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(Message started by: karma on Nov 3rd, 2004, 8:11am)
Title: And the winner is!
Post by karma on Nov 3rd, 2004, 8:11am
Democracy
and the right to speak, vote, absatin or protest w/o fear of reprisals.
This is worth fighting for!
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Pegase on Nov 3rd, 2004, 8:43am
Democracy is always a WINNER.... Congrats to the winners... ;)
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Melissa on Nov 3rd, 2004, 8:58am
I must say, each and every time I leave from voting, I can't help but feel a huge sense of gratitude for those who died to give me that privilage.  It makes my eyes tear up every time.  Heck, even when NOT voting I feel it just by the freedoms we enjoy every day.  I love Democracy!!!   :D
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by TomM on Nov 3rd, 2004, 9:04am
You may not like the outcome but ya gotta love the freedom to partake in the process.
TomM
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 3rd, 2004, 10:37am
Looks like G.W. may actually win his first presidential election.

Gotta love the right to vote but the process sure could use an overhaul.

Kerry supporter here who will support the peoples choice regardless.

jmin
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Melissa on Nov 3rd, 2004, 11:09am
Well, seems that Kerry has called Bush to concede Ohio and the Presidency.  Looks like Bush is the new, re-elected President of the United States.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 11:44am
Congratulations to the winners. May the tone of this next four years be one of bipartisan cooperation, and may the extreme polarization and bitterness among our people be healed.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by don on Nov 3rd, 2004, 11:46am
People waited in line 3-10 hours to vote.

That says something about our country's precious right to choose our leaders.


Quote:
This is worth fighting for!


Yes it is!
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by lionsound on Nov 3rd, 2004, 11:56am
I've always thought that after voting there should be a mass of confetti and a parade and flags and a good old Sousa march playing to celebrate our freedom of democracy and those who protect it.

Doesn't really happen, but my 6yr old and I "sing"  the Star and Stripes Forever. I took him to vote with me yesterday. It took us a while because he had to read all the candidates and referendums himself....out loud. "Mommy pick THAT one!" :)
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by PittsburghJoe on Nov 3rd, 2004, 12:05pm

on 11/03/04 at 11:44:08, Jeepgun wrote:
May the tone of this next four years be one of bipartisan cooperation, and may the extreme polarization and bitterness among our people be healed.


I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. The Far Right is going to see this as a mandate from the people to impose their will on the rest of the country. And the effects will last a LONG time, with the expected Supreme Court appointments.

Plus, 11 states (13, counting the ones who decided the issue in the primaries) have decided that people like me are "less than" and not deserving of any right to decide my own legal standing.

Forgive me if I'm not jumping for joy today. Instead, I'm contemplating a move to a different country, and regretting the seven years of my life that I apparently wasted in defense of this country.

Call me overly dramatic, I don't really care. Just in a funk over things for the moment.

Joe
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 12:18pm
Joe, your years of service were not wasted. I really don't know what to say to you, though... I'm pleased that this election won't turn into a protracted legal skirmish, and I'm pleased that democracy has prevailed. I'm sad for the many disillusioned people who truly felt that Senator Kerry was the man for the job, and that he would win the election.

Anyway, FWIW:  [smiley=hug.gif]
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by PittsburghJoe on Nov 3rd, 2004, 12:34pm
Thank you, Frank, it's a nice sentiment.

All I can think is, we get the government we deserve.

I'll keep that in mind for the next 4 years.

Joe
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by don on Nov 3rd, 2004, 12:39pm

Quote:
regretting the seven years of my life that I apparently wasted in defense of this country.


Dont regret it Joe. What you defended were the priciples this country was founded on. I walked into a voting booth yesterday and didn't have to pass buy someone holding a machine gun. Thats what you defended. My right to choose without fear of reprisal.

This Joe Shmoe appreciates your service more than ever on an election day.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 3rd, 2004, 12:47pm

on 11/03/04 at 11:44:08, Jeepgun wrote:
Congratulations to the winners. May the tone of this next four years be one of bipartisan cooperation, and may the extreme polarization and bitterness among our people be healed.



Congratulations to President Bush on being elected to a second term.  He regained the authority of the people to be in the White House for another 4 years. The system is working.  

Bipartisanship?  Nice sentiment and I wish, but with control of the White House, the Senate and House of Represenatatives, there really little need for compromise.  To pretend that Bush/Cheney/Rove and the unrepentant ghost of Lee At-water would work so hard to get control, and not run with it and implement their agenda is irrational.  That's what democracy is about.  That's why this election was so tense.  The people have spoken, and the mold for the next 4 years has been cast.

Edited:  OK, so now the software recognizes At.water as a rude word and replaces it with Athingyer?   Hah!
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by JJA on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:16pm

on 11/03/04 at 12:05:21, PittsburghJoe wrote:
Plus, 11 states (13, counting the ones who decided the issue in the primaries) have decided that people like me are "less than" and not deserving of any right to decide my own legal standing.


I'd like to offer my deepest sympathy Joe.  This is one issue I just can't understand in a free country.  I think the US will look back with embarrassment about this someday.  

Jesse
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by nani on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:28pm
I just got home from volunteering at my kid's school, I haven't wanted to turn on the TV yet. Bi-paritsan cooperation seems like a fairy tale right now.[smiley=confused2.gif] I am not feeling especially optimistic about our future, if indeed Bush is the winner.
I'm going to have to make one more point before I stop talking politics (It's spiking my blood pressure)...
Quote:
I can't help but feel a huge sense of gratitude for those who died to give me that privilage.


Mel - I hope you mean those who died in the 1770's, because OUR privilages and our security have not been threatened outright since the Cuban Missile Crisis and before that the Japanese in WWII. I must have missed the attempted invasion of the US by the Iraqi Air Force and Navy.

And Joe - you're right. We get what we deserve. I'm sorry because a Bush victory hits you hardest. Your service was very meaninful. You made the choice to stand up and put your ass on the line to defend our country if it ever needed defending. That, my friend, is an honorable thing to do.

Where's the shoot myself in the head emoticon?
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:31pm
A commentator on CNN put it very well, in the wee hours of this morning: "After this election is over with, the Democratic party is going to need to take an introspective look at why things have turned out so lopsided and how they have lost touch with the majority of voters."

I voted for President Bush and I'm pleased that he won the election, however, if the Democrats were to field a conservative candidate with a well-defined platform and concrete plans for the programs s/he promotes, I might be likely to vote for them. At the beginning of the campaign, my first thought was, "Is this the best that the Democratic party can come up with???"
[smiley=huh.gif]
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Melissa on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:37pm

on 11/03/04 at 13:28:55, nani wrote:
Mel - I hope you mean those who died in the 1770's, because OUR privilages and our security have not been threatened outright since the Cuban Missile Crisis and before that the Japanese in WWII. I must have missed the attempted invasion of the US by the Iraqi Air Force and Navy.

nani, give me a freakin break!!  I am not naive nor ignorant enough to warrant such a comment, nor am I going to answer it.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:42pm
I guess you left your television off on 9/11/01, eh Nani?
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by nani on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:46pm
Sorry mel ... I didn't mean to offend you. I am just so tired of hearing people talk about how our servicemen and women are defending our freedom, when in my opinion, sending them into wars somewhere else is not defending our anything...our freedom is, and has been,safe and sound.   My apologies... :-[
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Melissa on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:55pm
Apology accepted nani.  

My statement about soldiers who died in order for me to be able to vote, had zilch to do with what has happened in the last 4 yrs.  I understand the history of the United States and was reflecting on yes, what happened long ago.  Coming from a military family myself, I have always felt that the voting rights we have are never to be taken for granted, in war or peace.  You never know how someday they could be taken away from us...

Anyway, I do feel your frustration and understand your point of view.  

take care,
mel
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:57pm

on 11/03/04 at 13:46:11, nani wrote:
our freedom is, and has been,safe and sound.


Well, all except for 5,000 Americans who were slaughtered, and all except for the suicidal terrorists who bombed and sank the USS Cole, blew up our embassy in Africa, and bombed the World Trade Center during former president Clinton's term of office, and all except for these same terrorists who would love to kill each and every last American, destroy our country, destroy our way of life, and subjugate the whole world to the bootheel of fundamentalist Islam, just like the peaceful, gentle people of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein's regime. Yep. Other than that, everything's just peachy.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by ShariRae on Nov 3rd, 2004, 1:57pm
IMHO.. 09/11/01 was a direct threat to our security...and a horrific price was paid by many. And maybe we dont belong in wars in some places...but it DOES NOT, in any manner, lessen the fact that our men & women in the service are defending our rights & freedoms...everyday....
just my opinion
Shari
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:00pm

on 11/03/04 at 13:31:31, Jeepgun wrote:
A commentator on CNN put it very well, in the wee hours of this morning: "After this election is over with, the Democratic party is going to need to take an introspective look at why things have turned out so lopsided and how they have lost touch with the majority of voters."


Lopsided? 51-48% in the popular vote is lopsided? One state determining the victor is lopsided?  A small fluctuation in Ohio and it would have been President Kerry.   Bush went from a 90% approval rating to 51% yesterday.  Bush-Kerry was not lopsided. Bush-Gore was not lopsided.  Both parties will be asking themselves questions like "how do we hang on to our base and whittle off enough voters to get one or two more states."
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by nani on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:06pm
One last post about all this stuff...
Frank our safety is in jeopardy, I don't see how we can be INVADED and OCCUPIED by the terrorists. Except maybe the ones who actually have nuclear weapons (Iran)(Pakistan)...
And who will be here to defend us should that happen? The back door draft has sent much of our National Guard overseas. Only since Desert Storm have National Guard troops been used so extensively overseas. They are supposed to be HERE.

OK, I'm done.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by TomM on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:08pm

on 11/03/04 at 12:05:21, PittsburghJoe wrote:
Forgive me if I'm not jumping for joy today. Instead, I'm contemplating a move to a different country, and regretting the seven years of my life that I apparently wasted in defense of this country.

Call me overly dramatic, I don't really care. Just in a funk over things for the moment.

Joe

Joe--When I first read your statement, I was pissed. Then I read the responses and realized it was an over reaction on my part to get pissed.

Just because 'your' candidate does not win is no reason to run to Canada. You spent 7 years in the U.S. military; so did I. The military ain't perfect by a long stretch but by GOD, it's the BEST in the world much like our democracy.

You have a right to be in a funk, as many are today. And because of this not-so-perfect democracy we live in you are free to express your dissatisfaction w/o fear or repercussions. Did I really need to tell you that? I think not.

Express your funk and know that you will face the same dilemma in 4 years but hopefully, your candidate of choice will win.

Chin up my veteran brethren.
TomM 8)
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:11pm
While the electoral college was very close, President Bush won the popular vote by over 3.5 million votes, receiving more votes than any other presidential candidate in history.

The 51%/48% figure is the electoral college, and yes, it was very close. I'm glad it was close, and if Senator Kerry would have won, I would have been disappointed, yet supportive. My hat is also off to Senator Kerry for being a gentleman and conceding the election, rather than drawing it out into a protracted and ugly political skirmish. I have a lot more respect for him.

The story continues in the Senate, the House of Representatives, and the various gubernatorial elections. The Democratic party took quite a beating last night... The one bright spot for the Democrats is Barack Obama. There's a young man to watch in coming years. I watched him speak for a short time last night, and was very impressed.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:16pm
Nani, I understand and respect your point of view and your feelings about it. I don't know that there are any easy answers right now, or if there ever will be. If there were, the scourge of terrorism would have long since been wiped out. Like you, I hope and pray for the safety of our troops, the success of their missions, and for the highest good of our nation. If I had any answers beyond that, I'd probably run for the presidency. ;) [smiley=hug.gif]


on 11/03/04 at 14:06:13, nani wrote:
One last post about all this stuff...
Frank our safety is in jeopardy, I don't see how we can be INVADED and OCCUPIED by the terrorists. Except maybe the ones who actually have nuclear weapons (Iran)(Pakistan)...
And who will be here to defend us should that happen? The back door draft has sent much of our National Guard overseas. Only since Desert Storm have National Guard troops been used so extensively overseas. They are supposed to be HERE.

OK, I'm done.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by nani on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:21pm
Well hell Frank- I have all the answers...maybe we should be running mates. Yeah that's it - an new party...the cluster party...probably couldn't win tho'...not enough of us  ;)
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:25pm
We just wouldn't look right, doubling over, clutching our eye, mainlining Imitrex, and sucking down oxygen in the middle of our campaign speeches, Nani. LOL!  [smiley=laugh.gif]

"My fellow Americans, today Nani and I stand before you, expressing our bid for the White ARRRRRRRGHH!!!!! HOLY F*CKIN CHIT!!!! QUICK! THE NEEDLES! THE NEEDLES!! GIMME THE TANK!! GIMME THE TANK!!!! OWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!"

Yeah, that probably wouldn't go over very well with the electorate...  [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tiannia on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:26pm
Joe, my husband is also ex-military and served under Daddy Bush. His comment this am was well, at least we know what to expect for the next 4 years and the up point is that "at least he cant run again."

-Tia
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Ree on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:29pm
Pardon me if I dont tip my hats off to the people that voted for George Bush... it cost me $40 bucks to fill up my car today I guess that won't change now.  

My mom in laws prescriptions for her Alzheimers just went up that won't have the opportunity to change either.  Maybe we can throw her in her old car like that vet that just came home missing his legs.

I am an American first though, so convince me that Mr Bush in his arrogance won't take this opportunity to say.  Wow they all voted me back in... I can do whatever I want now.............. convince me that my kid will come home some day, because he just got extended over there.   Convince me that there will be enough body armor to go around to the rest of the kids........ convince me........... because right now Im not convinced......was hoping for a change........thats all... God help us because we were in a mess........... and now the mess gets messier............. I mean this in all sincerity while we are having this family political talk.  Convince me because there was a time when I did back Bush.  Then he said he never makes mistakes.  I can think of a few.    ree
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by nani on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:32pm
Ree- [smiley=hug.gif]
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:40pm
[smiley=hug.gif]
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:40pm

on 11/03/04 at 14:11:06, Jeepgun wrote:
While the electoral college was very close, President Bush won the popular vote by over 3.5 million votes, receiving more votes than any other presidential candidate in history.

The 51%/48% figure is the electoral college, and yes, it was very close.


The popular vote was 58.815 million to 55.254 million - my calculator says 51.x% for Bush.   Yes, Bush received more votes than any other candidate, but that is not meaningful when a country has a growing population and the total number of voters increases over time.  But if you want to feel good about that number, its your right as an American, go for it.  You can believe it even if we won't.  :)

When Eisenhower beat Goldwater, that was a blowout.  486 to 52 in the electoral college,  a margin of victory of nearly 16 million votes when only 70 million were cast.  Nixon against McGovern was another blow out, etc.  But the last two elections have been close in historical terms.  
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:44pm
You're right, Floridian. It was a close race. I'm not all together thrilled with President Bush, but I had even more misgivings about Senator Kerry. I feel that the best man won, and I'm glad that democracy won, instead of the lawyers, so the best I can say at this juncture, is that I am feeling ambivalent about the current situation. I guess the next four years will tell....
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by jminmilwaukee on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:49pm
What was the name of that one dude who won the popular vote back in 2000?  ;;D

Peace,
jmin
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Opus on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:51pm
My thoughts are that we really need a new party, one that reflects the use of the brain. It would be called "The Common Sense Party", any candidate regardless of anything else could join if they showed that they have and use common sense. The downside is there are probably only 100,000 or so people left in this country who have common sense so it would be a pretty small party.

Opus/Paul
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:52pm

on 11/03/04 at 14:44:44, Jeepgun wrote:
You're right, Floridian. It was a close race. I'm not all together thrilled with President Bush, but I had even more misgivings about Senator Kerry. I feel that the best man won, and I'm glad that democracy won, instead of the lawyers, so the best I can say at this juncture, is that I am feeling ambivalent about the current situation. I guess the next four years will tell....


Know what you mean - glad that the suspense is over and ready to let things flow to the next stage.  Few people were completely thrilled with either candidate, we choose based on whats on the menu.  

Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by sandie99 on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:53pm
Too bad the winner had to be Bush...  

And just for the record, I know 14 academic minds who are not convinced that the American democracy actually works.

Well, let's see how things progress from now on. I am bit concerned about the economy. But hey, if things continue as they are, the democrats have 2008 in the bag! ;;D

Okay, here comes CH no 6... What a great day today has been...

sandie99
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:55pm
Oh no... I'm sorry, Sandie... Hang in there!  :-/
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Ree on Nov 3rd, 2004, 2:56pm

on 11/03/04 at 14:51:02, Opus wrote:
My thoughts are that we really need a new party, one that reflects the use of the brain. It would be called "The Common Sense Party", any candidate regardless of anything else could join if they showed that they have and use common sense. The downside is there are probably only 100,000 or so people left in this country who have common sense so it would be a pretty small party.

Opus/Paul
me too paul no caps today feeling very small today.........ree
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Opus on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:06pm

on 11/03/04 at 14:56:02, Ree wrote:
me too paul no caps today feeling very small today.........ree



Ree, you may feel small but you are BIG in my eyes. Just remember that Kerry wasn't going to save the country either. IMHO we are just choosing who we feel are the lesser of the two evils. Each candidate wants to help and hurt the country at the same time, and both are really just in it for themselves. They both would follow thier personal beliefs and agendas instead of doing what ever the country needs.

Opus/Paul
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by don on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:14pm
Barack Obama.

My prediction is that he will be the first man of color to become President of the United States.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:16pm

on 11/03/04 at 14:00:20, floridian wrote:
Both parties will be asking themselves questions like "how do we hang on to our base and whittle off enough voters to get one or two more states."


Yes indeed. And people need to take look out side of the political box known as the two party system.


Quote:
When Eisenhower beat Goldwater, that was a blowout.  486 to 52 in the electoral college,  a margin of victory of nearly 16 million votes when only 70 million were cast.  Nixon against McGovern was another blow out, etc.


Or Reagan's 525 to Mondale's 13 (16,877,890 popular votes).


Quote:
And just for the record, I know 14 academic minds who are not convinced that the American democracy actually works.


And just for the record "academic minds" are some of the last minds I'd trust with anything as important as human freedom.

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:19pm

on 11/03/04 at 15:14:56, don wrote:
Barack Obama.

My prediction is that he will be the first man of color to become President of the United States.


Yep! I listened to him speak last night. He seems like he's really got his head on straight, and he took 75% of the vote in his state! Wow! Pretty impressive...
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tom K on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:25pm
Right now, the People's Republic of Illinois would elect anyone who isn't Republican.  It's nice to see that the country is on it's way to healing   [smiley=huh.gif].  Let's see...Dow is up 78, gas prices here went down today, only .02 but it is down.  How does anyone know what is going to happen over the next 4 years?  Everyone is running around with all this hatred and "Chicken Little Syndrom".  This country and this board for that matter, are way too polarized.  Yes, it's not perfect but would it be with Kerry?  He wouldn't make any outstanding changes because he would have to run for re-election four years from now.  


T
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Bob P on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:30pm

Quote:
Barack Obama.

My prediction is that he will be the first man of color to become President of the United States.

He'll have to wait until Hillary is done.

2008 = Rudy vs Hillary

My gratitude to the Swift Boat Vets and POW's for Truth.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Lizzie2 on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:31pm
This thread reminded me of a quote I wrote down a few years ago.  Take it for what you will:

"Remember one thing about democracy.  We can have anything we want and at the same time, we always end up with exactly what we deserve." ~Edward Albee

All I can say is that I hope women don't have to go back to having abortions in back alleys.  I hope that the lesbian and gay community doesn't feel compelled to go BACK in the closet.  I hope that all the uninsured and unemployed in this country aren't dying in the streets.  I hope that music and the arts aren't wiped out of our schools.  I hope that all people with non-Christian beliefs are not outcast.

These are the things that scare me the most about GW and the Republican viewpoints.  Ah well...4 more years... Let the countdown begin!

Lizzie
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Charlie on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:37pm
THE WOMAN named To-morrow
sits with a hairpin in her teeth
and takes her time
and does her hair the way she wants it
and fastens at last the last braid and coil
and puts the hairpin where it belongs
and turns and drawls: Well, what of it?
My grandmother, Yesterday, is gone.
What of it? Let the dead be dead.

          2

The doors were cedar
and the panels strips of gold
and the girls were golden girls
and the panels read and the girls chanted:
 We are the greatest city,
 the greatest nation:
 nothing like us ever was.
 
The doors are twisted on broken hinges.
Sheets of rain swish through on the wind
 where the golden girls ran and the panels read:
 We are the greatest city,
 the greatest nation,
 nothing like us ever was.
 
           3

It has happened before.
Strong men put up a city and got
 a nation together,
And paid singers to sing and women
 to warble: We are the greatest city,
   the greatest nation,
   nothing like us ever was.
 
And while the singers sang
and the strong men listened
and paid the singers well
and felt good about it all,
 there were rats and lizards who listened
 … and the only listeners left now
 … are … the rats … and the lizards.
 
And there are black crows
crying, “Caw, caw,”
bringing mud and sticks
building a nest
over the words carved
on the doors where the panels were cedar
and the strips on the panels were gold
and the golden girls came singing:
 We are the greatest city,
 the greatest nation:
 nothing like us ever was.
 
The only singers now are crows crying, “Caw, caw,”
And the sheets of rain whine in the wind and doorways.
And the only listeners now are … the rats … and the lizards.
 
           4

The feet of the rats
scribble on the door sills;
the hieroglyphs of the rat footprints
chatter the pedigrees of the rats
and babble of the blood
and gabble of the breed
of the grandfathers and the great-grandfathers
of the rats.
 
And the wind shifts
and the dust on a door sill shifts
and even the writing of the rat footprints
tells us nothing, nothing at all
about the greatest city, the greatest nation
where the strong men listened
and the women warbled: Nothing like us ever was.

Carl Sandburg.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by karma on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:38pm
Sandie I think there are over 100 diffrenet variaties of deomcracy being practiced now. The U.S. system isn't perfect but you and your 14 academics would have a hell of a time convincing me that it doesn't work.

Joe, Fight the battle with your head in the air. Nothing worth fighting for comes easy. Things are allot better than they were even 10 years ago. It takes allot to change the mindset of a population but keep the faith it is changing.

Ree, This may sound harsh but when Your son joined the military he made a committment. That committment involves doing things that he may not like. This is war and war is never fair.
    Not being a mother I can only imagine how tough it is for you but the fact is your son willingly joined the military. He may not have anticipated going to war but that is what the military is all about. All the stuff about being underequipped is unacceptable and I would never attempt to justify that. For that I have no answer.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Charlie on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:39pm
THE WOMAN named To-morrow
sits with a hairpin in her teeth
and takes her time
and does her hair the way she wants it
and fastens at last the last braid and coil
and puts the hairpin where it belongs
and turns and drawls: Well, what of it?
My grandmother, Yesterday, is gone.
What of it? Let the dead be dead.

          2

The doors were cedar
and the panels strips of gold
and the girls were golden girls
and the panels read and the girls chanted:
 We are the greatest city,
 the greatest nation:
 nothing like us ever was.
 
The doors are twisted on broken hinges.
Sheets of rain swish through on the wind
 where the golden girls ran and the panels read:
 We are the greatest city,
 the greatest nation,
 nothing like us ever was.
 
           3

It has happened before.
Strong men put up a city and got
 a nation together,
And paid singers to sing and women
 to warble: We are the greatest city,
   the greatest nation,
   nothing like us ever was.
 
And while the singers sang
and the strong men listened
and paid the singers well
and felt good about it all,
 there were rats and lizards who listened
 … and the only listeners left now
 … are … the rats … and the lizards.
 
And there are black crows
crying, “Caw, caw,”
bringing mud and sticks
building a nest
over the words carved
on the doors where the panels were cedar
and the strips on the panels were gold
and the golden girls came singing:
 We are the greatest city,
 the greatest nation:
 nothing like us ever was.
 
The only singers now are crows crying, “Caw, caw,”
And the sheets of rain whine in the wind and doorways.
And the only listeners now are … the rats … and the lizards.
 
           4

The feet of the rats
scribble on the door sills;
the hieroglyphs of the rat footprints
chatter the pedigrees of the rats
and babble of the blood
and gabble of the breed
of the grandfathers and the great-grandfathers
of the rats.
 
And the wind shifts
and the dust on a door sill shifts
and even the writing of the rat footprints
tells us nothing, nothing at all
about the greatest city, the greatest nation
where the strong men listened
and the women warbled: Nothing like us ever was.

Carl Sandburg.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Gator on Nov 3rd, 2004, 3:57pm
You got that right, Karma.  This IS worth fighting for.


Quote:
I am just so tired of hearing people talk about how our servicemen and women are defending our freedom, when in my opinion, sending them into wars somewhere else is not defending our anything...our freedom is, and has been,safe and sound.


Like it or not, deterrence equals protection.  Each and every man and woman in our military (active duty, national guard and reserve) has knowingly and voluntarily placed themselves in harm's way to protect and defend what so many before them have fought and died to create.  I think that is worthy of praise.

Even though you don't see wave after wave of uniformed enemy soldiers rushing our shores and borders, there are still those who would like to see this nation fall.  There are forces both inside and outside of this country that are working to bring that end to fruition.  The vast spreads of inhabitable land, the fertility of the soil, the abundance of natural resources and the availability of a highly skilled work force make it a piece of prime real estate.  

Our military protects this country just by it's existence.  We have the strongest, best trained and best equipped military force in the world.  That being said, you can believe that were this country ever directly attacked by a visible invading force, it would not just be our military on the front lines.  I personally know of no one that would just stand by and leave the fight up to our uniformed services.


Gator
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by TomM on Nov 3rd, 2004, 4:35pm

on 11/03/04 at 14:29:15, Ree wrote:
Pardon me if I dont tip my hats off to the people that voted for George Bush... it cost me $40 bucks to fill up my car today I guess that won't change now.     ree

Ree--First let me say I respect you. Second, the cost of fuel is not Dubya's fault, entirely. Third, I'm a registered Republican and voted for Kerry.  Fourth, the cost of gasoline, taking inflation into the picture from the early 70's/late 60's where I remember it @ .32/gallon, is far cheaper than a gallon of milk.
We have it GOOD in the U.S. of A. Let us not forget that.
TomM
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Ree on Nov 3rd, 2004, 4:35pm

on 11/03/04 at 15:14:56, don wrote:
Barack Obama.

My prediction is that he will be the first man of color to become President of the United States.
Lets make this happen.... he is too cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ree
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 3rd, 2004, 4:40pm
Charlie, Sandburg's poem reminds me of T.S. Eliot's, "The Hollow Men." "This is the way the world ends, not with bang, but a whimper."
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by kimh on Nov 3rd, 2004, 5:34pm
I was happy with the results of this election.  In all honesty i can't say i ever felt for a moment that it would turn out otherwise - that's just my personal gut feeling and has been throughout.....
.....sure. .. It was difficult and passionate for a lot of folks.  It's always been that way.  That is what makes it a good thing.
Our President and Commander in Chief has been elected in the United States of America today.  I am proud to live in this country and will never leave and i do not weigh this choice on the results of one election....we have the luxury to be petulant, we have the luxury to bicker and we have the luxury to take part in our own governing process.  

Four years of someone you don't agree with (or even despise) is better than what most of the rest of the world is forced to swallow.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by TomM on Nov 3rd, 2004, 5:45pm

on 11/03/04 at 17:34:23, kimh wrote:
Four years of someone you don't agree with (or even despise) is better than what most of the rest of the world is forced to swallow.

That is the wisest response I've seen in this thread.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by BarbaraD on Nov 4th, 2004, 6:22am
One thing -- I remember Daddy Bush saying, "Read my lips - no new taxes!" And then we got some new taxes...

Now Jr. says "NO DRAFT!" wonder how long it will be before the draft is reinstated?

The apple never falls far from the tree....

Hugs BD
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Lapsi_Harmaahapsi on Nov 4th, 2004, 6:53am

on 11/03/04 at 14:29:15, Ree wrote:
Pardon me if I dont tip my hats off to the people that voted for George Bush... it cost me $40 bucks to fill up my car today I guess that won't change now.      ree


It costs 90 $ for me and the prices were even higher 2 years ago. "Only" 3/4 of the price is taxes..  there seems to be room for upping the price for you guys too!  ;)
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 4th, 2004, 8:40am

on 11/04/04 at 06:53:02, Lapsi_Harmaahapsi wrote:
It costs 90 $ for me and the prices were even higher 2 years ago. "Only" 3/4 of the price is taxes..  there seems to be room for upping the price for you guys too!  ;)

Oh yes. I agree. After living in Finland for several years I will never again complain about the price of gas - or even of a new car - in the grand US of A again. Most Americans do not realise how very good we have it when it comes to the affordability of consumables.

Hirvimaki-Isi

Lapsi_Harmaahapsi: Now if only I could find a supplier of salmiaki, ruisleipa and maybe get a decent cup of Finnish coffee every now and then over here I'd be content!
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 4th, 2004, 9:04am

on 11/03/04 at 14:08:53, TomM wrote:
Joe--...
Just because 'your' candidate does not win is no reason to run to Canada.
Express your funk and know that you will face the same dilemma in 4 years but hopefully, your candidate of choice will win.


Tom, I just wanted to add that Joe had mentioned the reason for feeling like he did, it wasn't because of the candidate.


Quote:
...this as a mandate from the people to impose their will on the rest of the country. And the effects will last a LONG time, with the expected Supreme Court appointments.

Plus, 11 states (13, counting the ones who decided the issue in the primaries) have decided that people like me are "less than" and not deserving of any right to decide my own legal standing.   Joe


Pretty much the amendment to the definition of marriage being defeated in every state, and he knew of the primary defeats too so I know he was paying attention, was the sore point.  I don't think he would have spoken so strongly if it was just the defeat of a candidate.



Kevin M


Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 4th, 2004, 9:27am

on 11/04/04 at 08:40:02, Hirvimaki wrote:
Lapsi_Harmaahapsi: Now if only I could find a supplier of salmiaki, ruisleipa and maybe get a decent cup of Finnish coffee every now and then over here I'd be content!


http://www.licoriceinternational.com/store/cart.php?cat=Finnish+Licorice

Sometimes commerce IS good!  Also, some speculation as to whether ammonium chloride in Salmiak can trigger a cluster - not enough to scare someone off IMHO, but a possibility to be aware of as you relish the bitterness.

Panda licorice is far better than any salmiak.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 4th, 2004, 9:44am
Thanks, Floridian!


on 11/04/04 at 09:27:03, floridian wrote:
Sometimes commerce IS good!

Commerce is ALWAYS good. IMHO, of course.


on 11/04/04 at 09:27:03, floridian wrote:
Also, some speculation as to whether ammonium chloride in Salmiak can trigger a cluster - not enough to scare someone off IMHO, but a possibility to be aware of as you relish the bitterness.

I've never had a problem with salmiakki in this respect, but good info to have.


on 11/04/04 at 09:27:03, floridian wrote:
Panda licorice is far better than any salmiak.

Panda is OK (I am assuming you are referring to the black licorice and not that raspberry crap), but I prefer Halva Finnish Sweet Licorice over Panda and nothing can touch just good old fashioned Salmiakki. Even Salmiakkipippurikaramelleja hits the spot! I've found some pretty passable salt licorice here, but I always await the care-packages from Finland with bated breath.

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by fubar on Nov 4th, 2004, 10:30am
You know... sometimes the truth really stings.  There was a lot of truth in these election results.  The truth is, every time (11 states) the public was asked to ban gay marriage, they did so.  Does that make it right?  Of course, it has absolutely nothing to do with right or wrong, it's just how the majority voted.  Perhaps those laws will be challenged and overturned in the courts... who knows?  The thing of it is we pose these questions to the voting public and we get answers.  We might not like the answers, but they are legitimate answers.

Same goes for electing Bush.  The majority of voters either approved of Bush or were picking the lessor of two evils.  No difference, he is our President now.  Some will like it, some will not.  Those who disagree with his policies and direction are going to have their work cut out for them, but it shouldn't be a reason to flee the country or give up the democratic process.  Bottom line is he won and we will have another election in four years.

Joe, I feel bad that you had to listen to the country tell you they disapprove of gay marriage, but I'm glad they got to vote.  In my opinion, it was a little to early to be asking the voters such questions.  The country has evolved, but not that much yet.  Keep the faith.

Ree, I don't know how to make you feel better, but if it helps any, I do believe our troops are far better off, far safer with Bush than with Kerry as a commander in chief.

Thank God the election is OVER. Let's talk about religion now.   :P
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 4th, 2004, 11:18am
Very well-stated, Fubar. I couldn't agree with you more.  [smiley=thumb.gif]

-Frank
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Charlie on Nov 4th, 2004, 8:08pm

Quote:
Same goes for electing Bush.  The majority of voters either approved of Bush or were picking the lessor of two evils.


Bush wouldn't be around at all if it wasn't for the more than 4,000,000 evangelicals that are kept scared shitless by the greedy, if not outright criminal, TV "preachers." They vote according to the wishes of these creeps that use stuff like abortion and gay rights to rake in mountains of cash.

It's fear, fear and more fear. They are being used and the GOP will continue to use them as long as they’re good for votes. It’s clever, really.

Richard Nixon's old theory that it's good to let in a few social programs (EPA is a good example) has been shot down by the neocons. Nixon let stuff like this slide as long as it didn’t get in his way.

Anyway, it's the TV watching holy rollers that finally elected Bush and the neocon Republicans. I’m sure Bush will never do it, but it would take something like the draft or some kind of really nasty form of censorship to make a difference....If the Democrats would display some balls, it would work too. They need to pound on their issues, 24/7, just like Karl Rove. It works.

Charlie
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tom K on Nov 4th, 2004, 8:45pm

on 11/04/04 at 20:08:55, Charlie wrote:
It's fear, fear and more fear. They are being used and the GOP will continue to use them as long as they’re good for votes. It’s clever, really.


Yeah, because the Dems don't do that with the black or hispanic vote....


T
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Charlie on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:16am
Religion is based on fear. It's reliable. Jerry Falwell and Co. have TV, every goddam day. Demcorats have nothing like them or Rush. Republicans are never complacent. Conservatives are a minority but they know how to vote. Democrats are sloppy at the polls. Let's face it: Democrats need to follow Rove's example: Keep them on edge.......all the time.

Charlie
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tom K on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:30am

on 11/05/04 at 00:16:21, Charlie wrote:
Religion is based on fear. It's reliable. Jerry Falwell and Co. have TV, every goddam day. Demcorats have nothing like them or Rush. Republicans are never complacent. Conservatives are a minority but they know how to vote. Democrats are sloppy at the polls. Let's face it: Democrats need to follow Rove's example: Keep them on edge.......all the time.

Charlie


Oh please.  Jesse Jackson...need I say more?  The big 3 media, any newspaper.  Why do you think the Chicago Sun-Times is written at a 3rd grade level?  Gimme a break.  You know that the Dems have all these people in their pocket.  What was the ratio of positive Kerry stories to positive Bush stories during all of this?  8 to 1.  What was the ratio of anti-Kerry to anti-Bush?  1 to 12.  With the vast majority of media talking heads and writers being Dems, it's pretty self eveident.  Even you have to conceed that one.  Add to it, Moore, PDiddy and the Vote or Die crowd, 80% of the actors, MTV and the like and the Dems hit more people in one hour than all of the Republicans do in a day.  

Maybe all of the Dems, on this board and across the country need to look back at the one person they hold so dear...John F Kennedy.  Remember what he said?  Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.  That died so long ago.  Now, everyone of you wants the government to give you health care, free drugs, a pay check, housing, the list goes on.  What happened to pulling up one's self by the boot strings and doing it on your own?  One of the biggest Dems in the country, Daley of Chicago said today that he wasn't suprised by the loss.  He said that Dems today are too busy thinking inside the beltway, not looking out for the intrest of the party or their people.  They think too in the box, the Republicans are the ones doing the outside the box thinking.  He said that unless things turn around and quickly, they will lose the next election, too.  This is pretty funny from the man who announced today that there is going to be a tax increase to pay for a bunch of new crap, but it is true none the less.  Don't let the government own you, let go of the teat.  Do it for yourself, that way you and only you can take credit for making it happen.


T
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Charlie on Nov 5th, 2004, 2:38am
Pretty standard crap from the Rush Limbaugh standard right wing bullshit 3 x 5 card file. It never ends.

Democrats don't have....at last count...310 hours of right wing radio screechers pandering to low IQ listeners.  

Left wing media: True to an extent but nowhere near the level bellowed by talk shows day after day after day on right wing radio.  On this, I remember Walter Cronkite (A great patiriot liberal...and everybody knows the war thing, relax. He wasn't wrong) was asked about this in an interview. He said it well that most newsmen were newspaper reporters back then and were closer to stories, many tragic and they saw the human side of things more than most. To us, it's something on the news; to them, it's an experience.
This has always made sense.

And to round out this post:

Those who don't think much of the Bill of Rights, separation of church and state, sensible drug prices and access to health care, the environment, scientific research and progressive teaching, think that censorship is a good idea, think lying to Congress and the country is just fine, think it's cool to un-fund most of the programs promised in 2000 while being a doormat for every big corporation by cutting back on safety, overtime, and to give just them about anything they want, allowing them to cut or end pensions, send jobs to India so they don't have to pay real wages, like the idea of setting up a Medicare prescription drug plan that is so convoluted that it's more trouble than it's worth and benefits drug companies and HMOs at levels hard to comprehend, that cutting veterans hospitals and making it more difficult to use them is a good idea, don't mind underpaying our military, think auto makers and ex-oil company execs fit right in the environmental and health departments, that refusing to fully pay New York firefighters what was promised is just fine, that blowing the historic chance after 9-11 when we had the cooperation of everybody by behaving like a small child to the rest of the world is fine, that tying foreign aid to abortion and domestic politics is great, trying everything possible to eliminate federal programs that have kept the country stable for 70 years (New Deal) is cool, that belonging to a party that that had members that intimidated native Americans at the polls in 2000 is wonderful, hires horrors like John Ashcroft to guard our civil rights, and that pretty much governs to please the Pat Robertsons, etc. in our midst, and their leader said Sweden has no army and the Poland was a big ally in Iraq.......should be very happy that their boy has been returned to the White House to do his best to make life harder for poor people and eliminating more jobs.

I can only hope that something is left of the country after four years of not having to worry about reelection.  It doesn't look good. About the first thing out of his mouth was his pledge to "fix the antiquated tax code." Oh yeah. This is gonna be great for you and me. Use your umbrella....trickle down, you know. What a moronic way to start.

Charlie
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by AussieBrian on Nov 5th, 2004, 2:53am
And the winner is ..........  the VOTERS!!!!

Because it's only voters get to complain about the result.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Gator on Nov 5th, 2004, 3:04am

on 11/04/04 at 20:08:55, Charlie wrote:
Bush wouldn't be around at all if it wasn't for the more than 4,000,000 evangelicals...

It's fear, fear and more fear.


It's not the evangelicals that got Bush re-elected.  It was Kerry himself that did that.  If he'd have chosen one face to present to the people and stuck with it; actually showed he has a solid core of values instead of using poll results and the make up of the audience he was speaking to determine his opinion, I think he would have faired much better.  

If fear had anything to do with it, it was the fear of what Kerry would or wouldn't do.  All anyone had to go on was his record of voting against the military, voting to cut our intelligence gathering ability and voting for higher taxes.   That and his publicly contradicting himself every time he opened his mouth.

on 11/04/04 at 23:16:21, Charlie wrote:

Quote:
Religion is based on fear. It's reliable. Jerry Falwell and Co. have TV, every goddam day. Demcorats have nothing like them or Rush. Republicans are never complacent. Conservatives are a minority but they know how to vote. Democrats are sloppy at the polls. Let's face it: Democrats need to follow Rove's example: Keep them on edge.......all the time.

Charlie  


Let's further examine this thing you have with republicans and fear.  

Who is it that runs around every 4 years telling the elderly that the republicans are going to stop their social security checks?  

Who is is that plays on the suspicions and fears of minority voters, saying the republicans are not going to let them vote?

Who is it telling the poor the republicans are going to stop the welfare checks?  

Who was it playing on the fears of the youth of this country saying the republicans are going to bring back the draft, even after they themselves presented a bill to do just that?

The tactic of fear is not just a republican thing.  It's a political weapon weilded by both parties.

Conservatives are not a minority.  The bulk of the democrats in this country have basically the same moral, ethical and financial beliefs as the bulk of the republicans.  The main difference is how much is too much when it comes to social programs.  Both parties have their fringe kooks, but for the most part, the average citizen in this country (regardless of party) believes in an honest days work for an honest days pay, taxes are too high, a dollar don't buy what it used to and that politicians are mostly hot air.

If there is one thing the democrats need more than anything, it's a positive message.  A clear and concise set of goals.   People in general have a need to stand FOR something.  The party platform provided nothing solid for it's people to stand for.  The theme this year was not vote FOR Kerry or for this or that ideal, it was vote AGAINST Bush.  


Gator
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Charlie on Nov 5th, 2004, 8:02am
It's the Republicans that have found the magic bullet. They don't need to step on to the podium or run a press conference. Every day Pat Roberston and his ilk do it for them. The 24/7 TCT or Christian network tell us to get ready for the second coming every week. These Jesus Jolly types have been raking it in for hundreds of years because of fear. We are always living in the end times and by god, you better not be on record supporting the wrong party.  The funny thing about God is that he is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omibenevolent.....but he always needs money, lots of money. He's all these things but just can't handle cash.


Quote:
the average citizen in this country (regardless of party) believes in an honest days work for an honest days pay, taxes are too high, a dollar don't buy what it used to and that politicians are mostly hot air.


True but you'll also find that a strong majority does not believe we should outlaw abortion or go nuts on social issues. Democrats take it lying down and it pisses me off. It would be interesting if they could run an anonymous poll on gay issues too. I'd love to know that result. In truth, the country has never been safer but neocons won't tell you that. Fear is their thing. They are clever.  The Democrats piss me off that they don't know how to use all those liberal Hollywood types to their advantage. They also need some balls when it comes to elections.

Anyway, this and the constant bellowing that we should be cringing and checking the threat color code of each day in order to live scares some of us. In truth, the world is safer now than ever. Even the school violence rate is lower than it has been in 30 years...most crime rates are way down.  9/11 has given the powers that be a handy excuse to snoop on you and me and Washington is using fear as a weapon against us and to trample on the Bill of Rights. Now that IS scary. We are told that it's the scariest time in our history. Bullshit.  When I was in school we had air raid drills about twice a month, had pamphlets on what the bomb could do, saw films about it in theaters and on TV, and we were told that by hiding under our desks, we wouldn't get quite so burned. Meanwhile, dad was going over the blueprints for a fallout shelter.  Now that was scary. So was the Cuban Missile crisis. WWIII was a constant for me.

Jesse Jackson doesn't have anywhere near the audience as your guys and Bush really does talk about changing Social Security. I hope the GOP tries something really stupid with it. On the draft, even Bush isn't that dumb. It would be like LBJ who said that by signing the Civl Rights Act, he just lost the Democrat's "solid South." He was sure right about that.

Charlie
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Bob P on Nov 5th, 2004, 9:33am

Quote:
Religion is based on fear.
Not mine.  Mine is based on love.  I can be the biggest fuck-up inthe world and my God still loves me enough to fogive me.

Heck, I even love you Charlie!
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 5th, 2004, 9:38am
Ditto. The God, philosophy, cosmology that I subscribe to is based only on eternal, unconditional love. (Er.. Then again, I'm not a member of an orthodox religion...)  8)
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Bob P on Nov 5th, 2004, 9:50am

Quote:
(Er.. Then again, I'm not a member of an orthodox religion...)
The only religious title I claim is that of Christian.  I became disillusioned with "organized" religion long ago.  Too much like big business.

At least now we have 4 more years to continue to repair this Clinton recession, rid the world or terrorists and fix the tax system so the successful people don't have to carry the tax burden of the gimmies.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 5th, 2004, 10:06am

Quote:
Religion is based on fear.


I go to church every Sunday and am very comfortable in my relationship with God. I have yet to hear one word of vitriol or hate or detestation from the pulpit (unlike what I just read in your post). But hey, thanks for making a generalization. Way to win support!

Do you really believe that spewing hate and invective on people who have a differing political point of view is going to make a change or bring anyone over to your way of thinking?

I find more truth in my religion than your secular moral relativism. But I don't hate you for your beliefs. I'm sorry that you seem incapable of little else but hate right now.

And just so you know, I am not a Republican. But I did not vote for Kerry. And it had nothing to do with Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell or Rush Limbaugh.

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 5th, 2004, 10:40am

on 11/05/04 at 09:50:43, Bob P wrote:
At least now we have 4 more years to continue to repair this Clinton recession, rid the world or terrorists and fix the tax system so the successful people don't have to carry the tax burden of the gimmies.


Actually, if Bush ever did decide to zap the 'gimmies' the blue states would benefit greatly, and the south would feel some real economic pain.  Connecticut gets back 64 cents for every dollar they send to Washington, while many southern states get back $1.50 or more for every dollar they send to the feds.  But fiscal fairness is not on the horizon.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/ff/taxingspendingupdate.html


Changing the tax system won't fix our economic problems.  Things will only get worse without spending cuts, while the budgets for the next 4 years will be based on increased spending and debt debt debt.  What a lovely present for our grandchildren!  But no need to point a finger at ourselves - we can blame everything on Clinton.  
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 5th, 2004, 10:40am

on 11/05/04 at 09:50:43, Bob P wrote:
At least now we have 4 more years to continue to repair this Clinton recession,


Someone's awake, anyway.  Check the stock market listings from June 2000 to Nov 2000, prior to Bush's election.  Now there's a sled ride.


Kevin M
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 5th, 2004, 10:53am
A recession was innevitable - when bubbles pop, people get let down.  But how much of it was due to Clinton policy, and how much to corporate theft (Enron etc) and irrational investors throwing money at shit ideas?  


Quote:
But the real truth is that national defense is far from being responsible for all of the spending increases. According to the new numbers, defense spending will have risen by about 34 percent since Bush came into office. But, at the same time, non-defense discretionary spending will have skyrocketed by almost 28 percent. Government agencies that Republicans were calling to be abolished less than 10 years ago, such as education and labor, have enjoyed jaw-dropping spending increases under Bush of 70 percent and 65 percent respectively.


http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-31-03.html
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Bob P on Nov 5th, 2004, 10:55am
and this morning's news:

Economy Added 337,000 Jobs in October
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 5th, 2004, 11:06am

on 11/05/04 at 10:55:58, Bob P wrote:
and this morning's news:

Economy Added 337,000 Jobs in October


Good news, but what does it mean?


Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Employers aggressively hired new workers in October, adding 337,000 people to their payrolls after a sluggish summer, but the unemployment rate rose fractionally to 5.5 percent.

The pace of hiring was the fastest in six months, nearly double what economists had forecast, the Labor Department reported Friday, saying cleanup efforts from hurricanes that struck Florida and much of the Southeast helped jump-start the labor market.

But the overall, seasonally adjusted jobless rate actually rose by 0.1 percentage point from the 5.4 percent rate of September because more people renewed their job searches, expanding the pool of available workers.


Will the huricane stimulus last much longer?  Stay tuned to find out.  
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tom K on Nov 5th, 2004, 11:13am

on 11/05/04 at 02:38:30, Charlie wrote:
think lying to Congress and the country is just fine

I didn't have sexual relations with that woman.  Depends on what the meaning of the work is, is.

Quote:
 don't mind underpaying our military

Yeah, because having them on welfare during the Clinton years...that was ok?  Seem to remember that there was a raise given to the military during Bush.
Quote:
that refusing to fully pay New York firefighters what was promised is just fine

He had something to do with this?

Quote:
to a party that that had members that intimidated native Americans at the polls in 2000 is wonderful

Hmmm...get your story right, Dashhole's people were busted burning absentee ballots on a reservation in SD.  The NA, were told that if Bush was elected, they were going to close the reservation.  It was a big story out in SD, then it died off.  

Kinda like the fear you are spreading now, Charlie.  If there is anything left of our country.  Please, give me just a small break.  

T
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 5th, 2004, 11:16am
Hey, Jeep!

BTW, I like your quote, "Cogito ergo doleo".

Just remember: Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

;;D

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 5th, 2004, 11:48am

on 11/05/04 at 10:53:46, floridian wrote:
A recession was innevitable - when bubbles pop, people get let down.  But how much of it was due to Clinton policy, and how much to corporate theft (Enron etc) and irrational investors throwing money at shit ideas?  


All true, but just wanted to put forth that Bush had inherited a nosediving economy.


Kevin M
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 5th, 2004, 11:52am

on 11/05/04 at 11:06:08, floridian wrote:
Will the huricane stimulus last much longer?  Stay tuned to find out.  


Here comes Christmas season.  I guess we'll know after the new year.


Kevin M
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tom K on Nov 5th, 2004, 11:55am

on 11/05/04 at 11:52:00, Kevin_M wrote:
Here comes Christmas season.  I guess we'll know after the new year.


Kevin M



Damn, those events that help the economy...Now if Clinton only had the tech bubble....oh, wait....

T
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:03pm

on 11/05/04 at 11:55:31, Tom K wrote:
Damn, those events that help the economy...Now if Clinton only had the tech bubble....oh, wait....


Sorry Tom, I'm lost relating the two.  ?  

Christmas is yearly, the bubble, and it's burst half way through Clinton's last year was a first for me.

Kevin M
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:05pm

on 11/05/04 at 11:16:50, Hirvimaki wrote:
Hey, Jeep!

BTW, I like your quote, "Cogito ergo doleo".

Just remember: Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.


So true... ROFL!


:-X Shhhhhh...  [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tom K on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:09pm

on 11/05/04 at 12:03:57, Kevin_M wrote:
Sorry Tom, I'm lost relating the two.  ?  

Christmas is yearly, the bubble, and it's burst half way through Clinton's last year was a first for me.

Kevin M


There are events that happen in every President's term that help/hurt the economy.  Everyone wants to point that Bush has the "help" from hurricane relief.  Clinton had help from the Tech bubble start, lost it when it burst.  The burst carried over into Bush's term, and was starting to recover then 9/11 happened.  

T
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tom K on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:11pm

on 11/05/04 at 11:16:50, Hirvimaki wrote:
Hey, Jeep!

BTW, I like your quote, "Cogito ergo doleo".

Just remember: Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

;;D

Hirvimaki-Isi



HA!   [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by karma on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:15pm
You guys gotta be kidding me.
With the exception of the national deficit do you really believe that the president has any significant affect on the U.S. economy?
If it makes you feel better to blame someone go ahead and blame the pres. But the economy is a behemoth that cannot be controlled by one man and his policies.  
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Kevin_M on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:16pm

on 11/05/04 at 12:09:29, Tom K wrote:
There are events that happen in every President's term that help/hurt the economy.  Everyone wants to point that Bush has the "help" from hurricane relief.  Clinton had help from the Tech bubble start, lost it when it burst.  The burst carried over into Bush's term, and was starting to recover then 9/11 happened.  


Ok.  I'm gonna exit this thread, one response and a big WOOOSH goes right over my head.

thanks,   ;;D

Kevin M
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Tom K on Nov 5th, 2004, 12:26pm

on 11/05/04 at 12:15:36, karma wrote:
You guys gotta be kidding me.
With the exception of the national deficit do you really believe that the president has any significant affect on the U.S. economy?
If it makes you feel better to blame someone go ahead and blame the pres. But the economy is a behemoth that cannot be controlled by one man and his policies.  


This reminds me of something someone where I work said.  Don't think you believe this, from what you have posted in the past, but just had to share....
"There is a big conspericy, like the Illuminati, that runs the world.  They make all the decisions, run the governments and keep everyone working.  If everyone could just rise up and over throw them, we could stop working and money would be worthless.  This is why some people make more money than others."  I said, "Where are these "people", we should find them and break it to the media and start the revolution."  The reply was, "The media is in on it, too.  They run the media and no one knows where the headquarters is."  I then replied, "How do you know it exists, then."  I got silence as a reply.  I followed up with, "So there are black helicopters that monitor the cities and contrails from airplanes are actually mind control agents being spread from above?"  Blank stare.  I then asked if he had tinfoil under his hat.  No reply.  

T
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by floridian on Nov 5th, 2004, 1:08pm

on 11/05/04 at 12:26:57, Tom K wrote:
This reminds me of something someone where I work said.  Don't think you believe this, from what you have posted in the past, but just had to share....
"There is a big conspericy, like the Illuminati, that runs the world.  They make all the decisions, run the governments and keep everyone working.  If everyone could just rise up and over throw them, we could stop working and money would be worthless.  This is why some people make more money than others."  I said, "Where are these "people", we should find them and break it to the media and start the revolution."  The reply was, "The media is in on it, too.  They run the media and no one knows where the headquarters is."  I then replied, "How do you know it exists, then."  I got silence as a reply.  I followed up with, "So there are black helicopters that monitor the cities and contrails from airplanes are actually mind control agents being spread from above?"  Blank stare.  I then asked if he had tinfoil under his hat.  No reply.  

T



Gotta laugh at that one.  

The president has great power to mess the economy up - taxes can be high, deficits can ballon, inflation can skyrocket, mismanagement and corruption can be encouraged.  The government has a modest power to stimulate and encourage the economy.  In the past 4 years, the low interest rates have had a big effect for many people, but I fear that is about to come to an end.

And I think the old truism is largely true: When the economy is good, the president claims too much credit, when its bad, he is stuck with too much blame. But the nation is loading up on debt, which is eventually going to cost people plenty.
Title: Re: And the winner is!
Post by Gator on Nov 5th, 2004, 1:48pm

Quote:
on Today at 11:15:36, karma wrote:

You guys gotta be kidding me.
With the exception of the national deficit do you really believe that the president has any significant affect on the U.S. economy?  
If it makes you feel better to blame someone go ahead and blame the pres. But the economy is a behemoth that cannot be controlled by one man and his policies.
 


on 11/05/04 at 12:26:57, Tom K wrote:
This reminds me of something someone where I work said.  Don't think you believe this, from what you have posted in the past, but just had to share....
"There is a big conspericy, like the Illuminati, that runs the world.  They make all the decisions, run the governments and keep everyone working.  If everyone could just rise up and over throw them, we could stop working and money would be worthless.  This is why some people make more money than others."  I said, "Where are these "people", we should find them and break it to the media and start the revolution."  The reply was, "The media is in on it, too.  They run the media and no one knows where the headquarters is."  I then replied, "How do you know it exists, then."  I got silence as a reply.  I followed up with, "So there are black helicopters that monitor the cities and contrails from airplanes are actually mind control agents being spread from above?"  Blank stare.  I then asked if he had tinfoil under his hat.  No reply.  

T



Quote:
Posted by: floridian Posted on: Today at 12:08:56

Gotta laugh at that one.  

The president has great power to mess the economy up - taxes can be high, deficits can ballon, inflation can skyrocket, mismanagement and corruption can be encouraged.  The government has a modest power to stimulate and encourage the economy.  In the past 4 years, the low interest rates have had a big effect for many people, but I fear that is about to come to an end.  

And I think the old truism is largely true: When the economy is good, the president claims too much credit, when its back, he is stuck with too much blame. But the nation is loading up on debt, which is eventually going to cost people plenty.


Karma is right and I believe floridian has pointed out in the past how the economy is not tied to the whims of one man.  Our congress has more to do with the rise and fall of the economy than the pres.  Any of the individual states' numbers can throw the total out of kilter.  Our economy is also interdependent with the ecomomies of Europe and Asia.  We sell a lot of goods overseas.  If they quit buying, we quit selling - economy suffers.  We are also slaves to the weather.  No matter how good the stock market is doing, if we suffer a period of drought, the price of food goes up dramatically.  We as the citizens also effect our own stability through what we choose to buy.  Do we support American industry or do we buy from foreign manufacturers?  The president is just one cog in a very large machine.

I do not argue that the debt is piling up.  Then again, we are recovering from an attack on our country's safety and security.  We are also recovering from the worst corporate scandals in history.  We have just fought two wars and continue nation building activites in both countries.  Did we bite off more than we could chew?  You bet.  Will bitching about it amongst ourselves change anything?  Nope.  We have a voice on how things are done in our elected officials.  We can call and write and e-mail them to let them know of our dissatisfaction with how they are doing things.  If enough people write a congressman and say fix it or you're fired, it'll get fixed or there will be a new congressman in there trying.  If we only voice our opinion once every four years, nothing will change.  If we remain silent to them, they will keep voting the way they always have.  

Collectively, we as a nation hold the control to our fate.  Some of us are just too lazy to push the buttons.

Gator


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