Clusterheadaches.com Message Board
        (http://www.clusterheadaches.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        New Message Board Archives >> 2005 General Board Posts >> Unbelieveable!
        
(Message started by: burnt-toast on Jun 23rd, 2005, 11:11am)
Title: Unbelieveable!
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 23rd, 2005, 11:11am
I added this as a thread in another post but would like to get everone's comments on this one.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that local Governments can use eminent domain to seize an individuals property and home for PRIVATE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

Now every U.S. Citizen has to hope that the property and home they bought, paid for, and are taxed to death on doesn't catch the eye of a private developer that is in with local government.  

If it does, private property will basically be stolen to benefit another private entity.  Welcome to China West! [smiley=mad.gif]

Tom
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Frank_W on Jun 23rd, 2005, 11:27am
I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

1. Send wife and daughter to a safe place.
2. Clean guns.
3. Phone friends and family and say my farewells.
4. Make sandwiches.
5. Prepare for one bitch of a firefight.
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by ghost62 on Jun 23rd, 2005, 11:34am

on 06/23/05 at 11:27:11, Frank_W wrote:
I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

1. Send wife and daughter to a safe place.
2. Clean guns.
3. Phone friends and family and say my farewells.
4. Make sandwiches.
5. Prepare for one bitch of a firefight.

[smiley=bigguns.gif] [smiley=bigguns.gif] [smiley=bigguns.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif]

[smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=moonwiggle.gif] [smiley=thumb.gif]

deffinatly would be on I totally agree ....
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by seasonalboomer on Jun 23rd, 2005, 11:53am
When I heard this was going to the Supremes I thought for sure it would be put to  rest that private property holders would prevail. My thoughts were definitely more along the lines of "how could they not prevail?"

It sickens me and just ratchets up the skepticism and disgust that festers within me and many others about our system as it is presently configured. Not only does our government help build and fund SOME companies over others, but now they'll actually go in and strong arm people that are "IN THE WAY". You used to have to be connected in the "mob" to find someone to perform these services for you -- now we just call our local city council.

"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore"
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by forgetfulnot on Jun 23rd, 2005, 12:04pm
5-4 and Bush picks the next one. This is just a little taste of what is to come.

Lee
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by notseinfeld on Jun 23rd, 2005, 12:07pm
Let's just throw the Constitution in trash--not serving even a guideline anymore.

I am disgusted, and outraged as should any other person who once valued their freedom in the US.

Don't speculate on raw land folks---you'll get pennies on the dollar.


Now more than ever we need the Fair Tax (fairtax.org) as implementation of a retail sales tax will eliminate property taxes and thus the incentive for additional revenue per county. Plus, bribing our elected officials may be tougher as at least a property owner could make a stink and stand a chance of keeping their property.
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Karla on Jun 23rd, 2005, 12:11pm
This makes me very mad and sick to my stomach!  Perhaps time to hold another Boston Tea Party in protest?
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Gator on Jun 23rd, 2005, 12:14pm
I've already blown my stack about this topic a couple times over when it was just the local yocals stealing land.  Now the Supremely stupid Court has just pushed us another step closer to communism.  This is why it is important to put "Constitutionalist" judges on the bench.  People who will do their job and interpret the laws according to our constitution - NOT interpret our constitution based on personal opinions and international sentiment.

If there's not an uproar in Congress over this, then you can eventually say sayonara to every other so-called right we hold dear.  I'm thinking it's time for a new revolution.

My representatives and senators have already received my letters of outrage and disgust.
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by maffumatt on Jun 23rd, 2005, 12:17pm

say goodbye to the 5th ammendment
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by giffy76 on Jun 23rd, 2005, 12:50pm
The Becker farm, 180 acres. The f#ck heads in our local gov. forced the family to sell for a fraction of the farms worth because it butts up to land that was donated to the community for a park, what scares me is that my property too butts up to the park. " I got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive and a country boy can survive" not to mention one mean ass wife with a S&W 40 cal. 10 rounds a clip x 4 clips = you best be runnin the other way
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by notseinfeld on Jun 23rd, 2005, 12:55pm
Recent headline case was an 80 year old couple in a house in New London Connecticut. A developer wanted to put up a hotel and some shops but the couple refused to move. Then the developer got the idea that they could nudge the government and condemn the house. Hence the battle of the individual (rights) versus a govenment run amok.

The couple moved in the house when they were married.
They raised their kids there, celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary there and damnit they didn't want to move.
Guess what? Now they have no choice, and neither do you.

Save our ship--vote Libertarian!
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by giffy76 on Jun 23rd, 2005, 1:06pm
They might walk up, but they're sure as hell gonna limp back.
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by giffy76 on Jun 23rd, 2005, 1:28pm
And I would vote the same again and again and again.
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by notseinfeld on Jun 23rd, 2005, 1:30pm
Pardon Moi--

wasn't it the liberal justices in the majority railroading this through?
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Frank_W on Jun 23rd, 2005, 1:41pm
The liberal justices picked Bush?

Well, okay... They might have scratched it a little, but sometimes, that bikini line can really get ITCHY!!


No seriously: How did the liberal justices pick Bush?
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Bob P on Jun 23rd, 2005, 1:42pm
Both of the Clinton appointees voted in favor of this decision. (Ginsberg & Bryer)

All 4 desenting judges were picked by a Republican Pres.
O'Connor - Regan
Rehnquist - Nixon
Scalia - Regan
Thomas - Bush

Freakin Liberals would like to give us a communist state!
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by unsolved1 on Jun 23rd, 2005, 2:19pm
New Admendment

Admendment 5.1

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by forgetfulnot on Jun 23rd, 2005, 3:02pm
I think I will move to Aruba, they put judges in jail! :o
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by JJA on Jun 23rd, 2005, 3:20pm
Strike due process of law too. A conviction is no longer required for your property to be seized if it was "used to facilitate a crime". In fact it can be taken without anyone even being charged with a crime. The burden of proof is on the property owner to prove that the property was not used to facilitate a crime. An anonymous tip may be sufficient to take your home. The Supreme Court said it doesn't violate the 5th amendment because it is a civil matter, not criminal.

Jesse
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 23rd, 2005, 3:25pm

on 06/23/05 at 14:19:48, unsolved1 wrote:
New Admendment

Admendment 5.1

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Missing the line -

"Private property may be taken for private use under the pretext of Economic Development"

I don't know what it's going to take to get the masses to start taking notice and taking action.  The Founding Fathers must be turnin' in their graves.

Tom      

Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by LadyLuv on Jun 23rd, 2005, 5:57pm
This is BULL ----!!  

They had better bring their  lunch, because there's going to be a stand off...
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Callico_Kid on Jun 23rd, 2005, 6:15pm
Tell them to send single/no dependent people to take mine.  

Aren't you glad we have that cabal of miscreants in the Senate to keep judicial candidates that believe in a strict construction of the Constitution.  Richie Daley is going to have a field day in Chicago.  He already got his fingers slapped a few years ago because an individual owns a vacant parcel of land in the loop and has refused to build what the mayor wanted there.  The mayor tried to take it from him on the basis that it was not producing taxes.  Now I guess he can.

Jerry
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Charlie on Jun 23rd, 2005, 10:27pm
Not much new. It's old hat here. I never knew of a government that wasn't a pain in the ash when it came to eminent domain. It's been that way where I live since I was a baby.

Kennedy was apppointed by Republicans. I always liked what happened there. You have to wonder why he wasn't mentioned.....no you don't....

Charlie
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Jun 24th, 2005, 4:42pm
We have the same thing happening right down the street in Hammond Indiana right now.

A huge outdoors store named Cabela's is wanting to buy out a 93 acre golf course and country club along with the historic buildings on it and level it all to build another store.

The members don't want to sell but the Mayor wants the store and the tax revenue so he's now threatening eminent domain.

What a bunch of crap!!!!!
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 25th, 2005, 6:04am
I think the American people need to start demanding the immediate resignations of Justices Ginsberg, Beyer, Scouter, Stevens and Kennedy for rendering this decision.

At the same time we need to show our support for Justices O'Connor, Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas for supporting The Constitution.

One article summed this up best calling this the most brutal attack on this republic's freedom in our history  and further stating that while Conservatives were accusing Liberals of Socialistic Intent - 2 Liberal and 3 Conservative Justices skipped past Socialism and jumped right into Communism.

Three of the basic rights Our Founding Fathers believed were paramont to a free Nation include.

The right to own property - Disolved June 23, 2005
The Freedom of Speech - Under constant attack
The right to keep and bear arms - under constant attack

Do you think the American public will take notice and show the guts to loudly say NO MORE and demand that our Elected Representatives seek an immediate reversal of this decision?

I don't like where this is headed comrade.

Tom  



 
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Jimmy_B on Jun 25th, 2005, 10:24am

on 06/23/05 at 12:14:06, Gator wrote:
My representatives and senators have already received my letters of outrage and disgust.


Right on!...and everbody opposed to Eminent Domain should contact their Senators & Congress.

http://www.senate.gov/
http://www.house.gov/


Jimmy
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 25th, 2005, 1:37pm
Don't forget your State Reps and Senators.  These folks can impose restrictions on the use of eminent domain and will probably feel the pressure more than Fed. Reps. and Senators.

Tom    
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Charlie on Jun 25th, 2005, 10:34pm
While I hate this and it sucks, it's nothing new. It's been around almost everywhere forever. I kid you not.

Charlie
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Gator on Jun 26th, 2005, 4:40am

on 06/25/05 at 22:34:28, Charlie wrote:
While I hate this and it sucks, it's nothing new. It's been around almost everywhere forever. I kid you not.

Charlie



So what...we should lay down and forget it?  Nothing new here?  The Supreme Court just rendered the 5th Amendment null and void - that's new.  Land has been illegally taken in the past so we shouldn't get upset about it now that our highest court has ruled that property can be legally taken from one private citizen and given to another private citizen?

You are right in that the concept of Eminent Domain has always existed.  It is a tool that all governments use to provide for the needs of it's citizens.  The accepted use of eminent domain is that land may be taken from a private citizen for things that will serve the public good such as schools, utility right of ways, roads, etc - NOT A FUCKING HOTEL AND A GYM!  The land owner is to be compensated for his loss by being paid the full fair market value of the property.  The 5th Ammendment did not give the right to use eminent domain - it placed restrictions on the government's use of it.  Now, the court has thrown out the constitution and said "We will tell you what is right based on our personal feelings - screw the constitution."

Time for a new revolution.
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 26th, 2005, 8:11am

on 06/26/05 at 04:40:30, Gator wrote:
The 5th Ammendment did not give the right to use eminent domain - it placed restrictions on the government's use of it.  Now, the court has thrown out the constitution and said "We will tell you what is right based on our personal feelings - screw the constitution."

Time for a new revolution.


Well said.  There is a massive amount of "NEW" here.

The clause "Taken for Public Use" has always served to limit abuses of eminent domain powers but now the Supreme Court interprets the 5th amendemnt as saying "Private Use"  The floodgates are wide open to abuse through corruption, greed and by local officials that simply don't like a resident.  This decision by liberal and conservative justices have moved this Nation into Communism by eliminating the most basic freedom in a free Republic.  The Right To Own Property died June 23, 2005.

This ruling extends eminent domain powers to Private Developers who will profit from seizures of Private Property, homes and businesses.  Essentially all private property is now up for grabs to any developer that can increase a community's tax base and bribe local officials to exercise eminent domain.  No need to negotiate with the landowner - landowners can''t say no.  Individual property rights no longer exist.

Abuses of the 5th amendment, by Local Governments are already widespread and I have personal knowledge here.  

“Just Compensation” means whatever Local Governments offer based on their assessment, not what you paid, not your tax value or market value.

“Due Process of Law” means innocent landowner’s must pay to defend their property in a confusing legal system where the burden of proof is on them.

If landowner’s don’t want to leave or receive unfair offers they often loose more to attorneys fighting a system with rules stacked against citizens.  

In the legal system The Local Government is "assumed acting in the public interest" they can sit back while you burn resources attempting to fight them.  Now citizens will need to fight a partnership between powerful/wealthy, for profit developers and Local Govenment.

Not to downplay a family's plight but we are still getting more coverage on the incident in Aruba than this Communistic action by 5 members of The Supreme Court.

The media is downplaying this major infringement on our rights and citizens need to get their heads out of their asses and fight back.

Tom



     
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by stevegeebe on Jun 26th, 2005, 11:52am
I work for a developer.

I am currently punching out a project that squares with the comments of others that this kind of thing has been going on well in advance of this decision.

We demolished a large low income project, re-established the original streets and designed a new neighborhood that is in context with the adjacent Lower Garden District.  Go to www.rivergardenneworleans.com to see.  

All this was done in concert with Hope VI and HANO.  A small percentage is dedicated to low income tenants and the rest is for market value tenants.  My company is the operating entity.

Do I agree with this Supreme Court decision?  Hell no!
But like I said, this has been going on well before this light was focused upon this issue.

Steve G
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 26th, 2005, 12:37pm

on 06/26/05 at 11:52:33, stevegeebe wrote:
We demolished a large low income project, re-established the original streets and designed a new neighborhood that is in context with the adjacent Lower Garden District.  Go to www.rivergardenneworleans.com to see.  

All this was done in concert with Hope VI and HANO.  A small percentage is dedicated to low income tenants and the rest is for market value tenants.


Even so-called revitalization projects being proposed by private developers were shut down in PA due to legal challenges to eminent domain by owners of private property.

Others went through after the legal challenges forced developers to negotiate in good faith with existing private property owners.

This ruling eliminates any leverage owners of private property have.

If an owner doen't want to sell his 200 acre family farm to a developer that has surrounded it with Million dollar homes - they're now screwed.

All the developer needs to do is pay some local officials enough (afterall he's probably already compensating them for his current development) for them to impose eminent domain.  After all what owner of a million dollar home wants a farm out the back door - even if the farm was built there first, this'll improve the neighborhood and community's tax base.  

No negotiations, a private developer gets the land cheap and gives some of the x-tra profits back to local government officials.

I repeat, this is significantly different and is truely communistic.  The individual right to own property is gone.

Tom          

Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Charlie on Jun 26th, 2005, 1:56pm
I never said to lie down for it. This thing is new in that this time they are really trying to piss us off. Nice job! It appears that eminent domain has little if any restrictions now. Railroads were one thing but now these creeps could add a  KFC next to the unnecsssary fire station branch that now occupies what used to be a nice park. Bastards. http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/soapbox.gif

If you contact one of your slippery legislators, do it with hard mail. They look at a few emails and delete the rest. They have to open envelopes because they may contain cash.....whaddya know?  Mine usually send a letter back too.

Charlie
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by notseinfeld on Jun 26th, 2005, 2:59pm
I shudder to imagine the Ruby Ridge reactions this will elicit from property owners. For some people their entire savings and sentimentality may be holed up in their home.

Sucks for the people that are ordered to physically move them out I guess.

I don't have the time (sadly) to research the option of removing a sitting Justice from the stand but does anyone know off-hand how this can be done? A 2/3 majority in house?

This would be a worthwhile goal.
Oh, and a reversal of the ruling like Prohibition!
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by maffumatt on Jun 26th, 2005, 3:12pm
This sets a bad precident, when the local goverment can take  lower tax revenue property or God forbid Tax Exempt property (churches) and give their Idea of fair compensation for it, then turn around and give it to a Private individual for a dollar.

It isn't the constitution that needs to be changed, its the judges that need to be changed. It is time to get rid of the judges that legislate from the bench. It is not their job to change the constitution or the laws it is their job to FOLLOW THE LETTER OF THE LAW, not how they think it should be.
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Jonny on Jun 26th, 2005, 3:30pm

on 06/26/05 at 15:12:47, maffumatt wrote:
It isn't the constitution that needs to be changed, its the judges that need to be changed. It is time to get rid of the judges that legislate from the bench. It is not their job to change the constitution or the laws it is their job to FOLLOW THE LETTER OF THE LAW, not how they think it should be.



[smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif]
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by stevegeebe on Jun 26th, 2005, 5:15pm
Charlie, and others, I did not mean to imply that we ignore the basic consequences of this poor decision.

I agree that we should contact our legislators and I particularly like the hand written version for its cunning.  It is a shame that these tactics need to be considered.  But these methods can easily not be seen and simply ignored.  That's what they do up there.

If you look at the plan view of the Supreme Court Building or have visited it during one of your trips to Washington, it will come quite apparent to you that these folks are apart from you and I (as well as the other two components of our government). At least that's the way it was intended.

Something extraordinary needs to be considered at this time while this issue is still hot. I'm not advocating anything to do with violence so just don't go there.  

A million citizens surrounding the fortress that I've referenced above would make a serious statement and it would happen quickly and be of maximum effect.

Tea anyone?

Steve G
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 26th, 2005, 9:09pm
Like I said the incident in Aruba gets more coverage.  I think the Justices are getting what they expected ignorance and apathy.  I don't think the issue is nearly as hot as it should be because the media is not covering it indepth.  

Already submitted a letter to the local paper and will have to see what feedback I receive.  I'll rally some folks from there to at least write some letters and make some calls.    

Coordinating a million citizen march on the Supreme Court would clearly make a strong statement.  I've contacted the Institute for Justice before, I hear they are involved, maybe they know of something being pulled together.  I'll call them tomorrow.    

Flooding U.S. and State Reps. and Sen. with calls and letters would also make a statement and get things moving from the other direction.  I'm getting everyone I know to write and/or call - and my letter should get me some more folks to work with.  

Tom    
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Charlie on Jun 26th, 2005, 11:44pm
There's an idea...let the Capitol and Metropolitcan Police deal with a million rabid taxpayers. They'd need new batteries for their scanners.  :o

Now here is something for Congress. It would be refreshing to see debates on this rather than waste time and millions of our dollars on shit like the Schivo silliness.

I'm not confident though. Pfizer Drugs is supposed to donate 300 million or so to New London, Connecticut  for their little office buildings and river walk, project. I wonder how much they'd contribute to keep it from coming to the floor.

Follow the money again?

Charlie
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by burnt-toast on Jun 27th, 2005, 1:40am
Justice O'Connor's dessenting opinion.


Quote:
[/quote]
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who has been a key swing vote on many cases before the court, issued a stinging dissent. She argued that cities should not have unlimited authority to uproot families, even if they are provided compensation, simply to accommodate wealthy developers.

The lower courts had been divided on the issue, with many allowing a taking only if it eliminates blight.

"Any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party, but the fallout from this decision will not be random," O'Connor wrote. "The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms."
[quote]


She was joined in dessenting by Justices Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas.

What didn't Ginsberg, Breyer, Scouter, Stevens and Kennedy see - Or maybe the better question is what did they see?  I guess the lower courts won't be divided on this issue any more.

I say we march!

Tom
Title: Re: Unbelieveable!
Post by Frank_W on Jun 27th, 2005, 8:10am
Sitting at home in the rocker, smiling a dark, secret smile, and cleaning and oiling the guns...


Clusterheadaches.com Message Board » Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!
YaBB © 2000-2003. All Rights Reserved.