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        New Message Board Archives >> 2004 Posts >> Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
        
(Message started by: Hirvimaki on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 10:07am)

Title: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 10:07am

Wiccans Support Ten Commandments

Clay County, West Virginia - In a strange twist on the most recent Ten Commandments display case, the "Widen's Own Wiccans," the local witches group in Clay County, West Virginia, announced that they support the display in the county courthouse and oppose the ACLU's threat of a lawsuit. The American Family Association Center for Law & Policy (CLP), which is defending the County, has stated that they believe the display meets constitutional requirements. The display consists of a framed plaque of the Ten Commandments and a copy of the U.S. Constitution on one side and the Declaration of Independence on the other.

According to a press release issued by the Wiccans, they believe Clay County "is being bullied by the ACLU," and that the Ten Commandments "are, and have always been, an integral part of Clay's unique, one-of-a-kind culture." The Wiccans pledged to support the Clay County Commission "in its quest to maintain our Christian/Appalachian heritage and Culture." The press release concluded: "We want the '10 Commands' to STAY ON THE WALL."

Stephen Crampton, Chief Counsel for the CLP, said, "While we were surprised by the public comments of the Wiccans, we appreciate their recognition of the contribution of the Ten Commandments to the culture of Clay County. It is a shame that virtually everyone but the ACLU acknowledges the integral role of the Ten Commandments both in Clay County and in our nation."

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 10:10am

The good ol' ACLU strikes again... Don't those asshats have anything better to do than to look for excuses to launch lawsuits over stupid bullshit? Apparently not.

[smiley=huh.gif] >:(

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 10:18am

on 11/02/04 at 10:10:02, Jeepgun wrote:

Don't those asshats have anything better to do than to look for excuses to launch lawsuits over stupid bullshit? Apparently not.

Follow the money. Seriously.

Behind the self-righteous underbrush the ACLU grows as it invokes the First Amendment in its attacks on the religious community and America's traditions is money. A little-known 1976 federal law called the Civil Rights Attorney's Fees Awards Act enables the ACLU to collect attorneys' fees for its suits against crosses, the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Ten Commandments. The law was designed to help plaintiffs in civil rights cases, but the ACLU has been using it for its "First Amendment cases", asserting that it is a civil right not to see a cross or the Ten Commandments.

Follow the money.

Hirvimaki-Isi

PS: And that is TAXPAYER money. So YOU get to pay the ACLU... Isn't that nice?

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by john_d on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 10:45am

I can't figure that one out. Just a hunch, but they may be just a tiny bit afraid of the local folks.

The following story is from the same area, Clay County, WV...

http://www.wwrn.org/parse.php?idd=9682&c=50

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 10:49am

Disgusting... "Believe and practice the religion we tell you to, or we will take your children away, based on nothing but hearsay." And here, I thought the witch trials in Europe and Massachussets were over... >:( :'( :(

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by PittsburghJoe on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 10:51am

Oh, come now, John. Everybody knows that all Christians are honest and loving people who would NEVER discriminate against someone for being different. That's what keeps the extreme right wing of the GOP so open to outside ideas.

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by floridian on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 10:52am

Everybody hates the ACLU, until they need them.

Quote:

The ACLU of Florida’s Simon added: “For many people, it may seem odd that the ACLU has come to the defense of Rush Limbaugh. But we have always said that the ACLU’s real client is the Bill of Rights and we will continue to safeguard the values of equality, fairness and privacy for everyone, regardless of race, economic status or political point of view.”

“We have defended the rights of every group on the political spectrum from anti-war protesters and Oliver North to church-state separation activists and Jerry Falwell,” Simon noted.

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by nani on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 11:45am

OK my [smiley=twocents.gif]

The constitution calls for seperation of "church" and state, not God and state. I often disagree with the ACLU and many of my fellow liberals stand that even referencing God is against it. However... the ten commandments judeo-christian in origin. For those who yell the loudest about the inherent right to associate them with government in any way... do you also believe in the right for the association of references from the koran, or writing from the many other religions that Americans practice? And yes Joe- we all know how tolerant and accepting fundamentalist christians are. ;)

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by floridian on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 12:09pm

Quote:

The Supreme Court has said such displays are permissible if they are part of a larger presentation that is not primarily religious in content.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1013/p02s01-usju.html

Sounds reasonable to me.

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Kirk on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 1:05pm

Nani: The US constitution says the state shall not promote one form of religion over another.
The Soviet Constitution sets forth the seperation of church and state.

YMMV

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by floridian on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 1:14pm

Quote:

Nani: The US constitution says the state shall not promote one form of religion over another.
The Soviet Constitution sets forth the seperation of church and state.

YMMV

Damn that Communist Thomas Jefferson to eternal Hellfire for coining the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" and insinuating that this was the intent of our founding fathers (as if he would know!).

Quote:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by nani on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 1:20pm

Quote:

The US constitution says the state shall not promote one form of religion over another.
The Soviet Constitution sets forth the seperation of church and state.

You say potAto I say potAHto... same thing different phrases.
Thanks floridian...I wouldn't have known where to find that.

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 1:48pm

And yet the "separation of church and state" is from letters written by Thomas Jefferson and later by James Madison. If we are now making laws based on the framer's correspondence, then we have a whole lot of amending to do.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Hmm...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... Sounds like some people would like to apply part, but not all of this...

In fact, if you want to start pulling what the founders wrote outside of the Constitution into this:

"Whoever will introduce into public affairs the principals of Christianity will change the face of the world."
Benjamin Franklin

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionist, but by Christians. Not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
Patrick Henry

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this...; It connected in one indissolvable bond the principals of civil government with the principals of Christianity."
John Quincy Adams

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians as their rulers."
John Jay

Hirvimaki-Isi

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Kirk on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 2:32pm

Gotta love it [smiley=argue.gif]

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by floridian on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 3:34pm

on 11/02/04 at 13:48:21, Hirvimaki wrote:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Hmm...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... Sounds like some people would like to apply part, but not all of this...

....

Hirvimaki-Isi

Not at all - Churches are not being closed down, people are not being told what to believe, or how to worship. Religion in the US is largely free of government interference. Have a religious belief? Great, you can start a religious organization, assemble, teach, sell books, produce a TV show. Maybe the local courthouse or school won't put up the posters you print, but so what? Who said they have to?

Certainly there were different opinions and tendencies among the framers of the Constitution, but the quoted opinions of Franklin, Henry and Adams were not put into the document. The word God does not appear in the Constitution. If there was a consensus that reflected the quotes in your post, then surely they would not have accidentally omitted a reference to God, surely they would not have forgotten to establish an explicitly Christian country?? Again, a study of the letters and speeches associated with the US Constitution indicate that the drafters intentionally decided to keep government out of the religion business.

While the average person believes that the current legal views on the separation of church and state arose from the wickedness of the 1960s (dope smoking, free love, and civil rights), in fact, the key decision was made in 1947. The federal government had always stayed out of the religion business, and in this decision, the states were bound to the same principal:

Quote:

The court pointed out in Everson v. Board of Education (1947) that, after the Fourteenth Amendment made the First Amendment applicable to the states, the Establishment Clause means that neither the federal government nor a state "can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another."

http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/churchandstate.html

The First Amendment requires the state to be neutral in its relations with groups of religious believers and nonbelievers and does not require the state to be their adversary, and state power is no more to be used so as to handicap religions, than it is to favor them.

http://tinyurl.com/5zye4

The existing laws on Church/State relationships are actually reasonable and moderate, although there is a grey zone that will inevitably lead to some conflict. But the law is mis-characterized by right wing Dominionists, who seek something more than neutrality and freedom for all:

Quote:

Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.

But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice.

It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.

It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.

It is dominion we are after.

World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less... Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. (pp. 50-51)

From George Grant, in The Changing of the Guard, Biblical Principles for Political Action.

http://www.theocracywatch.org

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Tiannia on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 4:11pm

I am sorry but there is a serious issue in this country when it comes to pagan religions. OK heading to my soap box now, so if you dont care then dont read.

Example...
One of my dearest friends in the world was put on trial and his exwife attempted to take away his joint custody of thier two sons because he is a practising Druid. He is ordanied and can Marry people in the State of Georgia. (This is the man, and his wife, who would have custody of my children if anything where to happen to myself and my husband.)

Ty went to court to see if he could get custody of thier older son because his ex got busted for cocaine, again. She was required to take weekly drug tests and failed 2 in a row. The Court attempted to take away his custody because she said that he was a satan worshiper and drank blood at this wedding. She showed a picture of Ty and Tina, his wife, drinking red wine and swore that it was blood cause he didnot belong to a church and did not get married in one. If it was not for his then 10 yr old son speeking, then he would have lost them. All because people are not willing to allow people who practise the same liberty that say a Baptist would get..

The military acknowledges the religions of Druidism and Wicca but people are ignorant and scared. It amazes me that in the age of information being at our fingertips, there are still "witch hunters". People who sit in Chat rooms and attemp locate people to mess with them. In other countries, there are still reports of people who are still killed because of the religion that they practise. The "Burning Times" are still here. But there are many of us who work very hard to change peoples opinions of Witches, "Wiccans". That we are not green, rarly cackel, and only ride brooms when we sleep. Which having CH is very rare indeed.

OK getting off my soap box now. Thanks for hearing me vent.

-Tia

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 4:12pm

Amazing how similar fundamentalist zealots sound, no matter what religion they claim to be waging jihad for.
[smiley=bomb.gif]

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 4:13pm

on 11/02/04 at 15:34:16, floridian wrote:

Not at all...

So all people who argue for "separation of church and state" have the best intentions and wish only to enpower the Constitution and the framer's original intent and those who argue against it have only self-interest at heart?

Historically there have been a lot of separatists who were disingenuous or morally suspect, including - sad to say - Jefferson. Jefferson's Republican allies used the language of separation to denounce New England clergy for speaking against him from the pulpit, the Know-Nothings (anti-Catholics) as well as businessmen like P. T. Barnum used separatist ideas to further political agendas. In fact, separationist language has been used for discriminatory, exclusionary or narrowly partisan ends throughout the history of this nation, so please do not try to colour the issue as black and white.

Certainly from a perspective of "yeah for the separatists, down with those crazy, zealot Christians" the Church/State relationships seem "reasonable and moderate".

This whole thing comes down to one person's statement that "The US constitution says the state shall not promote one form of religion over another. The Soviet Constitution sets forth the seperation of church and state." and your claim that good old Jefferson - who obviously is the begining and end of all matters Constitutional - said that just isn't so (using what I consider to be an over-used and, when taken out of context, historically erroneous quote). Statement of fact: the Constitution does NOT state that there shall be a "separation of church and state". We could argue until we are blue in the face what the intent of the framer's was using quotes. Personally I think that borders on sophistry.

Hirvimaki-Isi

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Tiannia on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 4:22pm

on 11/02/04 at 15:34:16, floridian wrote:

There is viable truth behind forcing them to treat all religions the same. Why is it that the Mormon Church can get a permit to have a fair at a City run Park, but a group of Wiccans can not get the same thing for a Beltain celebration.

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by floridian on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 4:41pm

If separation arguments are applied consistently, they are not discriminatory or unfair. The problem arises when a politically powerful church applies to use a public park and gets a permit, but the minority does not. The problem is either is a lack of a neutral standard, or a bias in enforcing the standard.

Jefferson's quote taken out of context? I don't think so. A group of ministers wanted him as president to lead a day of prayer, and he said no, not the president's job. He cited the first ammendment and used the words "separation of church and state" to explain his understanding of the Constitution. As he wrote a majority of the text in the Constitution and understood the compromises that led to the document, I think his opinion is significant.

The fact that the Soviets put in wording for separation of church and state is irrelevant. The US Constitution was written long before the Soviet Constitution, and the US concept of separation of church and state is nothing like the Soviets official atheism and repression of the Orthodox church. Anyone that says so is a liar.

Quote:

Robertson favors church-state separation --for Iraqis, but not in United States

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va.--Pat Robertson has expressed a newfound appreciation for the separation of church and state.

The televangelist who previously has mocked the notion that the United States Constitution requires such a separation told his "700 Club" audience March 17 that separation of church and state is essential in a reconstituted Iraq.

"The thing the president of the United States has got to keep in mind is, under the Ba'ath party, Iraq was a so-called secular state. That's why many of the Islamic nations don't like (Saddam Hussein). If the United States tries nation building, it's got to (have) at the very top of its agenda a separation of church and state. There has to be a secular state in there and not an Islamic state. If they let an open vote, and let the Shi'ites for example take a vote, they will probably have the majority, and (under) one-man one-vote will say, we'll go in for shariah, and the next thing you know, you've got a mini-Iran in there."

Robertson added: "So it's going to be absolutely imperative to set up a constitution and safeguards that say we will maintain a secular state much like what Indonesia has, but to respect the faith of all the people in there, including the Sunni and the Shi'ites and the Christians and the Assyrian Christians, whatever, and the Kurds. Very important."

For decades, Robertson has insisted church-state separation is found in the constitution of the old Soviet Union, but not in the U.S. Constitution. He has insisted the United States was founded as a Christian nation.

In a speech at the Christian Coalition "Road to Victory" Conference Oct. 12, Robertson said, "We have had a distortion imposed on us over the past few years by left-wingers who have fastened themselves into the court system. And we have had a lie foisted on us that there is something in the Constitution called separation of church and state."

Robertson's apparent turnabout to prescribe separation of church and state as essential for Iraq is "startling," according to one the televangelist's chief critics.

"Pat's conversion shows there is hope for even the most wayward soul," quipped Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "I sent him a letter of congratulations and an Americans United membership application in today's mail. We are always looking for new supporters, especially those with the kind of financial clout that Robertson has."

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/3_24/print/robertson.html

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Tetris-addict on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 7:52pm

SO smile as you drop a buck or two into the collection plate....In GOD We TRUST....on every piece of silver or greenback printed in the good old USA. You do not haveto be Christian to live here, butyou darn well had better not kill your neighbor to sleep with his wife....

just follow the 10 commandments to make the world
a better, safe, saner place...
and tell the church you gave at the office.....

PEACE!

It comes back to you....

KARMA

It comes back to you....

Time you waste arguing about it....
well, that time is lost, and it won't come back to you

Lead the horses to water....
but don't get offended if they do not drink.

PEACE!

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by nani on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 7:59pm

Hirv and floridian- you are at it again. Stop throwing your high IQ's around our simple posts or I shall have to beat both of you about your heads with large leather bound volumes. ;;D Cantcha just be like the rest of us and form your opinions solely on hearsay, political action group and Madison Ave political commercials! [smiley=laugh.gif]

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by floridian on Nov 2^nd, 2004, 8:54pm

on 11/02/04 at 19:52:29, Tetris-addict wrote:

Well, I personally think 9 commandments make for good law - most places have laws against murder, theft, etc regardless of their religion. Having no god but the God of Moses isn't good law - not even sure that Trinitary Christians worship that God and only that God - they believe in a mystic trinity that includes Jesus, and is not acceptable to the original keepers of the commandments. But then, if government isn't involved in religion, government doesn't have to worry about which doctrines are acceptable to whom.

Also, Gordon Gecko said "greed is good" - capitalism won't enforce any laws against coveting, so maybe we should drop to 8 commandments. Striving to get more and the quarterly consumer spending numbers are a big part of our economic system. No symbolic proclamations of our Judeo-Christian heritage is going to change that.

PS - the "In God We Trust" was added to coins during the Civil War, when Lincoln decided it was so important to state that God was on our side as we slaughtered each other. In God We Trust was not added to paper money until 1957. More symbolism that is irrelevant to real morality and the health of our society.

Peace out ...

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Nov 3^rd, 2004, 9:14am

on 11/02/04 at 11:45:04, nani wrote:

OK my [smiley=twocents.gif]

The constitution calls for seperation of "church" and state,

Not to wrinkle anyones underwear here but, could someone please qoute the section from the constiution that calls for the seperation of Church and State? I have still not seen the actual wording of it. Does this wording even exist???

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 3^rd, 2004, 9:24am

The words "separation of church and state" do not appear in any of America's founding documents. They do not appear in the First Amendment, nor were they heard during the debate and framing of the First Amendment according to Congressional Records (June 7 - September 25, 1789).

Amendment I: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for redress of grievances."

Thomas Jefferson was in France as an ambassador during the Constitutional Convention that ratified the First Amendment. However, some of Thomas Jefferson's words in a private letter eleven years after the ratification of the First Amendment have been used to form the modern concept of "separation of church and state". Thomas Jefferson's words, "thus building a wall of separation between church and state", appeared in a private letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802, trying to assure them that the federal government would not and could not try to establish a national denomination. His words are often taken out of context, the original intent of his words not resembling the modern concept of "separation of church and state".

Hirvimaki-Isi

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by floridian on Nov 3^rd, 2004, 11:40am

Quote:

“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

On the other hand, when government makes a proclamation that there is one god (or 20), it can only be seen as a government intrusion into the sphere of religion. You can run to the dictionary and claim that it isn't 'establishing' a religion merely to promote particular doctrines or symbols, but of course, you are assuming a particular definition of the term establish (exclusive establishment of a state church) which is not what the constitution says. The word establish also means to bring about, stabilize or promote, introduce or put in force.

Quote:

It would be happy for mankind if religion was permitted to take its own course, and maintain itself by the excellence of its own doctrines. The divine Author of our religion never wished for its support by worldly authority.

James Iredell, Wednesday, July 30, 1788. The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution [Elliot's Debates, Volume 4]

James Iredell was appointed to the Supreme Court by President Washington in 1790 and served until his death in 1799.

Title: Re: Those wacky Wiccans! Blessed be!
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 3^rd, 2004, 12:26pm

And if that doesn't anwer the question as to which "section from the constiution...calls for the seperation of Church and State"... oh, wait! it doesn't!

And those Clay County Wiccans are still defending the County.

Hirvimaki-Isi