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(Message started by: forgetfulnot on Dec 17th, 2005, 3:16am)
Title: Nice
Post by forgetfulnot on Dec 17th, 2005, 3:16am
The New York Times reported Friday that Bush, months after the September 11 attacks, "secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials."
Title: Re: Nice
Post by burnt-toast on Dec 17th, 2005, 8:20am
And what is your point Comrade?  

Hey, the Patriot Act was signed shortly after this anyway, they were just getting a jump on the anticipated rush.  

All citizens must sacrifice their rights for the benefit of the State free Nation.  :-X

East seems to be rapidly moving West - shhhh they may be listening.

Tom I mean Ralph




   
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Charlie on Dec 17th, 2005, 3:21pm
What? Don't you trust those in DC? You know they're just looking out for us.

Charlie http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/12/11/opinion/Rich184.jpg?SSImageQuality=Full
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Jonny on Dec 17th, 2005, 4:20pm

on 12/17/05 at 15:21:31, Charlie wrote:
What? Don't you trust those in DC? You know they're just looking out for us.


As much as Clintons cigar ;;D
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Cerberus on Dec 18th, 2005, 2:31pm
 C'mon... Are you REALLY surprised by this? An article in the USA Today recently reported that Bush ALSO made a public apology for invading Iraq on faulty intelligence, but that removing Saddam from power was still a good thing.

I said that he should have done this before, when all the no evidence of WMDs stuff first came up.  But I am not President.

'Bus
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Mattchew on Dec 18th, 2005, 2:34pm
seems congress knew about it all along, even Harry Reid, guess it is only important if the New York Times reports it. The eavesdropping was done on international calls to the middle east and was resposible for breaking up terrorist cells here in the US and Germany. I am more concerned about who leaked the top secret program and why. Plus  the information that we were getting that we wont be getting now.
Title: Re: Nice
Post by forgetfulnot on Dec 18th, 2005, 5:29pm
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be. "
Thomas Jefferson

Lee
Title: Re: Nic
Post by Mattchew on Dec 18th, 2005, 6:45pm
if they were not listening to these guys and people died because they were terrorist wouldn't that be an "intelligence failure"?
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Jonny on Dec 18th, 2005, 7:09pm
Try using your own words, Lee.......instead of copy and pasting!
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Sean_C on Dec 18th, 2005, 7:44pm
This eves dropping thing doesn't bother me in the least.

The odds of a fed listening to me personally are a long shot ;) However it sounds like alot of GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS are sweating it out ;;D

Cheers

Sean..............................
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Charlie on Dec 18th, 2005, 11:55pm
It's not that they eavesdrop; it's that they like to pretend that it's incredibly patriotic (an overused and abused word if there ever was one) and tell us how it we are the guilty ones. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/read paper.gif

It's not new. Every despotic bunch uses stuff like 9-11 to justify bad behavior.

More to come on this I'm sure. Bush acted out of character here. Not sure about this one. Perhaps he's taking the hit on this for someone since he's already a lame duck and it's going to be a shitty election year. Who knows?

Charlie
Title: Re: Nice
Post by forgetfulnot on Dec 19th, 2005, 12:03am

on 12/18/05 at 19:09:35, Jonny wrote:
Try using your own words, Lee.......instead of copy and pasting!


Cut and paste? What's that. ;;D

Lee
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Mattchew on Dec 19th, 2005, 7:11am

on 12/18/05 at 23:55:54, Charlie wrote:
It's not that they eavesdrop; it's that they like to pretend that it's incredibly patriotic (an overused and abused word if there ever was one) and tell us how it we are the guilty ones. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/read paper.gif

It's not new. Every despotic bunch uses stuff like 9-11 to justify bad behavior.

More to come on this I'm sure. Bush acted out of character here. Not sure about this one. Perhaps he's taking the hit on this for someone since he's already a lame duck and it's going to be a shitty election year. Who knows?

Charlie

It was top secret, the only one pretending to be patriotic was the fool who leaked it. I agree its going to be a shitty election year, wonder how many more seats the Dems are going to lose in 06?
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Charlie on Dec 19th, 2005, 1:34pm
Penatagon papers were secret too.

There is something very odd about this thing. Something dangerous to some Bush crony in Washington perhaps. That speech looked premptive not just against the press and it's the speech that really opened a can of worms more than a news story. It sounds like someone's ass is being covered.  http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/scare white.gif

Anytime my government eavesdrops, it pisses me off. I know they do but this bunch carries it to extreme. It even celebrates its misbehavior and breaking of law in the name of a war on terrorism that looks more like the war on drugs all the time with its harrassing of us by law enforcement and courts....and useless.

Fox News would have blown it open against a Democrat even wider.

Charlie
Title: Re: Nice
Post by thomas on Dec 19th, 2005, 2:07pm

on 12/18/05 at 14:34:10, Mattchew wrote:
The eavesdropping was done on international calls to the middle east and was resposible for breaking up terrorist cells here in the US and Germany. I am more concerned about who leaked the top secret program and why. Plus  the information that we were getting that we wont be getting now.



Yeah, they forgot to mention those parts.  And people think I'm nuts for believing there is a radical left wing media conspiracy in this country. :-/
Title: Re: Nice
Post by seasonalboomer on Dec 19th, 2005, 2:12pm

on 12/19/05 at 14:07:06, thomas wrote:
Yeah, they forgot to mention those parts.  And people think I'm nuts for believing there is a radical left wing media conspiracy in this country. :-/


Little secret....that's not why we think you're nuts.
Title: Re: Nice
Post by thomas on Dec 19th, 2005, 2:14pm

on 12/19/05 at 14:12:16, seasonalboomer wrote:
Little secret....that's not why we think you're nuts.


Careful, you're leaking information, not suitable for public consumption.  ;)
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Charlie on Dec 19th, 2005, 2:18pm
It's like the New York Times is liberal. You bet. Someone has to be.

In American history, it's been the far right that has produced radicals.

It's Wilson, FDR, Truman, JFK, and Johnson that fought real wars. RR invaded Grenada.

Charlie
Title: Re: Nice
Post by thomas on Dec 19th, 2005, 2:29pm

on 12/19/05 at 14:18:00, Charlie wrote:
RR invaded Grenada.


Ended the Cold War.
Brought the Wall down in Berlin.
Got the hostages home from Iran.
Revitalized pride in being American.
Since these accomplishments the left has tried tirelessly to undo them all. (If not there, here Communism is alive and well in the U.S.)
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Mark C on Dec 19th, 2005, 2:35pm
:-X   :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X  :-X   :-X


Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Charlie on Dec 19th, 2005, 3:31pm
I haven't met anyone that sees communists behind every tree like you since the 1950s. http://www.millan.net/aim/persbuddy.gif?SSImageQuality=Full
Believe me, it's too unprofitable in every way today to be Red. You can relax a bit Thomas. http://subscribe.smileygenerator.us/all/albums/HoosierDude//spliff.gif?SSImageQuality=Full

Charlie http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/standart/pardon.gif?SSImageQuality=Full
Title: Re: Nice
Post by fubar on Dec 19th, 2005, 3:33pm
Charlie,

You have to be given credit for your strict adherence to the dogma of 'right is wrong'.

You know what would be really cool?  To hear ONE democrat admit that Bush did *anything* right.  It's like if he invented a cure for cancer, the left would accuse him of trying to impose poverty on all of the cancer doctors.  I mean they will find *anything* to tear him down, even if he actually (God forbid) does something right.

Look, I'm no Bush disciple, but he IS our president.  I am extremely impressed that he has changed his tune and now accepted responsibility for the war.  I am impressed with the congress for not passing the Patriot Act, even though I'm not convinced it was as evil as the left would have you believe.  The 'new' Patriot Act went a long way towards limiting a lot of the civil-liberty-infringing powers that were granted to the government the first time around.  But hey, it was a good message to send the country, i.e. that Bush doesn't own congress.

Bush, like it or not, is going to go down in history as one of the great ones.  History will look back on the time as a nexus point where the 'world' (read, USA) decided to make some very tough choices and make the world a safer place.  All this blather about us 'creating' terrorists and an 'unjust' war will all be forgotten when we look back and see the massive changes that are taking place in the Middle East.  Even Libya gave up all of their WMDs.  Khaddafi.  Think about it.  Iraq has a constitution now where WOMEN have rights!  Unreal.

The next thing we need to do is take out Iran.  They have a new president that openly challenges the notion that there was a holocost.  He has even initiated a multi-million dollar project to revamp a holy shrine (a well actually) that is supposed to be the emerging point of one of the 12 Iman that signals the end of the world.  In other words, this madman who WILL have nukes soon is convinced that Israel should be wiped off the map AND that the world will end even before our next election.  And he will have nukes.  Meanwhile, Europe sits there waiting for the USA to take care of it so they can call us tyrants, which is exactly what will happen.

Thank God Bush is not as stupid as everyone thinks he is.  Thank God he has the balls to take care of the problem, critics be damned.

off my soapbox now.

Fu
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Charlie on Dec 19th, 2005, 4:00pm
Lets see: George Bush:

Doesn't think much of the Bill of Rights, separation of church and state, sensible access to health care, the environment, scientific research and progressive teaching, thinks that censorship is a good idea, thinks lying to Congress and the country is just fine, thinks it's cool to un-fund most of the programs promised in 2000 while being a doormat for every big corporation by cutting back on safety, overtime, and just about anything they want, allowing them to cut or end pensions, send jobs to India so they don't have to pay real wages, likes the idea of setting up a Medicare prescription drug plan that is so convoluted that it's more trouble than it's worth and benefits drug companies and HMOs at levels hard to comprehend, that cutting funding for veterans hospitals and making it more difficult to use them is a good idea, doesn''t mind underpaying our military, thinks auto makers and ex-oil company execs fit right in the environmental and health departments, thinks that refusing to fully pay New York firefighters what was promised after 9-11 is just fine and that blowing the historic chance afterwards when we had the cooperation of everybody in the world is hunkydory, that tying foreign aid to abortion and domestic politics is great, trying everything possible to eliminate federal programs that have kept the country stable for 70 years makes sense, hires horrors like John Ashcroft to guard our civil rights, checks to see if religious zealots approve before acting, didn't learn anything this fall when federal auditors said they violated the law by buying favorable news coverage of its education polices and continuing the fake news business, paying to plant propaganda in the Iraqi press, and tarnishing American moral leadership with illegal detentions, torture, secret C.I.A. prisons in countries only recently liberated from the Soviet gulag....and onward.

Tip of the iceberg.

Charlie
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Ghost on Dec 19th, 2005, 4:08pm
see he like hearing those hot button points he listed them twice, to bad most of it is bs but hey we all have the right to say what we want. I believe differently but that is me. and it freedom OF religion not freemom FROM religion.
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Mattchew on Dec 19th, 2005, 4:21pm
Billl Clinton frustrated Republican critics. He passed welfare reform, waged a pre-emptive war against Slobodan Milosevic without either the approval of the Congress or the United Nations, and reined in federal spending. And so anguished conservatives had a hard time proving that, despite these accomplishments, he was a tax-and-spend bleeding heart.

Instead, they finally charged him with being a lothario who lied about his sexual antics. But he ended up with higher approval ratings than the Republicans who impeached him.

In the same sort of way, a detested-by-the-left George Bush has driven Democrats even crazier.

Take the economy. In Bush's first term, the president ballooned the federal deficit. But that red ink wasn't because of too little money coming in. In fact, the ensuing growth of the economy produced more annual adjusted revenue for the Treasury than had been produced before the Bush tax cuts. This year there has been a whopping 14.6 percent increase in federal income over last.

No, the real culprit was overly liberal federal spending in Bush's first term. Not counting the war and domestic security, the president still increased discretionary federal entitlements on average by almost 9 percent a year -- signing big-ticket items like the No Child Left Behind Act and a Medicare prescription drug bill. The president did not veto a single spending proposal.

So how does a big-government Democrat score points against a president who outpaced Bill Clinton 3 to 1 in increasing the rate of federal spending?

Democrats have tried the ``tax cuts for the wealthy'' approach. But, then, how is it that almost every American got some tax relief -- and that most in the upper brackets still pay over 50 percent of their salaries when federal, state, local and payroll taxes are considered altogether? Furthermore, unemployment and interest rates remain low, while consumer spending and the gross domestic product soar.

The Democrats face the same sort of dilemma in regard to Iraq, even though the war is currently unpopular. They are not traditional Charles Lindbergh isolationists who want to stay home. To their credit, most aren't grim realists who believe we should worry only how thugs abroad treat us, rather than how they treat their own.

So, privately, Democrats concede that, while going to war may have been naive or widely idealistic, it was not done simply out of self-interest.

And since gas prices skyrocketed after Iraq, Democrats can hardly use ``No Blood For Oil'' sloganeering. Since Israel got out of Gaza, so much for any claims of a surrogate war for Israel. And since U.S. troops left Saudi Arabia, so much for the argument the administration is after perpetual hegemony in the oil-rich Persian Gulf.

We can best understand the Democratic dilemma on both domestic and foreign issues by looking at growing criticism from the president's conservative base. For those on the hard right, he is getting uncomfortably liberal and idealistic -- in other words, acting too much like a Democrat.

At home, many supply-siders and libertarians charge he is a big spender who is deluded for thinking the federal government can solve social problems by throwing more money at them.

Abroad, paleo-conservatives like Pat Buchanan think Bush is a neoconservative imperialist, and realists like George Bush Sr.'s national security adviser, Brent Scowcroft, allege he is a dreamy idealist.

But as George W. Bush oddly seems to be doing many things a Democrat might have done, his base supporters stay with him. They see progress in Iraq (a war most Democrats in Congress once voted for). They know that the economy is strong and that the deficit is starting to decline. And they have nowhere to go anyway.

So, what are the flummoxed Democrats faced with? They're demanding peace, but have no real future peace candidate. Democrats praise Pennsylvania Congressman John Murtha's courage, but don't vote to follow his lead. They talk withdrawal, but neither offer a timetable nor cut off war funding.

If Karl Rove has copied former Clinton adviser Dick Morris' playbook, then the frustrated Democrats of the House and Senate in turn have modeled themselves after the crabby contrarian Republican Congress of 1998 -- and we all know who ultimately won that showdown.

Meanwhile the economy keeps chugging along, the Iraqis keep voting, and the exasperated Democrats keep digging.

One thing more, the most famous propagandist of all time Tokoyo Rose had 4 themes that were consistant in her broadcasts to demoralise our troops,
1. Your president is lying  to you
2. You can not win
3. You are in the war for corperate profits
4. You are criminals
Guess the Dems do learn from history, but to compare our prisons to gulags is irresposible and a misjustice to the millions that died there, but hey if you can get a brownie point go ahead. Someone please tell me the name of 1 person who has lost a civil liberty in the last 6 years.
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Charlie on Dec 19th, 2005, 4:50pm
Yeah. http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/standart/heat.gif?SSImageQuality=Fullhttp://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/light_skin/cray.gif?SSImageQuality=Full http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/remake/haha.gif?SSImageQuality=Fullhttp://subscribe.smileygenerator.us/all/albums/aiwan1//butcher.gif?SSImageQuality=Fullhttp://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/standart/stop.gif?SSImageQuality=Fullhttp://www.subscribe.smileygenerator.us/all/albums/0riginals/box.gif?SSImageQuality=Full

This stuff is fun for a time but never the twain shall meet on almost all these issues.... a few but only a few.

It's like the Darwin-anti evolution thing running on the editorial pages in my town. It's a brick wall.  

Hard to relate clusters and politics. Have to wonder what DJ thought when we started this stuff.

Time to pick on Happy or Chuck. http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/personal/russian.gif?SSImageQuality=Full  (beats me)

Charlie
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Mattchew on Dec 19th, 2005, 4:52pm
one underlieing theme here, we all have one thing that brings us together that transends politics and religion, race and ideology.
Title: Re: Nice
Post by fubar on Dec 19th, 2005, 5:04pm
Funny thing... discussions like this are actually good tharapy when your head hurts.  Even if they sound hostile...
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Ghost on Dec 19th, 2005, 5:14pm
On that I whole heartidly agree kinda like going home for the holidays, nothing like a good btch session to draw us all together. ;;D :-* ;)
Title: Re: Nice
Post by stevegeebe on Dec 19th, 2005, 8:03pm
What makes this seem so insincere and disingenuous is that it breaks, for lack of a better word, along party lines.

What a sad situation. They have made it impossible to have any choice besides these two counterproductive extreemes.

We watch it happen, complain about it, and don't seem to care about the crap what eminates from Washington as long as we locally get our piece of the pie.

They know what they are doing and we just sit back and take what they are giving...sheep that we are.  Meanwhile they spend tons of money for a six figure job...retire after many years in "public service"...and then become lobbyist and enjoy the continued power trip with government pensions and then rake in the big bucks.

Meanwhile we bitch and bicker about the both of them and get nothing accomplished.

This country is headed for the crapper of history and we are just taking sides and blaming the other side on our way to its end.

Pick a side...it don't matter.

Steve G
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Jonny on Dec 19th, 2005, 8:05pm

on 12/19/05 at 20:03:00, stevegeebe wrote:
What a sad situation. They have made it impossible to have any choice besides these two counterproductive extreemes.


Well said, Steve!!!
Title: Re: Nice
Post by stevegeebe on Dec 19th, 2005, 8:15pm
Hey Jonny..was not the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party yesterday?

Steve G
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Jonny on Dec 19th, 2005, 8:23pm

on 12/19/05 at 20:15:45, stevegeebe wrote:
Hey Jonny..was not the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party yesterday?

Steve G


December 16, 1773....Time for another one maybe ;;D
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Mattchew on Dec 19th, 2005, 8:59pm
I would love another alternitive but what we have is what we have.
Title: Re: Nice
Post by burnt-toast on Dec 19th, 2005, 9:12pm

on 12/19/05 at 20:03:00, stevegeebe wrote:
What makes this seem so insincere and disingenuous is that it breaks, for lack of a better word, along party lines.

What a sad situation. They have made it impossible to have any choice besides these two counterproductive extreemes.

We watch it happen, complain about it, and don't seem to care about the crap what eminates from Washington as long as we locally get our piece of the pie.

They know what they are doing and we just sit back and take what they are giving...sheep that we are.  Meanwhile they spend tons of money for a six figure job...retire after many years in "public service"...and then become lobbyist and enjoy the continued power trip with government pensions and then rake in the big bucks.

Meanwhile we bitch and bicker about the both of them and get nothing accomplished.

This country is headed for the crapper of history and we are just taking sides and blaming the other side on our way to its end.

Pick a side...it don't matter.

Steve G


Very well put.  

Divide, conquor, pawns foot the bill and waste time fighting themselves while both corrupt political parties in a corrupt system can get richer/more powerful/more corrupt.  Obviously this works.  

I've long ago tired of hearing why I should support the "lesser of two evils".  I require more from my representatives (regardless of whether I vote for them or not) and I let them know it on a regular basis.  If you don't - please stop pointing fingers and start letting your representatives know what you expect.  At least make an effort to show them you are alive and paying attention.  
 
Maybe The Founding Fathers were wrong to entrust their vision of "Government By The People/For The People" - To "The People".  We've proven that we are unable to handle the responsibility because we are unable to think or act on our own.  Sheep it is!    

 
Tom          
Title: Re: Nice
Post by catlind on Dec 20th, 2005, 2:13am
Back to the originally scheduled program...

Does it honestly surprise ANY of you here that the gov't is eavesdropping?? ?  I'm sure there are a few here that have heard of packet sniffers....military created those and the DoD has been using them since the 'net' has been around.

Just because they can't/couldn't use it in court doesn't mean they haven't been doing it.  I've had personal experiences with them listening while Clark was in Bosnia and I was still in Canada.  I wasn't even a US resident at the time, but it didn't stop them from listening anyway.

Please tell me none of you are that naive as to believe the gov't (not just the US one) hasn't been eavesdropping all along.

Try talking on the phone to a friend in Canada and mention that you would kill for some president's choice cookies.  You'll start hearing clicks on the line...

Cat
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Charlie on Dec 20th, 2005, 8:36am
Of course.

Anyone who believes the government doesn't listen, run through mail, computers, credit cards, travel, you name it is living in a fantasy.  It's been that way largely since WWII. The thing is to keep it as rare and inconvenient as possible, although the latter is slipping away with the advent of these little toys. It's one reason I wouldn't waste money on "privacy" stuff on the internet.

Charlie http://www.kolobok.wrg.ru/smiles/personal/to_keep_order.gif?SSImageQuality=Full
Title: Re: Nice
Post by imnotbub on Dec 20th, 2005, 4:10pm
 The next thing we need to do is take out Iran.


This quote amazes me.
Do I think Iran needs a beatn?   You bet.
But what gives us the rite to take out ANYBODY that doesn't attack us?
Nothing.
Am I an isolationist?
Not really. There are plenty of things going on in the world that need to be addressed. I just want the motives to be stated honestly. Are we in the middle east because we are worried about the poor average Iraqi? Did our wonderful president send our children into harms way because of 9/11 or did he use it as an excuse?
Can you say OIL? I knew you could.
Russia is selling nukes to these people and I don't see us invading them. That is more of a threat to our security than a few crazies with sand for brains.

Support our troops, not the war.
Title: Re: Nice
Post by forgetfulnot on Dec 21st, 2005, 1:56am
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
Benjamin Franklin


Eat that shit Jonny
Title: Re: NiceWhen you see a rattlesnake poised to strik
Post by Mattchew on Dec 21st, 2005, 2:16pm
When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not wait until he has struck before you crush him.
--Franklin D. Roosevelt
Title: Re: Nice
Post by BobG on Dec 21st, 2005, 8:38pm
Want to know what I think?
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Mattchew on Dec 21st, 2005, 8:48pm
...........why not................
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Jonny on Dec 21st, 2005, 8:51pm

on 12/21/05 at 20:48:28, Mattchew wrote:
...........why not................


I already know Matt, the phrase "Eat that shit jonny" was invented in Vegas.......LMMFAO ;;D
Title: Re: Nice
Post by Mattchew on Dec 21st, 2005, 8:57pm
must be a story in there somewhere................


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