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        New Message Board Archives >> 2006 General Board Posts >> freedom of the press
        
(Message started by: karma on Feb 3rd, 2006, 9:19am)
Title: freedom of the press
Post by karma on Feb 3rd, 2006, 9:19am

Quote:
One of the images showed the Prophet Mohammad wearing a turban shaped like a bomb with a lit fuse.


I don't understand why Muslims are so upset. The truth sometimes hurts but that is the perception most infadels have of them. When are these a$$hole clerics going to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their followers.
Firings or repercussions for publishing these caricatures is wrong! Dead wrong!!
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by imnotbub on Feb 3rd, 2006, 10:07am
I by no means want to sound like I am a terrorist supporter, but this is a real touchy subject. The radicals are the only ones in the news, but no Muslim is happy about this, I assure you. To have any likeness of Mohammed in print, or anywhere else, is REAL TABOO in their eyes. It is a real no no. I think that wilth times the way they are, the world should educate themselves some and not throw fuel on the fire. I also think it's important to remember that, just like religion, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to how people choose to live. We as westerners may think their ways are backwards, but they think we are barreling straight towards eternal doom. A freedom is only a freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on someone elses.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by pattik on Feb 3rd, 2006, 10:45am

on 02/03/06 at 10:07:11, imnotbub wrote:
A freedom is only a freedom as long as it doesn't infringe on someone elses.


Bullpucky!!...by that defintion, freedom could not exist in our diverse and over-populated world.  Someone will always find a way to be offended about something.  Our freedoms as individuals will be in big trouble when we start telling the media what they can or cannot print.  If the hypersensitive religious extremists don't like it, they don't have to look at it or listen to it.  If I were aware of someone in my religious group murdering people who disagreed, I would certainly not stand by and let the world think we were all like that.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by imnotbub on Feb 3rd, 2006, 10:59am

on 02/03/06 at 10:45:39, pattik wrote:
If the hypersensitive religious extremists don't like it, they don't have to look at it or listen to it. ;)


While I agree with this statement, I have to again point out that it is not just the extremeists that are offended by this. It is a fundamental tennant of the religion. I was just suggesting that we should be sympathetic to those that have different ideals. As for the extremists that are using this as an excuse to murder, line them up, ready, aim, FIRE! [smiley=bigguns.gif]
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by karma on Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:00am
imnotbub,
This isn't about  anyones religion. Its about the right of expression. Religious tabbo's have absolutely nothing to do with a persons right to speak or write about or caricaturize or criticize religious or sacred beliefs. If Muslims are unhappy with the drawings fine, let them protest peacfully.  But don't allow threats to jeopardize western fundamental rights of expression.

Quote:
To have any likeness of Mohammed in print, or anywhere else, is REAL TABOO in their eyes. It is a real no no.

  Fair enough but that is an Islamic taboo, Nothing more and nothing less. Killing innocent men, women and children is a tabboo everywhere else in the world but that sure doesn't stop many Muslims from doing it.
  The fact that Muslim leaders cannot or will not reign in or at least distance themselves from atrocities carried out in the name of Islam does nothing but fuel the misconceptions about Islam.  You say no muslim is happy about whats going on? Gimme a break! You should have said no muslim is willing to speak out against it for fear of loosing there life.

Fuck em if they can't take a joke!
(added)
but I will respect the leaders and followers when they take a stand against atrocities carried out in the name of Islam.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by E-Double on Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:04am

on 02/03/06 at 10:45:39, pattik wrote:
I like Bob D's version: "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
;)


I don't dig any of it.....espcially the above quote.

It was written by Kris Kristofferson ;)
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by pattik on Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:08am
You're right, E, thanks for pointing out my idiocy..I'll remove it.  Afterall, that's really important to the subject matter of this thread. >:(
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Melissa on Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:18am
"And an orator said, Speak to us of Freedom.
And he answered:
At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrated yourself and worship your own freedom,
Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them.
Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.
And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfilment.

You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief,
But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound."

-excerpt from "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran

BTW, here is a snip from the recent news article:

Quote:
"Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37, a tailor who marched through the pouring rain along with hundreds of others in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

"Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted.

In mosques throughout Palestinian cities, clerics condemned the cartoons. An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind the drawings should have their heads cut off.

"If they want a war of religions, we are ready," Hassan Sharaf, an imam in Nablus, said in his sermon.

About 10,000 demonstrators, including gunmen from the Islamic militant group Hamas firing in the air, marched through Gaza City to the Palestinian legislature, where they climbed on the roof, waving green Hamas banners.

"We are ready to redeem you with our souls and our blood our beloved prophet," they chanted. "Down, Down Denmark."


http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060203/D8FHMTKG2.html

Humanity at it's worst...  [smiley=nono.gif]
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by chewy on Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:22am

Quote:
When are these a$$hole clerics going to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their followers.


When they cease being terrorists sympathizers. Dont wait under water.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:30am
Its really two distinct issues.  Freedom of the press, and respect for religion.  

When artists dunk crucifixes in urine, that's freedom of speech. It also pisses off many Christians.  The musical "Jesus Christ Superstar" also irritated a lot of Christians.

Ultimately, each newspaper makes a business decision - is the editorial content of the cartoons so great that they should be published, in spite of the fact that it will sorely irritate a large number of people?  Yes, if they want to live in Europe, those Muslims need to accept that some people will portray their religion negatively. Just like Christians need to accept crucifixes dipped in urine, driving out bad speech with good speech.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by imnotbub on Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:56am
This is humanity at it's worst. I, for one, think that we should be able to say and think what ever we want. Stating that, isn't it common sense to realize that by printing these cartoons, it's going to start a shit storm? Why tease a mad dog? I believe these people to be crazy, so I think we should leave them to fester in their own waste and not give them any more motivation. They have enough already. One good thing is that they have moved there sights onto someone else. The problem with this is if the extremists do something there, we will be there to help, just spreading ourselves even thinner. I see a vague parralel here to Rome. Not that we have the same view of things, but that a great civilization spread too thin will crumble. Can't be everywhere at once.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 3rd, 2006, 12:32pm
So how about that freedom of speech during the (Police) State of the Union?  Two women taken out by the men in blue , one for wearing a 'protest' t-shirt saying "support our troops" and the other wearing a shirt saying "2245 dead, how many more."  Women wearing t-shirts are very dangerous and should be locked up.  
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by pattik on Feb 3rd, 2006, 12:34pm

on 02/03/06 at 12:32:12, floridian wrote:
Women wearing t-shirts are very dangerous and should be locked up.  


[smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif]It's about time someone noticed how dangerous we can be.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Bob P on Feb 3rd, 2006, 2:07pm

Quote:
So how about that freedom of speech during the (Police) State of the Union?  Two women taken out by the men in blue , one for wearing a 'protest' t-shirt saying "support our troops" and the other wearing a shirt saying "2245 dead, how many more."  Women wearing t-shirts are very dangerous and should be locked up.


Exactly who was it that made the law against protesting in the Capitol?


Gotta love the Islamics = Don't portray our profet as violent or we'll kill you!
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by SteveY on Feb 3rd, 2006, 2:43pm
Touchy subject.

We have lots of them here, would you like some?

Shall I be really controversial?

Naw, best not Helen is here, she might slap my legs again  ;;D

Steve
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by LeLimey on Feb 3rd, 2006, 2:53pm
oh pack that in Steve, I know you love it you kinky bugger!  ::)
Pick a window though cos you're leaving!
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by karma on Feb 3rd, 2006, 2:56pm
Stevey,
This isn't about Muslims or Islam and there is no reason for this to be touchy.
Most people won't have any problem with Musilms as long as they don't try and blow themselves up in public places or drive airplanes into buildings or threaten entire countries because of a caricature or two.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by E-Double on Feb 3rd, 2006, 3:09pm

on 02/03/06 at 11:08:10, pattik wrote:
You're right, E, thanks for pointing out my idiocy..I'll remove it.  Afterall, that's really important to the subject matter of this thread. >:(


No one called anyone an idiot.
Gimme a break.
I have never gone on any tangent or dissed anyone ever.
Hugs to you.

This dude somes it up!

on 02/03/06 at 11:30:29, floridian wrote:
Its really two distinct issues.  Freedom of the press, and respect for religion.  


I just chose to make a bit of a joke.

Feel good & BTW "Bullpucky" is my new favorite saying
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by zwibbs/Scott on Feb 3rd, 2006, 4:36pm
Ultimately, each newspaper makes a business decision - is the editorial content of the cartoons so great that they should be published, in spite of the fact that it will sorely irritate a large number of people?  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I work for one of the major papers in New York City. At this present time we ALL are losing money, and business. About the only business decision they will make will be whether or not something will sell on that particular day...The cartoon in question shows the prophet Mohammad with a bomb in his turben. Quite honestly that cartoon speaks volumes in what these cowards are doing...killing innocent people in the name of Alla and Mohammad...so I ask what the hell is the problem. If the good people who are muslim are so bothered by this---then they should speak out against these bastards.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by sandie99 on Feb 3rd, 2006, 5:13pm
There's been lots of talk about that issue back here in the media. And even Finns have been warned to be careful when they travel in Muslim countries because share embassy builduings with Denmark in some places. It really makes one wonder about religion, doesn't it? I believe in God, but I'd be attacking somebody every time I read a joke about God, that would be pretty much I'd be doing... Naturally we're all different. Some are more sensitive about things.

Sanna
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by BobG on Feb 3rd, 2006, 6:13pm
It's time for me to log off. But, first, I just have to say this.

Fuck the Muslims.

All of them.

If anyone wants to reply................I'll be in Vegas. I'll call you.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Cerberus on Feb 3rd, 2006, 9:58pm

Quote:
the world should educate themselves some and not throw fuel on the fire.


How about vice-versa.

'Bus
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Charlie on Feb 4th, 2006, 1:19pm
I'm not too sure we sinners are worth being watched over after the way we use or misuse beliefs. The forgiveness part usually comes only after lots of people are dead or exiled.  

To put this in perspective, I'm sure that the stuff in our fictional portrayals of Arabs and Muslims would qualify as bad or worse in the minds of those protesting this stuff.  The difference is communication. Bob Hope and Bing Crosby had a smaller audience.

Charlie http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/reader.gif
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by john_d on Feb 4th, 2006, 1:34pm

They certainly seem to be using their freedom of speech liberally to stop the freedom of the press,  funny how when I went to Saudi we could not even bring a Bible in.    These pictures are from London by the way, not the middle east.   Fundamentalist Islam is intolerable,  what they really believe is we should all be muslims or dead.  


http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060203/capt.llp12602031854.britain_denmark_europe_llp126.jpg?x=223&y=345&sig=7S2y8XvtySc1JwP9bdxlKA--

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20060203/i/r1365134527.jpg?
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 4th, 2006, 4:29pm

on 02/04/06 at 13:34:56, john_d wrote:
Fundamentalist Islam is intolerable,  what they really believe is we should all be muslims or dead.  


Isn't all fundamentalism intolerant and intolerable?   Where were the complaints when hundreds of American newspapers were publishing Ann Coulter's column that said: We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.  Now your upset because they are threatening to kill us unless we convert us to their religion?  And where was the protest when the  politically conservative Jewish fundamentalists in Israel assasinated Yitzhak Rabin, the liberal prime minister?  The idiot public went out and replaced him with a political conservative who would favor the fundamentalist view.  

On a lighter note, maybe sometimes the fundamentalists are only ridiculous:
http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/society_culture/assets/creation_science_fair.jpg
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by john_d on Feb 4th, 2006, 5:00pm
Ann Coulter?  You quoted that nut Ann Coulter?  I'll refrain from Chavez quotes, but that is about the left-end level of that nazi bitch.   I would have chosen Pat Robertson myself.  ;)   You threw in the word intolerant, it's only spelled similarly, but it's outta left field for my context, no pun intended.  Fundamentalist Christians are not intolerable to non-christians, they are just an annoyance.   They are not out to kill anyone or threatenong to kill continents of people because they are offended, at least not recently.  [smiley=slowlaugh.gif]    hehe



 
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by BobG on Feb 4th, 2006, 6:13pm
Muslims believe that anyone that is not a muslim in the strictest way can be, should be and must be killed. Not converted, KILLED. That applies too muslims of different sects. They are taught to kill the members of another sect. This teaching starts in childhood and is preached until death. That includes the muslims in the USA. They may talk peace and love but behind closed doors they are nothing but a gang cult of murders.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Charlie on Feb 4th, 2006, 7:20pm
Ann Coulter is a child and fits the Pat Robertson mold too well. Her writings are infantile and sound like things kids say when playing in the driveway.

http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/snicker point.gif"Neenah, neenah. Traitor, treasoner, etc."

She's silly.

Charlie
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 4th, 2006, 7:56pm
Gotta love this sermon from the Landover Baptist Church, home of the True Believer!


Quote:
... but our lawyers are working very hard with the Federal Government to ensure that we can continue to practice our religion the way the Bible tells us to. Exodus 22:18 says, "Suffer not a witch to live." Deuteronomy 18:10 says, "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch." God is very clear here, folks, he doesn't want witches (or as they call themselves today, 'Wiccans') to live. We are supposed to be killing witches! If we don't, we are disobeying God. Jesus would weep tears of joy if He leaned down off His cloud and sniffed up the burning flesh of a witch this Halloween. Wouldn't that ruin Satan's little birthday party! Praise God! It's just a shame that the United States Government has placed restrictions on the Biblically-mandated practice of witch burning.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/witches.html


Thank God that fundamentalists only run our foreign policy, and haven't reinstated the inquisition.  Let see, Hindus, Muslims, Animists, Shintos, Buddhists - aren't they all working for Satan and therefore fall under the 'witch' category?

And about the Landover Church - yes, I know ;)
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by john_d on Feb 4th, 2006, 8:09pm

on 02/04/06 at 19:56:38, floridian wrote:
And about the Landover Church - yes, I know ;)


LOL, I just looked at their website-  it is almost surreal.  It's could easily be mistaken for a parody site.   ;)  

edit
duh, it is a parody site, pretty funny
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by stevegeebe on Feb 4th, 2006, 8:12pm
I won't kill you if you don't try to kill me.

Without this fundamental agreement, all bets are off.

These people are stupid.  No use going any further into complex issues like freedom. I'm glad I was not born a woman into a Muslim family.

Steve G
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by imnotbub on Feb 6th, 2006, 12:10pm
These people are stupid.


And that makes them scary. They are stupid and have no regard for life, and since the only alternative to appeasment would be to kill them all, that puts us between a rock and a hard place. To kill them all would place us on the same rung of the evolutionary ladder as they are now, and I don't think we can go there. We have to at least try to appease until there is no other choice. The time left to appease may be coming to an end soon with Iran playing with weapons grade plutonium. [smiley=twocents.gif]
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 6th, 2006, 4:33pm
I never thought that I'd be posting anything in defense of Muslims (not because I have anything against them, but because I never thought that I'd need to).  First off, Muslims do NOT wear turbans, Indians of the Sikh faith do.  Second off, the Qur'an does NOT promote killing infidels, it is those radical Muslims who chose to misinterpret the Qur'an who are doing this.  Third, unless someone tells you they are Muslim, you may never know they are and that includes the women.  Fourth, not all Muslims are radical, American hating, bomb toting fanatics.  Many are long-time members of various communities across the US and abhor what their fanatical brethren are doing in the name of Allah.  Fifthly, Muslims hear what the Prophet Muhammed said, but they still follow God (Allah is Arabic for God).

Verse 2:190 of the Qur'an says, "And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression, for verily, God does not love aggressors."

I'm sure that if anyone wants to take a religious text and use it for a nefarious purpose, they can.  Just look at the Crusades, the witch burnings in Salem, and several others (hmm, those were sanctioned by Christians, I believe?).
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by maffumatt on Feb 6th, 2006, 4:40pm
Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.

Q 2:190-3

When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.

Q 9:5

Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.

Q 9:73

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.

Q 4:34
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by zwibbs/Scott on Feb 6th, 2006, 4:54pm
In Brooklyn New York--they had a Picture of the Virgin Mary covered in cow dung. The show went on and the artist did not remove this piece of art ( sic?) Are we talking double standards here....When the insurgents demanded us to release the female prisoners or they were going to kill one of our female journalists...Our government did just that !!! Ridiculous ...It is high time the world joins together ( except France) and strikes these bastards right were they live.........Hey everything is fair in love and war !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by BarbaraD on Feb 6th, 2006, 5:01pm
Wellllll, like my mama always said, "You go to your church and I'll go to mine."  

I never run anyone down for their beliefs - even if I disagree with them. Mama always said, "some people just take the long route to get where we all want to go."

Personally I think too many "extreemists" are getting way too much publicity and if they'd just STFU we'd all be better off.

Hugs BD
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by E-Double on Feb 6th, 2006, 5:04pm

on 02/06/06 at 16:40:28, maffumatt wrote:
Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.

Q 2:190-3

When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.

Q 9:5

Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.

Q 9:73

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.

Q 4:34


You can find things in the New Testament that would suggest many of the samethings depending how you want to decipher it.

The same goes for a few of the 613 commandments...that G-d handed down to Moses...not 10.

It depends how you read things.

That is what makes one a fanatic!

It is all how it is interpreted.

Remember the crusades or the inquisition.

Move along.

TY ;)
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 6th, 2006, 5:21pm

on 02/06/06 at 16:54:35, zwibbs/Scott wrote:
In Brooklyn New York--they had a Picture of the Virgin Mary covered in cow dung. The show went on and the artist did not remove this piece of art ( sic?) Are we talking double standards here....When the insurgents demanded us to release the female prisoners or they were going to kill one of our female journalists...Our government did just that !!! Ridiculous ...It is high time the world joins together ( except France) and strikes these bastards right were they live.........Hey everything is fair in love and war !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Double Standards?  No.  Different Standards.  The west usually believes in freedom of speech, even if it is offensive.  Large parts of the world do not. In Singapore, a modern, prosperous society, people will are jailed for stirring up religious or ethnic dissent.  The rule there is practice whatever religion you like, but don't launch verbal attacks against others.

Some (not all) followers of Islam believe that blasphemy is cause for death.  Just like many Christians did until the reformation/enlightenment/modernization/Industrialization.  In Indonesia (the world's most  populous Islamic nation), there were peaceful protests against the cartoons. No suprise, Indonesia is not dominated by fundamentalists - Islam is widespread, but Islamofacism is not. In other places,  people are more hot headed and the protests turned into violent mobs.  

As a rule, mob violence is not JUST about what the media reports it is about. The Rodney King riots were not just about how Rodney King was treated on video tape - the anger had been simmering for quite some time.  The fact that the 'Arab street' hasn't exploded until now is curious, but not too suprising.  Kinda like heating a cup of water in a microwave to above the boiling point - you take it out and wonder why it isn't boiling, and then when a tea bag or cocoa powder is dropped in, it flashes up.  The trigger is different from the cause.

Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Bob P on Feb 6th, 2006, 5:24pm

Quote:
Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.


Just changed my name to Iqmar Amir Boobalah!
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 6th, 2006, 5:46pm
Ah, and here we see a double standard, do we not?

1 Corinthinians, Chapter 11:

Verse 3 says-But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Verse 9-Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Timothy, Chapter 2:

Verse 11-Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection

Verse 12-But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The Bible also preaches against other things that I won't even go into right now, but does that make all Christians evil?

From the Qur'an

190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Q 4:34-Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard

Q 9:73-73. O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

Gee, looking at the one above, I could easily change a few words around and make a similar verse of scripture from the Bible!

All I'm trying to say is that if we judge every person by what we think is their nationality/religion/skin color/whatever, we're no better than any fanatic walking this earth.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by maffumatt on Feb 6th, 2006, 7:17pm
depends if you are looking at it from a jewish or Christian point of view, for Christians, the word of Jesus overwrites the old testaments rules and laws. I challenge you to find a comparable quote in the new testament. I can't speak on Judaism. I didn't say one is better than the other, but neither did I put one quote out there "proving" that  Islam is  a peaceful religion. If I was a good muslim man I would just tell you to shut up woman, your dishonoring your father, but I am not, so please enjoy the rights you have as a free western woman.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 6th, 2006, 8:11pm
Well, Maffumat, Christianity is not too consistent on the notion of peace.  While Jesus at times says to turn the other cheek or love the enemy as you love yourself, he also said "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."  (Matthew 10:34-10:36).

The current versions of the Bible do not agree with the oldest discovered texts, and there are disagreements between the various authors of different letters and books that eventually were certified by the Emperor Constantine as worthy of including in "The Bible" ... for example, there are major conflicts between the different accounts of the passion - one saying that Jesus was tormented and in doubt, crying out in desparation to God; another saying that he was peaceful and confidently spoke that he would soon be in heaven with father. And the conflicts go on and on - according to one book, Joseph the husband of Mary is the son of Eli; according to another, he is the son of Jacob... the whole idea of innerancy or infallability of the text falls apart when scholarship is not met with arrest, expulsions, burnings, and stonings.  Which should eventually allow people to discard their fundamentalism, though fundamentalism is a persistent error of thinking that is never eliminated and always seems to make a comeback in every religion.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by E-Double on Feb 6th, 2006, 8:12pm
It's really not the point my brother.

I respect all religions.

It is not the religion.

It is the fanatic.

However, historically speaking, the massive slayings and torture of people who were not of the christian persuasion during the times of the crusades and inquisition were in the name of christ.

We wouldn't have the world we do now if it didn't occur but they certainly were etrocities.

Regardless, I was brought up to learn as much as I can about other faiths so that I may converse respectfully and to eliminate as much ignorance as possible.
I was taught to be educated pretty much because most would not be towards my own, this way I could be respectful and accept those for whatever they practice...... except, suicide bombing, cross burnings, etc. in the name of "G-d"
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by maffumatt on Feb 6th, 2006, 8:29pm
in my personal view, I believe there is one god, he has shown himself in many forms and ways the world over, I don't think there is  a  "bad" religion, I just believe that there are "bad" people who pervert religion for their own ends with hstory recording these deeds for all to see. I don't think you can take the word of the bible, or koran as fully factual on every event or word, they were written 1800 to 2000 years ago by a simple people in a simpler time, even today 2 people seeing the same event will tell two different stories. The question you should ask yourself is "what society would you rather your children grow up in, and what freedoms they would have in it ?"
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Jonny on Feb 6th, 2006, 8:34pm
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/Jyllands-Posten-Cartoons/?imgIndex=0&autoShow=3
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 6th, 2006, 8:41pm
Thanks for the link - that's the first time I saw them. Makes rational discussion a wee bit easier if people have actually seen the picture/film/sculpture in question. Easy to see how Muslims would see it as blasphemous, but the cartoons only represent one opinion...

Also makes me wonder how many fights in this country were the result of escalating insults that start out "Your Mamma -  "   It's not that the insulted person believes it, they just let themselves get really pissed over ego and honor.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Jonny on Feb 6th, 2006, 8:46pm
To me it makes me think that they are bigger idiots then I thought they were, cartoons equal death?.....what a joke!!
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 6th, 2006, 8:51pm
You must have missed my previous posts:


Quote:
As a rule, mob violence is not JUST about what the media reports it is about. The Rodney King riots were not just about how Rodney King was treated on video tape - the anger had been simmering for quite some time.... the trigger is not the cause
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by zwibbs/Scott on Feb 7th, 2006, 1:45am
You must have missed my previous posts:  

Quote:As a rule, mob violence is not JUST about what the media reports it is about. The Rodney King riots were not just about how Rodney King was treated on video tape - the anger had been simmering for quite some time.... the trigger is not the cause

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I did not miss your previous post...What you should do is take a look at MOST of the pictures of the protesters...They are women , grandmothers and grandfathers, and men of all ages......carrying signs stating 9/11 was just the beginning, blood will flow on the streets--------EXCUSE ME--but there is freedom of the press, freedom of religion, but these coward sh*ts are threatening you and me with the fact that TERRORISM is their choice of battle. No matter what your political stance is Liberal, or Conservative---We have to tell them enough is enough....I was in NYC yesterday morning and out of nowhere 20+ police cars came charging to Penn Station with helmets, dogs, and macine guns........all at 4:00 a.m. !!!! Is this the way we have to live, wondering when some as*hole strapped with bombs is going walk on a train ?!?!?!? I think all this cartoon bullsh*t is ridiculous....If the world gives in to their threats...........they win.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by imnotbub on Feb 7th, 2006, 10:23am

on 02/07/06 at 01:45:23, zwibbs/Scott wrote:
...If the world gives in to their threats...........they win.


Unfortunately, the fact that we spend so much time, energy, and money worrying and preparing defense against them means that they have changed our way of life. They, to a certain extent, have already won.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Ghost on Feb 7th, 2006, 11:10am
Hey why dont we all convert? [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif]

so far I havent heard anything bad about this one. :-X :-X :-X

http://www.venganza.org/

so far no extremest wanting to blow stuff up and noone wanting to kill them either. [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] ;;D ;)
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Charlie on Feb 7th, 2006, 12:31pm

Quote:
To me it makes me think that they are bigger idiots then I thought they were, cartoons equal death?.....what a joke!!


I have to say that in a general way, I agree with Jonny. This is the first time I've seen the things and they are crappy cartoons and from my picky pretty secular western viewpoint; a waste of so much energy. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/sissy fight.gif

I realize that this crap is in bad taste, I guess but these sects need to know that killing the messengers doesn't work.

Over here, we are supposed to have the right to be wrong without being put in stocks and stoned unless it turns you on...

Charlie http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/HOLY SHIT.png
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by floridian on Feb 7th, 2006, 12:33pm
http://www.venganza.org/ ??  Spaghetti-Mon is the one true truth!! Love it!!


Quote:
I did not miss your previous post...What you should do is take a look at MOST of the pictures of the protesters...They are women , grandmothers and grandfathers, and men of all ages......carrying signs stating 9/11 was just the beginning, blood will flow on the streets--------EXCUSE ME--but there is freedom of the press, freedom of religion, but these coward sh*ts are threatening you and me with the fact that TERRORISM is their choice of battle. No matter what your political stance is Liberal, or Conservative---We have to tell them enough is enough....I was in NYC yesterday morning and out of nowhere 20+ police cars ...


Scott - first, when I said 'you must have missed my previous post,'  that was directed at Jonny's comments, not yours.  And from my previous posts, I have made it clear that I agree with you - I favor freedom of speech, and am opposed to any attempts by fundamentalists of any religion to supress our freedoms or intimidate.  

To play devil's advocate: The idea of freedom of speech says you can call Bubba's girlfriend a sleazy douchebag. The ideas of Bubba say he should beat the crap outta you for that.  Don't let Bubba intimidate you - call her a sleazy douchebag!!
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Charlie on Feb 7th, 2006, 1:16pm
I don't think these things fall in the famous quote by Oliver Wendell Holmes....I think..... that freedom of speech doesn't include yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Not good, but not deliberately murderous.

Charlie
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Bob P on Feb 7th, 2006, 1:48pm
From an e-mail I got:


Quote:
They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged.  You don't really need a reason.  You just need an excuse.  Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by deltadarlin on Feb 7th, 2006, 4:06pm
And if I were to print *sambo* cartoons in our local paper, my house would be burned down tomorrow.  
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by BobG on Feb 7th, 2006, 4:08pm
The world would be a lot better place if we had som freedom from the press.
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by BarbaraD on Feb 7th, 2006, 5:09pm

on 02/07/06 at 16:08:42, BobG wrote:
The world would be a lot better place if we had som freedom from the press.



Amen to that.....
Title: Re: freedom of the press
Post by Charlie on Feb 8th, 2006, 12:55am
Nope.

Gotta disagree. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/writer.gif

Every despot and those controlling other horrible systems would love such a set up. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/reader.gif

Humorists and satirists are among the first to go.

Charlie


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