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        New Message Board Archives >> 2004 Posts >> Why oh why.....
        
(Message started by: Melissa on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 6:32am)

Title: Why oh why.....
Post by Melissa on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 6:32am

I just don't understand it. :( This is supposed to be a happy time of year for hunters... :'(

Quote:

5 Killed, 3 Hurt in Wis. Hunting Dispute

35 minutes ago U.S. National - AP

By JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press Writer

BIRCHWOOD, Wis. - A deer hunter shot and killed five people and injured three others in northwestern Wisconsin following a dispute about a tree stand during the hunt's opening weekend, authorities said.

AP Photo

The 36-year-old alleged gunman, who lives in the Minneapolis area, was arrested Sunday afternoon, Sawyer County sheriff's officials said. Jake Hodgkinson, a deputy at the county jail, identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no additional details.

The incident began when two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed.

It's not known who shot first, Zeigle said.

Both hunters were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Other hunters responded and were shot. About 20 shots were fired, but it's unclear who shot them, he said.

The dead included four males — including a teenage boy — and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.

All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area in southwestern Sawyer County, he said. Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.

"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.

Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Two young people who stayed in the cabin emerged safely after the shootings.

The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two hunters, not knowing about the shootings, helped him find his way out, Zeigle said. When he emerged, a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back, given to police by a victim, Zeigle said.

The man was out of bullets and was arrested, Zeigle said.

One of the injured hunters was in critical condition at St. Joseph's Hospital. Another was listed in serious condition and the third was in fair condition, both at Lakeview Medical Center.

Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters. After they got word of the shooting, he and others went to round up the rest of the party. He said they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and noticed the surrounding roads blocked off.

"When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," he said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."

It took about three hours to round up the other hunters, who were up to four miles apart, Wagner said. "We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=5&u=/ap/20041122/ap_on_re_us/hunters_shot

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Svenn on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 6:39am

It was on the new here in Norway too Mel.

This is so sad :'( :'(

Svenn

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by nani on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 8:04am

Something that always scares me about hunters is how much liquor they consume on a hunt. I once stood behind a guy who had enough liquor to stock a small bar at the grocery store. The cashier asked what he was going to do with it and he replied I'm going elk hunting. She said she wished she was going with them. I had to comment that you would never find me anywhere near anyone who had that much liquor AND a GUN. :-/

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 9:22am

Our local news had stated that this was done with an automatic assult weapon. One must wonder if the carnage would have been so great if these types of weapons were not avail to the general public.

I know, I know....the constitution gaurentees the right to keep and bare arms and I know the hard core NRA people believe we should have these types of weapons to "defend" our rights.

Just a damn shame, thats all. Hell, not a week goes by here in Milwaukee that we don't hear of at least one hand gun death.

Thanks to the Bush administration we can all go out and get our Uzies now.

jmin

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Melissa on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 9:30am

on 11/22/04 at 09:22:14, jminmilwaukee wrote:

An SKS 7.62 caliber semi-automatic is a common hunting weapon. It doesn't fire off rounds fast, there is about a 2-3 second delay between shots. We have one here at home. Anyway, in my opinion, the person firing the weapon is more dangerous than the gun itself. You never know, that guy could have would up killing some people with his vehicle just as well with a gun due to his hostility. :-/

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Big Dan on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 9:38am

on 11/22/04 at 09:22:14, jminmilwaukee wrote:

Thanks to the Bush administration we can all go out and get our Uzies now.

jmin

Read the Assault Weapons Ban, what it banned, and why they were banned before going all Uber-Partisan. Then get back with me.

-Big Dan

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by M.R. on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 9:41am

Points of reference to keep in mind

1. The gun used is a SEMI- automatic. It has the same basic action that my 30.06 has which never been on a gun ban list (at least not yet).

2.) Contrary to the news report (imagine that), an SKS is not a common hunting gun. It's a gun some pscyo from the city would bring into the woods.

3. Uzies are still illegal and have been for a long time. Bush has not changed that nor has he or any one from the NRA attempted to.

In MYHO this person was NOT a hunter, but just a sick bastard that made his way into the woods. I feel bad for those people whose lifes he ruined and for the sport of hunting that has (for some of us) been a great family tradition for years.

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Rock_Lobster on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 9:44am

What Mel said, kinda.

An SKS is a 'semi automatic' weapon. It will fire once per pull of the trigger, as fast as you can pull the trigger. That said, the victims were taken down as the ran headlong into the shooters field of fire... slowly. This had little to do with how fast one can shoot.

It has an integral 10-round magazine, unlike the detachable magazines one sees on an M16 or AK47.

Example of how the rounds are loaded into an SKS...
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/sks_load.jpg

But just out of curiousity jmin, exactly what can you purchase now that you could not purchase during the 'Assault Weapons Ban'? Yes... this is a test.

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 9:44am

Semi auto...gotcha. I was not clear on what kind of auto he had used. I did not intend on getting into a gun debate as I respect the opinions of those who choose to exercise their rights (kinda like abortion).

I do agree with the person behind the gun though. Butter knife or Nuke, someone bent on killing will find a way to do it regardless of the weapon.

Still, damn shame none the less.

Peace - jmin

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Magman on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 9:48am

Deeply saddened by such an event.

Hunting in WI during this week of Thanksgiving was the highpoint of the year for 20+ years. In all those years, there was only one instance where I had a firearm pointed at me....I crossed a fence line into private property without knowing and the owner wasn't happy.

The nine day WI season was always one of solitude for me. Whether in Northern or Central WI, the snow was usually plentyful, the air crisp and fresh. A time and place for not only hunting, but reflection.

May those that lost their lives rest in peace. To the families of the victims, I can only offer a silent prayer.

Peace to all,
-dan

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 9:58am

Damn... Do they have the death penalty up there, Melissa?

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Rock_Lobster on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 10:02am

In typical hunting instances, people who feel that their 'spot' has been infringed upon will talk all kinds of shit, especially if they outnumber the 'offender'.

They got nasty with an armed man, a man they did not know from Adam. It appears as though they were so cocky, they didn't sense mortal danger when confronting him.

I hear hunters telling 'Get the phuck out of my spot!' stories all the time, and wonder what is going on inside their heads.

One might see the shooters point of view... weapons pointed at him, then a half-dozen other armed folk chasing him up the mountain. Not defending him... just not that difficult to imagine a defensive situation.

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 10:09am

Quote:

Damn... Do they have the death penalty up there, Melissa?

Athough I am not Milissa, I can tell you that Wisconsin does not have the death penalty. These things do have a way of "working" themselves out in prison though

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Melissa on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 10:19am

on 11/22/04 at 09:58:26, Jeepgun wrote:

Damn... Do they have the death penalty up there, Melissa?

No, I believe we do not. Which is yet another thing that pisses me off. >:( But that's for another thread...

I don't know what has gotten into me today, but I am a bitch.

:-/mel

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Melissa on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 10:21am

on 11/22/04 at 10:09:28, jminmilwaukee wrote:

These things do have a way of "working" themselves out in prison though

Oh, ain't that the truth though?? Our prisoners make up for the death penalty... Not sure if that's a good thing or not. :-/

:)mel

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Tom K on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 11:10am

If the death penalty doesn't work, which is debatable, then make them do time like it used to be. 23 hours in your cell, no cable tv, 1 hour to shower and exercise and that's that. Build prisons underground. Would solve a lot of problems. If prison wasn't better than some have it on the outside, they wouldn't want to go. Make big rocks into little rocks, into gravel, mix it to make concrete and start all over.

As for hunters drinking. Broad statements about how much hunters drink is way out of line. I have hunted for 21 years and have been shooting for 30 years. NOT once have I been drinking while shooting, hunting or anything dealing with my firearms, and I know I'm not in the minority! I grew up in a house that had 5 loaded firearms in it at any given time. I never once thought about going out and shooting anyone. If these people who go off the deep end didn't use a firearm, they would use anything at their disposal. Should we make cars illegal because of all the people killed with them? I don't see anyone wanting to sue the big 3 automakers because their vehicles are used in murders. Hell, they didn't even get sued when people's kids were getting thier heads ripped off because of air bags going off.

T

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by nani on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 11:30am

Quote:

and I know I'm not in the minority!

99% of the hunters I know bring a whole lot of booze with them when they hunt. But, then again, I live in NM...

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by sandie99 on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 11:36am

Hunting is dangerous... Glad that nothing like that ever happened when my dad was hunting... So sad.

PFdays,
sandie99

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Racer1_NC on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 11:40am

My father was a hunter until his age caught up with him. I never had much of an interest in it, much to his disappointment. I did go a few times, and was trained at an early age in gun safety. No one ever drank in his group.

Most hunters I know today, will not drink on a hunt and will not hunt around anyone that does. Guns and alcohol do not mix. Never have, never will.

Sad state of affairs when people can not hunt without some nut going crazy....

Bill

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Tom K on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 11:41am

on 11/22/04 at 11:30:52, nani wrote:

99% of the hunters I know bring a whole lot of booze with them when they hunt. But, then again, I live in NM...

So....100% of hunters that I know have never shot anyone...so this must be a bullshit story.

T

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Rock_Lobster on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 11:45am

on 11/22/04 at 11:30:52, nani wrote:

99% of the hunters I know bring a whole lot of booze with them when they hunt. But, then again, I live in NM...

Only in hunting-camp situations in my experience, which this was. After the days hunt, drinking in the cabin is the plan. And at least 6 people came from the cabin.

How would one react to an armed inturder in their back yard? Call the police.
How do many hunters react to armed intruders on their land? In a minority of cases (but enough to be called 'frequently'), they play John Wayne... 'Get a move on before I fill you full of lead'. Risky... or in this case a life-ending mistake. Level your weapon at one only if you intend to use it.

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by nani on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 12:07pm

Quote:

So....100% of hunters that I know have never shot anyone...so this must be a bullshit story.

[smiley=huh.gif] [smiley=huh.gif]
I never said that alcohol was why that idiot did that...I said it scares me to have drunk people runnin' around with any kind of firearm. Tom, sometimes I think you just want to pick a fight with me. :-/

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Tom K on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 12:12pm

Nah, Don't want to pick a fight. I get really pissed off when people paint us hunters and shooting sports people with a broad brush, putting the worlds idiots on our shoulders. This moron could have snapped when he was at work, stabbing people with a fountain pen, then we would have them being thrown under the bus. It seems like people find it easier to throw firearms under the bus then to look at the idiots themselves.

T

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Charlie on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 6:45pm

I did read a bit of this this morning....happy Thanksgiving huh? Pretty sad. Normally, hunters and NRA types are the ones you can trust with guns. They were arguing over a tree stand or something, I think. Almost every year some hunter gets shot accidentally around my little town, but this....Horrible.

While I'm not one that thinks semi-autos are cool for hunting, they're all over for all kinds of good and bad reasons. Having one just because you can, isn't my idea of a good reason though.

I don't hunt nor do I have any business buying a lot of guns. I don't recommend epileptics collecting firearms. I have a few from days gone by though. I grew up with guns all over the place. Fortunately, no one got hurt. Even my grandmother had a .32 in her drawer.

Crazy Swedes.

Charlie

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by BlueMeanie on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 6:54pm

I don't think hunting or drinking had much to do with this tragedy. The guy obviously already had a gun weather he was hunting or not. Unfortunately, the idiot would have probably killed someone with road rage or anything else that pissed him off sooner or later. Sad...... very sad. :(

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Charlie on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 7:40pm

[quotethe idiot would have probably killed someone with road rage or anything else that pissed him off sooner or later.][/quote]You're not the only one with this kind of analogy. I understand it but it's not the same thing.

Guns are here, guns are dangerous, guns are fun. Nothing is new.

Charlie

Title: Re: Why oh why.....
Post by Rock_Lobster on Nov 22^nd, 2004, 8:05pm

Yep. And one idiot misusing his rifle will have no bearing on my possession of such implements.

http://img93.exs.cx/img93/7236/huntingrifle_s.jpg