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Title: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 22nd, 2004, 7:07pm Clinton made a few mistakes. We all do. Now dubya had a mandate? What's moral high ground? Is it imposing your will and your beliefs on others ? Is it limiting freedom? Is it outlawing abortion or introducing religion in compulsory school programs? Not the America I would be proud of. Fortunately if you examine history all radical swings to the extreme right or left are quickly corrected back toward the center. The moderates generally take control. The supreme court doesn't change quickly and even those with liberal or conservative tendencies will vote toward the center on any given issue. Dubya's not going to hijack the country. In fact, I doubt he even cares to. America has its faults but the majority of Americans are kind and thoughtful enough to keep it going generally in the right direction... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by nani on Nov 22nd, 2004, 7:11pm Quote:
Dubya aside...has the Christian right hijacked the Rebublican party though? |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jonny on Nov 22nd, 2004, 7:15pm Here we go....hang on to your seats......LMMFAO ;;D |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 22nd, 2004, 7:48pm Quote:
The party of moral values deemed that crime pays, shielding Tom DeLay with a rule that someone facing a felony charge can still be a leader. Janet Jackson's tit on stage! Horrors! Stone her to death! Marlin's right too. Since its inception, the country zig zags its way to the left. Slowly but surely...... Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by nani on Nov 22nd, 2004, 9:00pm Seems I heard (only a very small part of) a news story about a week after the election that Christian groups were submitting a list of (I forget the exact word but this comes closest-) demands to Bush and Congress. Hmmmm.... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 22nd, 2004, 9:02pm on 11/22/04 at 19:15:26, Jonny wrote:
nani, who cares? The republicans aren't going to get elected every time. Not even next time. By then they'll be in a panic and will be dumping the hard core bible thumpers like a date that farts in a restaurant. ::) |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by nani on Nov 22nd, 2004, 9:04pm Marlin- I'm pretty sure that's what we thought last time... :-/ |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by don on Nov 22nd, 2004, 9:49pm If you all had listened to me before the election this discussion wouldn't be neccesary. I said loud and clear "Al Sharpton is our man!" Anybody listen? NOOOOOOOOOOO! |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 22nd, 2004, 10:23pm Look, The dems need some serious work. They need to pick a candidate with genuine national appeal. And preferably one that doesn't have "anti viet nam war activist" as his principal crowning achievement if we happen to be in the middle of a conflict regardless how ill concieved... :o |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by nani on Nov 22nd, 2004, 11:00pm I'm with you there...I never liked Kerry as "the guy". I personally liked Wesley Clark and Howard Dean was my 2nd choice. But - WOW- that John Edwards is HOT... ;;D |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 22nd, 2004, 11:11pm Beer nuts and deer nuts....botth just under a buck. Woman, can't live with her....pass the beer nuts. Bush is what he is. Why stress what it is when your voice doen not matter. When the majority of the U.S. peoples impose (force) enough of their beliefs onto the "land of the free" I will hop on the fastest boat to England so I may live my life as I choose. Kinda ironic...don't you think? |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:37am To repeat my quote of the day: "The worst government is the most moral. One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane. But when fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression." ---H. L. Mencken Quote:
Ralph Reed, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their larcenous busybody friends have done this ever since the nauseating "family values" crap became part of politics. The Republicans haven't paid much attention after they won. They do so only close to elections. These groups by their narrow view of the world haven't displayed much in the way of street smarts. By the way, Jimmi, during the Revolution, loyalists for a very long time outnumbered revolutionaries. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by tommyD on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:24am Must be H.L. Mencken Day...friend just sent me this: Mencken's Creed I believe that religion, generally speaking, has been a curse to mankind - that its modest and greatly overestimated services on the ethical side have been more than overcome by the damage it has done to clear and honest thinking. I believe that no discovery of fact, however trivial, can be wholly useless to the race, and that no trumpeting of falsehood, however virtuous in intent, can be anything but vicious. I believe that all government is evil, in that all government must necessarily make war upon liberty. I believe that the evidence for immortality is no better than the evidence of witches, and deserves no more respect. I believe in the complete freedom of thought and speech... I believe in the capacity of man to conquer his world, and to find out what it is made of, and how it is run. I believe in the reality of progress. I - But the whole thing, after all, may be put very simply. I believe that it is better to tell the truth than to lie. I believe that it is better to be free than to be a slave. And I believe that it is better to know than be ignorant. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:36am I sure like this Thursday when we celebrate the custom started by the Pilgrims. Stopping to thank God for all of His blessings. It's good to live in a country founded on religious beliefs. And even better to live in one that still embraces those beliefs. Who do you give thanks to on Thanksgiving? |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:41am on 11/22/04 at 19:11:15, nani wrote:
I hope so. This country was founded by Christian men based on Christian beliefs. I think it's time for Christians to take it back. BTW: Don't bring up the constitutional seperation of Church and State unless you can show exactly where it is in the constitution. Fire at will. I'm ready for it. ;;D |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by john_d on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:41am on 11/23/04 at 06:24:37, tommyD wrote:
I believe this is a bunch of bullshit opinions peppered with known truths to give it legitimacy. I believe that whoever wrote that is trying to blame our systems and processes even though what is really wrong is that we are imperfect beings. I believe that no matter how we change our systems and processes, that whatever results will only be both as beautiful and ugly as we are. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by don on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:44am Quote:
I'm sure the Native American population would love to here all about that theory. We have only been guests in this land since the the first Pilgrim set foot on the rock and BAD guests at that. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:56am The Pilgrims and the Native Americans were very friendly toward each other. Unfortunately some times good things are hijacked by bad people. Praying the peace and love of God is with all of us this holiday season. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:01am Charlie, your theory about the Republican's using the religious right to get elected, and then ignoring them has been true in the past, but will it change? Can the 'fundamental correctness' mob be controlled if it continues to grow? Is the US going to show those Iranians that we can be just as pious and theocratic as they are? Quote:
Not sure how many people still believe that the Earth is flat, or that the sun revolves around the Earth. Alternative stickers for textbooks - some quite humorous: http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/ |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:04am on 11/23/04 at 09:41:22, ExplodingEyeBall wrote:
That's a tired old line. You don't need to travel too far down the document. 1st Amendment? "Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" on 11/23/04 at 09:41:22, ExplodingEyeBall wrote:
You forgot to say which ones. Every single time I check there's a brand new group of "Christians" with a brand spanking new set of rules. How many sets of new rules can we play by? That's partly what the seperation is about. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Melissa on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:09am I'm not gonna post, I'm not gonna post, I'm not gonna post, I'm not gonna post, I'm not gonna post... [smiley=bigcry.gif] |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:10am Quote:
Actually, we all realize that amendment gives us freedom of religion, it doesn't say there shall be no connection between church and state. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:20am on 11/23/04 at 10:04:06, marlin wrote:
OK.. You found the part where we are promised not have any particular religion be forced on us by the government. I still fail to see anything pertaining to a 'wall of seperation between Church and State'. It isn't there. There never was a law saying we HAD to have the 10 commandments any where but try to post them anywhere and remind people that there are actually some real God given laws to live by and they go nuts making laws to remove them. Edited to add: Rules? That's pretty simple. 10 easy rules to live by. The one list that causes God-less people to cringe nation wide. The 10 commandments. They haven't change in my life time or yours. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:21am Moral high ground? In politics? LMMFAO!! There are plenty of mountains, valleys, and lots of high ground, if you've ever seen a topographical map of the ocean floor. [smiley=laugh.gif] Politicians claiming to be moral is like a prostitute wearing a wedding dress. [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:39am on 11/23/04 at 10:09:56, Melissa wrote:
Come on Mel... If you are tough enough to fight CH, you're tough enough to join in here. Stand up for what you believe in. That's what makes all of us special here. We believe what we believe but we all love each other in spite of our differences in opinion, although I may make some enemies today. [smiley=worried.gif] Pat |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:44am on 11/23/04 at 10:20:13, ExplodingEyeBall wrote:
Look, I'm done with this thread. What you guys need to understand is this is a free country. We're free to believe or not to believe in any religion we like. We don't want any branded religion forced down on us against our will with the complicity of our government any more than you would. Do you want your kids to have to read from the Koran? Why can't you simply do what's generally recognized as a quiet reflective thing - connect with your "religion" - in a thoughful peaceful way with your family or those that share your views - in private. Is it so important that you impose your belief system on others? Do you really think others can be persuaded any more easily that you would be? Why? If you don't want your kids to learn about evolution, take 'em out of the class. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by PittsburghJoe on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:45am on 11/23/04 at 09:41:22, ExplodingEyeBall wrote:
So should I expect stoning, or are we humane enough to give lethal injection to gays? Joe |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:47am Love the sinner, hate the sin. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I won't be picking up any rocks today. Have you ever heard me once bash gays? No. Do I agree with the gay life style? no. Do I preach to you or anyone else in this life style about it? no. Do I try to keep on freindly terms and co-exist with everybody here no matter what their life style, religion, color, sex, etc.... YES. I'm just as worthy of a stoning as everybody else here. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:52am /rant on: WTF? Isn't a person's chosen religion something that's between them and their God? If your chosen religion is helping you become a kinder, more loving person, then that's the right religion for you. Ditto for peoples' sexuality: Hetero, homo, metro(?), pan(?), Christian, Pagan, Buddhist, Muslim... WHO FUCKING CARES??!?! STFU, ALREADY!! Man, I am soooooooo tired of sex, religion, and politics being constantly on TV, newsgroups, conversations, magazine covers, newspapers... Goddammit, I swear: One of these days, I'm throwing some crap in a rucksack and hiking into the Sierra Nevadas, and becoming a hermit. /rant off Sorry... *sigh* Can't we all just get a bong? |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:54am Joe, as far as I'm concerned, you can enjoy the freedom of being as gay as you like! Live it up. Just try to encourage the rest of the gay community not to do it so aggressively at election time. We hardly need to fire the morality squad just before pulling the lever - AGAIN... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by PittsburghJoe on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:04am I'm not trying to single you out here, just making a few points. Some of our very lives depend on this, so it's more than just a "go to church every Sunday to be absolved of the sins I commit Monday thru Saturday" thing... But, that IS what this Bible thing teaches. It's right there in the Book of Leviticus, right along with the other "abominations" such as eating shellfish, wearing cloth made of more than one type of fiber, touching a menstruating woman, eating pork and all the other things that Cafeteria Christians seem to ignore. And while I'm on the subject, what exactly is this "life style?" You mean the lifestyle where I work 60 hours a week at two jobs and still have no health insurance? Or the lifestyle where I cook and clean and work to make my life better? Or maybe the one where I have a loving and fulfilling relationship that could turn my life into something horrible if my partner dies or becomes incapacitated, and all because some people cannot bear the thought of thinking about how we occasionally express our love for each other. Bigoted judges can and do declare wills invalid. Bigoted families can and do lock widowed partners out of their own homes, or prevent partners from visiting their loved one in the hospital. Bigoted companies refuse to deal with the realities of our lives and refuse to give us the respect they would give to Britney Spears and her husband of the moment. Live your religion all you want, I have no problem with it. But, as has been said elsewhere, your right to throw a punch ends at the point where it meets my nose. Same goes for your religion. Your right to practice it ends at the point where it interferes with my life. With all due respect (honestly), Joe |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:09am Right on, Joe. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:09am on 11/23/04 at 10:54:18, marlin wrote:
Blame it on the gays? Why stop there? The south was solidly Democratic until the Democrats decided that civil rights for African Americans was something to fight for and enforce. If those uppity negroes hadn't insisted on a seat on the bus, we would still have a Democratic south. And Jim Crow. If the gay rights issue hadn't come up, it (or something similar) would have been invented by the Republicans. They wired a focus group to meters to measure their blood pressure, heart rate, brain waves, and galvanic skin response, and found that the Willie Horton ad (the big black killer) pushed peoples' buttons. That was 1988. That tactic hasn't changed. |
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Title: WTF? Post by Testy1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:12am People (including the Pres and his cronies) are trying to turn the US into a theocracy and citizens are DEFENDING it? Why in hell would anyone push this kind of crap? For what it's worth, I'm living in a country where the "religious right" DID get in charge. It's a real beaut. Women can't drive or work outside primary schools or nursing. They can't drive a car, they can't travel without a male blood-relative as an escort. The schools have been turned into exactly what the religious folks would like to turn US schools into, a place to study religious truths and ignore any and all physical evidence that doesn't agree. The people are backward and ignorant savages and their education and lifestyle is completely useless in a modern, technology-based society. But they're holy, no doubt about that. Adultery (for the woman) carries the death penalty by stoning, (They stake you down and use a dump-truck full of rocks) premarital sex (for the woman) carries the DP, homosexuality carries the DP by beheading. (They use a sword in a public square on Friday afternoon) This is what you get when you put religion (any religion at all) in charge of a country. It can be the Ayatollah Khomeini or the Ayatollahs Falwell and Robertson, it makes no difference in the level of oppression and persecution it engenders. (Whew! Time to climb down off that soapbox!) Jack. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:21am Joe, hang in there. testy, I hope the koranics aren't monitoring your net connection. You may find yourself learning to type with your toes. And Florida, I hear what you're saying. Principles ARE important. But perhaps getting the principles discussed from a position of relative strength would offer better prospects of furthering them. Pick your battles at a time when you have a chance of winning them... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:25am If you or any one else has seen me throw a punch in the name of my religious beliefs, call me on it. I've seen a lot of joking around here on this message board that I personally think is insulting to gays and I have NEVER allowed myself to be a part of it. I may not defend some people on things they are doing but I also don't condemn them because I know that I am just as bad in my own ways. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife" is enough to send me to eternal damnation if it weren't for the saving grace of God. I know that I am just as guilty of beeing a sinner as any other person who is alive right now. If I was perfect I wouldn't need God or any religion. I welcome the fact that there are more people with religious beliefs in our government now and I will continue to assist with voting them in. This does NOT mean that I will vote for just any politicain who claims to be religious. Satan quoted scripture when he was trying to tempt Jesus and there a lot of slick people out there right now who try to do the same thing, polititions included. |
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Title: Marlin Post by Testy1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:25am I hope not. I should be OK though as I'm on a bi-directional satellite connection that comes down in Germany. Regards Jack |
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Title: Exploding Post by Testy1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:33am No one doubts you are a good person. On the other hand, no one trusts religious people to run things. Are they doing something because it is for the good of the country and what they are supposed to do? Or are they doing it because it says so somewhere in an archaic document or because they have been told to do it by a TV preacher somewhere? I don't hate the religious folks, but I do fear them. I fear what, from the very best of motives, they will do to my country. Regards Jack |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:37am "Dear God, Please protect me from your followers. Amen." |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by PittsburghJoe on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:43am EEB, I'm sorry if that seemed like an attack on you, it wasn't meant to be personal. And no, I have never seen you throw a punch, and I do respect you for that. We're all here for one reason, one that your name on here expresses so well. That is one fight we're all in together. Coming from the lovely Santorum State of PA, sometimes the rhetoric can feel mighty personal to me. It isn't a good feeling to be compared to pedophiles, goat-fuckers, thieves and murderers by ones own elected representative (which I hope will end in 2006). I'm just trying to present an alternate view, to bring a voice and a face to an issue that so many are wont to dismiss as something that is important to "those people" instead of to real people. I respect your beliefs, and your right to hold them and practice them. The fact that my life experience has pointed me in a different path doesn't make me inferior or evil (and I'm not accusing you of saying such). It just makes me different. And trust me, if you think I'm strident here, you should see me with my family, especially the fundie part of it! [smiley=laugh.gif] Peace, my brother. Just peace. Joe |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:47am Here's the way I see it. Since only those who practice and believe in the American God (you know, the white guy from the middle east) are going to heaven then why not let the rest of us enjoy our short time on earth. Two thirds of the planet will not be bringing down your property values within the exclusive pearly gates and you will have an eternity to enjoy you lifestyle. So, at the very least you can let all of the pagans, gays, orientals, wiccans, budists and most liberals divulge in our satanic rituals we call living the life we choose. Really, what is one lifetime compared to eternity? 8) - Jmin |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:53am There are fanatical people in walks of life and I don't trust any person I see to be fanatical about something. Would I want any one religion forced on the people of the United Staes? No way!!! That's what freedom is about. I expect to have my freedoms too though. If I want to keep a Bible on my desk, I shouldn't have my employer coming down on me over it. I already had one employer warn me about a cap I was wearing that had the 'Promise Keepers' logo on it. I asked him if this was a case of religious discrimination and he never said anything about it again. If I want to thank God for the things I have, I have the right to do so without a bunch of complaining. If they want to teach the THEORY of evolution in School, they should also include creation. If my daughter wants to say grace before she eats her lunch at School, she better not have any problems over it. I'm a card carrying, Bible believing, praying, sinning, born again, forgiven Christian and that will NEVER change. I'm proud to live in a country that is still (I don't know why???) seen as a Christian nation and I'll continue to try and keep it that way. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:55am I think that regardless of political bent or sexual preference, we can all agree that boobies are nice. :) Let's hear it for BOOBIES! HOORAY!! Maybe I'll start a church.... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:00pm Quote:
Wheres the proof of Adam and Eve? ANd if this is true, then we are all related right? Seriously, I think it is time the truth come out and they teach my theory of where we came from. An ancient race of from Martians fleeing a dying planet! Peace to you and your beliefs, just keep them out of my life please. Oh yeah, their are schools that teach creationism already, they are called Catholic schools. jmin |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:06pm on 11/23/04 at 12:00:44, jminmilwaukee wrote:
Where's the proof of the Big Bang? This is why Creation and evolution are called theories. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:10pm Morality and religion are not synonymous. You don't have to be a member of any religion to be a moral person. How pushing moral issues like not killing unborn babies got turned into someone forcing their religion on someone is amazing. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:13pm I suppose Creationism can be taught in public schools - just in theology class along with the rest of the fables. There's no science involved - simply beliefs that some may call silly. I don't because I don't want to impose my personal beliefs on anyone or marginalize theirs. I just don't want them in any mainstream curriculum that would otherwise conflict with real science. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:16pm From what I usually see, When ever someone tries to push anything that is in any way moral, it doesn't take long for people to call it the work of the religious right. I guarentee you that if you protested outside an abortion clinic today, literally every body who saw you there would label you a religious fanatic. You do have a point there though Bob. I have seen some very moral people who have nothing at all to do with religion and have seen some very im-moral people right in the comfort of my own Church. We have had to remove one associate pastor and one deacon in the last year because of adultry. Very sad. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:26pm Quote:
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Title: Exploding Post by Testy1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:29pm on 11/23/04 at 11:53:46, ExplodingEyeBall wrote:
Well, which creation myth would you like them to teach? There ARE a hell of a lot of them you know. Almost any pre-technological, pre-literate, pre-scientific-method culture you want to name has made something up about where people come from. No evidence, no critical questioning, nothing but received wisdom from an ancient version of Jerry Falwell. I personally favor the Maya creation myths if I had to pick one. Around a billion or so people like the ones mentioned in the Bhaghavad Gita. Are we going to force your creation myths (in public schools) on a bunch of others? The evidence for any of them is about zero. If we ARE going to teach things with no evidence to back them up then where does it stop? How about my own daughter? I don't want her to learn religious myths in a school paid for by my tax dollars. I don't want her taught that there is some bearded Arab up in the sky staring at her every move. She knows Arabs and other Middle Eastern people WAAAAY too well for that to be a comforting notion. Regards Jack |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:34pm Y'know, when was the last time you saw an abortion protester with their adopted crack baby standing along side? Abortion is a choice and a right, as your choice and right to protest. Where in the bible does it state that it is not ok to kill babies but it is ok to kill Iraqi babies? If you choose not to have an abortion that is your choice. Why not make a real difference and actually start adopting all of these unwanted children (and not just the white ones)? Man - politics and religion...should walked away from this one ;;D Peace - jmin |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:40pm I'm done here in this thread. It's turning into a bunch of garbage. I also believe I used the word theory not myth. Now, it seems like I'm getting the non religious stuff forced on me. Shame on you. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by karma on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:40pm Religions in general have been responsible for more deaths, wars and oppresion than is possible for the humane brain to understand. Keep it to yourself or in the church or in your home. Thats where it belongs and just fine with me. If it makes one feel better to believe go right ahead but that doesn't give anyone the right to judge or even have an opinion on what others beleive. Nor does it give anyone the right to force your religion or beliefs on me or anyone else. Your religion(whatever it is) is neither right nor wrong it is your belief period. You have the right to believe and practice your belief. Enjoy the freedom it is not universal. Living outside the continental U.S. for virtually all my life I see how others see the U.S. and believe me the U.S. is not seen as a christian nation. The U.S. is viewed as a bully and a country of wastefullness, sin and excess. I don't care what one believes or how they live there life as long as it is not harmful to others or its forced on me. |
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Title: jiminmilwaukee Post by Testy1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:41pm Actually, there is a section in the King James version about being blessed for smashing a baby's head on the rocks. It was some war between the prehistoric Israelis and the locals. The women were either killied or, if very young, taken as concubines. The men and boys were just killed. That is a very blood-soaked document that we're supposed to be living by. Regards Jack |
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Title: Explodingeyeball Post by Testy1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:44pm Yes, you did use the word theory and when you apply thatterm to evolution, it is correct. OTOH, when you use theory to describe creationism, young-earth or otherwise, "myth" is the correct term. A theory requires evidence, without evidence it is just a guess. Regards Jack |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:44pm I'm all for freedom of choice. To me it's just a matter of timing. I think that when the dude drops his pants and the girl spreads her legs, they've made their choice! |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Marc on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:47pm The last two sets of numbers I saw indicated that the "religious right" voters did not turn out in appreciably higher numbers for this election than they did for the last two elections. Same for the 19-29 year old group. Seems like this election was the voice of the average hard working, tax paying american. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:48pm I've said too much. I would like to apologize if I have offended anyone. Live and let live, Shalom and all that other stuff. Jmin _Really I am done this time 8) |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:49pm on 11/23/04 at 12:06:17, ExplodingEyeBall wrote:
Which "Creationism" should they teach? Hindu creationism, that holds that the universe is the result of the interplay of the Gods Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva? Native American ideals about creation, which may hold that this world was formed when a turtle from the lower world climbed up a branch to this level of the universe? Those are also 'theories' - why not teach them in biology class as well. Oh, I forgot, you want the government to establish your religion in the textbooks. There is a great deal of evidence for evolution. So much evidence that the theory of evolution is accepted by biologists. Enstein's Theory of Special Relativity is also a theory - one that has been repeatedly tested and found to conform to the universe. Newton's ideas on gravity are also theoretical, though they do let one calculate the acceleration of a body as it falls toward the center of the Earth. The fact Darwin's evolution is called a theory doesn't mean that it is equal to any cockamamy idea that someone whips up after misinterpreting the Bible. "Creation" (which you capitalized) is a religious doctrine. It should be termed American Fundamentalist Anti-Scientific Creationism, or something along those lines. It rejects the most basic tennet of science, the idea that answers should arise from evidence. Creationism starts out with the answer, and evidence is cherry picked to support that conclusion. Conflicting evidence is ignored or discredited, regardless of the scientific worth of the evidence. Fossils are merely tricks of the devil! Anything that shows that life existed for millions of years is Satanic!! The Earth must be flat - otherwise we would all fall off! Seriously, creationists are either whacked in a major way or merely ignorant. I have no problem with people who accept the Torah or the New Testament as a source of moral authority on how they should live their own lives. But there is no evidence that the Bible was meant as a science book. And Creationism reduces Christianity to superstitious idiocy - it is a back door attempt to establish a bizzare form of religion through control of what students are taught in public schools. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:53pm on 11/23/04 at 12:44:05, Bob P wrote:
Ahh, I see., It's black and white. Simple. Simple things are normally only practical for very simple people. You forgot about the girl that didn't choose to spread her legs. The one that was raped by her brother, uncle, father, neighbor.... Or the one that got the date rape pill and blanked out. There are LOTS of exceptions. ANd then there are the real sorry ones who actually don't know how they got pregnant - sex education deprived. Then there are those that have kids against their will and do a miserable job of raising kids they don't want. So, at least in my world, it's best to let people decide on their own destiny rather than impose one on them. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 12:56pm Quote:
Why Abortions Are Performed The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control. Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest; 1% because of fetal abnormalities; 3% due to the mother's health problems. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 1:04pm on 11/23/04 at 12:56:47, Bob P wrote:
No. I let the mother of the unborn child make that complicated life decision. She's the only one that's capable based on her belief system and life circumstances. She ultimately bears the burden. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 1:11pm on 11/23/04 at 12:49:57, floridian wrote:
Nice work. That has got to be the single most straightforward and articulate descriptions of creationism I've EVER seen. Outstanding and worthy of quotation. You made my day. I'm saving this post. |
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Title: Bob P Post by Testy1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 1:17pm I have to agree with you that the vast majority of abortions are nothing more than birth control. Personally, I find the procedure repugnant as hell. On the other hand, if the religious folks start running things we'll be right back where we were 50 years ago, with young, unmarried mothers forced to bear and support a baby when they are still children themselves. Regards Jack |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 1:24pm Quote:
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 1:29pm on 11/23/04 at 12:56:47, Bob P wrote:
So at least 5% of abortions are necessary or justifiable? Then why has the anti-abortion crowd consistently pushed laws that do not consider this 5%? And why is teen pregnancy and abortion are so much lower in countries where sex is not considered dirty and sex education is seen as a good idea? Among industrialized countries the US has the highest teen pregnancy rate, the highest teen abortion rate, and the highest rate of teen venereal diseases. If the US rate for teens with gonorrhea is 25 times higher than in Germany, maybe we should look at the German public health system and take a clue. The US problem isn't from a lack of "just say no" posters. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by sandie99 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 1:30pm I am sooooo looking forward to 2008... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 1:39pm on 11/23/04 at 13:24:33, Bob P wrote:
Sorry, don't know the particulars. I think the courts should help make that determination. I personally don't like abortions, but that's beside any point. But think about how we got here. When ALL abortions were performed by unlicensed abortionists in unsanitary conditions... Still had abortions, just the mothers' lives were also largely at risk. Think we should back there? It's guaranteed if the laws change. And what about Canada, Europe... They may need their abortion laws changed too, after all, the morality of abortion isn't limited by International borders. A mother of means could simply travel out of country to get an abortion. Where does that leave the poor? Close the borders or do ultrasounds on international travelers. Think this through. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 2:00pm The following is a list of useful abortion statistics as well as some facts on abortifacients. All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives. WORLDWIDE Number of abortions per year: Approximately 46 Million Number of abortions per day: Approximately 126,000 Where abortions occur: 78% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 22% occur in developed countries. Legality of abortion: About 26 million women obtain legal abortions each year, while an additional 20 million abortions are obtained in countries where it is restricted or prohibited by law. Abortion averages: Worldwide, the lifetime average is about 1 abortion per woman. © Copyright 1999-2000, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org) UNITED STATES Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996) Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700 Who's having abortions (age)? 52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%. Who's having abortions (race)? While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely. Who's having abortions (marital status)? 64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%. Who's having abortions (religion)? Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical". Who's having abortions (income)? Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%. Why women have abortions 1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient). At what gestational ages are abortions performed: 52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy. Likelihood of abortion: An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion. Abortion coverage: 48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So Sally gets drunkered up at a frat party and lays some leg on her boyfriend. A month later she's pregnant. She can: A. Kill the unborn baby. B. Take responsibilty for her actions. Have the baby and raise it or put it up for adoption. You pick the 'moral' answer. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 2:16pm I can't believe that you guys are still on this. HEY! EVERYONE....GET OVER YOUR BADSELVES. I agree with Joe. If you want to look another mans ass and say "I love that", Then more power to ya. IF you want to look at a broomstick and say, "I love ya" then more power to you. Don't bring it into my living room, and I won't bring my hetro-ism into your living room. As for the Pro Death, er, I mean Abortion people....You are the biggest bunch of fucking hyprocrites in history. Kill an innocent baby because you forgot to take your pill. BUT, when it comes to putting a convicted killer to death...OH NO! WE can't have that.... T Thinking the planet would be better off with half of the population removed...I get to decide what half... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bethany1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 2:37pm It's Pro-Choice, because it is a womans right to choose. Period. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 2:41pm Abortions have been going on since the beginning of time. Whether they will be done in a medically safe environment, or done in a back-alley coathanger shop, where women (as late as the mid-sixties) die or are injured so badly that they will never be able to have children, is the real issue. Personally, I really don't know whether I agree with abortion or not, and it's not my place to agree or disagree with it, as a male. I am glad that if women are going to make the choice to do it, that the procedure is available in a medically safe environment. |
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Title: Abortion Increasing under Bush Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 2:45pm Hmm - abortion was at a 24 year low when Clinton left office, now its rising again. Charlie may be right - the Republicans excite people about certain issues, but once the votes are counted, little is done. Of course, it would be awfully expensive and unpopular with the rich to try to reduce abortion or crime or drug use by lowering unemployment and making health care available. Even if those things are known to work on a societal basis. Instead, focus only on the individual - that way, all problems lie with THEM as bad apples, not with US as a society. Quote:
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Title: Re: Abortion Increasing under Bush Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:03pm on 11/23/04 at 14:45:06, floridian wrote:
Yeah, it's all us mean rich Republican's keeping the boot of oppresion on your necks...give me a break. Yeah, I'm all for higher crime, more drugs, higher abortion rates and unemployment. Where the fuck do you come up with this shit? http://www.ericisgreat.com/tinfoilhats/ for the latest in conspiricy wear. T |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:10pm It's okay, Tom. There are a couple of people with political views similar to Floridian's on the Jeep forums I frequent, as well. ::) Same old crap: Bush is evil, the Republicans are evil, the rich are evil, and people on welfare, on drugs, or in prison are all just helpless, innocent victims who would have been model citizens if Clinton was still in the White House. ::) |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by karma on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:11pm Hmmmm I wonder if these stats are from the census bureaus questionairs that no one wants to fill out correctly. mhop, no one can decide if an abortion is right accept the one that needs to make the decision. Anyone that has had to experience the trauma that the women has to go through will know what I mean. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by nani on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:16pm Quote:
I seriously doubt that anyone would consider themselves "pro-abortion". Quote:
Quote:
BTW: I am a latina who had 2 babies in my teens. Abortion was an option then and I chose to have the babies. Whether they were any better off for that remains to be seen. At least I got to choose, and live with my choices. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:27pm on 11/23/04 at 15:10:54, Jeepgun wrote:
I hear ya, Frank. If you keep rolling your eyes like that, they are going to fall out of your head one day...I'm in the same boat you are. Heaven forbid someone make something of themselves, without government assistance...Oh wait...I said Heaven and Government in the same sentance. Am I going to be called out on that, now? Give me a break, people. T |
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Title: Re: This whole thread sucks! Post by BobG on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:45pm [smiley=sleep.gif] [smiley=snore.gif] |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:46pm on 11/23/04 at 15:10:54, Jeepgun wrote:
The tweak on Bush was just to trigger a knee jerk reaction from y'all. But your wrong in categorizing me, Frank. I'm not saying that its only the system holding people down, or that its only the stupid, weak, greedy individual. Social problems are complex, and simplistic solutions are bound to fail. But if you compare countries, if you look at history, there are definite patterns. When the minimum wage doesn't keep pace with inflation, people suffer economically and the temptation to steal becomes a lot stronger. It doesn't mean stealing is right, just that more people are likely to do it, regardless of what moralists think about stealing. The same with abortion, which is not a crime, but many people want to reduce for various reasons. Apart from prohibiting it (which is not a good idea IMHO), there are ways of reducing it greatly with social policy, without restricting any one's freedom. Unfortunately, those policies require that lots of people benefit a little, or that those with the least benefit the most... and if the wealthiest don't get the biggest tax cut (or whatever benefit), then they cry about the evil socialists. The thing is ... the policies that the Bishops were promoting wouldn't just reduce crime, or reduce abortion. It would improve our society. How many people on this BBS lack health insurance? How many are living paycheck to paycheck through no fault of their own? How many here would make the supreme sacrifice for their country? And how many would agree to higher taxes if it extended health care or reduced abortion or crime? I thought so. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Donna_D. on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:59pm I think you all should go back to talking about Women's Breasts... At least if your blood pressure is going to get up, it would be for a good reason... Politics suck. DD |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 3:59pm I hear ya', Floridian. (And actually, you're a lot nicer and even-tempered than some of the folks on the Jeep boards. I appreciate that!) I agree with what you've written above. The problem is, we're already so over-taxed. Our forefathers fought the Revolutionary War over a significantly lower percentage of taxation. As I see it, what really needs to happen is that the lobbyists need to keep their noses out of government and all of these pet projects need to be shelved. The government then needs to re-address their priorities and put health care, the military, minimum wage, and these other beneficial programs at the top of the list. Then they will have plenty of money, all without increasing taxes, and actually have a shot at a truly balanced budget. If a government can/will truly do that, they would have my vote in a heartbeat, but I fear that we are so very far down the path of expected entitlements and "Me-ism," that we won't see this happen within our lifetimes. As for being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice: I am a combat veteran and right now, I wish I were in Iraq again, or Afghanistan. It really bugs me that I'm not and that I can't be. *sigh* |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:00pm You're all going to hell!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Donna_D. on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:06pm on 11/23/04 at 16:00:19, Bob P wrote:
Of course I am...I'm Baptist!! DD |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jonny on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:06pm on 11/23/04 at 16:00:19, Bob P wrote:
I was going to post a simple "Yawn" until I saw the above. ROTFFLMMFAO!!!!!!! ;;D |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:07pm Tom, I'm assuming by your presence on this board that you're a CH sufferer... I tend to dislike government funded medical care. I've lived in Canada and saw the system go through its early decline. Less choices, more waiting and eventually rationing. My father still lives there and was forced to come to the USA for a hip replacement after many years of waiting for a chance. Seemed to me that his docs were delaying - waiting for him to die so he wouldn't consume the valuable scarce medical resources. He got the surgery in less than a month after seeing a practitioner in the USA. It may have been too little too late as he had gone so long in pain that he stopped using his limbs so recovery is barely possible. My point though is there's got to be some common ground whereby those afflicted, like us, can get treatment before going over the edge. I don't know what I'd do without trex and prompt dr visits so I feel for those without medical care - obviously not just those with CHs. I also don't want to see my care diminish in quality and I fear that the government will find a way to screw it all up by blaming each other. I don't know why everything gets reduced to dems vs reps and the silly notion morality gets aligned with one of the sides. Thoughtful people should be able to find a way through effective government to help those in need. I assume you will agree that there are those in need... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:07pm Hell? Well of course I am! I am the Devil. [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=sgrin.gif] [smiley=headbanger.gif] |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:10pm on 11/23/04 at 16:00:19, Bob P wrote:
Why do you think we are all going to hell, Bob? Did you know any one from hell? Did your father talk to you about hell? Do you often think about hell? "That was my original intention." http://alice.pandorabots.com/ |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by BobG on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:11pm on 11/23/04 at 16:00:19, Bob P wrote:
No I'm not. I'm going to live forever. In Vegas! ;;D And this thread still sucks. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Ruth on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:12pm I am thinking you shouldn't say we are all going to Hell. Who knows, maybe we are already in Hell, feels like it sometimes to me. I am thinking it is time to lighten up a wee bit. Ruth |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by john_d on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:22pm on 11/23/04 at 16:00:19, Bob P wrote:
You think they will let me make 'smores' as long as I'm stuck there? Could hell possibly be worse than a CH? hmmmmm... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:23pm on 11/23/04 at 16:10:55, floridian wrote:
The AI didn't know how to respond to, "I poop a lot. It makes me tired." [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by john_d on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:29pm I don't think the we have to worry about computers outsmarting us if they don't get smarter than that..... Quote:
what she said? |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jeepgun on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:34pm Is ALICE from Jamaica? ;;D 8) "She no love I, mon!" [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Donna_D. on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:34pm on 11/23/04 at 16:11:31, BobG wrote:
Wasn't immortality invented in Vegas? Oh, wait... it was IMMORALITY that was invented there... DD |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:34pm on 11/23/04 at 16:11:31, BobG wrote:
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/95/pics/95ispartans.jpg So give us a perfect cheer, Bob 8) |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by BobG on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:42pm on 11/23/04 at 16:34:26, Donna_D. wrote:
You bet they both were! And we ain't sharing them with nobody. >:( And this is a secret so don't tell anyone............ Did you know churches were invented in Vegas? Fact: there are more churches in Las Vegas (percentage/population wise) than any other city of it's size in the United States. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by john_d on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:49pm Are they including those cheezy wedding chapels? ::) |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:52pm on 11/23/04 at 16:49:14, john_d wrote:
LOL. My brother got married in one of those. He then promptly turned around and got divorced 2 weeks later - almost. It took 6 months of waiting through a CA state reconciliation period before his divorce was finalized. The government helping us out. Imagine that. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 4:56pm on 11/23/04 at 16:07:48, marlin wrote:
Yeah, I'm a sufferer, isn't that a given? Are there those in need...probably. I don't agree with Floridian that we need to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is just that...the minimum. The entry level. People work their way up from that based on their abilities. Why don't we just give everyone in the fawking country a million dollars when they are born? Be done with it, you get nothing else. It would be cheaper in the long run and gives you the control over your own destiny. Oh wait...[whinny voice on] Some people will waste the money on drugs or booze or gambling[whinny voice off]...Yeah, you're right. And you know what I have to say about that...FUCK THEM. You can't cure the world of idiots. Don't ask what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you...America...quickly becoming the land of the free hand out. T |
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Title: onward cristian soldiers Post by rumplestiltskin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:18pm My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited. -Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922 In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger.... I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty.... If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths.... Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937 and now it's the George and Jesus show. den |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:24pm Oh my fucking god...you have to be kidding me...You are going to try to equate Bush and Hitler? Isn't that a stretch even for the most lib of you all? I can't believe that you guys really believe this shit. It slays me that you guys have so much hatered for this man. I never saw this kind of hatered for any Dem President, not even Clinton. You really need to seek professional help. T |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:34pm I wondered when the abortion thing would show up. Here's a take on abortion that does not come from some self-promoting "institute" or column. It's mine: If you think we have a lot of late term abortions now, just make it illegal. Dumpsters will be full of sloppily, quietly aborted developed babies. There will be significantly more abandoned children. Having no choice in the matter, there will be large increases in child abuse, sodomy, illness, malnutrition, and countless broken homes because of imprisoned parents having to send their other kids to live with perhaps inept or even cruel put out relatives and tired grandparents. This will create a climate for crime, hopelessness, and will add to the list of poorly educated and unemployable people. It will be another strain on our already overburdened legal system and cost you tax cutters a fortune. Things would make a little more sense if these zealots would assume the burden of raising these children and paying for their care and education for 18 or more years. This never seems to be part of the mix. Today, thanks to endless rhetoric, everybody knows about abortion. That wasn't so true before. It's now a known entity to everybody and not from clinics, it's mostly anti-abortionists that have made it something to consider for so many more. One needs to weigh the effects of such legislation. It will be the cause great pain and misery for children, parents, relatives, hospitals, doctors, and society as a whole. It will destroy more than it saves. Mostly children. Charlie |
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Title: Re: onward cristian soldiers Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:38pm on 11/23/04 at 17:18:12, rumplestiltskin wrote:
Den, I think you're reaching a little here. charlie's got it right. The republicans used the religion card like a rented mule. When it's sufficiently convenient the mule will be returned a little sore and tired but spared for possibly another turn. Don't expect anything radical out of dubya. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:38pm Let me qualify my previous statement: You're all going to hell with Den and Charlie and the rest of the Liberals!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: onward cristian soldiers Post by Jonny on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:41pm on 11/23/04 at 17:38:02, marlin wrote:
HEY!, you leave me the fuck out of this! LMAO again, Bob ;;D |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by BobG on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:41pm on 11/23/04 at 16:49:14, john_d wrote:
Nope. Cheezy? I think it is spelled sleazy. |
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Title: This is a sucky string. Post by BobG on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:46pm Quote:
Yeah............. like start a wrong war, in a wrong place, for a wrong reason, at the wrong time. Dubya wouldn't do that. LIKE HELL HE WOULDN"T! Hi Boob. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 5:46pm Quote:
Neither have I. Easy to understand though. The lying, selfish bastard in the White House behaves like a spoiled child. By the way, thanks Den. You have more guts than I. I've always been afraid to do it. You see kids; nothing is new but it can be uncomfortable. Watching Bush supporters shred a war hero into a war criminal was uncomfortable too. Charile |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:00pm on 11/23/04 at 17:46:47, Charlie wrote:
I'm friends with 3 VN vets. None of them felt positively about the conflict for all the obvious reasons. But all of them despised Kerry for speaking out publically against those that fought, many against their own personal convictions. That's the reason I voted for dubya (took a shower after I came back from the polls to wash the crusty feelings off). I didn't want to see a possible international appeal for forgiveness to France, Germany and the Arab world from a president Kerry... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bethany1 on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:04pm Oh ok, so its better to vote for a guy that dodges the draft... hmmm that makes sense to me!!!! |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:09pm Lots of soldiers in the middle east right now. No need to make them feel unappreciated. We already got that from Kerry once. The dems let me down by nominating Kerry. There were only 2 choices and I picked on 1 issue I felt made the most sense to me at the time. 2006 is less tha 2 years away. If you think about it your vote actually counts more if you vote in the mid-term elections - less turnout. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:19pm I didn't love Kerry but I have never hated a President until now. All I needed was his appointment of John Ashcroft to see how little he cares for The Bill of Rights and his lack of interest in you and me. Easy choice. By appointing an incompetent like Condolezza Rice to the highest cabinet position, shows that he never learns. Charlie |
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Title: imMoral high ground Post by rumplestiltskin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:20pm You bet your soul you can't stomach genocide for Jesus. Tell yourself it's anything...anything but that. I'm crazy...uninformed...deluded... You know He is on your side. Comfortable? Righteous? Saved? There now ....that's better..... Sweet dreams. love den |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:25pm Scare the shit out of people and blame it on those who try to make the world a better place. Praise a god or two. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Bob P on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:34pm Kerry is a fucking traitor! He's lucky the guys in his Coastal Division didn't frag his ass, they hated him so much. War hero my ass!!!!!!!!! Hi Bob. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Mark C on Nov 23rd, 2004, 6:35pm Guess yall's head ain't hurtin' too bad......good ;;D http://www.thorninpaw.com/u/htdocs/thorni/images/Dr.%20Strangelove.jpg Mark-who-is-for-taking-over-the-whole world! |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by john_d on Nov 23rd, 2004, 7:06pm on 11/23/04 at 17:46:02, BobG wrote:
on 11/23/04 at 18:34:26, Bob P wrote:
You gotta love guys like this, argue like hell-fire but stop for a polite hello. lol ;;D |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 7:13pm Trying to catch up here. I'll give it a whirl: Quote:
They were anything BUT bible thumpers. What we know of as the church and state issue was to protect the government from religion. We are on shaky ground at the moment. James Madison had a lot to do with this idea. It is not in the Constitution. Like gay marriage, it shouldn't have to be. Quote:
Oh goody. If you like being treated as six-year olds, like censorship, 13th century science, and bingo everywhere. Quote:
England was delighted to see these boring religious fanatics head across the Atlantic, 3,000 miles away. Quote:
Sorry. It doesn't bother me if you pray in school, use it in the pledge, or post the commandments. All I ask it that I don't have to trip over it. Ten Commandments has some good shit too....some of it damn silly but hey.....sticking it on a wall hurts nobody. Wasting time trying to kill school prayer is pretty stupid but nowhere near as idiotic as dumbing down textbooks and telling kids that the earth is only a few thousand years old. We are becoming a laughingstock. It would be fun to see the result of bringing up creation 'science" and "intelligent design" as sound academic courses to Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Quote:
You just vote for people in a party that has a new Senator from Oklahoma that said that there is a school in Oklahoma that has "rampant lesbianism." Quote:
Fortunatley, this is not true. Despite the noise from a few Jesus jolly types, the government is comprised of pretty much the same percentage of religious nuts as 50 years ago. Quote:
It's the religious right such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell that blamed the WTC disaster on the wrath of god because liberals supposedly "believe" in abortion. Quote:
You have to wonder why..... ::) Quote:
It's always a "Conspiracy" or as you so politely say: "shit," if it doesn't agree with you. One thing about liberals is that they usually agree that it's okay to be a conservative so long as you don't go nuts. What passes for neo conservative rhetoric today is that anyone who may have another opinion is insane, a traitor or going to hell. Democrats need a Karl Rove I guess. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 7:15pm on 11/23/04 at 16:56:09, Tom K wrote:
Raising the minimum wage will also raise the wages of people who make more than the minimum wage - a rising tide lifts many boats. There is an escalator effect that would benefit millions who currently make $6-10 per hour, although this effect diminishes at the higher end. Henry Ford figured it out - you can't develop a market if all the workers are paid shit. Given that consumer spending now accounts for more of the economy than it did in the 1920s, it should be clear that the economy will suffer if real wages decline. The fact that they do so when productivity and profits are on the rise is a sign that the system ain't quite working right. Quote:
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 7:43pm on 11/23/04 at 19:15:34, floridian wrote:
Which leads to higher inflation...which you and Charlie and Den will bitch about even louder. What would be a "fair" minimum wage, in your eyes? $10/hr? $12? When does it end? Are you really ready to pay the kid who works at the McD's $12/hr? Devalue the dollar is what will happen. Prices will go through the roof, and you guys will bitch even louder. BTW, Den...don't go throwing me under the religion bus. I am probably one of the very few Republican who could care less about religion. Charlie, since when did any lib agree that it is ok to be Conservitive? That's a new one on me. When, look through the back posts, have I once called you a traitor, said that you were going insane or going to hell? Didn't think so. Actually, the first time I posted the conspiricy thing, we got a good laugh out of it...Do you need to talk to your doctor about Viagra, again? Lighten up... T |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 7:57pm Addressing the minimum wage by raising it isn't likely to solve very much. In fact it might backfire on the people it's intended to help as they may be more likely to just stay with it rather than trying to improve their employability. The problem is those in the middle that make too much $$$$ to get heath care assistance and don't get any at work. They fall through the cracks. We need to do a much better job of encouraging employers to cover their their employees with health insurance by using tax credits etc. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 8:01pm Don't go off the deep end. I was thinking of Ann Coulter, who must leave a bad taste in the mouths of many conservatives. One of her books is entitled "Treason." I have posted many times that I think it's okay to be a conservative, but it's not ok to be nuts. By this, I mean the lunatics that drove me out of the Republican Party in 1982. All the pandering to the Moral Majority and getting in bed with a larcenous shit like Jerry Falwell made me see the light. Like Bill Maher said: 'I used to like Republicans. They were the mean old men who watched my money." Not true today and now they camp out in my bedroom and want to tell me what I should see on TV while spending money we don't have. I miss the Howard Bakers and Alan Simpsons. Nixon was pretty clever with the left. He gave in on lots of domestic stuff and concentrated on the rest of the world. What a character. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by john_d on Nov 23rd, 2004, 8:06pm on 11/23/04 at 20:01:25, Charlie wrote:
She is just a nut. According to her all democrats are traitors, and she says it like she believes it. I can't stand her and I am a 'publican. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 8:18pm on 11/23/04 at 19:43:50, Tom K wrote:
Hah! Real wages are going down (increasing less than inflation) - and the response is: if we paid you more, it would cause inflation, so you would be worse off! So your wages should decline for your own sake! That's a good one, Tom. No, I don't think the kids at McDs should make $12. I do think that the lower half of all wage earners should be able to live off of their salary - if only at or slightly above the poverty level. Inflation is already above wage increases, due to commodity costs (oil, food), health care and education costs. The coming inflation will be from currency devaluations - caused by too much debt, too large a trade imbalance. But hey, devaluation of your dollar denominated assets and inflation is less painful than a tax increase or balanced budget, isn't it? |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 8:23pm The young man living below the poverty line can always get a gun. Sure a ton of the money gets poured down a hole but one or two of them aren't going to rob or kill the old lady behind the counter. It's worth it to me to pay a little to avoid this. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Donna_D. on Nov 23rd, 2004, 8:58pm http://politics-suck.com/republicanssuck.jpg http://politics-suck.com/democratssuck.jpg ...and just so you don't forget.... Don sucks too..... ;;D DD |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:01pm on 11/23/04 at 20:18:17, floridian wrote:
Where in the hell are you seeing me say lower the minimum wage? I'd really like for you to point this out. I'm saying keep it where it is at. The minimum wage isn't for someone to live off of. It never was. It is a starting point. How many times do you have to hear it to get it into your head? Do I want a tax increase? Hell no. I already get 33% taken out of my check every 2 weeks. How bout you? You looking to get more taken out? How's this one. What happened to the refunded tax check we all got from the government? Did you spend it or send it back? Get a grip...maybe YOU should talk to your doctor about Viagra... T |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:07pm IRS told me not to send a return. Wish I had some income to pay taxes on rather that being the blood-sucking goof that I am. 8) I made $2 an hour once. Good thing Sally had a nurse's income too. Thems was the days. I weighed 190 pounds, drank gallons of beer, smoked liked mad and lived on one meal a day. Never felt better. Soooo long ago. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by marlin on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:15pm charlie, you're a fucking hoot. Are you going to DAVCON. I could use a few laughs. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:22pm Buffalo to Iowa in what? January? Yikes. If I were closer or had a lot money. Transportation is a big problem. Nope, sorry, I'll have to wait until the blast furnace in Dallas in July or whenever. Yikes again. Hope you'll have a good time. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Mr. Happy on Nov 23rd, 2004, 9:34pm Wowsers, what a thread. There's enough quotable material in here to choke a water buffalo. Not to mention side taking, belief stomping, and innuendo out the ass. Only a few short years ago, I learned the beauty of O2 from here, and now.... Politics. Diversity filled with animosity. God. Abortion. Minimum wage. The tits thread was easier on the eyes, but this is still WELL worth the price of admission. You people are driving me crazy. All of you, RJ |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:16pm on 11/23/04 at 21:34:44, Mr. Happy wrote:
Then my job here is done.... T |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by nani on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:18pm Just shows to go ya RJ...you give some peoples some wood and nails and a hammer...and the first thing they does is build themselfs a soapbox. ;;D |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:19pm Others build themselves a cross.....that is to be taken how ever you want...by who ever wants to... T |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Kevin_M on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:31pm Quote:
I apologize for having to comment on this thread, however regarding much reading, I wish to make reference to some thoughts that have been written to clarify matters, and I find above quote to point toward truth. "Where Darwin Meets the Bible" creationists and evolutionists in America. Larry A Witham 231.7652W Evolution the remarkable history of a scientific theory Edward J. Larson 576.8L If I were to list the books familiarized about applications of Einstein's theories (1905, special and 1915, general relativity) and what is now known about the history of the universe (including Einstein's cosmological constant term, Lambda), and alternatively (quantum) physics, the attempts at meshing of both by string and loop theory and the perhaps speculation of Joao Magueijo, also just mentioning alone what has been soberly written about the atom "hydrogen", my concept of God would have a narrower meaning than what I care to have taught to me, though yet I still have experienced and seen what seems to be a "hand" in certain matters of human striving. With respect to all. I lay my fate in Ueli's hands Kevin M |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Jimi on Nov 23rd, 2004, 10:54pm I've got a headache...................... |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by floridian on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:07pm on 11/23/04 at 21:01:49, Tom K wrote:
Keeping the minimum wage (or anyone's wages) level is the same as cutting it over time. Making $10/hour now is $10. With inflation, $10 next year is like getting $9.80 or $9.60 (2% or %4 cut or whatever inflation is at). Are you saying you want to keep it where it is in constant dollars, or absolute dollars ($5.15)?? Although the minimum wage has risen several times since 1979, its value in constant dollars has dropped 29% in that same period. And since many jobs are pegged to the minimum wage, this doesn't just affect the acne faced kids at McDonalds - it affects people in Peoria who work in factories or offices. By one estimate, 40% of Americans work in 'entry level' jobs, and they would benefit from 1) raising the minimum wage and 2) indexing it to inflation. |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Tom K on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:24pm on 11/23/04 at 23:07:28, floridian wrote:
No shit! REALLY? I never knew....I don't employ people or anything. Nah. Don't know anything about it. Have never worked for it myself, you see. Us Rich Republicans get our money off of special trees. The leaves are money. You Dems don't get to go there because we are all mean, evil and hate filled...WE pride ourselves in keeping all of you down. T Hi, I'm sarcism, have we met? |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by Charlie on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:35pm http://www.netsync.net/users/charlies/gifs/noose.gif Charlie |
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Title: Re: Moral high ground Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 23rd, 2004, 11:43pm Quote:
Why you gotta drag Joe Dimagio into this?!? BTW-all your mommas wear combat boots! (SNL - Early years) Let it go folks. Lets all agree to disagree and support each other. Hell, Svenn cried out today and all we could do was hurl stones at each other. P.S. - Clusterbusters Rock! 8) jmin |
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