06 at 00:16:09, floridian wrote:

Triple my money back? I can't afford not to take you up on that offer. Where can I send the Benjamins?

Read the add, maestro. There's a branch oirfice near you.

Wotan or bust.
RJ

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by vig on Apr 8^th, 2006, 12:24am

on 04/08/06 at 00:16:09, floridian wrote:

But prayer conducted by the individual themself could definitely affect health for many conditions - reducing stress hormones, affecting the neurotransmitters and immune system, etc..

Prayer, meditation, guided imagery, call it what you want, dress it up in any denominational costume, it stills the chattering monkey we call mind and Increases The Slack.

it's called the Placebo effect right?

it's still valid...
it's still a positive mental attitude...
it CAN help...
but it's NOT the magic they were looking for...

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by Pinkfloyd on Apr 8^th, 2006, 12:31am

on 04/07/06 at 23:38:43, Mr. Happy wrote:

Eternal salvation guaranteed or Triple your Money Back. (http://www.mushys.com/Godman/godman.html)
RJ

Thank you Reverend.

I think it's clear from the results that more doctors prayed they'd do a good job for the people in the group with the fewest complications. They didn't say it was a double blind study so they (the docs) most likely knew that group needed their best work. ;)

Also, without social security numbers, the prayers were probably misdirected and now there are a bunch of Phil W's with hearts going pitter-patter and think they're falling in love. Poor saps. :o

Bobw

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by floridian on Apr 8^th, 2006, 8:15am

on 04/08/06 at 00:24:16, vig wrote:

it's called the Placebo effect right?

it's still valid...
it's still a positive mental attitude...
it CAN help...
but it's NOT the magic they were looking for...

Yes (and No). They didn't find the magic. There are different types of things called placebo effects. One could be tied in with postive mental attitude and prayer. Another could be time and the body's natural ability to heal - give someone a sugar pill, and they get better simply because they were going to get better anyway. A third type is statistical - a study uses an innactive substance to 'zero out' sampling variation and statistical noise.

If someone has heart disease and they exercise, that is an active treatement. If they heart disease and they pray/meditate 3 times a day, that is also an active treatement - they are using a part of their brain and changing their body. Calling that the placebo effect is too dismissive for me.

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by Melissa on Apr 8^th, 2006, 8:33am

UGH!

:-X

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by burnt-toast on Apr 8^th, 2006, 8:53am

Those Havard guys missed the Pearly Gates Express again. Since when did the Catholic's and Protestant's have the exclusive in on the whole prayer deal?

God was obviously working the other religions while they were conducting their trial. Don't they know anything? ;;D

Knowing the Catholic's and Protestant's - Harvard most likely paid good money for those prayers! >:(

Tom

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by maffumatt on Apr 8^th, 2006, 10:21am

on 04/08/06 at 08:33:17, Melissa wrote:

UGH!

:-X

My thoughts too, what a thing to post on a health based forum, where desperate people at the end of their rope come to find help. Brings bad taste to a new level. Good find, glad you shared, hopefully you just dashed someones last hope when nothing else in this world has helped, they get to read this. Way to go, your winners in my Book.
Matt

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by cardogman on Apr 8^th, 2006, 11:40am

When one prays they should pray for others not themselves. This way they trick God and she feells sorry for you. Reverse psychology.

cardogman burtdog

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by nani on Apr 8^th, 2006, 11:49am

Prayer helps in ways that can be measured or observed. It's a spiritual thing.

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by tanner on Apr 8^th, 2006, 1:58pm

on 04/08/06 at 11:40:17, cardogman wrote:

When one prays they should pray for others not themselves. This way they trick God and she feells sorry for you. Reverse psychology.

cardogman burtdog

kindly don't send any prayers or vibes my way! i happen to believe that they do a lot of good regardless of which Diety you are appealing to.

.......................tim

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by sandie99 on Apr 8^th, 2006, 2:05pm

on 04/08/06 at 11:49:14, nani wrote:

Prayer helps in ways that can be measured or observed. It's a spiritual thing.

I agree. I believe in the power of prayers anyway.

Sanna

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by Charlie on Apr 8^th, 2006, 5:32pm

Prayers in this area always work better when the prayee knows about it............ http://www.smileygenerator.us/community/style_images/smiley-111/atb_search.gif?SSImageQuality=Full

A catharsis but not a bad thing if common sense is followed as well.

Charlie

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by floridian on Apr 8^th, 2006, 10:03pm

on 04/08/06 at 10:21:16, maffumatt wrote:

Yeah, the title of this thread is a bit sarcastic, especially if you don't read the article that is referenced ... but if you know the Amazing Randy, you wouldn't be surprised by his tone.

I think the topic is worth discussing, though. When earlier studies claimed to find that prayer by strangers led to improved healing, there was no shortage of people who cited this on various health discussion boards. Now there a larger study that finds that prayer by strangers does not speed healing, and if a person knew that strangers were praying for them, they had an increased risk of complications including heart arrythmias (probably from stress). So objectively, there is evidence that some types of prayer seem to be of zero health value, or may even be dangerous.

This does mean that personal prayer doesn't affect health - I believe it does. There are studies that show that people who regularly attend church live longer - maybe from regular prayer, maybe from fewer vices, maybe from having a social support network and emotional ties. Those are all good things. But saying that impersonal prayer lists are worthless does not rob a person of hope, only of false hope. And the science indicates that setting up certain conditions or expectations actually makes things worse - would you really subject a loved one to a religious 'treatment' that is more likely to make them worse than doing nothing??

And I agree with Nani - the primary purpose of prayer is for spiritual development. Maybe there are some healthy side effects, maybe not.

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by Melissa on Apr 9^th, 2006, 7:22am

Well, I think the study was a big joke. I mean come on, a controlled "prayer" study? Since when has prayer been scientific anyway? They're just trying to "prove" it wrong. Anyway, this paragraph peaked my interest...

Quote:

The praying was done by members of three Christian groups in monasteries and elsewhere -- two Catholic and one Protestant -- who were given written prayers and the first name and initial of the last name of the prayer subjects. The prayers started on the eve of or day of surgery and lasted for two weeks.

Just a name on a piece of paper and the whole thing was timed.

What I've found is that when I actually KNOW someome personally, and pray for them, that it CAN help. We've all seen it happen here. Some things though, even when you pray with everything you've got, are still up to the Spirit to decide, which is the end all be all.

We may not be able to change things at will, but we can help. ;)

There, I said my opinion. ;;D

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by BobG on Apr 9^th, 2006, 7:12pm

I'm going to pray that those Harvard jerkoffs get their heads out of their butts before they suffocate.

Just kidding......I'd never pray for that.
Let'em suffocate.

4 year old kid steps into a elevador with a Harvard professor.
Kid says "Can I smell your feet?"

Prof "No you can't."

Kid "Hmmm, must be your ass."

Title: Re: Pray and die. Soon.
Post by _Lee_ on Apr 10^th, 2006, 2:48am

A guy in my home town used to pray for people on TV, they would fall to their knees and be cured. He made millions of $ , There was never a study about the so called people, I think there either dead or in the same condition he "cured" them from. Pray away, can't hurt, just keep your hand on your wallet. :o