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Title: How do you feel about this? Post by Sean_C on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:51am PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (March 20) - The bitter feud over Terri Schiavo's fate has made its way to Congress, an answer to pleas from the brain-damaged woman's parents to have her feeding tube reinserted on her third day without food or water. Congressional leaders from both parties hoped an agreement reached on a bill would allow the tube to be restored while federal courts review her case. The House and Senate were expected to take up the legislation by Sunday or early Monday. If passed, President Bush planned to sign it. ''Everyone recognizes that time is important here. This is about defending life,'' White House press secretary Scott McClellan said in Texas, where the president planned an early return to Washington to be able to sign the bill as soon as possible. The development was the latest in a contentious right-to-die battle between Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, and her husband, Michael Schiavo, over whether she should be permitted to die or kept alive by the feeding tube. Passage of the measure would require the presence of only a handful of lawmakers. Opposition waned after House leaders agreed to give up broader legislation and accept a narrowly crafted bill that applied only to Schiavo's case. The Senate convened briefly Saturday evening to give formal permission for the House to meet Sunday, when it otherwise would be adjourned for spring recess. Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Friday on a Florida judge's order. As supporters maintained a vigil outside her hospice, Schiavo's mother pleaded for the 41-year-old woman's life. ''We laugh together, we cry together, we smile together, we talk together,'' Mary Schindler told reporters Saturday. ''Please, please, please save my little girl.'' Schiavo could linger for one or two weeks if the tube is not reinserted - as has happened twice before. Doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Her husband has insisted she never wanted to live in such a condition. Earlier Saturday, Michael Schiavo criticized House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, who helped broker the congressional compromise. ''He's sitting up there saying that Terri wants to live. How does he know? Has he ever met her? No. He hasn't met me,'' Schiavo said on NBC's ''Today'' show. Hamden Baskin III, one of his lawyers, also told CNN that Congress's move was an ''abomination'' that tried to overrule years of court decisions. But Bob Schindler praised Saturday's deal after talking with supporters. ''We're elated primarily that they put politics to one side and they're concentrating on the issue of saving Terri's life,'' he said. The bill would effectively take Schiavo's fate out of Florida state courts, and allow Schiavo's parents to take their case to a federal judge. DeLay, R-Texas, said that would likely mean restoration of the feeding tube ''for as long as this appeal endures.'' Rep. Robert Wexler, D-Fla., issued a statement late Saturday saying he will make an objection that would stop the vote Sunday. Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore., said he was trying to gather enough votes to defeat the bill Monday. ''This bill would have the federal government intrude into the most private, personal and painful family decision,'' Blumenauer said. Meanwhile, emotions swelled as lawmakers took on the matter. Four people, including right wing leader James Gordon ''Bo'' Gritz, were arrested Saturday on trespassing charges when they attempted to bring Schiavo bread and water. A spokesman for Schiavo's parents, Paul O'Donnell, later told reporters that they do not want supporters to engage in civil disobedience on their daughter's behalf. ''The family is asking that the protests remain peaceful,'' said O'Donnell, a Roman Catholic Franciscan monk. A small group of supporters was congregated outside the hospice. New protest signs were put up Sunday saying ''Save Terri Schiavo From State-Sponsored Murder!'' and ''Free Terri, jail the rest.'' Guabe Garcia Jones, an attorney from Washington, said he's been on a hunger strike since the tube was pulled Friday, only drinking water for the roughly two days he has spent in a tent outside the hospice. Early Sunday, less than a dozen supporters were still congregated outside the hospice. Some gathered in a circle of lawn chairs around a single candle, while others took to sleeping bags. Some people have camped out for days, like Terry Butts, a medical assistant and mother of two teenagers. ''I've worked in the nursing field over 20 years, and never seen a tube come out without a living will,'' she said. ''It's not supposed to happen.'' Terri Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly because of a chemical imbalance. She can breathe on her own, but has relied on the feeding tube to keep her alive. In 2001, Schiavo went without food and water for two days before a judge ordered the tube reinserted. When the tube was removed in October 2003, Gov. Jeb Bush pushed through ''Terri's Law,'' and six days later the tube was reinserted. The Florida Supreme Court ruled in September 2004 that Bush had overstepped his authority, declaring the law unconstitutional. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by vig on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:54am I thought it was a despicable showing of politics... "We should investigate every avenue before we take the life of a living human being," said House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a Texas Republican. unless they happen to be muslim... |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by E-Double on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:58am on 03/20/05 at 08:54:48, vig wrote:
I couldn't agree more!!! I tend to stay out of political/religious threads and will continue to do so, however, if/when my time comes....... Leave me alone and let nature run it's course. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Bethany1 on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:01am on 03/20/05 at 08:54:48, vig wrote:
Right on Paul. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sean_C on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:12am on 03/20/05 at 08:58:29, E-Double wrote:
Thats the way I feel about "myself" too, and my family knows it because we've talked about it. Have you talked to your family about this subject? If not what would your family do god forbid something accidently happened? |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by E-Double on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:17am Maybe it's because I'm relatively young (31) that certain things are not discussed further/deeper than philosophy regarding such issue. I guess now that I am married (tomorrow 4 months WOW) and we talk about starting a family in the near future that this is something that should be truly discussed. Either way.....I'd want the government out of my family's decision. Damn it Sean! You dragged me into the thread [smiley=laugh.gif] editied for speeeeeling |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:17am How I feel about this is that we are going to the JAG office and updating our wills and living wills. Cat |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by nani on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:44am Yes...a Living Will....put your wishes in writing. I shudder to think that my husband would have to go through all of this just trying to honor my wishes. Republicans say they want less government?... :-/ |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:56am on 03/20/05 at 09:44:47, nani wrote:
Do you people really think there is a significant difference between the two parties? Barnum was right... ::) Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by floridian on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:59am on 03/20/05 at 09:56:03, Hirvimaki wrote:
Yes, in many respects, I think there are significant differences. One is for freedom in boardroom, the other for freedom in the bedroom (and doctors office/hospital). Neither perfectly agrees with my philosophy of freedom and responsibility, but you can expect very different policies from a Repub or Demo government. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Bethany1 on Mar 20th, 2005, 9:59am Yes WE PEOPLE do. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Redd715 on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:02am This is a subject very close to my heart and life. I have DPOA over my mother, and many years ago she and I sat down and talked about shat she would and wouldn't want done as far as measures go. If it were up to other members of my family, Mom would not be a DNR staus resident at the nursing home right now. There would be no question of ever removing a feeding tube, as it would never be placed to begin with. I think that says it all. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sean_C on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:16am If any of you do get the chance to discuss this openly with your family you might be surprised at some of your famlies responses like I was. Not everybody's choice is the same as yours. My father who I thought would be like "yank that plug" insisted he stay on life support. Now if something happened to him I would have thought the opposite. So we joke around and if I ever need anything he always says "Seanboy, you were gonna pull the plug remember" [smiley=laugh.gif] Then I always have to reply "I still might" [smiley=laugh.gif] Mom, who I thought for sure would want to live no matter what, said to yank it. Shocked, I asked why and she said when its over its over, let me go, I'll see you on the other side :-[. These are real disicions guys, we all might face them. So I definately agree on the living will, or at least a family discussion if you can. Love to all Sean......................... Sorry if this is a touchy subject, but it becomes more touchy for your loved ones later. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:21am So if you are a Democrat, the declines in our society are the fault of the Republicans? And if you are Republican, the declines are the fault of the Democrats? Between 1976 and 1980 the Democrats controlled the White House, the Senate and the House of Representatives. From 1980 to 1986 the Republicans controlled the White House and the Senate, while the Democrats controlled the House of Representatives. Between 1986 and 1992 the Republicans controlled the White House while the Democrats controlled the Senate and the House of Representatives. From 1992 to 1994, the Democrats controlled the White House, the Senate and the House of representatives. During this whole time both parties have also controlled the state and local governments across the country. For a bill to be passed in Washington, it has to be passed through the White House, the Senate and the House of Representatives. This means that both parties are responsible for all those things you dislike about about this country. Yeah, I see the difference. Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by pattik on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:26am on 03/20/05 at 08:54:48, vig wrote:
Thanks, Vig. I couldn't have expressed it any better. These bottom-dweller politicians are really giving America a black eye around the world. It's sickening and embarassing. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by nani on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:30am Hirvi...politicians are all the same. My reference to Republicans here relate to this case. Starting with Jeb Bush, it has only been Republicans who have interfered with this woman's issues. What bothers me most, is that it is politically motivated, with little concern for the actual outcome for her or her husband. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Bethany1 on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:32am on 03/20/05 at 10:30:01, nani wrote:
[smiley=thumb.gif] Your right nan |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Jonny on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:36am If your able to talk when you get to the hospital you can give your own DNR order and they will honor it (at least in this state they will) My old man went to the ER having a heart attack, gave the DNR and was dead two hours later, I nearly killed the Doc for letting him die :'( |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sean_C on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:44am That sucks jonny, I'm wicked sorry bro :( |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Bethany1 on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:45am on 03/20/05 at 10:36:59, Jonny wrote:
:'( :'( :'( :-* :-* :-* Im sorry Jonny. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Jonny on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:54am on 03/20/05 at 10:44:24, Sean_C wrote:
Its what he wanted, he was in the first stages of Alzheimers and he knew it. No way was my old man going to become a babbling idiot, he saw an out and took it. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by nani on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:54am on 03/20/05 at 10:36:59, Jonny wrote:
I'm so sorry, bro... :'( :'( :'( [smiley=hug.gif] |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by floridian on Mar 20th, 2005, 10:54am on 03/20/05 at 10:21:03, Hirvimaki wrote:
This thread was opened by asking what we think about the Schiavo case. There is a clear difference between the Democratic and Republican camps on this issue. The Dems generally feel that there are policies in place to decide these things. They feel that when someone gets married, a spouse has the power of attorney, not the parents. The Repubs do not like the existing laws. They have appealled the matters to the courts (all the way to the supreme court) and were unable to find an activist judge to overturn the law. So they have rushed to re-write the laws in a way that will interfere with the privacy of tens of thousands of people, taking the matter away from the designated family decision makers if that decision is not in agreement with their so called 'pro-life' agenda. Yeah, that IS a big difference. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Redd715 on Mar 20th, 2005, 11:06am Quote:
Parents have no rights after a child reaches the legal age of majority. Not in any matter whatsoever. Why should a parents selfish desires ever override that of the child or the child's legal choice in partnership? Political or otherwise, any change in the law to grant a parent the right over over-rule the decision of an adult child or their legal partner would open flood gates to change other privacy laws. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by floridian on Mar 20th, 2005, 11:17am on 03/20/05 at 11:06:58, Redd715 wrote:
That is ordinarily true, but when an adult child is 'incompetent' then the parents may be able to exercise authority if they wish - if the parents die or become incapacitated, for example, the grandparents are generally seen to have a 'claim' to be custodians of the grandchildren. But if the parents are alive and competent, there are no grandparent rights (and when a person reaches adulthood, they are ordinarily their own person). We agree that giving the parents a veto over the spouse is going to open a new can of worms. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 20th, 2005, 6:20pm We've discussed such issues in nursing a lot. Whenever I'm admitted, I'm asked if I have a living will, and I do not. They then ask me if I want one. I used to laugh and say...nah not at this point. I'm young, save me. But now I have been thinking about the process of going about making one for some time now. Most every nurse I've ever spoken to has felt it is of very high importance. If you don't have a DNR or living will, then they can do whatever your 'next of kin' thinks is best...and that can be a fine line as to who 'next of kin' really is... All in all, during my first rotation, a woman was transferred to the floor I was a student on. She was 90 some years old. She was "brain dead" as they say. She had pressure ulcers everywhere. It looked like if you flicked her foot, it may have actually fallen off. She constantly had a lot of family in the room. They brought tons of her stuff and they told the nurse to use, "this shampoo for her hair, this lotion for this.." and so on. One day I was outside the room, and I heard the doctor speaking to the family in the room. He asked them to seriously consider if there may be any situation they could go through in their lives where they would not want to be kept alive under those conditions? I'm not sure if they ever let her go or what wound up happening. The case, like several others, was taken to the ethics committee of the hospital. I've discussed with my parents my own personal wishes. I don't ever want to be kept alive that way. I know sometimes when it is a close family member, it can be horribly difficult to let go...even though you know that's the advice you'd give to someone else in the same situation, but this is truly an act of kindness. It's just my opinion, but I feel it is cruel to keep someone alive in such a barbaric way. I think her husband is showing compassion in letting her go. It isn't like it is easy for him to let her go and just difficult for her parents! It's difficult for all of them. I just pray that once this is all over, she can find some peace. Carrie |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by medic1852 on Mar 20th, 2005, 6:33pm Personally a DNR is not worth the paper it is written on. If one family member contest it, JUST ONE! My personal opinion and mine only. Give a family member the same respect you would your pet if it were suffering and hurting. I believe in euthanasia (not sure on the spelling) no one deserves to die, but then again no one deserves to suffer either. [smiley=twocents.gif] Rodger |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by BobG on Mar 20th, 2005, 7:37pm It is a personal family matter, husband against parents. The way I feel about it doesn't count. But, since it was asked, my opinion, in this case, is the husband has the final say. And I think the politicians should stay out of the whole thing. It is none of their business. They should get on with the world shattering business of steroid use in baseball. "OH SHIT! There's steroid use by millionaire ballbrats. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Redd715 on Mar 20th, 2005, 7:46pm Quote:
What gets to me is the Mother stating that they(she and the daughter) laugh together and talk together and cry together....who the fuck is she trying to kid and what drugs is she on? Terri is a vegatable, the interactions are one sided and selfish as hell on that Mother's part to believe otherwise. I'm a parent as well, and I would never want my child kept alive like that. I don't think the ex would agree with me...he's always been a selfish ass. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Redd715 on Mar 20th, 2005, 7:49pm Quote:
Hence the reason for a designated DPOA. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Charlie on Mar 20th, 2005, 7:51pm I'm a Libertarian on this. Leave us alone. No Washington politicians....The Bush Brothers included, or Bible thumpers allowed on the news. A considerable majority feel the same. To digress somewhat: Add to the mix that Fox and CNN should be fined by the minute for showing anything over 10 minutes a day of this story as well as California murders and freak shows like Michael Jackson. I have a DNR too. Make sure the relative in charge has a copy. Charlie |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by BobG on Mar 20th, 2005, 7:54pm Terri's care is not being paid for by the parents. The money is coming from donations, fund raisers, etc. Mostly religious (in their minds anyway) types. I know, I know it's maybe not a nice thing to say but is there a profit being made, other than the nursing home and attorneys, by keeping her on the feeding tube? |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:11pm on 03/20/05 at 19:54:18, BobG wrote:
I remember back when this case was in the news the first time around, and a lot of the media and gossip was that her husband wanted to pull the feeding tube so that he got her money. But...I loved that as the story came out...any financial assets already got claimed by the nursing home. They took anything and everything because she's been kept alive for so long at this point. Now...I don't want to think that the parents are in it for the money either, but at least now the impression I'm getting is that the husband just truly is trying to let go of his wife so she can be in peace. That, in itself, makes me still have some hope in the world! |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Kris_in_SJ on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:20pm I can't think of a bigger nightmare than having my life (or death) put into the hands of George Bush and Congress. We should all have our wishes made clear in writing. If you don't have that done yet, it doesn't matter if you're 20 or 90, someone will fight about it if you don't. So do it! Kris |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by BobG on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:25pm Quote:
I agree. He could have just divorced her and walked away 15 years ago. Until I see better evidence otherwise I have to think he truly loves her and wants her to be free. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:30pm Hokay. Why do you'se guys even give a fuck? What does this have to do with CH? The minute one spouse can't legally nail the other spouse, and they're still in the so called state of Wedded Bliss..... Cash in the chips. RJ |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by forgetfulnot on Mar 20th, 2005, 11:19pm A little off topic but who pays the bills to keep this poor vegitable alive? Lee |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Charlie on Mar 20th, 2005, 11:48pm These busybodies in Washington are PITA. You know, a real conservative is supposed to leave things alone and not get in our way. These guys don't resemble conservatives. Bill Maher is right that the GOP are supposed to exist as mean old men who keep track of money rather than get under our skin at every turn. For once I really do miss the good old days. Charlie |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Mr. Happy on Mar 20th, 2005, 11:49pm on 03/20/05 at 23:19:32, forgetfulnot wrote:
Yeah. Sort of redefines share cropping. Shit. RJ |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Gator on Mar 21st, 2005, 1:10am I am definitely appalled by the thought of the courts, congress or the president trying to usurp the decision making ability of the only people whose opinions matter in this. The husband and/or the wife should have final say. Period. No doctor, no preacher, no lawyer - nobody esle should be allowed to interfere with this responsibility. My congressmen have already been appraised of my opinion on this matter. The husband says it was his wife's wishes not to be kept alive like this. He could have walked away 15 years ago. He could have cut his losses and divorced the woman and left her to the selfish whims of her parents. There is no money for him to fight for. What is his motivation, except maybe a promise he made to his wife? This whole incident is dispicable. It pisses me off to think that someone could trump my wishes when I am in no position to defend myself. My wife and I both have wills and living wills and have discussed our wishes with our families, but from what I understand, even that isn't always enough. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Svenn on Mar 21st, 2005, 1:41am This really pisses me off >:( >:( >:( Why do politichians trying to score points on a case like this. I believe that Terri and her husband know exactly what the other wants and last wishes. She has no life now beside being a vegetable. Bente does know my last wishes in case i can`t comunicate,and so do i about her. Gator said "The husband says it was his wife's wishes not to be kept alive like this. He could have walked away 15 years ago. He could have cut his losses and divorced the woman and left her to the selfish whims of her parents. There is no money for him to fight for. What is his motivation, except maybe a promise he made to his wife? This whole incident is dispicable. " I say give Terri Schiavo the rellief she and her husband wants Svenn |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by BobG on Mar 21st, 2005, 2:20am on 03/21/05 at 01:41:00, Svenn wrote:
Very good question. I wonder why the US Congress didn't call for an emergancy weekend get-together to do something about a rapist-murderer in Florida. How about a law that requires convicted sex offenders never walk free in society for the rest of their lives? I guess denying the rights of a husband to set his wife free is more important than saving the life of a beautiful little girl. I'm a little ashamed to be an American right now. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by sandie99 on Mar 21st, 2005, 5:24am I think that each individual should be able to decide on their own what happends to them! If she wants to die, she should be let to die. Having said that, I hope that I don't ever have to make that kind of decition what comes to my mum or my closeones. I personally want to be kept alive as long as humanly possible, no matter how articially that would take place. And I have repeatedly told that to my mum, just in case. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by LeLimey on Mar 21st, 2005, 6:27am The husband has the strength to do what he knows his wife wants. I admire him greatly for that. I don't know if I could find it in myself and that is being brutally honest. I know I couldn't pull the plug on my kids. I know its what my husband would want and I would do it for him even if it would kill me. I can understand the parents reaction, I think any parent can BUT... the day my kids get married is the day they choose to make their decisions with their partner. Not me. This is a really hard decision for anyone to make. I agree with everyone else who says this is a "family" decision and should not ever ever ever be made by politicians. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by floridian on Mar 21st, 2005, 8:48am Quote:
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 21st, 2005, 8:49am As far as I'm concerned, congress and the president just said that the laws of the states are inadequate and unjust - that's why they need to be reviewed by a federal judge. Soooooo open the flood gates, if one states laws are no good and need federal intervention, so do all states. Guess all the state judges can pack up and go home and apply for all the newly required federal judge slots. Up until now, this case was about the two sides. It went beyond that the second congress got involved. Now they are taking the constitution and doing as they wish. There had better be a case to the supreme court ASAP to determine if this action is constitutional. My husband took an oath to defend the CONSTITUTION of the United States of America, against all enemies, foreign or DOMESTIC. This strikes me as an action that requires defense.... Cat |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Tiannia on Mar 21st, 2005, 10:46am on 03/20/05 at 09:12:11, Sean_C wrote:
Ok on this subject. How many of you have a "Living Will"? This is a simple form that you can pull off the internet that states that if you are hospitalized that you either do or do not wish to by out on life support. While my husband and family knows that this is my wish, I do not want them put through the heartache of having to sign that paper. Or to have that choice taken away from them by something like this. So I have it and it goes with me, a copy is in my medical file at my doctors office and when I entered the hospital to give birth to my son I also had a copy put into my file there. This make sure that MY choice is what is considered and that Shaun would not have to fight with anyone about what I wanted because it is there in black and white notorized and legal. I feel deeply for this husband. The parents, as far as I am concered, have no say in this matter. Blessed Be Terri. May you and yours be guided and comforted in this time of turmoil. -Tiannia |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by floridian on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:01am A coma is considered a short term, possibly reversible condition. Fifteen years in a permanent vegetative state is very different. A person in a coma is unconcious, but has the potential of recovering. In a pvs, the brain damage is clear and irreversible. on 03/21/05 at 10:27:52, guesst wrote:
The rumors to discredit the poor husband keep growing. [smiley=huh.gif] :'( He has been accused of wanting to kill her for the money, of abusing her in the nursing home, of stopping 'rehabilitiation' when she supposedly was improving - all with no proof what so ever. Now he is 'responsible for her condition' - although the doctors and courts believe it was a heart attack. Where has it been documented, or are you just repeating fabrications and slander?? Maybe it was these tin-foil hat analysts: http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/terri_schindler_schiavo_cardiac_arrest_lie.html http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/scientology_and_terri_schindler_schiavo_death_connection.html |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by clarence on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:07am on 03/21/05 at 08:48:43, floridian wrote:
This makes me sad. Speaking as a Christian, I wish the Christian community could look past the surface of the issue and see when we are being used. I want to shout, "they don't care about your values...they care about how your values make them look." And, the issue is so much deeper than pro-life. damn the whole thing makes me sad. Casey |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:15am on 03/21/05 at 10:27:52, guesst wrote:
Thomas there is a HUGE difference between GOING to be in and IS in when it comes to a vegatative state. A 9 month old cannot make the determination of choice, an adult can and should make every attempt at life that is medically possible - be that your parents for a child, or your spouse for an adult. Forgive my lack of compassion, however, I choose not to live in a vegetative state. I want everything done to save my life, but if that results in me having no mental capacity, then the person I am will cease to exist for myself and my family. This case is no longer about Terri Shaivo in my opinion. We do not have the right or the scope of information to make any judgement or decision for these people, that's what the courts were supposed to do. How I feel and how you feel about Terri, her husband and her parents is irrelevant, we don't get to make those choices for others. What I cannot accept is that congress has decided to intervene in a state court judicial process when due process has been given and proven, and say that state court doesn't know what they are talking about, give it to the feds. That has long reaching and frightening implications for every person in this country. The constitution is written to give the states independant judicial powers and process - taking that away is unconstitutional in my opinion. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:34am Now I think you are crossing the line. Please show me in this thread where I said she should be left to die by starvation? I'm sorry you would think that I would consider another human being as a piece of meat. I have expressed what I would want done, not what should be done for anyone else outside of my own life. My concern is for the process that has occurred that is in contradiction to the constitution. You don't have to agree with anyone else about anything if you don't want to, but don't accuse me of lack of compassion because I disagree with a constitutional process being thrown out the window. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sean_C on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:41am on 03/21/05 at 10:27:52, guesst wrote:
Thomas as a parent I would do anything for my kids, I would give my child my sight, my organs.............anything they would need, infact I would give my life in a minute to save theres as would you. And I agree totally with your compassion regarding her demise. I do not think they should starve her to death, that doesn't seem fair to her. What usually happens to most people in this state is they die from other causes like pneamonia(sp) or something viral. It seems though she is still very strong bodied and this has not happened. Either way there are no winners here and its sad that its come to this. I just would like to clarify that my own feeling regarding my own discisions have no bearing on someonelses right to choose and I would respect ones decision either way. I just wouldn't want the government deciding for me, as I believe its personal and I think it should stay that way. JMHO ;) Sean........................ |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sean_C on Mar 21st, 2005, 11:57am Just for the record I don't think Cat said anything wrong, if anything she's a compassionate person at heart and something was misinterpreted or something. No-one's executing anything or anyone here. We're just having a family discussion thats all ;;D Now pass me a beer its noon time and its ok to do that ;;D Love to all Sean...................... ;;D |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sean_C on Mar 21st, 2005, 12:01pm I didn't think you said anything wrong either, .........................."does that make me a liberal?" LOL..............shit ;;D Sean........................ |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by broomhilda on Mar 21st, 2005, 12:06pm Starving a person to death, the way I see it is in NO comparision to a DNR order :( According to some folks here the over 30 percent of my caseload of children should have their tubes removed and starved to death... >:( At what point do you deem a person a vegatable, think about it.... |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 21st, 2005, 12:15pm What a sad situation this is. As a parent, I can not imagine being in this position. No, I wouldn't let them starve my daughter either, regardless of what her spouse says they had previously agreed. You never stop being a parent, even when your children are grown and I, personally, would have a hard time if my daughter's spouse made such a decision (regardless of her mental capacity). I used to work with handicapped children, including Down's kids, CP kids, Autistic kids, brain injured kids. These people definitely DO feel, react and feel pain. The hair on the back of my neck stands up when I hear the term "vegetable". >:( Starvation is a very painful way to die. Inhumane, if you ask me. I'm glad that option is not an option now. My two cents on the issue anyway. Thomas, you've brought up some great points here. You too, Clarence. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by nani on Mar 21st, 2005, 12:29pm Wasn't the purpose of this thread to see what we thought about the government interfering in a person's wishes? When I signed the release to have brain surgery, all the possible outcomes were listed. I made it VERY clear to my husband that I didn't want to be kept alive by any artificial means, including a feeding tube. The question here is should her choice be honored without the government's interfering? Wanting my and others wishes honored if the time comes does NOT make me a liberal anti-Christian. Christians who allow themselves and their beliefs used by a political party make me wonder, though... And you know, I used to work with DD adults. Many so crippled by Cerebal Palsy and other developmental issues that they were basically as needy as infants. I don't know what their mental capacity was because they were not verbal, but I can tell you I often saw a look of hopelessness and despair in their eyes. As though they were fully aware of their limitations. I, for one, would not want to live like that. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 21st, 2005, 12:48pm on 03/21/05 at 12:33:13, guesst wrote:
psst, Thomas - it didn't go off topic until just now. One of the few threads around here lately that actually evolved into a very intelligent conversation. Oops, sorry - guess I just took it off topic a little further, huh? I'll just be shutting my non-judgemental Christian mouth now and going back under my rock. :-X |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Donna_D. on Mar 21st, 2005, 1:10pm I've been reading and watching this thread very closely, but have not responded until now as it hits very close to home at this moment in time. My father is in ICU where he has been for the last three weeks. He is currently on a respirator due to the fact that something in his brain is malfunctioning and causing his respirations to go up to 75+ a minute. They are not sure why or what is causing this. My father has a DNR. My father has made it perfectly clear that he chooses not to live by "artificial means" In the last 2 1/2 years he has had five bypass heart surgery, two below the knee amputations, two finger amputations, two strokes, his kidneys have failed and he has progressed from peritoneal dialysis to hemodialisys. He can barely achieve let alone maintain conciousness for more than a few words at a time. In previous conversations with my father he repeatedly reinterated to all of us he does not want to live that way. I was ready to honor his wishes until the other day. He whispered to me he is not ready to give up. Now I have doubts. There are some very difficult decisions we have to make in life sometimes. I am sure that Terry's family has agonized back and forth with each of their respective decisions. How many times can you change YOUR mind in 15 years? I think what this boils down to is this: 1) The government has no right to play God. I believe the seperation of church and state statues covers this point. 2) When Terry married her husband it was for better, for worse, in sickness and in health. In a marriage ceremony a father "gives away" the bride, indicating that the man is now responsible for this woman. Terri's husband should have the final say-so. Period. 3) If there were even a slim chance of recovery I think one of the doctors would have loudly proclaimed this fact. All I keep hearing is PVS. I think if there were a chance, her husband would wait for it. After all it HAS been 15 years. To every thing turn, turn, turn DD |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 21st, 2005, 1:13pm on 03/21/05 at 12:29:04, nani wrote:
Yes. But you did try to make it a PARTY issue. And as long as you fight on two sides like that, all the government has to do is grab more power while you bicker. As to the government, any government, interfering in a person's wishes? Government has no place in our personal lives and it should stay out of such decisions. But understand, I believe that government should stay out of almost everything. I do think there is a calousness and unfeeling all too prevelant in this country, in our world. And this thread makes me think of something I once heard: The greatness of a society is judged, in part, by how well it treats those least able to help themselves - children, the poor, the disabled and the elderly. I'd say most of us suck pretty badly judged on those terms. Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 21st, 2005, 1:13pm the specifics of the Terry Sciavo situation are, no doubt, simply horrible. the issues that exist in this family are contributing to a sad state of affairs. what I can't accept is the political opportunism that is taking place here. Delay's news conference yesterday was a charade. As have been the many voices from the right who are attempting to seize upon the horrible confluence of factors that make up this one family's situation, to establish forays into each of our own rights to choose how we will die, or what we choose to live with. the idea that some slippery slope exists, or that if this is allowed to happen, we can never get our souls back is crap. yet these same men who claim every life is so precious also are the first to make sure that states rights for the death penalty are held high. look I even voted for this administration. but this all has the smell of something nearly bad enough to make me want to heave. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 21st, 2005, 1:34pm I don't believe that Thomas and I have any hard feelings. I have tried hard to keep my statements in the realm of the political/legal issues that will be long reaching by congress involving themselves in this fight. The only good thing that might come from that, is the minute possibility of definitive federal living will legislation. This entire issue strikes at the heart of many for many different reasons. I've faced the decision of pulling the plug twice. There is no point relating the situations as they occurred in Canada and it's a whole different scenario there. Death by starvation is inhumane in my opinion. If my child were in any medical crisis I would insist every available means be used for as long as it took. A child cannot make a decision of this magnitude. After age 21, then I will respect their wishes even if it goes against everything I want and believe for myself. Every case is different and individual. There are no hard and fast rules for this - it all comes down to the wishes of a competent adult. That is why, I have made my wishes clear to my family while I have full mental capacity, to include what I deem as unacceptable diminished mental capacity. No one has to guess I've laid it all out. There is no right and wrong in a persons choice on this issue. We choose based on our beliefs and our ideals and values. I cannot know what Terry Schaivo's wishes were/are - they are not written down. I do not presume to have the ability to pass any judgement for this as I have never met any of the people involved. It is a parent's job to do everything in their power to sustain the life of their child in my opinion. The point at which I hand over that power is the point that child is an adult and expresses their wishes themselves. In my case, not before 21, and then it stays status quo until they have clearly expressed what their wishes are. Each parent will have their own ideas on what that age is. This is my position on my children and my life only, it should not ever be enforced on anyone other than myself. I do not wish to change anyone's opinion on whether Terry Schaivo should or should not be kept on a feeding tube, I can't even tell you definitively what my own opinion on that is. I don't even wish to change anyone's opinion on the matter of congress intervening - I am stating what my opinion is, nothing more, nothing less. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by ghost62 on Mar 21st, 2005, 1:38pm Well I figured I'd wait to see where this was going. Well it appears it went to politics. How appropriate is that. Ok lets examine it .... Poli (latin for many, Tics little blood sucking creatures.). well that I guess makes it appropriate. All politics aside I dont know and would be foolish to think I know what she wants. I only know it is hard no matter which part of the family wins. noone wins they all lose. :-[ |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 21st, 2005, 1:49pm "Poli (latin for many, Tics little blood sucking creatures.)." If you want to be that irrelevant then: PO = River in Italy LI = Shorthand for Lithium TI= The seventh tone of the diatonic scale CS = Abbreviation for "Crime Scene" What is that supposed to mean? It's ALL politics. Denial of this fact is the type of thing that can lead to the type of tyranny that people who least like to believe "It's all politics" would least like to experience. The only reason that this a story outside of the families involved is that IT IS POLITICS. Tom Delay does care about this girl any more or any less than Harry Reid does. In fact, Reid, as a doctor, may actually have some expertise in understanding the situation. It's a pity and shame, but its all politics. all of the schiavo family are simply the "pawns dujour" in the debate. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by TxBasslady on Mar 21st, 2005, 2:19pm I know that Sean was asking about the political intervention of this situation.....and since I do not enter into those type situations, I would still like to render my feelings.......my feelings as a parent. I have 3 sons.....grown, married, and all with children. God gave me these children....and only God can take them from me.... Devine intervention.....not politicians. I want to say that I'm not certain any of us can look at this and make a decision as to what we would do if it were our child instead of Terri. How can we??? The death of our child.....I cannot even imagine anything more devastating. I am certain I could not survive the loss. We can all run out and get our living wills drawn up. But medic is right.....it only takes 1....only 1 to contest that living will, and then the courts are involved. My Mom and Dad had living wills.....Dad knew we could contest it.....but he asked us...out of love...to respect their wishes. My Dad died suddenly....my Mom lived for 6 years after losing Dad. We never had to make a choice.....God made that decision for us. I hope that my death comes before the death of one of my children. My life would surely be over if I were to lose one of them. Thomas, I love you, sweetie! I am so happy that your parents made the right choice. You bring so much sunshine into my life. Jean |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by rickyshot on Mar 21st, 2005, 2:50pm I too feel that starvation is cruel and unusual punishment. And stating someone is a vegetable is humanism. Who the hell are we to decide who is viable enough to live. If IV's are the only thing keeping her alive (she is not on life support artificially) then she is strong indeed. A horrible quality of life IMO but life nevertheless. I have a living will requesting no artificial means of life support. But to pull an IV and starve to death nono. We arrest people who do animals that way and this is a human being who may be dying but the way we can aide her to the other side is with compassion not starvation (just murder IMO) . I too used to take care of horribly handicapped and children with deformities. What to do with them huh. This is Nazi mentality, very dangerous. I do think the politic invasion in this case is horrible. And BTW I have a son who is considered a real miracle, surviving a hole in his heart literally miracously healed without intervention, almost died from spinal menengitis a year later and was in a vegetative state and I was told to pray (that was his chances by the medical profession) and he survived without any deficit. When it comes to life mankind does not have the answers, it is still a mystery but of course it bugs our egos that we don't really know..... |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by ghost62 on Mar 21st, 2005, 2:57pm on 03/21/05 at 13:49:04, seasonalboomer wrote:
And for people who want governmental control over our lives it is all politics. People need to learn to make there own decision and learn to accept the reprocussions of their decisions. We do not need to have some one else telling us how to live. If we as citizens show enough impotence in our decision making abilities we can then have a socialistic society controling everything right down to when we have to piss. My opinion what it may be worth (not much) we as members of this human race, Need to rely less on governmental emposed thoughts and more on common sense. We need to make decisions not blindly follow what others say we need to do. By saying " "It's all politics" would least like to experience. The only reason that this a story outside of the families involved is that IT IS POLITICS. Tom Delay does care about this girl any more or any less than Harry Reid does. In fact, Reid, as a doctor, may actually have some expertise in understanding the situation. " Being a doctor doesnt give them more knowledge of what a person goes through in a vegitative state it only gives the more time around people in that condition. That would be like saying that a teacher is all knowledgable just because they are around learning/teaching every day, as we all know they are not. As far ap Tom Delay goes caring is nice but is it really his decision. NO! Im not trying to say all government is bad. but in this and other cases it has greatly overstepped its boundries. The courts have made a decision given the available information, and have made a decision on that. I agree the decision may not set well with my beliefs but I am not responsible for the decision at hand. However I do feel that if you do nothing and blindly let things go unchecked, the results can become equally devistating, but to change the laws or requirements just to fit your beliefs is wrong. That is a practice that should never be tolerated by any citizen of this country or any other country. In summation to what I said in my previous post, It is very relivant, I the fact the polititions should not be involved in this and are willing to suck the blood out of it for their own political gains. Thanks for hearing my rant, 1st time ive done that, and it felt good. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by floridian on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:07pm When my brother went into respiratory arrest, we were told that all higher brain function was irreversibly lost. He would not be able to enjoy watching tv, listening to music, would not recognize people or be able to form thoughts. His heart kept working. He could breath. The doctors did not tell us to pray. They said of all the thousands of cases that reached this degree of damage, none had ever recovered. We never described him as a "Piece of Meat" - the question was, how long to keep his organs alive, and for what purpose. The person was dead, just as I believe Terri Schiavo is. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by floridian on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:13pm on 03/21/05 at 15:06:09, guesst wrote:
Yes, the mother refuses to believe that her daughter is in a persistent vegatative state, in contradiction to the doctors and court. A person in PVS can sometimes open their eyes, make movements, and sounds. The medical consensus is that these movements are reflexes governed by the brain stem, and do not reflect thought or conciousness. Quote:
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by vig on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:16pm The trial court heard testimony from five experts: two selected by Michael, two selected by the Schindlers, and one independent expert selected by the trial court. The two experts selected by Michael and the independent expert agreed that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and that her actions were limited to mere reflexes. The two experts chosen by the Schindlers disagreed, but the trial court found their positions not credible. For instance, the trial court explained: At first blush, the video of Terry Schiavo appearing to smile and look lovingly at her mother seemed to represent cognition. This was also true for how she followed the Mickey Mouse balloon held by her father. The court has carefully viewed the videotapes as requested by counsel and does find that these actions were neither consistent nor reproducible. For instance, Terry Schiavo appeared to have the same look on her face when Dr. Cranford rubbed her neck. Dr. Greer testified she had a smile during his (non-videoed) examination. Also, Mr. Schindler tried several more times to have her eyes follow the Mickey Mouse balloon but without success. Also, she clearly does not consistently respond to her mother. The court finds that based on the credible evidence, cognitive function would manifest itself in a constant response to stimuli. The experts also disagreed about whether any treatment could improve Terri's condition. The two experts selected by the Schindlers each proposed a potential therapy method, but the trial court rejected both of them based on "the total absence of supporting case studies or medical literature." Affirming those decisions, the Second District explained that it, too, reviewed the videotapes of Terri in their entirety as well as Terri's brain scans. The appellate court explained that it not only affirmed the decision but that, were it to review the evidence and make its own decision, the court would reach the same result reached by the trial court. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by pattik on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:24pm on 03/21/05 at 12:06:25, broomhilda wrote:
There have been a lot of emotionally-charged words and phrases used in this thread, like starvation. I have been listening to the doctors envolved with this case, and they state that her cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid. They have also stated that people in a PVS do not experience pain. "Starvation" evokes all kinds of emotional response, and it would be useful to become more educated regarding the doctor's assessment of this condition. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by ghost62 on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:30pm on 03/21/05 at 15:24:25, pattik wrote:
That is very well put, sometimes emotion is not the way to judge, but there are alot of people who find it hard to seperate themselves from emotion. I wish the best for the whole family, but that can never happen someone has to lose. We need to put them all into our thoughts and prayers they all will need it. :'( |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 21st, 2005, 3:53pm on 03/21/05 at 15:30:59, ghost62 wrote:
I find that an ironic statement in a thread titled: How do you feel about this? "For that which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it. Every one thinks chiefly of his own, hardly at all of the common interest; and only when he is himself concerned as an individual. For besides other considerations, everybody is more inclined to neglect the duty which he expects another to fulfill; as in families many attendants are often less useful than a few. Each citizen will have a thousand sons who will not be his sons individually but anybody will be equally the son of anybody, and will therefore be neglected by all alike." -- From Aristotle's "Politics", Written c.a. 350 BC Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 21st, 2005, 4:30pm Thomas I see no reason that you would have to step back and be objective. I guess I prefer to see a discussion on how this makes people feel without it falling to the level of name calling. So far so good. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by ghost62 on Mar 21st, 2005, 4:54pm on 03/21/05 at 15:53:52, Hirvimaki wrote:
I never said not to feel I said " That is very well put, sometimes emotion is not the way to judge, but there are alot of people who find it hard to seperate themselves from emotion. I wish the best for the whole family, but that can never happen someone has to lose. We need to put them all into our thoughts and prayers they all will need it. " Try not to take things out of context. I know its easy to twist peoples words to fit your own use, but is it totally necessary. Once again I do feel great remorse for all of the family and pray for the best. I know god is with her and will welcome her into heaven when her time has come. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 21st, 2005, 5:05pm on 03/21/05 at 16:54:44, ghost62 wrote:
Huh? on 03/21/05 at 16:54:44, ghost62 wrote:
Er, ok... I stand corrected. You did not post that. [smiley=huh.gif] I'll just go back to reading this essay on evolutionary ethics...mad, evil genius that I am..! Hirvimaki-I-twist-peoples-words-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by ghost62 on Mar 21st, 2005, 5:32pm on 03/21/05 at 17:05:08, Hirvimaki wrote:
First of all I never said I didnt post the quote you used, I said you used it out of context, which you did by implying I said not to feel. Second I never called you " mad, evil genius " I was in fact responding to what pattik had posted. " There have been a lot of emotionally-charged words and phrases used in this thread, like starvation. I have been listening to the doctors envolved with this case, and they state that her cerebral cortex has been replaced by spinal fluid. They have also stated that people in a PVS do not experience pain. "Starvation" evokes all kinds of emotional response, and it would be useful to become more educated regarding the doctor's assessment of this condition." I was attempting to relay that I agreed with what was said. I would like to apoligize If I offended you, I did not mean to if I did. Sorry. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by ghost62 on Mar 21st, 2005, 5:35pm Also I feel that she should have the opportunity to live too. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by BlueMeanie on Mar 21st, 2005, 5:42pm I have not read this whole thread and haven't paid attention to the whole story, but my feeling is pull the plug. I see no reason to keep spending thousands of dollars a day for a brain dead person. That's what I would hope my family would do if it happened to me. That's all. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Tom K on Mar 21st, 2005, 5:44pm For anyone on here that thinks the Congress and President have intervened in this case and have over stepped their power, needs to re-read their Constitution... US Constitution American Government 9b. The Structure of the Federal Courts The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. -Article III, Section 1, The Constitution of the United States Notice that, according to the Constitution, Congress creates courts. By implication, Congress also has the power to reorganize and even dismantle the court system. This clause provides one of many examples of the checks and balances in the Constitution, but it also reveals the Founders' intent to grant greater powers to the legislative branch than to the judicial. It's pretty interesting how the sides have been drawn on this topic....Seems that the same people that always thought the sky was falling before the election have focused their attention on a new flavor of the day. Having worked in a skilled care nursing home, I have seen plenty of stroke patients with G-tubes, relearn to swallow and lead a "normal" life. It may not be our definition of normal, but it is their new normal. Yes, they may never be able to do the things they used to do, but they do live on. If this case was a little different, say...a child who's parents withheld food...the group crying to kill this woman, would be calling for the parents head. Do we know all the facts about this case? Probably not. We, on all sides are jumping to conclusions, just like the media want everyone to. When was the last time you saw a news story about nothing happening down the street from your house? Sheesh...when is everyone going to wake up and realize that killing innocent people is wrong. Maybe, finally, the pro-abortionalist, who for the most part are all for killing this woman, will be given the name they have earned...anti-life. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 21st, 2005, 5:49pm on 03/21/05 at 17:32:48, ghost62 wrote:
I did not use your words out of context - I merely used a quote (taken from the post right above mine, no less) because I did in fact find it an ironic statement in a thread titled: "How do you feel about this?" I most certaily did not twist your words to fit my own use. To what ends?? I found your statement ironic and merely pointed that out. No twisting, no out-of-context quoting. on 03/21/05 at 17:32:48, ghost62 wrote:
I know. I came up with that one myself! :) on 03/21/05 at 17:32:48, ghost62 wrote:
Thank you. But it would take something along the lines of a one-legged Mexican, three or four lemmings, six rubber gloves, a turkey baster and a hell of a lot of Cheez Whiz to offend me. No offence taken. No offence meant. Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by ghost62 on Mar 21st, 2005, 5:52pm Then in that case I took the quote out of context. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 21st, 2005, 6:15pm Let me start with the Bill of Rights, Amendment VII - In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twentyt dollars, the right of trial by a jury shall be preserved; and no fact tried by a jury shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States than according to the rules of the common law. Now, for the constitution, first, this case has been presented to the Supreme Court of Florida and they made a ruling. It was presented to the Supreme Court of the United States and they refused to hear the case. To carry on what you posted, (about FEDERAL courts), Article III, Judicial Department, Section 2 - Jurisdition: Clause 1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; (See Note 10)--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. No where in there do I see that the federal courts will take jurisdication over a dispute between citizens of the same state. I do believe that's why they are referring to this legislation as unprecedented. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 21st, 2005, 6:39pm A few more [smiley=twocents.gif]... I think the relevant question is not what decision should be made (we don't have all the facts, plain and simple), but who should get to make that decision. 1. Terry Shiavo herself. (I doubt anyone would argue that she should have first say.) 2. Her husband 3. Her family The dispute in question is that her husband isn't properly representing Terry's wishes, and that her family should have priority. The husband also sued for malpractice saying he would need to take care of her for 50 years, and is living/semi-engaged to another women with whom he's had kids, and they claim he would have divorced her if not for the accident, so the family doesn't feel he's qualified to make the decision as a surrogate. And he has changed his position several times. (All this occurred because of the State's laws regarding heresay testimony in the case of determining a persons dying wish.) The family also believes she's responsive enough to justify continuing her life and that she could be rehabilitated, and the family is willing to pay for life-support and treatment. Enter the legal wrangling which would take a flowchart to figure out. At one level you have the state legislature and the executive branch, the florida courts, the federal courts, and congress itself. The executive branch believes the family should make the choice, the florida courts believe the husband should make the choice. Conservatives gripe that the courts shouldn't have the power to overrule the executive branch like that, usual arguments about overstepping their bounds. After some legal wrangling Congress steps in for a one-time dispensation from God to keep this women alive, effectively handing the decision-making power over to the family, getting most everyone upset. So, who should be deciding? The family or the husband? The state courts, the state government, the federal courts, or the federal government? It is sad that a dispute between two groups of people has to find its way up to the highest courts and governmental bodies in our land, but that's more a statement of the power of media than anything else. And just to be fair and clear, she would not "starve", she would die of "Terminal Dehydration". Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by BikerBob on Mar 21st, 2005, 6:51pm I agree with Catlind's legal assessment that the Feds have no right to intervene. Here's more support for that assessment... From the US Constitution: Amendment X - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. What part of the US Constitution gives the Feds jurisdiction over this matter? Bob |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by clarence on Mar 21st, 2005, 8:55pm on 03/21/05 at 17:49:10, Hirvimaki wrote:
http://www.landmines.org.uk/images/Circular_Graphic/4.gif Quote:
http://homepage1.nifty.com/roroo-h/hamster/lemming3.jpg Quote:
http://www.medisave.co.uk/images/gl902.jpg http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Boardwalk/7271/homepage_apr03.jpg http://www.uvprocess.com/products/Safety/Handpro/Gloves/NpRUBBER/GLOVES%20%20%20I_primary_WebPic1.JPG Quote:
http://www.in-nyc.com/in-performance/images/jiveass2.jpg Quote:
http://www.kingofobsolete.ca/cheese%20whiz%20and%20ground%20beef%20june%2019%202004%20002.jpg How do you like that? Casey |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Donna_D. on Mar 21st, 2005, 10:57pm Casey, Brother I am IMPRESSED!! But slightly offended! [smiley=huh.gif] DD |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Charlie on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:05am Bush and his holier than thou crew cleverly use things like this to divert attention. It's a big world but we on this side of the Altantic aren't supposed to know it. Throughout history governments have behaved this way. They use fear and religion to keep the electorate off balance. It works every time. Charlie |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Gator on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:23am on 03/22/05 at 01:05:38, Charlie wrote:
It's not just a Bush/Republican thing. They just happen to be the party doing it at the moment. Regardless of who was doing it - it would be wrong in my book. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Svenn on Mar 22nd, 2005, 7:18am Semms that there is some federal judges over there that actually can think,even that the case itself is a tragedy:: Judge doesn't order Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted TAMPA, Florida (CNN) -- A federal judge on Tuesday refused to order the reinsertion of a feeding tube for Terri Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman who is the center of a national legal battle over her life. Attorneys for Schiavo's parents will file an appeal at the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia. Schiavo has been without food or water since Friday, when her feeding tube was removed by order of a state judge who ruled that her husband has the right to decide her fate. The ruling in Tampa by U.S. District Judge James Whittemore came after Congress and President Bush enacted legislation aimed at allowing federal courts to review Schiavo's case. On one side of the wrenching case is Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband. He insists that his wife would never want to continue to live in her current condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a "persistent vegetative state." People in a persistent vegetative state cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings. Terri Schiavo, now 41, collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage. Michael Schiavo said his wife suffered from bulimia that resulted in a potassium deficiency that triggered the heart failure Michael Schiavo is vowing to carry through with what he calls his wife's wish not to live in such a condition, saying, "I will stick by Terri." "When Terri's wishes are carried out, it will be her wish. She'll be at peace, she'll be with the Lord," Michael Schiavo said on Monday. "This is what Terri wants. She does not want to be in this condition. She does not want to exist in this condition, and I'm going to carry out what she wanted." But Terri Schiavo's parents point to the absence of a "living will," or written document, clearly spelling out her wishes. They argue that their daughter's due-process rights have been violated and that she, as a Roman Catholic, would not have wanted to die. They also contend that their daughter's condition could improve with treatment. Death could come within two weeks Doctors have said Terri Schiavo could live for one to two weeks without her feeding tube. Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, are facing an uphill battle. Repeated court rulings have held that Michael Schiavo is his wife's legal guardian and therefore has the right to make decisions regarding her care. But at a hearing Monday, Judge Whittemore grilled the Schindlers' attorney about the constitutionality of their case. Michael Schiavo was not at Monday's federal hearing, instead opting to remain at Terri Schiavo's bedside. He said it is going to be "hard" when she finally dies. "I've cried many tears so far, trust me," he said. "I made a promise to Terri. I'm going to stick by her side, and I'm going to do this for her. Terri is not a piece of property that you pass back and forth. She didn't say, 'Well, when I become sick, give me back to my parents.' I will stick by Terri." Michael Schiavo and his attorney, George Felos, said Terri made it clear years ago that she would not want to live in such a condition -- even though she never made a "living will." They said she once made the comment to her best friend after they saw an emotional movie in which one of the characters was in such a state. "She said, 'No tubes for me,'" Michael Schiavo said. Asked if he would feel bad if his wife died and medical experts later figured out a way for Terri to live a better life, Michael Schiavo said that was a medical impossibility. "Let's be realistic, Larry. You can't re-grow a brain," he said. Meanwhile, outside the hospice where Terri is staying, her brother thanked supporters on behalf of the family and said they remain optimistic her feeding tube will be reinserted. At the same time, he said it is disturbing to visit his sister without the feeding tube in. "She's still alert, but we're going on four days now and we're slowly watching my sister being starved to death," Bobby Schindler said. "It's a surreal situation when you walk in there and you realize you're watching a loved one slowly being starved to death and dehydrated to death. It's hard to describe." CNN's Ted Barrett, Bob Franken and Terry Frieden contributed to this report. Find this article at: http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/22/schiavo/index.html |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 22nd, 2005, 9:58am on 03/21/05 at 20:55:54, clarence wrote:
You almost had me there... Fragmented nightmares from my past were rushing back, consuming me... ...BUT... ...luckily that is Easy Cheez and not Cheez Whiz... Whew! I remain unoffended. Hirvimaki-I-don't-wanna-talk-about-the-Cheez-Whiz-incident-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 22nd, 2005, 10:48am OMG! It just hit me. The answer is so obvious... we need to get Terri to Talos IV immediately. Only the real geeks will understand. Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by clarence on Mar 22nd, 2005, 12:48pm on 03/22/05 at 09:58:06, Hirvimaki wrote:
Well, at least I tried. ;) Casey |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:04pm on 03/22/05 at 12:48:12, clarence wrote:
Yes, you did. And do not think it is unappreciated! BTW, not a single geek in this fold? [smiley=bag.gif] Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by guesst on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:09pm on 03/22/05 at 10:48:10, Hirvimaki wrote:
I'm pretty sure Gena will get this one. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by pattik on Mar 22nd, 2005, 1:24pm on 03/22/05 at 10:48:10, Hirvimaki wrote:
I think this a Trekki thing? Oh yeah....Spock ;) |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Donna_D. on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:02pm http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/images/thumb/b/b8/200px-TalosIV2254.jpg Beam me UP!! ;;D DD |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Gena on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:28pm on 03/22/05 at 13:09:07, guesst wrote:
Talos IV Class-M planet, home of the Talosians. Thousands of centuries ago, a nuclear war nearly wiped out the entire civilization; the survivors lived underground where they became dependent on illusion-creating technology. The S.S. Columbia crashed here in 2236; the U.S.S. Enterprise visited in 2254. As of 2266, contact with Talos IV was forbidden by Starfleet, due to the addictive qualities of the illusion technology. Captain Christopher Pike, however, returned to the planet so he could live out his days unencumbered by his physically damaged body. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by guesst on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:36pm on 03/22/05 at 14:28:42, Gena wrote:
That's my baby! She's so smart! No wonder I love her. :-* |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:39pm on 03/22/05 at 14:28:42, Gena wrote:
BINGO!!! ;;D Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sylvan on Mar 22nd, 2005, 2:59pm on 03/22/05 at 14:28:42, Gena wrote:
Correct me if i'm wrong - but didn't Capt. Pike have full brain function? Poor Terri's body is ok - but her brain is not. Shame we can't offer our loved ones the same dignity we would offer a pet in similar circumstances. If she truly has no sentience left - perhaps she's the lucky one here - she may not be able to feel either the pain of her body shutting down - nor the pain of watching the people she cares about dragging this through the muck over and over and over. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 22nd, 2005, 3:17pm What I don't understand is why Terri has never (repeat: NEVER) been afforded the opportunity to rehab therapy. Not ever. Not once in the last 15 years. How can anyone definitively say that her case is hopeless if they don't test out that theory? Doesn't THAT say something about the quality of care she's been given during this time? IMO, that points directly back at her husband denying her that chance. So tragic. Peace be with you, Terri - I pray that your transition is quiet and painless. :'( |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 22nd, 2005, 3:26pm Always good to hear a Canadian's perspective. I can just hear the chatter down at the local Tim Horton's. "Hav ya heard what them damn yanks have started doin now? They're pullin the plugs on all the poor young girls in Persistent Vegetative State" Hey, Gord, didn't ya have a sister that went to Persistent Vegetative State for nursing school? Are you only reading what the Canadian papers are offering you for information on this case? NEVER had an opportunity for Rehab? Make sure you look for more of the story than what the Christian Broadcast Network is shooting over the border for you to watch. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 22nd, 2005, 3:36pm um, Seasonal? Here, let me speak some Canadian for you. Hold on a sec there, bud. I got this information from this very thread. From an article that Guesst posted. It was also on CNN last night as well. On the American channel. (The one that puts the little circle around the hockey pucks so Americans can follow the game. ;)) Here's Thomas' (Guesst) link: http://www.terrisfight.net/press/051704statement.html it's mentioned in the sixth paragraph. The CNN broadcast went on last night to say that this was, indeed true and that this "luxury" has never been afforded Teri. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by guesst on Mar 22nd, 2005, 3:38pm on 03/22/05 at 15:36:03, Margi wrote:
;) You go girl! |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 22nd, 2005, 3:49pm This thread was too long. I couldn't read it all so I laid in wait for an innocent Canadian to inject their two Toonies into the conversation. And, by the way, that was FOX that used the little circle around the puck, as long as we're trying to get each other's nationalistic rantings straight. (I liked how it would change colors on a hard shot or a soft shot.) Just what would they be rehabbing if she did go to rehab. "Okay Terry we're going to match these shapes today" -- "Oh, you don't want to do that again today?" |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 22nd, 2005, 3:54pm /waiting for another body check... This should be fun! Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 22nd, 2005, 3:54pm this from the only American in a family full of Canadians, huh? What, you got a death wish, man? in all seriousness, though, I don't understand why anyone would having a problem giving anyone a chance at rehab - just one chance. What's so wrong with that? I have a very close friend who suffered multiple strokes and her family was told she would never be able to walk, talk, feed herself, etc. She's completely back to normal today because of rehab. Because her husband pushed for it even though the doctors said it was hopeless. They even applied the "v-word" to her. ::) |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:02pm well, Thomas, you're the cutest cucumber I ever did see. I'm sure Gena thinks so, too! :) Glad you BEET the odds. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:03pm my canadian heritage has everything to do with this..... citing the family's letter in this case, and CNN's "reporting" may not provide the most complete view of things. As much as CNN projects "america" to the rest of the world --- it's all they do all day is try to build a bigger story than the one that is actually happening. Everyone's got a story to tell, but not one of them is really Terry Schiavo and her husband's story. Do you honestly believe that they have done nothing over the last 15 years to help, rehab, awaken, pray for, wait for, watch, talk, sing, play music, this poor woman? When the "other" side on this story attempts to portray in this kind of dark shading the vile nature of Terry's husband, do you really believe he's that bad a guy? Doesn't it make your antenna's go up a little to say, "that does'nt fully make sense." Why would they feel the need to destroy this man to make their case? The answer goes back to my post on some early page of this thread. ITS ALL POLITICS. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:15pm I completely understand why it is "much more than that" to you. You've been touched by a similar experience that is profound for you and I would never try to argue your rationale for your position on this. And I understand why those who have had situations that this situation reminds them of, feel the way they do. But, each situation brings with it, its own set of variables. The variables in this situation are truly drastically different than yours and to the many stories. These are the Schiavo's variables and legally he has the right to make this decision without the Federal government breaking our constitution to bits to do it. It's sad and it sucks but the president shouldn't be involved in every case where someone disagrees with a lower court judge. I feel bad for the Schindlers, I hope they will find a way to put the energy they are putting into this, to help young women with Bulemia understand that Terry's fate could be their own. That is where the opportunity exists today. That is the lost story in this, is that her pursuit of thin-ness through belumia is what got her in the spot she is in -- other girls can learn from this, more than watching waif-like models as role models. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:16pm Seasonal, I don't disagree with you that the media only gives us what they feel we will feed on. I doubt any of us will ever know the entire story here. I, too, am guilty of assuming things about the husband because of a program I watched about this case years ago that painted him with a very evil brush, a guy with ulterior motives even then - memory is foggy, but it had to do with insurance money and the suspicion that he was somehow involved in the lack of getting her the immediate care needed following her heart attack. I think it was a newsmagazine show (20/20 perhaps?) The bottom line here is that a human being is being judicially FORCED into starvation, a very painful way to die that is not even given to convicted serial murderers. Those animals get treated with far more humanity - at least THEY get lethal injections. Who's to say that Terri won't feel the pain and panic of starvation? And, when did it suddenly become the government's place to second guess the timing of someone's death, all because a husband SAYS she said she didn't want to live like this? It's a he said-she said thing. Don't you think she would have also mentioned that feeling to someone else in her family? It's just morally wrong to play God here, in my opinion. Especially in a controversial case such as this one where the husband has historically portrayed a less than angelic picture. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:20pm shit, is that all I was arguing about.... |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sylvan on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:23pm This is a fairly un-biased history of the actual legal and medical events surrounding this case: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html The timeline is especially interesting as it shows many attempts at rehabilitation. It also contains links to specific judgements. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by seasonalboomer on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:30pm on 03/22/05 at 16:23:50, Sylvan wrote:
After reading part of the site cited in Sylvan's post I retract all of my more sensitive posts and go back to my more insensitive positions taken in my original posted argument with Margi, even the digs at Canadians. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:34pm And I still think this thread was more interesting when it was about Star Trek. Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 22nd, 2005, 4:41pm Wow, Sylvan - thanks for posting that. I did learn a lot from it but am learning to take everything with a grain of salt. Only the family and the husband will ever know the real truth, not the filtered media version. Amazing what you can find on the internet, huh? Although, I must say - THIS really pisses me off... :-X January 1993… Michael recovers $1 million settlement for medical malpractice claim involving Terri's care; jury had ruled in Michael's favor on allegations Terri's doctors failed to diagnose her bulimia, which led to her heart failure; case settled while on appeal 3 short years after her heart attack, he pockets a million bucks! Hullo?? Wouldn't YOU notice if your spouse developed an eating disorder? Real attentive guy, if you ask me. You tell ME that he only paid attention to her "i don't want to live like a 'v-word'" but he missed the fact that she was purging most meals and most probably had become rail thing as a result? Repeat: hullo????? ::) Good to see that she was given the opportunity at therapy in the early stages. But I see it was denied in 2000. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Sylvan. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Ree on Mar 22nd, 2005, 7:10pm This is totally my opinion on this case because of how this case has unravelled. I think Terrys husband should just divorce her and get out of her life. He has moved on with another woman and had children with another woman. As long as the parents are willing to care for her and there is a way to keep her alive they should do just that. In the beginning of this case they had kept her alive by artificial means and the husband first wanted her to be taken off the respirators. They did that and she lived. Now he wants them to starve her to death. They should have never put her on such devices in the first place, if he knew her wishes were to not be put on artificial means. He no longer loves her as a wife or he wouldnt have taken another common law wife. It doesnt work like that. What if she suddenly did get better, had they come up with a cure or a miracle. Would he say to the other woman "OH sorry bye... my wife is better now". In my opinion he is no longer married to her. He should leave the care of Terry up to her parents and the docs. If she did get better it would further complicate his life. Why would he want for her to get better? I think because she WAS on a tube... she should have been left on that tube. I believe its wrong to end someones life this way. Even a dogs life would be ended more humanely.... I would not want to live like that. But I have requested that I not be ever put on artificial means to begin with. Its a very sad strange case... I pray that God take her swiftly and that her husband meet his maker someday and pay for his sins.......Terry after all was a bulemic woman who had lapsed into a coma, after her eating disorder caused heart failure. Ironically it is by NOT eating that will take her to God. If he made her feel adequate in life she probably wouldnt have been bulemic in the first place....... ree |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Jonny on Mar 22nd, 2005, 7:21pm on 03/22/05 at 19:10:22, Ree wrote:
So I guess it works with never having loving human contact ever again? Sorry, just had to ask. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sean_C on Mar 22nd, 2005, 7:45pm on 03/22/05 at 19:10:22, Ree wrote:
I don't care what anyone else thinks but that really made me think Ree. Your right, maybe it was her destiny. Regardless, if she does make that journey she will be free. God Speed Terri Sean........................................ |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 22nd, 2005, 7:55pm Although it's probably been stated 100 times in this thread (haven't read through all of it), I think the most important thing we can learn here is to have your wishes legalized, documented, known by everyone, etc. If you want your life to be prolonged, no matter what...that's okay, but make that wish HEARD. And if you want to be sure nobody keeps you alive in a state that you would definitely not want to be alive in, this also needs to be known. Either way...it's gotta be in legal format. I believe that this is taught me to make my express wishes known in a living will and to find out if anyone in my family already would take issue with following my wishes. Because if they did, then I also want to make sure that they NEVER have the power to make a legal decision in the case I am unable to make that decision myself. I've been asked if I wanted to make a living will tons of times when in the hospital, and I've always declined. However, I think I will probably be making one in the near future. The biggest problem is not the infighting...it's that nobody can know for sure what Terri wanted. That's not even her fault...she was young and most young people don't think about creating living wills. They might state their wishes, but they hardly ever take the means to have it legally documented. Terri may have talked about her wishes, but it's always going to be a case of "he said, she said" because nothing is written down. No matter if you want to live in the most extreme circumstances or you want you a complete DNR under any situation....or anything on the spectrum in between...it is best to get this documented. (Of course this can't apply to minors or those with DPOA because that's just an entirely different issue...however, it definitely applies to anyone who is considered to be an adult in the eyes of the law and who has the ability to make conscientious decisions for themselves) I just pray for peace for all of them...however they may find it. Carrie |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Ree on Mar 22nd, 2005, 8:03pm on 03/22/05 at 19:21:55, Jonny wrote:
If it was legal in this country you would have a harem!!!! duhhhhhhhh??? lol ree |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Jonny on Mar 22nd, 2005, 8:11pm on 03/22/05 at 20:03:17, Ree wrote:
Hell Ree, you know my answer to that.....LOL ;;D |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by TxBasslady on Mar 22nd, 2005, 8:25pm on 03/22/05 at 20:03:17, Ree wrote:
LMFAO ....a harem???? Like, as in just 1 [smiley=huh.gif] Damn, I think that should read in the plural sense [smiley=huh.gif] Love ya......jonny :-* Jean |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by E-Double on Mar 22nd, 2005, 8:27pm Jumping in...... on 03/22/05 at 19:55:18, Lizzie2 wrote:
Bingo! on 03/22/05 at 16:41:57, Margi wrote:
on 03/22/05 at 19:10:22, Ree wrote:
These are two very bold statements....Eating disorders like many behavioral disorders/sicknesses/diseases encompass certain aspects of addiction.....That being said, MANY people who are addicts become extremely good at covering up until things are too late! This includes those who have eating disorders..... Not to delve into personal lives but I am sure that there are pleanty of people out there with loving relationships that have gone "quite a while" without truly noticing a subtle drop in weight or weight gain in our partners.... Then suddenly it creeps up and you realize ther is a difference....... What is noticed is not necessarily the change in appearance but certain changes in behavior that are demonstrated by the afflicted. We don't know what the situation was nor will we ever.... Too much judgement being passed. on 03/22/05 at 19:10:22, Ree wrote:
on 03/22/05 at 19:21:55, Jonny wrote:
I couldn't agree more......I'm a newlywed as many of you here know and the fact is this....(my feelings) I would want my wife to be able to move on and hopefully experience a love comparable to ours again!!!That does not mean that she stopped loving me. It means that she loved me enough to be able to SURVIVE! I don't judge anyone....or I should say that I try my hardest not to judge anyone. This whole thing is unfair for this woman period....Screw the family. Screw the hubby.....It is unfair for her! Now question what are the conflicting parties advocating for? are they wanting her to be in "peace" alive or dead? or are they afraid to lose the one they love? Letting go is harder the more you love! I've lost many a loved one under several different circumstances, both natural and way before their time..... We fight and fight for those suffering to not give up and we hope for recovery....Sometimes this is possible(I have seen this first hand) sometimes it is not (I have seen this too) It's a part of life! |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Donna_D. on Mar 22nd, 2005, 8:45pm I would like to know one thing.... How many people expressing opinions in THIS THREAD have advocated for Terry (or against) PRIOR TO THIS THREAD? There have been some very passionate opinions expressed here and I am just curious.... DD |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Charlie on Mar 22nd, 2005, 8:54pm Quote:
We have a Tim Hortons, HE SCORES! here in Jamestown, NY. The chatter there is rarely profound. Mostly about coffee, cinnamon buns, and the progress of the new CVS construction across the street. Charlie http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/eat.gif |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by floridian on Mar 22nd, 2005, 9:13pm on 03/22/05 at 20:45:47, Donna_D. wrote:
I have. For her wishes to be carried out. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 22nd, 2005, 10:23pm I have followed this for a long time now. That's why when I remarried, the first thing we did was draft a will and a DPOA Health Proxy 6 years ago. In light of this case reaching the point it has, I sat my children down (the 13 and 11 year olds) and had them read the DPOA. We had a long discussion about what it means. I then called my mother and we went over everything between us for each of us. Interestingly, my children both expressed strong wishes not to be kept in that state. I explained to them that until they reach the age of 21 I would do everything in my power to keep them alive. After that they can write out their wishes and I will honour them. Both children sat down and wrote out their wishes for organ donation should anything ever happen to them. Perhaps the only good thing that will come from this is the discussions among family members that it has caused. Just as a thought, I made my first husband promise me that he would never let me live that way, we had nothing written down. I'd like to believe that he would have honoured that promise no matter what my parents would have done. Cat |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Charlie on Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:10am The inns, as they say, have forgotten to listen to the majority. It used to be just Catholics who would make noise about this stuff. In their defense, you can't argue with their point of view. No abortion and no executions. It's elegant and at least consistent. Charlie, who has made his wishes known to relatives and and friends alike. It's on paper as well. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by rickyshot on Mar 23rd, 2005, 9:23am Here Here Ree and Margi. And as far as him finding a girlfriend I am not surprised. When women die most are not even cold in the grave and the poor widower has someone next week. So typical....... |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by judkins on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:05am My daily thoughts are being consumed by Terri and her family. main concerns being.... I have always had a fear of someone being thirsty. I was a carer for 23 years and many patients were so sick that they could not swallow. i have spent many hours at night with a terminally ill patient trying to keep their lips moist at least. Please God don't let her linger too long and when she finally takes her journey home welcome her into the light of your eternal love. God Bless Terri |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:05am Everyone needs to read and re-read Carrie's post - VERY well said!! Mike and I talked about this very point last night and we've expressed our wishes to each other if this ever happens to either one of us. I phoned my Mum and told her too and plan to tell our daughters this weekend. If we learn NOTHING else from Terri's tragic journey here it should be that we need to address these issues and make provisions so that our loved ones never have to face the pain her family is going through right now. Godspeed, Terri - you're almost Home, darlin. We all wish it could have been different for you. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sylvan on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:07am on 03/23/05 at 10:05:53, Margi wrote:
Amen |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:33am I still have to say I do not know what is right or wrong in this... It is very confusing. And painful. I was reluctant to post about my personal feelings, because it hits very close to home right now. A little more than a month ago a very dear friend (we've known each other since we were 14 or so) collapsed. She was taken to the hospital. They had no idea what was wrong with her. They sent her home. She again collapsed, but this time it was worse. She is now in a hospital bed, with brain damage and the doctors still have no idea what is going on. They continue to run tests, she continues to deteriorate. And I watch as this vibrant person seems to melt before my eyes, I watch the pain in her husband's eyes and watch the confusion on her child's face. She has no idea who her mother is. She can barely talk and when she does, it is unclear if she really is talking. This would be just a sad story, but I am the executor for her living will. And I find myself having to make choices, make decisions that I do not want to be making. It is a confusing and painful position in which to be. And already there is fighting among her family and her husband's family. Despite all the legal papers stating this and that, it is not black and white. And to me it is not clear. I can't image what it would be like without the guidance those papers give, but still... Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by TxBasslady on Mar 23rd, 2005, 11:00am on 03/23/05 at 10:33:29, Hirvimaki wrote:
Well stated...Hirv Now......just imagine....if this were your child, or mine. You are so right.....what would we do...how would we handle this Until we are faced with this....we have no idea! So sorry about your dear friend, Hirv....My prayers and thoughts will be with you, sweetie. Stay Strong! Prayers and vibes to you....and to Terri. Much love, Jean |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by nani on Mar 23rd, 2005, 11:15am I'm so sorry Hirv...what a terrible tragedy. :'( Sending prayers to Terri, your friend and you. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Jackie on Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:17pm I've watched this thread for days. There are many valid points being made and many opinions being voiced. I'm not sure any of us know what we would do....not for sure...not until we've been faced with the situation. Every circumstance is different. Every situation is unique. I was faced with the decision once. It was my Daddy. He had been on life support for 3 weeks. Every day he was getting worse. Every day something else went bad. Finally I sat my Mother and brothers down and told them.... "We have to stop this. Daddy is not going to get well. We have seen to it that he's had every chance to get well but he can't....not this time. We've done for Daddy what he would have done for us....now we have to do what Daddy would do. We have to let him go. We have to let the suffering stop. We have to stop being selfish." My Mother cried like I've never seen anyone cry....so did my brothers. My Mom thanked me for being brave....I wasn't brave at all....I was scared and helpless and heartbroken. Then Mom asked if I would make the call to the doctor. I did make the call...I made it for my Daddy and for my Mom. You see...I knew my Daddy and he would never have wanted to live like that....not like that. The next day he was taken off life support. My Mom and brothers kissed him good bye and left the room. I stayed with Daddy for several hours....just me and my Daddy...like when I was a little girl. I held his hand, talked to him, hugged him, told him he was not alone and that it was all right, told him how much I loved him. I know he heard me....I know he did.....and then he was gone. Every situation is different.... Thomas...thank God your parents made the decision the did....we love ya. Hirvimaki....bless your heart....you're in a tough place for sure. Ya know...the good Lord did a lot of things right but I sure wish he'd have done a few things differently. Like teeth for example....they give ya trouble all your life...from when you're a baby cutting them until you're an adult and they're falling out. Let's not forget about female organs either...LOL. I sure wish he'd have put a switch on us too....one we could flip when we were done...when it was OK to flip it. That's all.... Jacks 8) |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sylvan on Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:42pm I too had to be involved in a situation where a family member was terminally ill and had doctors urging extensive medical treatment and life support. My aunt was dx with multiple cancers last xmas. Bone cancer, lung cancer, stomach cancer, esophagal etc. She was 84 at the time and had been relatively healthy and active until getting very weak over a short period of time. The doctors urged her to undergo chemotherapy and radiation treatments. These would have prolonged her life but she would likely have remained on breathing and probably feeding equipment and would definately be hospitalized for the rest of her life. The doctors felt they might be able to keep her alive 6-12 months this way. One of the hardest converstaions i've ever had was the one where my family and i explained to my Aunt that she was allowed to refuse treatment if that was her choice. I will be forever grateful that she was aware and alert and able to make the decisions SHE wanted. She passed peacefully about 6 weeks after her initial diagnosis without having to suffer the additional side effects of the treatment and without being sustained by any machines. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by vig on Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:52pm My mom had cancer and gave the plug-pulling power to a friend of hers, so that her children wouldn't have to face the question.... |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Kirk on Mar 23rd, 2005, 2:01pm With any luck I'll either auger the plane into the Andes, or the King Crab in the Bering will be picking my bones. If not my living will says yank the plug. Devil take the hind most. See Ya'll there. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Ree on Mar 23rd, 2005, 4:44pm I told Sean C this story yesterday. I had a childhood boy friend Matt. I loved him very much. He decided that we were more friends than boyfriend/girlfriends and chose a girl that couldn't be more opposite than me. They married and moved to Cali. Over the years I still cut his mothers hair. When I first met Dave, Matt got into a motorcycle accident and became brain injured. Story being that he got jealous and left the house angry because his wife recieved flowers from a guy at work and he was going to find out where the flowers came from. He is confined to bed and has to be cared for like a baby. A few years after the accident his wife "Carole" brought a boy friend into the house... she also stopped bringing him to his therapy sessions, and moved away from his rehabilitation center so that the SSI checks from the state would come directly to her. Now you tell me, why would Carole want Matt to get better if she was starting her life over again with Joe............? Joe left after about a year. I think it was a little too hard to handle. Matts mom said to me one day "She is young and deserves to go on with her life, she has her needs." I told her what I will say to you now... What happened to for better for worse? What happened to til death do us part??? There are no guarantees in life. There is no guarantee that you will marry someone and they will stay healthy. I would want my husband to also meet someone again and be happy but at least put me in my grave first....or at least divorce me and give me some dignity. I know if I was still with Matt... I would care for him till he died. If ever I hit the lottery I will go and get Matt and bring him back to Massachusetts........ its a plan. Remember my friend Kim... she was in a coma for a long time and came out of it. Suppose her husband didnt wait for her. Suppose he took another common law wife and had more kids while she was in the coma. Where would she be today? He is still married to her and she has been brain injured. It is true that some guys can't be alone. My Brother in Law met a woman 2 months after his wife died. We were all worried that he didnt grieve. I know that I didnt get to grieve for fear that I would make the new girl feel bad. We still don't talk about my sister in law and I loved her dearly... this is all based on the facts here... why I feel the way I do... how I love someone. And how I feel about marriage. love to you all lets hope we never have to deal with any of this horror... ree |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Grandma_Sweet_Boy on Mar 23rd, 2005, 5:12pm Amen Ree - couldn't agree more with you and Margi on this one. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Hirvimaki on Mar 23rd, 2005, 5:15pm on 03/23/05 at 16:44:15, Ree wrote:
I could not agree more. When I said "I do" to Eveliina, I meant "I do" to all those things that we said to each other at the ceremony. For better or for worse. In sickness and in health. For richer or poorer. In good times and bad. Til death do us part. They were not just pretty words. I meant it. During the course of a lifetime, you can fall in-love and out of it many, many, many times. But I did not promise to always be in-love with my wife. I promised to always love her. And there is a huge difference. Hirvimaki-Isi |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Margi on Mar 23rd, 2005, 5:40pm Damnit, Jackie - you do it to me every time! I'm glad you don't post too much anymore. Takes a LOT to make me cry but you have an uncanny knack of being able to push that button for me. BIG hugs, gal - I know that was hard for you to post. I remember when your Daddy passed. You were SO strong through it, and I know you were everyone's rock. My question is though, who is YOUR rock, woman? And don't go telling me you don't need one. We all do. Don't forget you've got some lifelong friends here (even if you haven't met us all face to face yet) that would, without question, give you a place to lean. Are we clear on this, Crystal? ;) Ree, you and I think SO much alike. Amen to everything you said in your posts here. Hirv, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. My thoughts and prayers are with you. |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 23rd, 2005, 9:58pm on 03/23/05 at 10:05:53, Margi wrote:
Thanks for giving me the credit there, Margi. A great amount of opinions have been voiced in this thread, and I really thought it was interesting to read everyone's thoughts as well as discuss this with my own family and close friends in person. I think ultimately I just know I feel pretty strongly about creating a living will now that I've heard so much about this story in the past few days especially. I know I have strong feelings about my life and how I want it to be handled in certain situations, so I just think the best way to be sure is for me to put that in a legal document as well as discuss it with my family and find out where everyone stands. One additional thing I heard on the radio today was in reference to having a health care proxy which is sort of like a DPOA...at least I think! I know I've read a lot about having a health care proxy in that they can sign consents for you, but I'm not sure if they are equal to a DPOA. It's basically one person that you would specifically designate to make medical desicions for you. That would be the most difficult for me. I would, first of all, have to pick both my parents at this point. What if they disagreed with each other? That would suck a lot, but I do trust them both to have my best interests at heart, and I couldn't pick my mom over my dad or vice versa as to who should have that ultimate say. But I trust my parents more than anyone at this point. Of course, I'm still young and I'm single. Once I'm married and have a family, I hope that I will have entered a marriage in such a positive way that I would want to have my husband become my health care proxy and be able to make decisions for me. However, I still have some time before I'd have to make that decision! :) I really learned a lot by reading everyone's insights...no matter how much I may agree or disagree with certain ideas, it still taught me a lot! Carrie :) |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by catlind on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:35pm Lizzie, What we have is a DPOA Health proxy. In it, it gives the authority to my husband to handle power of attorney, and further lists the specific medical circumstances I want addressed, and then addresses the things I want done for those circumstances. So I guess it is one step beyond the living will in that it is a legal DPOA for health only, but lists and addresses my wishes with specifics as well. There is also an alternate should my husband be incapable. Unfortunately mine is under NY state still so we have to get them redone under NE laws. In addition, I have to have one that adheres to Canadian law as I"m still a Canadian citizen. I only know that I would not want anyone else involved in those decisions - not my mother, brother or children - and most certainly not the government. I not only ask, but expect that my husband would fully honour my wishes. (please note I am only speaking about what I want, not what I think should or shouldn't have happened for Terri Shiavo) Cat |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Lizzie2 on Mar 24th, 2005, 12:12am Cat, Thanks for your explanation there. That helps me understand a health care proxy a little more clearly. And you also touched on something else that they mentioned in the news program which is also really important to consider. Just because you create a living will in one state, does not necessarily mean it is a legal document in all states! It's important for all of us who want to create a living will to make sure we know the specific laws from state to state, too. There seems to be so much involved, but I really think this is a wake up call to all of us. I, too, speak just based on how I feel about my own life were I to be in such a situation because I think we can't make the decision for Terri Schiavo's familiy for them, given the circumstances. However, I just know how I would feel about it. If I got to the point where she currently is, I would feel that the feeding tube is equal to ventilation in providing an artificial form of life support. I wouldn't want either one! On the news tonight, they actually just discussed a case in either PA or NJ where a woman tried to override the family's wishes and get her husband a feeding tube placed. However, he had signed a living will that expressed his wishes, and so the judge decided that his wishes must be upheld. That's how it should be. If someone disagrees with your living will but doesn't have any legal power to do so, then the courts, hospitals, etc really need to go by the wishes of the patient who created the living will. Anyhow...thanks again for explaining it even more! On the radio they said there is quite a large amount of people rushing to obtain a living will, and even then they were saying that people need more education about all legal aspects involved. Hopefully that's the one benefit that will come out of all of this, given it is such a tragic situation. I think a large number of people have now come to realize (especially among the younger population) that if you have specific wishes, then you need to take the proper measures to ensure that this will be upheld and won't go all the way to congress and the President's desk should you wind up in a situation where you can't advocate for yourself anymore! I'm not kidding when I say I used to laugh when the nurses would ask me if I wanted a living will. Since the start of nursing school and also now even moreso with this case, I don't laugh anymore! I plan to get one as soon as I can! Take care, Lizzie :) |
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Title: Re: How do you feel about this? Post by Sylvan on Mar 24th, 2005, 6:09pm I know this isn't the topic of the day today - but i found this article containing excerpts from 6 different Dr's Reports and thought some of you might be interested: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0324brain-damaged-excerpts24-ON.html |
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