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        New Message Board Archives >> 2005 General Board Posts >> Paris Burning
        
(Message started by: Bondservant on Nov 6^th, 2005, 3:01pm)

Title: Paris Burning
Post by Bondservant on Nov 6^th, 2005, 3:01pm

Sitting here watching and reading the news of ten days of riots in France. Seems a couple of kids of North African extraction were hiding from the cops in a power station and electrocuted themselves (so says the press anyway). Not sure why, but lots of their ethnic kin are burning cars and businesses. Pretty scary... Cops can't seem to catch them. They are running all over France now, urban and rural areas as well, torching cars and trashing homes, businesses. French authorities really have their hands full. I live in Stuttgart, about an hour and a half from Strasbourg France. Hope they get this sorted out.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Karla on Nov 6^th, 2005, 5:42pm

I will pray that this passes quickly and peacefully.I read that the cops stated that they were not chasing them at all and have no idea why the kids were in there. But the people are still rioting and acting like terrible people.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by cootie on Nov 6^th, 2005, 8:33pm

Didn't the kids or punks die and the cops are bein blamed for racial stuff so the ethnics are riotiing and goin berzerk......lame excuses to pillage Pam

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Charlie on Nov 6^th, 2005, 9:18pm

Is this the story of kids of young men that were electrocuted while runnning away from the police?

A strange story but awful consequences.

Charlie

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by CHTom on Nov 6^th, 2005, 10:49pm

Yup, that's what started it.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Mr. Happy on Nov 7^th, 2005, 12:19am

From CNN:
"Since October 27, 3,460 cars had been torched, the official said."

Seems there's a theme here. Why so obsessed with cars? Did Fiat, Volvo or Lee Iacoccaine piss them off?
I don't understand other countries, but then again, I seldom wander far from my home town.

One of you worldly folks will surely explain it.
RJ

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Jasmyn on Nov 7^th, 2005, 1:24am

RJ, I'm not happy to report that I'm by no means worldly but

Quote:

3,460 cars had been torched

Is a custom in Africa when there are riots. I have no more an answer to this question of escalation in destruction than I presume that you or any of us have [smiley=huh.gif]

Just hope it will end soon.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by zanychef on Nov 7^th, 2005, 1:28am

its not sure wether the police were even after the two guys who got killed in the power station [smiley=huh.gif]

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Ueli on Nov 7^th, 2005, 1:35am

You know, during the migration of nations about 1500 years ago the notorious Vandals marched through Spain and then settled in North Africa. In recent years the descendants of this brutal people flocked to France, mostly to live there in the pockets of taxpayers. Especially the adolescent, who are too lazy to learn French, act in the true fashion of their forefathers, destroying out of pure delight for destruction. They set fire not only to cars (alone 800 this night) but to busses too. They light schools and kindergardens, libraries and sports facilities built especially for these fuckers, in short everything that's inflammable. Of course, they attack their natural enemies, the police, but for good measure don't stop for firefighters and paramedics.

That's what you get if you let xenophile commies and green softies make the immigration laws.

[smiley=furious.gif] [smiley=furious.gif] [smiley=furious.gif] [smiley=hammer.gif] [smiley=hammer.gif] [smiley=hammer.gif]

PS. Randy French cars are Citroën and Peugeot :P

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by pubgirl on Nov 7^th, 2005, 3:03am

Whatever the truth is (and who knows for sure at this point?) people BELIEVE they were either being chased or had to hide from the police as they didn't want to be stopped.
I don't think that a politician calling the population "scum" has helped things much. :-/

This is sad, but it isn't the first country where disaffected 1st, 2nd,or even 3rd generation minorities (so not immigrants at all) have felt so disaffected that this has happened. We had similar riots in the UK in the early 80's, triggered by a police incident where someone died accidentally (they were shot though!) but stemming from several areas of several large cities including London where large ethnic minority groups felt discriminated against and badly treated. The hatred and violence that developed was truly terrifying.

These riots in France are on a MUCH larger scale though.

Awful and I understand your concern Bondservant as the press is suggesting that it could spread to other European countries with similar problems.

Wendy

Isn't a car just an easy thing to burn?

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by JenniferD on Nov 7^th, 2005, 7:54am

please forgive my inability to follow the thread or even the news......BUT.....my prayers and thoughts to the families of the kids who were electocuted...REGARDLESS of their actions.

Crime is crime is crime is crime. Don't care if you're immigrant, national, pissed, forgot what i was gonna say here....... oh yeah....no i still forgot.....
anyway, even if I cant remember, there is no excuse for teh rioting and all that crap.

Back to my fog.

Jen

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Jasmyn on Nov 7^th, 2005, 7:58am

You hang in there Jen, fog will lift one of these days! [smiley=hug.gif]

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by deltadarlin on Nov 7^th, 2005, 7:58am

Thursday, 27 October:

- Two boys in the suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois, Bouna Traore, a 15-year-old of Malian background, and Zyed Benna, a 17-year-old of Tunisian origin, flee a police identity check. They scale the wall of an electrical relay station and are electrocuted as they try to hide near a transformer.

- Youths in the suburb, hearing of the deaths, go on a rampage, burning 23 vehicles and vandalising buildings and hurling stones and bottles at riot police.

It could be worse, you could have the black Panthers running the show. Shades of the 1960's and the Chicago Riots.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Bondservant on Nov 7^th, 2005, 3:22pm

The problem is that the French are so hamstrung by their laws on civil liberty that they are unable to take action to protect lives and property, which is the primary responsiblity of a government... I was on a plane from Charles de Gaulle Airport to Congo two years ago and on board were three Congolese who were being deported. Needless to say, these deportees did not want to go, but stay in France. They kicked up a ruckus in the back of the aircraft (they had security guards on them) and the guards were not allowed to restrain them. The deportees knew this and also knew that the pilot had the authority to kick them off the aircraft. Eventually, they authorities put 9 police on the plane to restore order (about half the plane was sympathetic to the deportees), but the police were not permitted to restrain them either, but they did start rousting passengers that were sympathetic to the deportees. It was totally insane. The flight was held up two hours, before someone eventually decided to authorize the plane to take off. The deportees continued to kick up a ruckus until the airplane was airborne, at which point they settled right down. With these riots, the rioters have been shooting at police, but the police have been restrained from shooting because of French civil liberties. The place is descending into anarchy...

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Ronny on Nov 7^th, 2005, 4:42pm

Right on Ueli.

Oh, you forgot Renault, the worst of them lot (burn better too) ;)

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by BarbaraD on Nov 7^th, 2005, 6:53pm

Personally I think all these kids that are causing the rukus (in all parts of the world) need their butts spanked.

Where the hell were their parents when they were growing up to be such punks?

I just read the thread by DD where her child learned the Pledge of Alligence. THAT's things we should be raising our kids to do -- and don't tell me times have changed..... I would still pull my kid's pants down and wear him out (and he's 37) if he decided to do something like this. Geezzz, my mom NEVER had to tell me NOT to do this crap -- I KNEW Better!!!

Back to my old song and verse -- children have to be raised at home or we'll have the things going on that we have today. Parents have to lead by example and spend time with the kids (and BOTH my parents worked back in the OLD days before it was even popular for women to work, so don't tell me that's the reason!).

There are ways to protest something we don't like, but destroying people and property is not the answer. We need to learn to VOTE!

Ok, off soapbox. I lived in France and Germany back in my younger days and it pains me to see what's going on right now.

Hugs BD

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by stevegeebe on Nov 7^th, 2005, 7:53pm

Bless you Mom.

I've been following this story at first report. No cable (yet) will drive you to the computer.

There is so much more to this uprising....way more than I can say here.

The truth is being snuffed out, as is what happen in a socialist leaning society, too busy or to self involved to see that they are too being snuffed out.

Nothing left, pardon my pun, to rally around.

Death by political correctness and smug indifference.

Steve G

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Jonny on Nov 7^th, 2005, 7:57pm

France just needs to surrender, works for them every time.....LOL ;;D

(Sorry Rex)

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by pubgirl on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:03pm

on 11/07/05 at 15:22:54, Bondservant wrote:

The problem is that the French are so hamstrung by their laws on civil liberty
.

As far as serious riots go, many accepted civil liberties become a bit irrelevant for the duration don't they?
My experience of riots in London was that they can sometimes be stopped in their very early stages by diplomatic handling and promises of social change, but once they are well underway it is really a kind of war and the faster, and I'm afraid to say, harder the police squash it the less EVERYONE gets hurt. I don't just speak theoretically as I was a Police Officer in Brixton in the 80's so saw a lot. We learned from the first riots and when the second ones started two years later, what worked was going in early on with HUGE numbers of police officers in full protective gear, horses and dogs and swamping the streets so as not to allow blockading and small groups forming into large organised armies.

The situation in France looks beyond distastrous now, our news said there was now rioting in 600 towns and cities and the Police are being shot at, this sounds almost like civil war, not rioting so maybe a war is how it should be treated by the law enforcement agencies e.g. bring in the army and water cannon etc before more people die.

I also don't think the rioters see France as a place where Civil Liberties apply equally to them. It doesn't strike me as tactful banning Muslim girls from wearing the Hijab to school when France has Western Europe's largest Muslim population — about 5 million — and Islam is the second religion in the country. I'm not saying our record on civil liberties is exemplary, we have our own integration and relations problems here but we couldn't do what France did, even if we wanted to here because the law doesn't allow it. I am a bit confused how France could as I thought they were governed by the same European laws and directives as we are.

Wendy

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by rextangle on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:13pm

Well, I wasn't gonna participate in this thread, but...

Well, the current problem is the invasion of North Africans to France. Algerians, Morrocans, Tunisians, etc..It's nothing new. Look at the city of Marseilles. It used to be beautiful.. now it's a dangerous place for a French Native to be...

They come to France, reproduce and then obtain citizenship, etc... then reproduce again and again, and don't work. The government give them money to help them, and yes, tax payers get pissed.
But the main problem is when they want France to "adopt" their cultures, etc... Fuck that.

When I was in high school and the government threatened to make us pay for education, we did the same thing.
Burned cars (I've only kinda helped burning a cop car, ok?) and we released thousands of mice in rich department stores, stopped going to school and broke windows of jewlery stores, crystal, porcelain, etc...
Result: Cost of education: 0

The French may suck in most wars (after Napoleon that is) but inside their country, they won't take any shit. They love to strike, protest and riot. End of the story.
Nothing wrong with that. I'm gonna go break something now.

Rex

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by stevegeebe on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:14pm

assimilate

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by pubgirl on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:17pm

Steve

Isn't that a Borg word?

W

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by maffumatt on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:18pm

Sounds like the French are the ones being assimilated, resistance is futile....................

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Jonny on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:23pm

on 11/07/05 at 20:13:44, rextangle wrote:

They come to France, reproduce and then obtain citizenship, etc... then reproduce again and again, and don't work. The government give them money to help them, and yes, tax payers get pissed.
But the main problem is when they want France to "adopt" their cultures, etc... Fuck that.

Man, that sounds fimiliar!!

Go to any motor vehical registry in the US and all the info is printed in 10 diff languages.

If you cant read english, how the fuck can you read the road signs??

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Sandy_C on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:23pm

I think that France is learning that it is not immune to this type of terrorism, anarchy, and destruction. There is not one country in this world that is immune anymore - not us, not anybody. The world is learning now - what does the WORLD intend to do about it? It's a global problem.

Pretty soon, there won't be a "safe place to live" on this planet. And, I for one, pity our descendants.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by rextangle on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:28pm

on 11/07/05 at 20:23:59, Sandy_C wrote:

Terrorism has been in France for a looooooooong time now.

I remember in 1980 when Arabs blew up a Black N Decker factory in France with all french workers in it, because they were pissed at the US, and that's one incident amongst too many.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by pubgirl on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:35pm

on 11/07/05 at 20:28:57, rextangle wrote:

and not all are immigrants- ETA are home grown

W

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by rextangle on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:40pm

Never said "all of them", but the majority!

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Filbert on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:45pm

This would be the chance to take cheap shots at the French and post a picture of old man Chirac but wouldn't want to stoop that low! ;)

Fil.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by pubgirl on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:46pm

or Jean-Marie Le Pen, he was in the French Foreign legion in Algeria, perhaps he can add some "local knowledge ;;D

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by rextangle on Nov 7^th, 2005, 8:58pm

on 11/07/05 at 20:46:19, pubgirl wrote:

or Jean-Marie Le Pen...

Not a name to mention in my presence!
>:(
He can suck a turd and choke on it, see if I care! ;;D
Rex

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by pubgirl on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:02pm

on 11/07/05 at 20:58:50, rextangle wrote:

Not a name to mention in my presence!
>:(
He can suck a turd and choke on it, see if I care! ;;D
Rex

Hey Rex

Don't faint, we agree on something ;;D

Wendy

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Filbert on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:03pm

on 11/07/05 at 20:13:44, rextangle wrote:

That's a surprising last post Rex as your views sound similar to his.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by rextangle on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:07pm

on 11/07/05 at 21:03:34, Filbert wrote:

That's a surprising last post Rex as your views sound similar to his.

Don't insult me, I'm not in the mood.
You obviously don't know me well at all... if you think I have anything in commun with that douchebag, you better think twice before making that type of accusation.

Stick to your own island and your problems

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Filbert on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:15pm

Sorry I only quoted the words you posted! Has someone stolen your password and posted in your name? They come to France and reproduce...and reproduce again.... How dare they do that? It's not as if the French ever went to Algeria!

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by rextangle on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:24pm

on 11/07/05 at 21:15:31, Filbert wrote:

Do you want to go 17 pages on this?
I personally don't. Just read the 18 pages on OUCH UK.
You want to argue this in pm, please do so...

Rex

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Filbert on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:25pm

OK PMs it is!

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by CHTom on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:27pm

Isn't ETA the Spanish Basque separatist group? Not a nice bunch, but not French.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by pubgirl on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:30pm

on 11/07/05 at 21:27:14, CHTom wrote:

Isn't ETA the Spanish Basque separatist group? Not a nice bunch, but not French.

The Basque area is Spain and South West France John

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 7^th, 2005, 9:40pm

How a riot was handled in Detroit in 1967, blow by blow. Very long but how our government operated, for anyone interested.

From the Lyndon Baines Johnson Library and Museum, National Archives and Records Administration

[TEXT OF ]

FINAL REPORT

of

CYRUS R. VANCE

SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

CONCERNING

THE DETROIT RIOTS

July 23 through August 2, 1967

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Page

I. Introduction 1

II. Narrative of Events 1

III. The Law and Tradition Covering the Use of Federal Troops in Cases of Domestic Violence 27

IV. Economic and Social Assistance 33

V. Administration of Justice 41

VI. Lessons Learned 48

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/johnson/archives.hom/oralhistory.hom/Vance-C/DetroitReport.asp

Under Lessons Learned, which runs for 18 pages:

b. Access to and Evaluation of Data.

To be able to make sound decisions, particularly in the initial phases of the riot, a method of identifying the volume of riot-connected activity, the trends in such
activity, the critical areas, and the deviations from normal patterns must be established. I cannot overemphasize the importance of such information, particularly when the Federal team has to make a
determination as to whether the situation is beyond the control of local and state law enforcement agencies. In Detroit, the best immediately available indicator was the log of incidents requiring police action which was maintained at police headquarters.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by KingOfPain on Nov 7^th, 2005, 10:10pm

on 11/07/05 at 20:23:01, Jonny wrote:

Man, that sounds fimiliar!!

Go to any motor vehical registry in the US and all the info is printed in 10 diff languages.

If you cant read english, how the fuck can you read the road signs??

California
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs12thru16.htm

DMV Wants You To Pass

DMV wants you to pass your test. There are law exams in many different languages. However, you must have the ability to read traffic signs in English. If the language you read is not available, you may take the exam with the help of an interpreter.

New York
http://www.driveanzen.com/nybklet/writest/engwt.html

All DMV offices offer this test for learner's permit in English; however, the Manhattan DMV offers this test in approximately 18 different languages-including Japanese.

Nevada
http://www.dmvnv.com/news/03-105.htm

The department has now completed a new version of the test in Spanish. It reflects the latest Nevada traffic laws and the translation contained in the new Spanish Driver Handbook, which was released last year. Prospective drivers in either language can use the touch-screen computer test in writing, have the computer read the questions through headphones or request a printed version.

Nevada...Again
http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4022010&nav=168Y

Elsa Skalkowski is one of many at the DMV who can relate to the confusion, "The driving books that are translated in Spanish are only translated for certain type of Hispanics. It's not a general Spanish for everyone. I am from San Salvador. My Spanish is different than those from Mexico, Peru."

Kevin Malone with the DMV says his agency is aware of the different dialects in the Silver State. "The Hispanic community and language is diverse. There are different words for turn, different words for test, which one is right depends on who you're talking to. We're just trying to meet a happy medium."

New Jersy
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:WtiCmSHPivYJ:www.immigration.com/advocacy/DMV/dmv_letters.rtf+dmv+test+different+languages&hl=en

All MVC customers, irrespective of their legal status, are given equal treatment.

Connecticut
http://www.newhavenadvocate.com/gbase/News/content.html?oid=oid:78772

DMV spokesperson Bill Seymour agrees in principle about offering Spanish-speaking road-test instructors: "It's quite understandable to want that service. In an ideal world, the DMV would do that." In an ideal world, he says, the department would also have bilingual examiners on board for all 15 languages in which the written test's offered.

Taking the road test requires very little English, Seymour points out. "[Test-takers] don't even need to speak English.

:o

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by pubgirl on Nov 7^th, 2005, 10:16pm

on 11/07/05 at 21:40:21, Kevin_M wrote:

How a riot was handled in Detroit in 1967, blow by blow. Very long but how our government operated, for anyone interested.

Interesting stuff Kevin. The control centre stuff and protection for the other services involved like Firemen was born out in our riots too. We had a command and control centre too and deployed units from there with one person in charge of all personnel, it was a bit like a war room you see in the old films where we had a big map and moved the units around on it so we always knew where everyone was, it gets terribly chaotic otherwise.

France has gone a bit beyond that now though :(

Sadly our firemen were attacked repeatedly too and it was in protecting them that a PC was murdered during the riots here.

Title: Re: Paris Burning
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 7^th, 2005, 10:31pm

on 11/07/05 at 22:16:07, pubgirl wrote:

France has gone a bit beyond that now though :(