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        New Message Board Archives >> 2005 General Board Posts >> Explosions In Egypt!
        
(Message started by: Carl_D on Jul 22nd, 2005, 11:38pm)
Title: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Carl_D on Jul 22nd, 2005, 11:38pm
Just read this.  :'(

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8671549/

The way things are going... we may be heading for World War III.

Carl
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by cootie on Jul 22nd, 2005, 11:50pm
Ya know.......scarey shit is goin down......and I sit here and wonder WTF do terrorist types 'really want'.......is there anything that could or would be changed that would stop them all and there be peace ? I really really doubt that........guess a terrorist plan is to terrorize even if it is just to make you paranoid in your own skin Pam
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Carl_D on Jul 22nd, 2005, 11:56pm

on 07/22/05 at 23:50:25, cootie wrote:
guess a terrorist plan is to terrorize even if it is just to make you paranoid in your own skin Pam



Exactly!

I say Fuck 'em and as BOC said... Don't Fear The Reaper

CD
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by cootie on Jul 23rd, 2005, 12:13am
BTW.......last week when I was checkin out my groceries and stuff at the local Walmart I seen something that rally freaked me out........this lady came walking in all dressed in floor length flowy black outfit and was compleltey cover'd except her eyes.......dam it was hot out too and to have to dress like that !!!!! Was hot material like stuff and I about turned to stone when she walked past me......big lady too in all ways. Now WTF are them types doin in my town ? I mean somewhere in this town is a husband that has that sort of rules to make her continue to dress that way around here......is he my dentist, my doctor or pharmacist !? (just useing those occupations to make a point here).......there's so many in this town from over there and, yeah......I suppose I am feeling "terror-in-them" Pam

Most that ran the stores and all have disapear'd.....closed up or whatever and alot dress differently now since 911. But I still WONDER. Now most run small gas stations I noticed and there NOT very freindly !!! I jus dunno.......are we watching them close........esp any that go back and forth home ??  
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Gator on Jul 23rd, 2005, 12:42am
World War III was the Cold War.  We are now in the midst of World War IV - the war against radical Islamic Terrorism.  This is one we can't afford to lose.

Batten down the hatches, it's going to be a bumpy ride.  
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by burnt-toast on Jul 23rd, 2005, 1:48am

on 07/22/05 at 23:38:23, Carl_D wrote:
Just read this.  :'(

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8671549/

The way things are going... we may be heading for World War III.

Carl



In this type of war who/what/where do you attack?  

How do you fight a global Holy War that has no specific objectives other than to cause terror through shocking  attacks that lack strategic purpose.

How can you utilize milatary and technological superiority when there are no battle lines or battle fields for that matter and attacks will most likely be in metropolitan areas.

With backing from the U.S. (and other nations) Islamic fundamentalists broke the bank of Russia because it could not afford to continue fighting this very type of war.  What makes the U.S. immune to the same financial disaster?  Nothing - the growing national debt and incrasing trade deficits have the U.S. on a fast track to the same disaster.  

While this Holy War goes on - how can we afford to deal with China - the last vestage of large communistic govenment that:  
  • is rapidly displacing U.S. manufacturing capabilities.
 
  • is buying up U.S. debt faster than we can grow it.
 
  • is ramping up its military - both in numbers and technology using U.S. dollalrs.
 
  • has created steel and oil gluts by ramping up its manufacturing capabilities and stockpiling for its military buildup.  

Allowing and promoting this makes no sense but we have "Global Corporations" owned by/funding our political leaders who are reaping huge profits from lopsided "free trade" *NOT FAIR TRADE* agreements that fuel China's power.

The only interest nations have in the Middle East is oil.  The only wealth and power Middle Eastern nations have is oil.  Technoligies to dramatically decrease dependence on oil and render the Middle East a non-issue exist - but are not being developed.

Allowing this makes no sense but we have global oil companies owned by/funding our political leaders who are reaping huge profits from the endless demand for oil.

If anyone thinks this is a Bush/Republicans issue guess again Democrats own significant stakes in these oil companies too.  Finally, regardles of the administration - Democratic or Republican in the last few decades these problems have escalated.      

Globalization, greed and attempting to change foreign cultures to conform to some ideal global model is the problem.  History has repeatedly proven that no Nation -regardless of its power can conquer or police the world.  We've learned nothing from history and if we don't change course soon we are going to repeat it.

Tom  
 
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Lizzie2 on Jul 23rd, 2005, 1:58am
It makes me worried that some people have an extreme reaction and now feel differently about all muslims, even to the point of treating them quite differently.

My nextdoor neighbor family is from India - they are Muslim.  They do practice some traditional culture, but as far as the 4 in that family, all of them dress in normal attire on a daily basis!  They're a very very nice family.

Lubaina is probably in her residency now - she went to med school in Philadelphia.  Tasneem is planning to go to dental school.

Their father used to be an engineer for Amtrak until he got laid off several years ago - not sure what his job is now.

At any rate, I just feel bad that all muslims now suffer because of the extreme radicals.   :-/
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by LeLimey on Jul 23rd, 2005, 2:35am

on 07/23/05 at 00:13:42, cootie wrote:
........this lady came walking in all dressed in floor length flowy black outfit and was compleltey cover'd except her eyes.............big lady too in all ways.


And you were quite certain this was a lady Pam? The trouble with the burka is that ANYONE can be under it. We see alot of "foreign" arabs wearing them here (In London mainly) but our home grown variety wear western clothes. I haven't seen anyone in a burka outside of the shopping districts in the West End of London ever come to think of it. That someone living in the middle of the USA is making his wife wear one makes me wonder WTF he is doing there if he is that determined to keep his culture. Most people when they emigrate do so for a "better" life..


on 07/23/05 at 01:58:49, Lizzie2 wrote:
It makes me worried that some people have an extreme reaction and now feel differently about all muslims, even to the point of treating them quite differently.....At any rate, I just feel bad that all muslims now suffer because of the extreme radicals.


Nobody here is treating muslims any differently. We have always had some race crime - where doesn't? BUT there hasn't been any increase reported. I haven't heard of any racial crimes reported lately at all as it goes. I'd like to see where you got your impression that ALL muslims are suffering from though.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by sandie99 on Jul 23rd, 2005, 2:43am
I can tell that slowly people in here are getting worried: in 2 weeks' time athletes from all around the world are coming to Finland. The news do not mention it directly, but I can tell that every time some terrorism expert is telling opinions the journalists want to know for sure that nothing will happen in here. Finland is very uninteresting country to terrorists (thank God for that) but the world championships make us bit more interesting.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by hdido on Jul 23rd, 2005, 2:57am
I am less afraid of race crime or terrorists than of governments taking away our basic liberties and  civil rights in the name of "protecting" us from evildoers.  There are people in prisons in the US, some for years, who have not been charged with anything, have no access to lawyers or the outside world at all because they are "suspected" of having something to do with terrorism.  Remember your history, folks-the greatest threat to any nation is its own government, doesn't matter what party.  We had a taste of it during WWII with the internment of innocent Japanese (but, interestingly enough, not Germans).  If democracies are going to remain democracies, then suspected terrorists should be treated like any other suspected criminal:  they should go through the same legal process and have the same legal rights.  I think that it is a bit naive to say that people who "look" Middle Eastern or are Muslims are not going to be treated differently-if not by the people then certainly by governments.  The French already have had a law for several years making it a crime to be acquainted with someone, no matter how little and even if you have no knowledge of their plans if they later turn out to be terrorists.  I see the US and now the UK moving in the direction of establishing more of a police state type government and in the midst of justified fear, the people will go along, but once laws are passed they are difficult to rescind, particularly since all governments, IMO, like to have more control over their populations.  Read "1984"....I just think that Orwell may have used the wrong date.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Topical on Jul 23rd, 2005, 8:22am
We made it through the commies and this conflict is nothing in comparison. Remember all those missiles pointed at us that would cause a nuclear winter?

This reminds me of the 70's when hijacking of airplanes was the norm.  It came and then it largely went away until 9/11.

The ones who have attacked us do not wear a burka or one of those prayer hats. They wear sweatshirts that say "New York" on them. Increased security is only one way to combat this problem.  I am not going to endorse genocide or locking people up en masse as was done in WWII.

We need more friends over there who will turn in these people. That's the only real thing I can think of that will control this problem. There will always be lapses of security. I can guarantee that if people start burning down mosques it will only get worse, much worse.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by burnt-toast on Jul 23rd, 2005, 10:20am

on 07/23/05 at 08:22:07, Topical wrote:
We made it through the commies and this conflict is nothing in comparison. Remember all those missiles pointed at us that would cause a nuclear winter?

This reminds me of the 70's when hijacking of airplanes was the norm.  It came and then it largely went away until 9/11.

The ones who have attacked us do not wear a burka or one of those prayer hats. They wear sweatshirts that say "New York" on them. Increased security is only one way to combat this problem.  I am not going to endorse genocide or locking people up en masse as was done in WWII.

We need more friends over there who will turn in these people. That's the only real thing I can think of that will control this problem. There will always be lapses of security. I can guarantee that if people start burning down mosques it will only get worse, much worse.


Don't underestimate the potential for disaster this type of war presents.  

We haven't survived Communism - in fact our economic policies are helping build the industrial and ecomomic power of the largest Communistic Nation left - China.  China is only beginning to build its military capabilities with U.S. dollars and flex its new power but it is already a frightening force to contend with that simply ignores any human rights and economic treaties it agrees to.      

Hdido is right - free nations are using our new fear as a means to implement laws that eliminate basic human rights and restrict freedoms within their own populations.  Establishing police states in the name of combating terrorism is not protecting freedom.

Nations are spending hundreds of billions of dollars and sacrificing countless lives to combat terrorism and bring democracy to nations/people that have no interest in living in democracies.  Our milatary actions are fueling hatred and only feeding a Holy War that is costly and can't be won.

Without secure borders carrying the Holy War to the U.S. is an easy task.  Yet our borders remain wide open and in fact our government is more intent on passing ligislation like the "Patriot Act" to create a police state  than proactively stoping potential terrorists.   What should we make of this policy?        

We have no Friends over there - NONE.  Saudi Arabia is the closest thing to friend - and they openly discuss the need to destroy America and "crush our skulls" on their national TV.  We're even hated in Kuait - what does that tell you?  

Middle Eastern nations have been at war with one another since the dawn of time.  The only thing uniting these nations in Holy Wars throughout history has been their willingness to oppose any outside interference with their cultures.  Read your history books - every nation attempting to change these cultures paid dearly fighting the same type of war being waged against ours and other nations today.  Russia's involvement in the Middle East in an attempt to control oil reserves is the most recent example of how costly this type of war is.  Thank Islamic Extremeists for the U.S.S.R.'s collapse not the policies of democratic nations.  

Bad foreign and domestic policies driven by greed have led to the current crisis.  Waging wars/policing the globe and eliminating basic human rights is not the solution - it's the problem.

Regardless of how many times this has proven itself over recorded history, greed always leads to bad decisons and dire consequences.  Yet we never learn -Someone or Something (in this case corporations) are always attempting to take over the world and using innocent people(s) as pawns.  Unless our foreign policies stop being driven by greed the Holy War will never stop and like Russia we will be economically bled to death.  This is the primary objective of the Terrorists" and they are achieving their objective.    

Tom        
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by floridian on Jul 23rd, 2005, 10:31am
Nothing new in these explosions - the Muslim Brotherhood has been waging a war against the govt. of Egypt for decades.  Before, they had to do something major (like assasinate Sadat) to get attention.  Now the media is more sensitive to their plight as the Brotherhood is seen al Al Qaeda affiliated.

What's more troubling are reports that the US is prepared to attack Iran (with possible use of nukes) if we get hit by another 9/11 style attack - regardless of whether Iran had anything to do with it.  I guess somebody has to be punished - the US certainly wouldn't use terrorism as a pretext. </sarcasm>  Can't find the links, but apparently some people in the military don't like the 'contingency plans' being drawn up - would transform WWIV from intermittent battles with an amorphous foe to a major shit-storm across the Middle East.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Lizzie2 on Jul 23rd, 2005, 11:37am

on 07/23/05 at 02:35:28, LeLimey wrote:
Nobody here is treating muslims any differently. We have always had some race crime - where doesn't? BUT there hasn't been any increase reported. I haven't heard of any racial crimes reported lately at all as it goes. I'd like to see where you got your impression that ALL muslims are suffering from though.



Well, there have been several reports of it here ever since 9/11.  I know that people do fear things.  Right after 9/11, there were quite a few articles about people of middle eastern decent being questioned for all kinds of reasons - held up in airports for no apparent reason, etc.  It's often a hot topic of conversation on the news.  There were quite a few stories coming out of muslim communities just in this area alone where people's shops were destroyed and other such events after 9/11.

So - that's why I worry from time to time.  I know that most people don't act or feel that all muslims are terrorists, but there are those out there who do!
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by maffumatt on Jul 23rd, 2005, 11:41am

http://www.islamundressed.com/
everyone should read this
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by yikes-another-one on Jul 23rd, 2005, 11:41am
:)

You don't have to be Christian
to believe in a higher power,
and to get a personal relationship with it.

The Bible is the source I turn to,
and it promises a

PEACE that PASSES UNDERSTANDING

Take a look around this planet,
with scorpions,sharks, Survival of the fittest,
Hurricanes, Monsoons, Floods and Droughts,
Forest fires, Lack, Fear, Deadly things....
and terrorists.

We are promised, that if we turn to the Creator,
and rely on him,
that no thing will kill us.
That we could eat poison,
walk through firey trials,

and still not taste of the final death.

Somewhere between life and death
we find courage and faith...
and that is where the peace rises up.
When the creator has already won,
and everything that is was crated by him,
there is no place for fear,
there is no time for worry.

This life is a quick joyride,
you blink and a hundred years goes by.

We are not guaranteed
another heartbeat, we are not even
safe from choking on our next swallow....
so just live it all to the fullest,
and know that You are part of soemthing eternal.

He is watching over his creation,
the same way a new cook watches
over a pan of frying eggs, fiddling and
mving it aroudn so it won't burn, but leaving
it over the heat until the egg solidifies
and is "done"

When this earth is done,
who cares.
We might be around to watch it,
we might be onto a new assignment.

It really won't affect my today....
if I am lucky enough to get another today.

Relax and do you best.
That is all that is anyone's job.
Forget about judgement and right or wrong,
just pass on the love and the knoweldge
that you have, make your life a better place,
and let that be the legacy you pass on to the entire world.

It is what it is, right E?

peace does pass understanding.
If you use your ears and eyes
you would dread crossing the street,
camping in the dessert, eating processed food....
everything in life is dangerous,
so what.

My god is more powerful than the poisonous snakes
that pollute the earth.
He will protect me, if he wants to.
It's His will that allows me to live and work and play.
So be it.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by nani on Jul 23rd, 2005, 11:43am
Well said, TJ.  :)
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Lizzie2 on Jul 23rd, 2005, 12:22pm
Helen - here are a few links that I think give a little light on why I said what I did:

http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=138&theType=AA

http://www.glennsacks.com/attacks_on_american.htm

http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw118147_20050708.htm
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by floridian on Jul 23rd, 2005, 12:29pm

on 07/23/05 at 11:41:13, maffumatt wrote:
http://www.islamundressed.com/
everyone should read this


Why??  It's pseudo-scholarly clap-trap.  In the end, it lumps all Islam with radical Islam.  That's like claiming all Christians are part and parcel of the Christian Knights of the KKK, and that all Christianity is guilty of slaughtering the Indians and enslaving Africans to pick cotton in the name of the cross.  But that doesn't square with the Christians I know, or the Christianity they practice.

It also focuses on the scripture of Islam in a way it would never do with Christianity - who was that pro-family 'Prince of Peace' who said:

   Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.  (Matthew 10).

Yeah, if you want to quote scripture, you can portray both Christianity and Islam as violent.  But the people I know in both religions are pretty ordinary - they aren't bearing a sword against anyone.  
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Topical on Jul 23rd, 2005, 2:25pm
Tom,

If China wants to make money they have to go through us -  the free world. It suits their interests to keep us well fed and with money. We are the gasoline that drives their engine. With or without communism it is a country that has so many people that it will always remain a rival to others. The same can be said of India.

I don't know how old you are but the communism of today is not like it was in the decades past. We needed a new enemy and terrorism was it.

Terrorism is a great excuse to limit our freedoms. If it wasn't foreign then it would be domestic terrorism. The government has weaved us into this situation. The problem is there, now how do you think it should be handled?

I hear your complaint against our liberty being taken away. I don't like it either. I suggested we talk and make friends with the arab people. The sooner we do that the better. So what would you do?

What holy war? It was declared by a small number or radicals. If it was a holy war the US would be swarmed over within a few weeks. In a holy war everyone who is muslim would attack. You seem to be buying into fear and hyperbole. If you want a holy war, then burn down mosques and attack innocent muslims.

Saudi Arabia is not our closest friend over there. They asked us to remove our forces and bases. We agreed as they would not allow us to use planes stationed there to bomb Iraq.

"The Iraq war was directed largely from U.S. Central Command headquarters, which had been established in Qatar. U.S. forces also used expanded bases and runways in Oman, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates."
From 2003: http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030430-psab01.htm

There's four friends, Egypt would be five. They paid the price with the attack today. Indonesia has the largest muslim population. They have radical groups there too. Still, I would consider Indonesia to be an ally or trading partner. Afghanistan and Iraq are potential friends. India has muslims and we just announced that we are selling them weapons. Israel is in the region, I don't know if you want to include them.

"Middle Eastern nations have been at war with one another since the dawn of time...."
Do you think that the western world has not had an equal number of battles even religious based wars? This includes Americans who slaughtered Native Americans to take over the land. We're not innocent, we conquered others for our own needs. Why should they be any different? Why put arabs into some unique category?

Russia went into Afghanistan to get their oil? Do you mean hash oil? You can thank the US government who provided stinger missiles and trained the mujahudeen and other tribes. It was Afghanistans who wanted their country back. We were glad to help them out.

"Bad foreign and domestic policies driven by greed have led to the current crisis."
I totally agree with you here. However, it wasn't only greed, oil is a very important resource to our society. The control of it is very important. We didn't attack because there were terrorists over there. It's an excuse, the same excuse being used to limit our freedoms.

We stirred up the honey pot, what should we do now that we are in this position? I don't recall reading your solution to the problem.

There was a funeral today for one of the people who was murdered in the London bombings. I think these words are very profound.

"These present atrocities and Anthony's death have raised great emotions in us," Auxiliary Bishop of Westminster Alan Hopes told mourners. "We are angry, we are appalled and we are grieving. But as Christians we cannot yield to bitterness, we cannot yield to thoughts of revenge."
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Topical on Jul 23rd, 2005, 2:34pm

on 07/23/05 at 10:31:05, floridian wrote:
Nothing new in these explosions - the Muslim Brotherhood has been waging a war against the govt. of Egypt for decades.  Before, they had to do something major (like assasinate Sadat) to get attention.  Now the media is more sensitive to their plight as the Brotherhood is seen al Al Qaeda affiliated.

What's more troubling are reports that the US is prepared to attack Iran (with possible use of nukes) if we get hit by another 9/11 style attack - regardless of whether Iran had anything to do with it.  I guess somebody has to be punished - the US certainly wouldn't use terrorism as a pretext. </sarcasm>  Can't find the links, but apparently some people in the military don't like the 'contingency plans' being drawn up - would transform WWIV from intermittent battles with an amorphous foe to a major shit-storm across the Middle East.


So true, it is all because of Israel. Nobody tells us who our friends are though. They can't seem to get the message.

I didn't hear about Iran. I don't see how we can blame another 9/11 attack on them. We probably wouldn't need the  nukes but we would need a draft. I don't think they have nukes yet in Iran(hoping). I wonder if Israel is going to launch another attack like they did before. Surprising they haven't done it yet. If they did, it would be a trigger point.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Kevin_M on Jul 23rd, 2005, 3:20pm

on 07/23/05 at 14:25:25, Topical wrote:
What holy war? It was declared by a small number or radicals. If it was a holy war the US would be swarmed over within a few weeks. In a holy war everyone who is muslim would attack. You seem to be buying into fear and hyperbole.



Agree.
Here, we seem to live in peace ok here, interethnically/religiously, despite this city's dangerous reputation.  This many so nearby is not even a concern, and one of the least of Detroit's worries.  After 9/11, the FBI cleaned house pretty well.



Quote:
Detroit is home to America's largest Arab population at more than 300,000. It has more clubs and cultural centers, social service agencies, national headquarters for Arab groups and Arab businesses than any other U.S. city.  - Detroit Free Press

August 9, 2004 ... Research Detroit Arab American study portrays a complex population. By Diane Swanbrow News Service ... http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0304/July19_04/arabamer.shtml


The U of MI study shows, roughly 57% are Christian and 43% are Muslim, living within the community together.


Kevin M

*terrorists suck

Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Melissa on Jul 23rd, 2005, 4:05pm

on 07/23/05 at 15:20:55, Kevin_M wrote:
The U of MI study shows, roughly 57% are Christian and 43% are Muslim, living within the community together.

This needs to be put in bold print at a size 72 font on every single f'ing message board, newspaper, spam emails and TV news station on the entire planet EARTH!!!

Oh, and I ditto K's "terrorists suck" comment too.

mel
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Charlie on Jul 23rd, 2005, 7:14pm
Frankly, if I have a choice on how to proceed, (yikes, these incidents bring out some lunatics...what a blog. Just the title page was a pretty good indication of its content. BIG. REALLY BIG) I'll stick with Tony Blair and George Bush. Even Bush has a few roots in reality. He's just not interested in you or me; just his wealthy friends, but he's not insane. Not on Iraq but on dealing with these new attacks.

Another example: A spokesman for a Colorado Congressman thinks we should bomb Mecca. I kid you not.

Yahooism at its peak.

To me, there is a whiff of similarity between-these not very religious killers-and the Baader-Meinhof gang....allbeit convoluted. Lots of homegrown types not all that interested in history.

Charlie
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Frank_W on Jul 23rd, 2005, 7:42pm
I agree with every point you made in the above post, Charlie. (And because I've agreed with you on a political thread, I'm certain that this must be a sign that the Apocalypse is near. I think I'll go hide in my bathtub with my teddy bear, now.)  [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Charlie on Jul 23rd, 2005, 9:23pm
http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/Clearly End SIGN.png


Charlie http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/nono2.gif
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by hdido on Jul 23rd, 2005, 11:22pm
Do you have a date for that, Charlie?  I need to know because I want to have as much fun as possible.

It is not a good time to be a Brazilian electrician in London....in case any were considering moving there.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by burnt-toast on Jul 24th, 2005, 12:44pm

on 07/23/05 at 14:25:25, Topical wrote:
We stirred up the honey pot, what should we do now that we are in this position? I don't recall reading your solution to the problem. [/b]


Topical - in responding to your post - several of the solutions that I proposed were included in my earlier posts but I have included them here as well.  To properly respond mine is broken down into multiple replies.

There is much to fear from China – Human rights rank at the bottom of their list and unchallenged power over Asia/Asia Pacific ranks high.  The biggest threat is destabilization of the region.  

China has been building its military capabilities and technologies via undisclosed transactions with Russia and many of our European allies.  China purchased hundreds of Russian bombers and advanced fighters while beginning to produce a new fighter of its own.  With advanced missiles they now have the capability of pinpointing U.S. and allied targets in the region.  In response, we are building up our forces on on Guam.  Where’s China going with their secret buildup?  No other nation in the region can challenge them so its not defensive - they have offensive targets.  

China doesn’t believe they need us as much as you seem to think.  In fact by buying up our national debt and becoming our primary source of just about everything manufactured, China believes we need them more than they need us.  The most recent port workers strike highlights the choke hold importing nations – mostly China and Oil proudcing nations have on our economy.  This strike of only a few weeks nearly shut  this country down - red flags should have gone up everywhere.  Finally China makes absolutely no attempt to hide the fact that they have no intentions of conforming to any agreements that we have with them.

China is developing the leverage and strategic advantages it needs to move on targets within Asia/Asia Pacific and keep the U.S. from intervening.  Furthermore history has shown that in long all out wars nations that replace stuff fastest have the best chance of winning – China’s abilities may now exceed our own, giving China a great strategic advantage if we were to intervene in any offensive by China.  

No nation can remain strong when it permits massive trade deficits so as to achieve massive wealth for a small percentage of its population.  The U.S. is the only remaining nation without trade protection laws.  I’m not against foreign trade but we must establish and enforce “fair trade” laws to balance imports and exports.  We are currently far too dependent of foreign imports for national security and we are being transformed  into a debtor nation.              
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by burnt-toast on Jul 24th, 2005, 12:49pm

on 07/24/05 at 12:44:30, burnt-toast wrote:
Topical  Response II - in responding to your post - several of the solutions that I proposed were included in my earlier posts but I have included them here as well.  To properly respond mine is broken down into multiple replies.


What to do do about terrorism?  As previously posted we desperately need to police our borders.  We have no control over terriorist groups when they freely enter the country through porous borders.  Securing a nation from terriorist attacks starts at the border not initiating wars in foreign countries and scraping a few bucks from somewhere for homeland security (that’s in comparison to the cost of the wars).  Regardless of their place of origin, we must also locate and deport illegals with expired visas who remain in this country.  Particularly those identified as potential terrorists whom the INS has lost track of.  Their remaining here constitutes a crime and its time to enforce existing imigration laws and crack down.  The threat of domestic terrorism must be delt with through existing laws and the various law enforcement agencies that already exist.  We don’t need the “Patriot Act” that gives KGB type powers to government – it needs to be repealed without delay.  


Talking and making friends with the Arab people is not reality.  Decades of bad foreign policy have created massive distrust and hatred of the U.S. in the Middle East.  Secondly the region is ruled by Religious Fundamentalism that marks all non-Islamic peoples as infidels.  Even if you could get governments on board - the people (and I believe this is their right) will never accept our presense.  As previously posted my recommendation is to start decreasing dependence on oil.  Develop existng technologies i.e., Hydrogen, Solar, and possibly establish reliable mass transportation capabilities instead of burning hundreds of billions of dollars fighting a Holy War that will never end.  

Make no mistake about it – this is a Holy War.  Democracy is a much feared and hated term in Islamic nations.  It isn’t a small number of radicals that have declared Jehad it’s a call for all of the Islamic Faith to oppose the infiels.  Nations are not  “swamed over” by Jehad, they are relentlessly attacked in gurilla raids that drain resolve and leave invaders in economic ruin.  This type of war is not fought by governments but by a people who because they mistrust other Islamic factions attack rather independently making suppressing them impossible.  Repeatedly in history this call for Jehad has brought opposing Islamic factions together only for the common defence of Islam and they have consistently worn the infidels down.  Frankly I believe this is their right in their countries.  
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by burnt-toast on Jul 24th, 2005, 12:54pm

on 07/24/05 at 12:49:30, burnt-toast wrote:
Topical  Response III - in responding to your post - several of the solutions that I proposed were included in my earlier posts but I have included them here as well.  To properly respond mine is broken down into multiple replies.


You’re right about Egypt, Oman, Kuwait and The Arab Emirates from a standpoint of their governments, but we have not friends there.  These governments along with Saudi Arabia use us for protection and we in turn use them for petroleum.  Unfortunately it is the Islamic faithful in these countries that refuse to accept our presense in the region.  Over the decades we have not given them any reason to trust us and again in the Islamic Faith they are taught that we are infidels who must be driven out.  This is indeed a Holy War that we cannot win.  Russia misunderstood this when they stepped into Afganistan, they were unprepared and unable to suppress constant gurilla attacks, not large scale battles, no strategic ground to gain, just a relentless series of attacks from a small number of radicals that turned out to be a large number of Islamic faithful from across the region.

Many of the religious based wars over the milenia were christian fundamentalists against Islamic fundamentalists.  Christian invasions into the middle east to suppress Islamic beliefs have always been disasters and in fact helped to spred Islam throughout the region.  I know this is an aweful distinction but Native Americans and many other western cultures were slaughtered for a strategic purpose - stealing land and resourses mostly.  Nothing makes what happened right but there is a unique difference.  Islamic nations have been at war for religious reasons, shedding blood and giving ones life for Islam is taught.  Most of these wars were short lived and were actually raids to supress factional differences between religious sects.  Not that there wasn’t any, but there was very little strategic value involved.  This very reason alone is why Israel and Palistine will never find peace.  No matter how much territory one gives up or receives, religious differences will always result in violence.    

I didn’t say Russia went into Afganistan to get their oil.  I said Russia got involved in Afganistan in an attempt to control oil reserves.  There is some debate over how/why Russia entered Afganistan but I have never belived Russia acted in the interest of preserving the existing Afgan government by squelching rebellion.  My belief - Aftanistan would have given Russia strategic value and Russia tried taking advantage of  turmoil to obtain a control point in Central Asia between the oil producing regions of the Middle East and China.  At the time Afgtanistan was split along various ethnic, polical and tribal lines much like Iraq.  After entering Aftanistan and supposedly driving out the rebellion Russia found itself fighting an incrasing number of Islamic Fundamentalists in  endless gurilla attacks.  No big battles, no ground to be gained, no ability of Russia to deploy enough forces to be everywhere and anywhere at once.  Sound Familiar?  Russia soon discovered that military intervention and massive force was useless.  Eventually this war collapsed Russia’s already weak economy and it’s intervention in Aftanistan is creditied with massively increasing Islamic Fundamentalism in Central Asia.  Remember this was also a Holy War called for against an Infidel invader.  Ultimately I believe this strategic value is the only reason the U.S. and Russia have come to terms on policing Aftanistan today.      

Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by burnt-toast on Jul 24th, 2005, 12:58pm

on 07/24/05 at 12:54:39, burnt-toast wrote:
 Finally
 

Decades of bad foreign and domestic policies are why talking with the Islamic People isn’t going to work.  Fighting a religious war with a capatilistic approach to war isn’t realistic.  Democracy is of little if any interest to the Islamic faithful.  We’ve stepped right into the same pile of crap as Russia.  Our military cabilities are superior but military control of regligiously fueled gurilla warefare is not possible.  Unfortuantely Islamic Fundamentalist resistnace to our presense in the region is growing rapidly.  Increasingly we hear how the insurgents are not from Iraq and that is exactly what Russia could not stop or defend against.  We will/are slowly being drained of resources, our national debt is mounting, China is buying our debt faster than we grow it, China is using our money to build its manufacturing capabilities, military, and military technoligies, our enconomy is in jepardy of being bled out.  Once again greed has determined foreign policy and is pushing the world towards another all out war.  When we refuse or fail to learn from history we are destined to repeat it.  


A solution?  You’ve got to be kidding - once you’ve disturbed a bee hive you have two options (1) kill all the bees (2) run away.  Pick one.  

Some of these are repeated from earlier posts but here goes.  

Resolving decades of failed leadership, greed driven/oppressive foreign policy and economic policies disigned to establish a ruling class in the U.S. will be painful and lengthy.  

Where does it need to start?  

Secure the borders and deport all illegals with expired visas regardless of their national origin.  Basically enforce existing imigration laws.  Now who is going to oppose that?    

Decrease dependence on oil by fully developing existing technoligies and reliable mass transportation  – now who is going to oppose that?

Reign in our massive trade deficit by establishing and enforcing “Fair Trade” laws.  Now who is going to oppose that that?

Starting pulling back from our position as “World Police” and allow foreign cultures to govern themselve as they choose without our interference.  Develop a strict policy of acceptance of our differences and from there start building mutually beneficial relationships.  Now who is going to oppose that?

Reign in our national debt, NOT THE PAPERVERSION OF IT - the debt itself.  End corporate welfare, re-establish tarrifs and duties on imports and impose trade restrictions equal to those of every competing trading nation, re-establish manaufacturing businesses and create jobs internally.  End all unnecessary government handout programs both domestic and foreign, at least until the national debt is paid..  Now who is going to oppose that?

Start electing leaders with real vision and the guts to see these changes through and hold them immediately accountable for their actions.  End all legal bribery that exists in politics – no lobbyists, no political campaign contributions, no special trips, no foreign investors, etc., etc. and make it a Federal Crime punishable by life in prison to accept any form of graft.  Also make it illegal for representatives to accept positions with any corporation for a minimum of two years after they have left office.  Now who is going to oppose that?

I don't think we have the guts to deal with the pain of doing what is necessary.

Tom

Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by hdido on Jul 24th, 2005, 2:34pm
Impossible to secure the borders of the US-they are just too big.  We can't create "Fortress America" and terrorists will not destroy our country, but panic among the population will, especially when our polititians are encouraging it and people are buying into it.  Look at the result of the so called "War on Drugs"-despite massive amounts of money spent, more drugs enter the US now than ever before, so much so that the prices keep going down.  Calm down folks or you'll get a headache.
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by Charlie on Jul 24th, 2005, 6:16pm
Some of the old Mullahs, remember what the Allies did to places like Iran. The British and Americans foisted the late Shah on them. Twice, I think.  I guess they had to during the war. We needed somebody not so cozy with the Nazis. No matter the right or wrong of these things, it's remembered for decades.  They just don't like us over there. Getting out would have been nice but now......still couldn't hurt.

You're right. We don't need more immigration laws. We could have beefed up the enforcement capabilities of the existing agencies.

The gung-ho response...that we let them get away with... was to fight a war against ourselves. The so-called Patriot Act is against the wrong people. It's against you and me and what we've always believed is what we stand for. Throughout history governments have used fear to keep people quiet. It lets them get away with too much. Trent Lott, said shortly after it became law, something to the effect that now maybe the government can do some of the things it always wanted to. Yikes. Talk about scary.

A bunch of monsters like bin Laden, like that we think of them as only religious fanatics. They want a Persian Empire which would also include Arabia. We are in the way and are getting hurt in this mess.

Charlie
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by burnt-toast on Jul 24th, 2005, 6:54pm

on 07/24/05 at 14:34:26, hdido wrote:
Impossible to secure the borders of the US-they are just too big.  We can't create "Fortress America" and terrorists will not destroy our country, but panic among the population will, especially when our polititians are encouraging it and people are buying into it.  Look at the result of the so called "War on Drugs"-despite massive amounts of money spent, more drugs enter the US now than ever before, so much so that the prices keep going down.  Calm down folks or you'll get a headache.


This has nothing to do with creating fortress America or panicing the population.  It's cool to invite the neighbors to share your pool but it's stupid to keep letting them share it after you find out they're pissing in your garden.  

We can muster a few hundred billion to fight wars we can't win instead of proactively stopping the potential for terrorism at the gates?

Our money and troops would have been better deployed securing the borders, a lot less American lives would have been lost and it would be costing a lot less to to do it.  The real shame is that our troops - made up of folks from anywhere USA - have shown courage, bravery, integrity and committment beyond belief.

It would be great if we began demanding from our leaders in Washington, (who sent these brave/committed individuals into unnecessary conflict) just a small percentage of this bravery, commitment and integrity.  However, we lack the guts to force our leaders to be accountable.  

Finally securing our borders would indeed help in the war on drugs by again proactively cutting supply of at its source.  

Tom    
Title: Re: Explosions In Egypt!
Post by burnt-toast on Jul 24th, 2005, 7:12pm

on 07/24/05 at 18:16:44, Charlie wrote:
Some of the old Mullahs, remember what the Allies did to places like Iran. The British and Americans foisted the late Shah on them. Twice, I think.  I guess they had to during the war. We needed somebody not so cozy with the Nazis. No matter the right or wrong of these things, it's remembered for decades.  They just don't like us over there. Getting out would have been nice but now......still couldn't hurt.

You're right. We don't need more immigration laws. We could have beefed up the enforcement capabilities of the existing agencies.

The gung-ho response...that we let them get away with... was to fight a war against ourselves. The so-called Patriot Act is against the wrong people. It's against you and me and what we've always believed is what we stand for. Throughout history governments have used fear to keep people quiet. It lets them get away with too much. Trent Lott, said shortly after it became law, something to the effect that now maybe the government can do some of the things it always wanted to. Yikes. Talk about scary.

A bunch of monsters like bin Laden, like that we think of them as only religious fanatics. They want want a Persian Empire which would also include Arabia. We are in the way and are getting hurt in this mess.

Charlie


I agree wholehartedly Charlie.  You forgot to mention that it was also the U.S. that backed Saddam Hussein and supported his rise to power in Iraq.  Additionally, it was the U.S. that backed Osama Bin Laden and the  Taliban when Russia invaded Afganistan.  Obviously we were not acting alone in these matters.  

We're attempting to get out of a situation that we created.  This is the type of global interference that has created such hatred for the U.S. presense and in fact contributed greatly to the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism.  Talk about your failed foreign policy when you start sacrificing American lives to correct terrible mistakes.  

To get out - oil has to become a non-issue.  I don't see it happening until corporations stop using politics and politicians to increase their assets and the wealth of their stockholders.

Unless the poeple start acting in mass against internal attacks on our freedoms and rights I also see more "Patriot Acts" in our near future.

Tom        


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