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        New Message Board Archives >> 2005 Cluster Headache Specific Posts >> KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
        
(Message started by: StressFree on Aug 27^th, 2005, 3:17pm)

Title: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by StressFree on Aug 27^th, 2005, 3:17pm

I would guess a large majority of cluster sufferers have been at KIP 10, many on a regular or even daily basis. I was surprised at the other thread, that many think suicide would be an unusual event for a cluster sufferer to follow through with. Fortunately, most of us don't have immediate access to somehow "end it quickly" when most likely to do such a thing. Or else we are able to think of family and friends that would be hurt by such a selfish act. Or we wonder about our eternal destiny, fear of death itself, etc. I've been there too many times to count. One thing I wanted to make clear regarding suicide, for anyone who may not know. Life insurance companies do not pay benefits if the dealth is suicide. Some even have fine print regarding whether death was caused by illness and what not. I hope this would be one more point that may keep someone from going that route! For eveyone who's been at that brink, or is there now, get hospitalized for the pain if needed - but hang in there no matter what! Not to be overly sappy, but you are loved! God bless all you sufferers and your loved ones. Rich

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by don on Aug 27^th, 2005, 7:07pm

Quote:

I was surprised at the other thread, that many think suicide would be an unusual event for a cluster sufferer to follow through with

It is an unusual event. Fortunately.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Sean_C on Aug 27^th, 2005, 8:07pm

on 08/27/05 at 19:07:20, don wrote:

It is an unusual event. Fortunately.

Amen ;;D

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by ClusterChuck on Aug 27^th, 2005, 11:16pm

on 08/27/05 at 15:17:45, StressFree wrote:

KIP 10, many on a regular or even daily basis.

That is due to the fact that (in my opinion) too many people are not using the KIP scale, properly. I don't believe ANYONE has KIP 10's every day, or several times a day. Fortunately, those that say they do, have never had a real KIP 10. I am NOT saying that these people are not in EXTREME pain. It is just that a true KIP 10 is truely unique. In 27 years of dealing with the beast, I have only had 4 or 5 KIP 10's (Thank God!). Once you have one, you KNOW it! I have had MANY KIP 9's or even many KIP 9.5's, but true KIP 10's are rare.

Chuck

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Racer1_NC on Aug 27^th, 2005, 11:18pm

It is unusual.....probably because a good supporter will hide the weapons during bad times.

Bill

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Sean_C on Aug 28^th, 2005, 2:19am

on 08/27/05 at 23:16:55, ClusterChuck wrote:

I love when you use those fractions ROTFLMMFAO. Take off that bonnet its to tight dammit [smiley=laugh.gif]

I love ya Chuck, you made my night bud ;;D

PFDAN to you,

Sean.............................. ;;D

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Jasmyn on Aug 28^th, 2005, 2:37am

Oh, you'r funny Chuck! You really made me chuckle [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Melissa on Aug 28^th, 2005, 5:45pm

I've had one Kip 10 in the 15 yrs I've had clusters. Just one. It was back in 2000 and I was in the bathtub filled with water with the shower going at the same time. I almost made myself go under water. I don't know what stopped me from doing it, but as I lowered my head to where the water was just starting to get into my nostrils, I began to cry. I cried because of the pain not only in my head, but in my heart of just how my daughter and husband would feel if they found me there lifeless. :(

Anyway, I have yet to have another K10. I've had K9's, just like Chuck (although I don't use the fractions, LOL), but haven't had another 10.... thank GOD.

mel

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Salvelinus on Aug 28^th, 2005, 6:54pm

I may be ahead of the curve, but I've had quite a few Kip 10's. Yes, you definitely know when you're having one. Pacing or banging my head is not an option, because I can barely make my legs and arms work at that level. The pain is far too intense to allow concentration on any kind of physical activity besides rolling, rocking, crawling, etc. It's even beyond crying or screaming, and it scares the hell out of my wife, who thinks I'm having a stroke at that point.

I consider those symptoms a blessing. It is impossible to follow through on suicidal thoughts at that level of pain. Even if I could get to a gun, I'd never be able to load it, or aim it properly because my hands tremor so badly. I cannot drink and can barely swallow (I used to slam or try to slam handfuls of Aleve during hits, but have given that up as completely ineffective and dangerous).

I think the danger of suicide lies in between a serious set of clusters in people without any coping or abortive strategies. My guess is that if it happens, it happens just as yet another cluster is ramping up . . . :'(

Namaste,
--Scott

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by kcopelin on Aug 28^th, 2005, 7:08pm

Up until this cycle I had only had two Kip 10's in 24 years. This cycle I had three Kip 10's almost back to back. It is rare, but it does happen, and not everyone is misusing the Kip scale or misrepresenting their pain.
I'm hoping this means this will be the last cycle. Hope springs eternal.
PFDAN
kathy

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by nani on Aug 28^th, 2005, 10:07pm

During my first episode (32 years ago), I would say that half of the hits were k10s. I didn't have a kip scale though. Since then, I've had quite a few k9s, but never another k10.
I agree that short of having a gun ready ahead of time, it would be hard to off yourself during a high kip. I've had most of my suicidal thoughts at the beginning of a hit, by the time it's over, I realized I was still alive and could get through another one. Thank goodness I've had children all this time... I could never do that to them.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by CHTom on Aug 28^th, 2005, 11:26pm

Speaking just for myself, as CH affects everyone differently, I think that I may interpret the Kip scale differently for myself. I am chronic and treatment resistant and after several years of being hit anywhere from 4-6 times a day with the pain being severe, the "life is not worth living" thought occurs frequently with me. Perhaps what I consider a 10 may actually be a 7 or 8 or 9 for someone else, but after years of having this horrible pain daily, almost all day long and not remembering when I last had a decent night's sleep, my ability to cope with the pain has been eroding. Somehow I have been able to force myself to go to work, though I have missed a lot of work time without pay, and somehow I am usually able to hold myself together during the day, but when I get home I lose it and collapse mentally and sometimes physically. I posted that on airline trips, if they are more than an hour or two, I have my doctor give me meds to make me sleep...some doubted that I have chronic CH because we, or most of us, get hit after a nap, but I would rather get hit after the plane lands than have to put up with the constant pain while trapped in the plane 6 miles up. The only reason that I have not offed myself, yet (tried with a shotgun once, changed my mind and blew a big hole in my living room door with 12 gauge solid shot) is that I do think of the effect that it would have on loved ones and also because I keep hoping that someday either I'll get a remission or find a medication or operation that will help. To me, what is most horrible about CH is not the pain but the deterioration in my quality of life-can't make plans because I never know when I'll get hit and have to cancel, can't enjoy wine anymore (stopped drinking years ago-a trigger for me) and the bullshit that most of us have to put up from those ignorant of the illness-"just a headache", "Oh, I know what you mean, I have migraines" and my favorite: "Are you sure that they are not stress related?". not to mention those who don't think you have anything wrong with you because, aside from the droopy eye, they don't see anything-I want to kill when I hear that stuff. The KIP scale is great, but I imagine that we all interpret it differently and think that we should accept each person's rating of where they think they are on the scale, for pain, physical and emotional, is a very individual thing. PFDANs and Peace.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Frank_W on Aug 29^th, 2005, 7:37am

I don't know that a cluster headache has ever made me feel suicidal, but I have been to the point of pain, where I feel like an animal in a trap, gnawing its own leg off... A Kip 10, for me, is when the pain is no longer localized to the eye, but begins to radiate down my jaw and the back of my neck, and I can feel it in my molars.

As for thoughts of suicide: It's not the pain that brings on the thoughts of suicide, because to me, suicide would not be an impulsive thing. I know the pain will go. As morbidly fascinating and vivid as the imagery is, of someone screaming in pain and then killing themselves, I think the reality is a little different. The thing that brings on suicidal thoughts, is the ninth week of a cycle, when I'm sooo exhausted, still getting slammed, and when I'm running on empty. I have no more energy to fight, no more willingness to resist, and I've been without sleep for days and days.... One day melts into the next, and each day feels like just another nightmare of pain. Those are the times when the only thing that keeps me here, is the fact that my wife and daughter depend on me. If I were on my own and by myself, I would be a statistic. I'm not trying to be dramatic; just stating the facts.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Jill on Aug 29^th, 2005, 8:35am

Quote:

That is what I was thinking... Even though the pain is severe for everyone, we all deal with it differently and the amount of pain we can handle is all different between us.

I have been chronic for a little over three years, resistant to medications as well and my 'dealing' with it is defintly not like that of others... I am not as good at it. Maybe in time but I dont know...

As far as the KIP scale goes - if I do it according to that - than I have had KIP 10's everyday... Those ones where I bang my head on anything and everything, beg to die, scream in pain and sometimes end up at the ER. The ones that are too painful for me to handle.. They may not come as often now or maybe I am dealing with them better but they still come.... and more than others have mentioned.

So what is the difference between us? We surely cant compare pain levels because you cant know my pain and I cant know yours since only us individuals experience it. But we can see our coping skills, to what level we 'give' into the pain and so forth.. I think that is what makes us vary.

Quote:

I don't believe ANYONE has KIP 10's every day, or several times a day.

Just to add one more thing, I dont think that this is fair to say or accurate by any means. I know what a KIP 10 is and I have had more than my share of them and they do come everyday. Maybe not so much now but they have...We can go saying that this doesnt happen or that doesnt happen becaus e it does.. Doctors are bad enough at doing this!

Just my thoughts - hope that they make sense.

Jill[

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by AussieBrian on Aug 29^th, 2005, 9:44am

Certainly this is a subject that must be discussed, it just bothers me a little that a new-comer's first point of conact with our board is 'Cluster Headache Specific'.

The reigning threads here are "Kip10 Sympton Suicidal" (27 Aug) along with "Suicide & CH/Migraine Patients" posted 18 Aug and now up to it's 6th page!

Never-ever to detract from the importance of the subject, rare as it appears to be, I can't help wondering if perhaps there might not be a better place to discuss it.

Purely for the sake of our incoming friends, you understand. Reckon they might be scared enough already.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by brainfreeze on Aug 29^th, 2005, 10:31am

on 08/28/05 at 23:26:46, CHTom wrote:

my ability to cope with the pain has been eroding. I lose it and collapse mentally and sometimes physically.

Your descriptions pulled at my heartstrings. I hope you find your fix even if it's for a day. I was exactly where you are although it was several years ago. I felt and looked like a drooling idiot due to the many hits, day and night. Worrying about work, meds, dealing with the inadequacy of doctors, people, and life in general.

Bless you, I hope you find relief. I'm sure you've tried every avenue. I stopped all meds and got sinus surgery brought me 2 yrs. PF and now I'm just episodic. Thank God!

Yes, I've too noticed KIP 10's are overated on some posts and to some they may be actually a KIP 10. In my experience I can relate to only a few hits that actually prompted a note tagged to me (inbetween times) saying 'if found, please call'. Sad but true.

Wishing everyone PFDAN's. Rest to all.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by seasonalboomer on Aug 29^th, 2005, 1:18pm

on 08/29/05 at 09:44:46, AussieBrian wrote:

This post is being put up with the knowledge that it may offend. That is not my intent, by any means. I’m not trying to stir up shit needlessly. My intent is to examine the question of if there does reach a point where we have to examine how we’re communicating with each other on some of these sensitive topics.

I think Brian makes an excellent point regarding new visitors to our forum, and possibly the first thing they read is about “when was the last time you thought about suicide?” It gives a serious subject the tone of “when was the first time you kissed a boy?” First of all the subject has been done to death (no disrespect intended), secondly it has been largely dismissed from most posters as irrelevant as only a couple people are actually aware of anyone who has actually done it as a result of Cluster Headache and relatively few have actually seriousl pondered it, probably no greater than a population with properly functioning hypothalamuses.

But, like moths to a flame the thread goes up and we’re drawn because some doctor at some point coined the term for our headache. And we think about it, and think about our greatest moments of despair. And then we creep into the zone where we ponder “if I was chronic, I’d….” (Which, for those of you who’ve shared that concern with our chronic brothers and sisters on the boards, think about that for a moment.)

While this is one of the few places where we can share our despair, our victories, our concerns, we should still show a little care. Particularly in those areas which are devoted to actual Cluster discourse. We should still think about everyone who might read and how it might be taken. We should think about what is good for this community, not just what is the first thing that shoots through our keyboard.

I can’t say that I’m perfect in this regard (at all). But, I can tell you that when it comes to the Cluster Specific and Medications threads I’ve tried to treat serious discussions with some respect. (and probably not always for anyone that wants to jump on me for anything I’ve posted in my time here.) This thread and others recently do have me thinking some though, and I guess that’s what I’m trying to say, is to try and step outside of the natural self-absorption that can take place with CH and be more thoughtful about some of these serious subjects.

Scott

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Jill on Aug 29^th, 2005, 1:40pm

Scott and Bran (and others)..

This subject, in my mind, is an important one if anything to remind us that no matter how desperate we are, we still fight. And that is important for new comers to understand.. if that makes sense.

I think that the idea behind the KIP scale, rating 10 to be exact, is that when we are in attack of that severity, we beg to die and beg for it to end. That is one thing - what others have mentioned is something different and that is actually acting out those thoughts when we are able to think straight. That is when the reminders that we have family, responsibilites and so forth kicks in and the thought of wanting to end it goes away. Does that make sense?

This is an important topic and maybe no so much for episodics as they know it will end but for chronics, atleast in my eyes. There are many days when I lay down at night and wonder if I want to wake up in the morning to face another day of these headaches and many times when I wonder if it is all worth it since there seems to be no end in sight. And during those bad hits, it is good that I have support and I cant function to do anything that is too harmful besides banging my head..Guess that is the good part of being in too much pain.. if there is a good part.

The important thing here is that I would never do anything because of that support... that is what is so key for newcomers to learn. We can do it and how important support is.

And besides, what other place is there to discuss this than with other sufferers under the clusterhead one... better to talk it out than to act on it.

Just my two cents worth. Hope that it made sense.

Jill

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Frank_W on Aug 29^th, 2005, 3:11pm

on 08/29/05 at 13:40:50, Jill wrote:

This is an important topic and maybe no so much for episodics as they know it will end but for chronics, atleast in my eyes.

You would be wrong, Jill. It may even be worse for episodics in some respects -- We're forever waiting for "the other shoe to drop." It's like living with an anvil hanging overhead, never knowing when the tiny piece of fishing line is going to snap. Just like chronics: When in cycle, we're always wondering when the next one is going to hit, where we're going to be, how bad it's going to be, and how long it's going to last. Then there's the wondering if the cycle has truly started or truly ended, and how long the cycle is going to be.

To reiterate: I don't think it's the pain itself, as much as it is, the fear and dread and lack of sleep and the medications and the idiocy of most of our care providers and insurance companies, the missed days of work, and the way we get psychologically and spiritually beaten down.

My two cents' worth...

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by thomas on Aug 29^th, 2005, 3:31pm

I don't know what I do when I have a 10, I can't think or concentrate, lots of beating and banging and screaming. I'm sure it's an ugly sight, but I can agree with Chuck, they have been rare for me as well. Thank God.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Jill on Aug 29^th, 2005, 3:46pm

Hey Frank...

I miswrote that, sorry... I am just not thinking straight right now..

I didnt mean to say that the pain or the fear and all that is worse for chronics than for episodics - I know what it is like to fear the next hit but I cant imagine what it is like to fear the next episode. We cant compare pain levels anymore than we can compare which is worse... I am sorry to make it sound that way.

That being said, what I was trying to say in some sort of way was that the suicide thoughts may have something to do with being chronic versus episodic... I am speaking from personal experience here - having them everyday without a break for months, years on end takes a toll on the mental capacity of people. I think getting a break, even though the fear of it coming back is there, gives you a chance to build up that strength for the next round which is what I need. Does that make sense?

I am sorry if I miswrote before or now - I am not trying to say that chronics have it worse than episodics because there is no comparison. It is, as you say, how we deal with it.

Again, hope that this makes sense.

Jill

Add - I just read this and I still think that it came out wrong - I know what I want to say but not sure how to write it.... sorry

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Frank_W on Aug 29^th, 2005, 4:04pm

No... Jill, I understand what you mean, now. And I've occasionally said that if I tripped over to being chronic, I might very well take a bath with my toaster oven. This shit just wears us down until we're running on empty...

Hang in there. [smiley=hug.gif]

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by kcopelin on Aug 29^th, 2005, 4:09pm

Quote:

Pain level 0
No pain, life is beautiful
Pain level 1
Very minor, shadow's come and go. Life is still beautiful

Pain level 2
More persitent shadow's

Pain level 3
Shadow's are getting constant but can deal with it

Pain level 4
Starting to get bad, want to be left alone

Pain level 5
Still not a "pacer" but need space

Pain level 6
Wake up grumbling, curse a bit, but can get back to sleep with out "dancing"

Pain level 7
Wake up, sleep not an option, take the beast for a walk and finally fall into bed exhausted

Pain level 8
Time to scream, yell, curse, head bang, rock, whatever work's

Pain level 9
The "Why me?" syndorme starts to set in

Pain level 10
Major pain, screaming, head banging, ER trip. Depressed. Suicidal.

I personally have had a lot of these and I am NOT mis-reading the scale either.

Linda Howell, (on Kathy's computer)

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Jill on Aug 29^th, 2005, 4:24pm

Thanks Frank -

I dont want to offend anyone or diminish anyone's pain... I am glad that you understand what I mean. That makes me feel better.. ;) And thanks!

And you are right, no matter what, it does where us down. And we all hate it.. and we are survivors. Sorry, needed to remind myself of that!

And Linda, I am glad that I am not the only one who has had alot of them.. was wondering what was going on there. Hope all is well and you had a good trip.

Jill

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by tenacious on Aug 29^th, 2005, 7:12pm

I think this is perhaps the only appropriate place to discuss this.

We are all newbies when we first arrive. We all read the Kip scale very early on. It is one of the diagnostic tools we come here looking for in the first place.

Suicidal thoughts and feelings at the K10 level are part of what differentiate my HAs from migraines. It is a part of the CH experience many of us share.

How it affects newbies depends largley on whether or not they've been there. It may be scary to those who haven't yet, but personally, I found it comforting. It is part of what we recognize about each other. It is part of what makes us a community.

That suicidal thoughts and feelings, as well as excuciating pain can be survived is part of what newbies need to hear. There is a big difference between thoughts, feelings and actions. That fact is what keeps most of us alive when the pain is at its worst. And since some of us, for whatever reasons, choose not to frequent the other boards, if it is not discussed here, we may never see it discussed. Our questions (unless we choose to post them [ironically, that would be here]) would go unanswered.

That said, I agree we should show some sensitivity and think before we post. This thread is getting pretty long and parts of it may not be all that helpful to firs-time visitors.

BTW I am grateful to say that my K10s (I personally count anything excruciating enough to give me a suicidal thought) are few and far between. They do not include my molars hurting, and experience allows me to just wish I were dead, rather than seriously contemplating suicide. It is hard, but I know the pain can be endured.

PS I like the term "suicide headache" for two reasons. First, CH makes us feel suicidal even though most of us never act on it. Second, I like to think it makes people sit up and take notice rather than say "It's just a headache."

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by vze2n4nj on Aug 29^th, 2005, 10:04pm

I think I had a kip 10. I was having an argument with my girlfriend when it reared its ugly head. It felt like someone had my head in a large vise and was crushing it harder and harder. I seriously contmeplated wacking myself in the head with a fry pan. I think I usually have kip8 or 9s. The good news...I can never be tortured by terrorists becuase there is NOTHING worse than a kip10!

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Goblin on Aug 30^th, 2005, 8:44am

on 08/29/05 at 15:31:49, thomas wrote:

I have to agree thomas I havnt had alot of 10's but I know when I do because it is so intense I have actually blacked out a couple of times and the other times I was in no state to search for a pistol. Hence keep it locked and key with wife. I told her to keep it in case someone ever tries to break in while I am at work. She doesnt truely understand what I am going through but I think she tries.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by StressFree on Aug 31^st, 2005, 2:54pm

try and step outside of the natural self-absorption that can take place with CH and be more thoughtful about some of these serious subjects[quote][/quote]

Not to keep this thread around, but I just checked in and have to disagree. (Or actually agree in many cases with the replies.) This is a serious subject. Many may really need to talk about it. As in the first note, I believe most have been there (KIP10) and many are there often - and yes, thank God, it is rare for anyone to take their own life. As several others point out, more or less, there is no more "cluster headache specific" topic than a KIP10. For those who are irritated or concerned with such a private, personnal, and scarry topic - thanks for your patience and understanding! By the way, anyone who would like an ear to listen, or shoulder to cry on, please post-mail me. Like I said, been there too many times. Rich

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by seasonalboomer on Aug 31^st, 2005, 3:07pm

on 08/31/05 at 14:54:54, StressFree wrote:

"try and step outside of the natural self-absorption that can take place with CH and be more thoughtful about some of these serious subjects"

Not to keep this thread around, but I just checked in and have to disagree. (Or actually agree in many cases with the replies.) This is a serious subject. Many may really need to talk about it. As in the first note, I believe most have been there (KIP10) and many are there often - and yes, thank God, it is rare for anyone to take their own life. As several others point out, more or less, there is no more "cluster headache specific" topic than a KIP10. For those who are irritated or concerned with such a private, personnal, and scarry topic - thanks for your patience and understanding! By the way, anyone who would like an ear to listen, or shoulder to cry on, please post-mail me. Like I said, been there too many times. Rich

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. My point was that this is a VERY serious subject which we sometimes bat about a little to gingerly. I'm not irritated or concerned with such a private, personal, scary topic. It's nice that you're so sensitive to everyone's needs and patient with everyone's input, but there are some ways that subjects are talked about on these threads that don't call for a hug. And, yes sometimes, people like yourself can appeal directly to someone with a really serious personal issue and get them talking using personal messages that would be more appropriate than keeping them broadcasting out to everybody and getting everyone's input, both appropriate and sometimes inappropriate to someone in an emergency or dire situation. So call me impersonal, but I think the subject shoulld be thought about MORE, before it is posted about more.
>:(

Scott

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by StressFree on Aug 31^st, 2005, 3:31pm

I think I see your point now Scott. Seriousness of the issue was part of why I wanted to post a separate thread, since the other had drifted and didn't seem to capture the importance of this issue. Many of us are maybe not so much "Newbie's" anymore, but haven't seen the previous discussions either. There is always the archive search. For me though, I don't get as much out of reading old messages as I do with discussing something with others currently. One other thing I'd like to mention. Some people can deal better with an issue by venting and letting out some anger, some with non stop joking, and some of us with "hugs". I guess I'm a bit "touchy-feeley". Ewe, that doesn't sound too good - affraid it's true though! PFDAN, Rich

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Jill on Aug 31^st, 2005, 3:33pm

Scott,

I think that we all agree that this is a very sensitive and serious subject - there is no doubt about that. I think that anytime pain is involved, especially at this level, than it is more than important..

But I am confused - what was the matter with this thread? I think that it was originally wrote to find out more about why 'suicidal' was under a KIP 10... especially very few have done so. The only part that I saw that was not right was saying that people cant go through KIP 10's on a daily basis and that is misleading.. Did I miss something?

Dont get me wrong, not trying to start anything here... just curious. And you are right, we do need to be careful when posting on this subject...

Okay - I am adding this but I just looked through the thread again and I think I understand what you are saying about people joking... is that what you meant? Sorry if I misunderstood you..

Thanks (and sorry if this sounds bad)
Jill

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by sandie99 on Sep 1^st, 2005, 12:08pm

Ch has made me real low on several occasions since the first hit. Yes, there has been a time when I considered to end it all... but it was more of a passing thought than a serious thing to consider. But that thought gave me strength to go on with the battle against ch. Have I had a kíp 10? I'd like to say that I haven't. But I've sure had several kip 9s... and they're bad enough.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by rickyshot on Sep 1^st, 2005, 8:53pm

I am with Frank on this one. Sometimes it is not the pain, but the ongoing thing of this. By the third week in my cycle I am always very depressed and contemplating suicide. And I am GLAD this aspect of CH is mentioned because it let me know that I was not alone and mentally disturbed but suffered a very real aspect of CH. Most of the time when I am in cycle of CH, it also triggers my complicated migraines as well and I feel very very sick which is sometimes worse than the actual pain of the headaches (anyone else like this?) Anyhow I am glad I have this board and some very real friends to share with and talk to when sick.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by kimmeesue on Sep 3^rd, 2005, 1:07am

Pain is totally subjective, whether it be physical or emotional. When dealing with Clusters it is both and IMHO it amplifies it on both levels.
The KIP scale is a tool, nothing more. It isn't scientific, it isn't "the final word" on cluster pain. Only a means of TRYING to communicate to some degree what we are experiencing. Personally, I think it is harder to differentiate between a 1-3 or 5-7 than to identify a 10. For me there are two levels of pain...I can deal with it and I can't. I am chronic and have shadows to varying degrees every day. I have Kip 10's about 3x a week each lasting three to four hours. I know when they are coming and I go into survival mode. Long gone are the days of pacing or head banging....I become preternaturally calm, withdraw into my "cave" and prepare to kill anything which threatens to invade my space. I am headed there now and gotta tell you ClusterChuck's first post of this thread really rubbed me the wrong way. For anyone to have the arrogance to question the validity of another's pain is offensive and I am surprised others haven't responded more vehemently to this.
The only absolute statement which can be made about Clusters is that they suck. Everything else is very personal and differs from one to another of us.
Let's all try to remember that and not make judgements about anything.
The one obvious exception to this rule is in regard to Jonny. He's allowed to be judgemental about everything because, well, who's gonna stop him???
Vison blurring, gotta go.
Kim

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Chillrmn1 on Sep 3^rd, 2005, 6:48am

Kim wrote: "Pain is totally subjective, whether it be physical or emotional. When dealing with Clusters it is both and IMHO it amplifies it on both levels."

I agree with this in as much that if the most intense pain an individual ever experienced would equal a K8, than that would be that persons reference point for a K10 until that person experienced a more intense level of pain which would keep climbing the scale. In other words, it is subjective based on the highest level of pain experienced because that level becomes one's reference for the worst pain. At least in my case, JMHO.

My 2 cents,
Bob

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by E-Double on Sep 3^rd, 2005, 7:07am

on 09/03/05 at 06:48:24, Chillrmn1 wrote:

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!

I've mentioned this many a time.

Eric (who's thinking of changing his name to Bob ;;D)

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Salvelinus on Sep 3^rd, 2005, 4:22pm

on 09/03/05 at 01:07:43, kimmeesue wrote:

I agree as well. In fact, I see it every day. I ask each patient I see what pain level they are having based on a similar scale, 0=no pain and 10=the worst possible pain they can imagine. I can't tell you how many times I have someone chuckle and say "Oh, it's definitely a 10." While they are smiling at me, I tell them that a "10" means pain severe enough to need an ER visit immediately. That always gets a response like "Oh, no. It's not THAT bad." I ask them again what level they are having, and more often than not, they will say "It's a 9." ::)

Those people have a very different perception of pain severity than I have. However, I never say they don't have pain, or severe pain. They feel that they do.

Namaste,
--Scott

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by BarbaraD on Sep 4^th, 2005, 6:09am

10s are not that unusal for a chronic (at least from this chronic's point of view) and suicide thinking isn't either. Most of us don't go thru with the suicide (as is attested by the fact that we're still here) but we DO think about it more than we care to admit. The pain, lack of sleep, depression, etc does that to us.

When I was episodic (back so long ago) I could actually "forget" about my afflicition during the times when I was out of cycle, but now (since 97) they're with me daily and even when I catch a break, I KNOW they're still there and am on edge "waiting". It's just become a way of life. You know it's gonna hit - you just don't know when and you're on edge waiting.

Anyhow that's my two cents.....

Hugs BD

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by hwm54112 on Sep 4^th, 2005, 9:08am

Suicide is inherently a symptom of a K10.

Newbie's won't be scared by the posts, they already are and just might find comfort in the fact that some of us have survived 30 years

Afterall, didn't your doctor use the term "suicde headache" , "worst pain known to man", or "people jump out windows" within 3 minutes of stating the diagnosis? The reality is that we start this adventure with the term suicide implanted in our heads, we just don't end it that way

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Chillrmn1 on Sep 5^th, 2005, 6:20am

The thought of suicide is a very sensitive subject but I believe the thought has passed though most of our minds when we truly experience a Kip 10 attack. Yes I believe the thought is inherent for most when enduring a Kip 10. In my case during a Kip 10, seems part of my sanity erodes due to the intense pain. You try and think of anything to stop or getaway from the pain. I've not made that trip to an ER for I reason by the time I get there, the attack will be over, however my longest attacks have lasted only about 1-1/2 hours. And yes, that thought of suicide has danced thru my head for a fleeting second, then sanity comes back and takes over. Suicide is NOT the answer or resolution. The attack will end.

For a newbie that has yet to experience a true Kip 10, I feel it important that they understand this thought may occur, but the attack will end, and suicide is not the answer. Just be prepared in mind, spirit, and soul to fight this thought.
Bob

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by BikerBob on Sep 5^th, 2005, 3:10pm

I knew two people who committed suicide by self-inflicted gunshot to the head.

Hunter S. Thompson, the gonzo journalist and author of "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas", "Hells Angels: The Strange and Terrible Saga of the Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs", and "Kingdom of Fear: Loathsome Secrets of a Star-Crossed Child in the Final Days of the American Century", in which he wrote "9/11 caused a nationwide nervous breakdown and let the Bush crowd loot the country and savage American democracy". Thompson spent a year living and riding with the Hells Angels in the mid-1960's. I knew him from many discussions with him at a San Francisco bar in the late 1970's.

On the day Hunter died, medic1852 posted this on CH.com:

Quote:

Little Something Something Feb 20th, 2005, 7:35pm
Started by medic1852 | Post by medic1852

Ok everyone I know in the last thread I was talking about how depressed I was. I have done everything I know how to do. I have played with my little pigs. I have practiced my guitar till my fingers hurt (cant pick my nose now). Looked at a ton of porn (why lie). Listened to all kinds of music. Then I decided to try my hand at writing. So I wrote down a little something something. It is dark and it is PURELY FICTION! So dont no-one freak it is just writing not a warning. But I figured I would post it hear for all the critics. Please be honest.

"Black Talon"

The cold blue glistens in the light, in dark contrast of the white towel it lays upon freshly cleaned and polished. Its walnut handle shows the wear and age of its use. Next to it lays a single brass casing topped in black Teflon. Knowing this is the one, it will work.
The magazine cold and empty waits for its spring to grow tight with pressure, as the single round is place into it. As it slides into place the action is smooth as silk, locking in place well seated, without fault.
The slide eases back pushing the hammer into place. The round chamber easily from the years of use the ramp has no burrs and is smooth. With a loud clap the slide slams forward locking the round in place.
The front sight post fits securely in place between my front teeth. The cold steel against my warm lips. I feel sweat building on my forehead. As I rock back and forth from the pain that is unrelenting behind my right eye which sags and waters from the pain.
The slack is pulled from the trigger as the tension builds. Releasing the hammer from its place. Slamming home against the firing pin, which in turn ignites the primer. The powder burns rapidly but in my mind I feel each grain ignite. Pushing the black Teflon slug through the barrel.
I feel the round travel down the length of the barrel twisting slowly in the lands and grooves. The slug exits the barrel tearing through the roof of my mouth as the Teflon gives way and the once round smoothness gives way to a small mushroom head with teeth like a saw.
It continues to spin pushing up through the base of my skull now. I feel the heat from the round it seems as if it is and eternity for the pain to subside. Pieces of skull fragment tear through my brain along with the little jagged piece of lead tearing and pushing. The pressure in side my skull cavity is too much, the top gives way allowing what is left of my brain to pass through and become splattered on the ceiling above.
The pain starts to ease but now everything is black as I feel my body slam into the hard floor. But there is no pain in my head as it hits the floor, more like a sponge being dropped into a sink. The warm dark blood pours from what was once my head.
But now it is over there is no more pain. The beast is gone; he will torment me no longer. Now it is done.
Rodger Brumley

This was my reply:

Quote:

Feb 23rd, 2005, 9:42pm
Started by medic1852 | Post by BikerBob

Reply to "Black Talon", from Hunter S. Thompson...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Hunter here, from the great beyond, well, from beyond. Place isn't any fucking better here than what you meat-bound suckers are laden with. Don't fucking pity how some desperate soul leaves the world, just congratulate the occasional player with the balls to choose his own door out and move on. I didn't make love to the gun and the bullet didn't fuck my head spurting brain ejaculate onto the wall. I weighed my options, made the decision, shot myself, end of story. I avoided sure death 13 times before, but I could no longer avoid something that eons of flawed genetic programming cumulated in: that pathetic splattered mess I left behind.

No matter how you live your life, it will end the same way, collapsing alone into a void. Nobody is going to make that trip with you, so you'd better prepare yourself for it now. I saw the tunnel, I saw the light and do you know what it is? The light? Just one big burial site for all unfulfilled hopes and dreams still burning with desire. They say to go toward the light, like hell, I ran from it. With every ounce of willpower left to my thin existence, I ran. I have no unfulfilled hopes or dreams to contribute... and that's the lesson man, that's what it's about. You've got your one chance, don't fuck it up before you come here and piously march into that light secretly burning with your petty wishes."

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Frank_W on Sep 6^th, 2005, 9:19am

Written during the 12th week of the cycle from Hell, the year before last.

Cluster Cycle

Swerve through malaise colored
days that wash over me like movies shot
through mustard-toned filters

Too many sleeping pills bring
fragmented montage of scotch scoured dreams
of drowning drowning and drowning

Autumn afternoon shadows stretching
long lavender fingers through my window
to jab my gritty eyes while television blares
broken babble blasting bombs and bloodshed

Future yawns before me in a chasm as
wide and dark as the perfect "O" of the
shotgun's barrel and I long for sleep as
smooth and cool as the trigger beneath my toe

-Frank H. Weeden

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Salvelinus on Sep 6^th, 2005, 7:25pm

Man, Frank. You're good. :'(

I'm very glad you are still here to share that . . . and sorry for the suffering you had to endure to write it.

Namaste,
--Scott

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by BlueMeanie on Sep 6^th, 2005, 11:14pm

In my opinion, a KIP10 is NOT the cause for someone commiting suicide. It is definately a factor and could possibly push someone over the edge if they where already unstable.

I'm episodic and I would say I have (or used to before Trex) had at least 8 or so KIP 10's every cycle, every year. Many of those times I didn't even know what a Clusterheadache was before I finally found out what I had.

You learn to deal know matter how hard it is. Most newbies that come here are thrilled to find out others are out there. This board should prevent anything like that, not assist someone just because it is being talked about. My 2cents.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Frank_W on Sep 7^th, 2005, 7:06am

Thanks, Sal.

BlueMeanie, I agree with you. There are so many factors that go into something like suicide. It's not just, "Oh god!! This headache is so bad!!!" *BLAM!!* Suicide is like a whole wall of stuff, with Kip-10's being only one of many many bricks that go into it.

If I became chronic, lost my job, wife asked me for a divorce, and found out that I had cancer, those would all be major things that would get me thinking about checking out. Then, after a particularly nasty stretch of intense cluster attacks, sleep deprived, and depressed, then that option would begin to look pretty attractive.

When it comes right down to it though, human beings are so tough... The idea of someone killing themselves because of cluster headaches alone, seems unrealistic to me.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Kim Y. on Sep 7^th, 2005, 7:13am

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Salvelinus on Sep 7^th, 2005, 8:13pm

on 09/06/05 at 23:14:44, BlueMeanie wrote:

This board should prevent anything like that, not assist someone just because it is being talked about. My 2cents.

Sorry, BlueMeanie, but I disagree.

If someone is considering suicide, talking about it is not going to throw them over the edge. Like Frank said, there are a lot of other things going on when the unthinkable happens. Most people considering it are looking for someone to talk them out of it, or hoping to find someone who understands. I think this thread gives many good reasons for living, and offers a lot of understanding. Every one of us posting here are proof that you can endure CH and still live a good, if not "normal" life. :)

Namaste,
--Scott

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Sean_C on Sep 7^th, 2005, 8:48pm

on 09/07/05 at 20:13:53, Salvelinus wrote:

This is the part that disturbs me. Having lost two close friends to suicide I can honestly say that talking on this board is not going to save somebody's life who ligitimately is going to commit suicide. It might prevent somebody from hurting themselves at that moment and give them time to rationalise, but its not going to stop the people that are deeply depressed and not in control of thier own emotions.

My honest advice is don't play with someones emotions if your not trained to do so. If you truely love someone get thier asses to a medical facility that can help them now. Because if you wait, you may be sorry later.

I know, I lived it, take it the way you want.

Sean...................................

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by BlueMeanie on Sep 7^th, 2005, 10:56pm

on 09/07/05 at 20:13:53, Salvelinus wrote:

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. If they are having a KIP10 and was thinking about suicide, (and not already over the edge), finding this board will help prevent it from happening. Because when they find out they are not the only ones out there getting these terrible headaches, it can make them feel much better. If that makes any sense.

Sean, I feel for ya. I went to Vegas last year leaving a worker who was very depressed (not from CH's). When I returned, he didn't show for work. I called his house to see where he was. I found out it was too late. Sometimes nothing can be done, but a professional is the best route.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Jill on Sep 8^th, 2005, 9:01am

Quote:

can honestly say that talking on this board is not going to save somebody's life who ligitimately is going to commit suicide

I dont agree wiith this... No matter what, when someone comes here thinking about suicide, the headaches are a huge factor in this.. why else would they be on this board? Coming here and realizing that people understand and support them can make them feel like they arent alone in this battle. I know, I have been there.. It is important to realize when someone comes here looking for help than they probably dont want to go through with it, they are looking for help. If someone really wants to go through it, than they arent going to tell anyone....

That being said, I think that there are two different ways that one can consider suicide as a way out.. one when we are in the midst of a KIP 10 and one when everything is going wrong and we can rationalize...

I know that for me, when in the middle of a KIP 10, I will do anything to stop the pain and I know that I beg for someone to end it for me.. If I could, and I have before, I would take more meds than I should and do whatever I can to make it stop. This doesnt mean that I want to die persay but it is that the pain is so intense that I am not thinking in a rational fashion. I bet that most of us beg to die during a KIP 10.. hence the reason why suicide is on the KIP scale.

The other way, is when we are rational and not in pain and considering suicide. This, as you have said, is when there is so many things going on and the headaches are just a mere part of the scale.. this is one a different level..

I have been on both of these levels and I know that there is different ways of thinking about this. No matter what, if someone on here comes and speaks about it, than we need to help them in anyway we can.. atleast letting them know that they arent alone and so forth..

Just my thoughts..

Jill

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Frank_W on Sep 8^th, 2005, 9:11am

on 09/08/05 at 09:01:55, Jill wrote:

No matter what, if someone on here comes and speaks about it, than we need to help them in anyway we can.. atleast letting them know that they arent alone and so forth..

I agree with you, Jill. You did mention that people who are going to go through with killing themselves don't tell others about it, and I'd like to just point out that this isn't always true. Sometimes, people reach out as a last ditch effort.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Frank_W on Sep 8^th, 2005, 10:09am

A debate? I would say that it's more of a discussion, and I haven't seen anyone's views being ridiculed. On a discussion board, are we not supposed to discuss things?
[smiley=huh.gif]

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Jill on Sep 8^th, 2005, 10:10am

Quote:

Wow this has turned into a debate...When all it was truely intended was to help those with desperation...

Fear of ridicule would turn me away

I agree with you Kim - this shouldnt have turned into a debate. Sometimes it seems that assumptions are made like saying the people dont get 'true' KIP 10's on a daily basis.. and they shouldnt.

I can understand why suicide would be considered as an option, I have been there before and I know that coming on this board can be a life saver.. I think that that is the important message to be said.... we understand, support and guide whoever needs it, no matter what.

Jill

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Kim Y. on Sep 8^th, 2005, 10:45am

Not everyone looks at suicide as hurting there family and friends some look at it as a way out of pain and helping family and friends from worrying, misunderstanding, and sorrow in not being able to help.

I will not deny the thought has crossed my mind many of times when the pain won't stop and repeats over and over.
We are here for you all at least those that do read this far past the debate. [smiley=hug.gif]

Kim
Its hard, its a challenge, be strong and talk to us, if you fear ridicule IM one of us.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Chillrmn1 on Sep 8^th, 2005, 6:27pm

I must have misread or misinterpreted something here..........I don't see a debate occurring but merely a topic of discussion. Not trying to be a wiseguy....clue me in, please.

Thanks,
Bob

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Salvelinus on Sep 8^th, 2005, 6:40pm

:-[

Sorry, BlueMeanie. I did misunderstand you. :)

Namaste,
--Scott

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Kim Y. on Sep 8^th, 2005, 8:09pm

I guess I just was looking at the debate on the misinterpretation of the kip scale but to each the kip scale is still individual. If they hurt bad enough and think this is the worst then they may contemplate. Same as the pain scale used in the hospital its individuals pain tolerance. :-/ [smiley=twocents.gif]

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by BMoneeTheMoneeMan on Sep 9^th, 2005, 1:40pm

I also think that Kip 10 is reserved only for the worst of the worst. The worst 3 or 5 CHs i have ever had are the only ones i call a kip 10.
PF wishes to all
BMonee

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by anarch on Sep 14^th, 2005, 10:46am

on 08/29/05 at 09:44:46, AussieBrian wrote:

Just to add perspective from somebody who just found this site, I have recently been actually considering suicide as a reasonable thing to do (don't worry, I'm not going to do it! It's just that the pain's been so bad for the last couple weeks that it's a good thing I don't own a gun...), and frankly I'm relieved to hear other peoples' stories. It makes me feel a little less crazy, if that makes sense.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by LeLimey on Sep 14^th, 2005, 11:08am

Hi Anarch,
Welcome, I'm glad you found us!
Tell us a bit more about yourself and lets see if we can help you in any way
Regards
Helen

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by AussieBrian on Sep 15^th, 2005, 6:17am

G'day Anarch, and welcome to Bedlam. The simple fact you're willing to discuss the problem means you are actually part of the solution.

Should be more of it and looking foward to hearing from you soon,

Brian Down Under.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Cooked Brain on Sep 16^th, 2005, 7:54pm

in cycle: at least one 10 a day :-/

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by JenniferD on Sep 17^th, 2005, 9:07am

Oh goodie for me... this is my 20 year anniversary of ch hell.
I have been very fortunate to not have any 10's in many years, but I do remember them well.
I don't think its so much the thought of killing oneself, more the mis-mangled thought that you can get "it" out of your head. A couple times I thought that if I chopped off the left side of my head and left it in another room, I'd be ok.
Or the time I thought that if I laid my head in the road and let a truck run over my head, I'd get up, walk away, and be ok. Perfectly logical at the time, but then, everything during a 10 is topsy-turvy and no other thing -absolutely NOTHING- matters except ending the pain. Never even occurred to me during those times that not only would the pain stop, but also my life.
Just my opinion and experience.

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by zanychef on Oct 15^th, 2005, 3:10am

heres my two cents worth
kip10's are rare
can come back to back
hurt like hell
make you wish you were dead
did try but couldnt get the window open
thought anyway if i do kill myself the beast has won so SCREW HIM i'm staying alive an beating the crap outta him!!!!!!
pfdan to ya
zany

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by BarbaraD on Oct 15^th, 2005, 8:32am

At the first OUCH convention in Las Vegas we discussed the suicidal thoughts that accompany CH. Most everyone there had a "plan" for suicide if the pain got to the point we couldn't handle it. Most of us don't act on it, but if we're honest we HAVE had the thoughts.

One neuro I saw asked me two questions: What do you do when a headache hits (scream, bang head, etc) and Have you ever thought of suicide (of course, haven't you? - he was a clusterhead also). He answered me, "Yes, but we're talking about you."

I went thru over a year where Kip 10s were more common than not. Then finally hit on the right meds and now keep them down to below a 10 most of the time. But I don't think Kip 10s are that uncommon when we're getting hit night and day.

My 2 cents....

Hugs BD

Title: Re: KIP10 symptom "suicidal"?
Post by Carl_D on Oct 15^th, 2005, 2:41pm

From 1987 to 1998 I was episodic and had some bad hits, but in '93 I had my first "10's" and it scared the hell out of me, I literally thought I would die from it.

When I went chronic, I started getting hit with 10's all the time. My first year chronic I didn;t understand what was happening, and why they weren't going away. Then I found this place, and was already at a very desperate point (I think my first post was called "Ready To Die" or something).
In 2002 I went through alot of different things, and by january of 2003 I was spending my time isolated from the world, just got out of a bad relationship, and basically just shut off from the world in a dire depression. One night I went into a 10 and said "Fuck this. I don't want to do this anymore" (mind you, no meds would work for me and I just rode the bastages out) grabbed a bottle of mountain dew, and began swallowing all of my meds, thinking "I will just go to sleep and cease to exist." I had no phone, my doors were locked, and I never got visitors at that period in time. To this day I don't know who found me or how I got to the hospital, I just remember waking up hardly able to swallow or breathe wondering, "WTF? HUH?"
After I got out of the hospital and began coming back to a somewhat normal (ha) state of mind, I delved into a new band, and started to actually let people back into my life. Then I came back here to CH.com and haven;t left since.
Now, though I can get some crazy thoughts during a hard unaborted hit, I rarely get suicidal. Instead, now I have other stuff going on like major insomnia that I fear will cut my life short like my folks who died too young. I don;t come from the best genes so to speak. Kind of ironic...don;t want to live but don't want to die.

This is just me of course. It was my 2nd and final attempt. I am convinced even if I shot myself in the head next time, I'd probably survive and be worse off than I am now. Not to mention, it would crush my niece who is 14 and has dubbed me her favorite uncle. Who knows what will happen. I could go episodic one day. That is something to hope for.

If someone is suicidal or you suspect they are, talking about it and dealing with it can be a good thing. However, when someone refuses to talk about it, that is when it may be time to worry and seek outside help.

And if anyone here is reading this and contemplating taking the plunge - GET HELP! Consider this a war with the CH beast and if you give in - he wins. Never surrender to the enemy. EVER! There are alternatives, suicide isn't one of them.

Peace and PF wishes,
Carl D