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(Message started by: alleyoop on Oct 29th, 2004, 1:01pm)
Title: Why are we at war?
Post by alleyoop on Oct 29th, 2004, 1:01pm
Why we are at war.  Some of you may not approve of the Iraqi war, and  I
>hope
>this em ail doesn't offend anyone, but it's the BEST explanation  for the
>war
>that I've  ever read, and I feel I must pass it on .  This is the BEST
>explanation of WHY we are  AMERICA, the Home of the  Brave and the Land of
>the FREE!
>
****************************************THE QUESTION OF WHY WE ARE AT WAR**********

>The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know  why we were at war. My
>husband looked at our son and then looked  at me. My husband and I were in
>the
>Army during the Gulf War and we  would be honored to serve and defend our
>country again today. I knew  that my husband would  give him a good
>explanation.
>My husband thought for a few minutes and then told  my son to go  stand  in
>our front living room window. He told him:
>"Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"
>"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses."  he replied.
>"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and  our yard is the  United
>States of America and you are President Bush."
>Our son giggled and said "OK."
>"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every  house
>and
>yard on this block is a different country"  my husband said.
>"OK Dad, I'm pretending."
>"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man
>come
>out of his house with his wife and he has  her by the hair and  is hitting
>her. You see her bleeding and crying.  He hits her in the  face, he throws
>her on
>the ground, then he starts to kick her to death.  Their children run out
>and
>are afraid to stop him,  they are crying, they are watching this but do
>nothing because they are kids and afraid of  their father. You see all of
>this
>son....  what do you do?"
>"Dad?"
>"What do you do son?"
>"I call the police, Dad."
>"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take  your
>call,
>listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help.  What do you do
>then
>son?"  "Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son  starts to whine.
>"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place  or
>your
>place to get involved and that you should  stay out of it," my husband
>says.
>
>"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
>"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay  out of it. Now I want you
>to look out that window and pretend you see  our neighbor who you're
>pretending
>is Saddam turn around and do the  same thing to his children."
>"Daddy...he kills them?"
>"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"
>"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door
>neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.
>"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is  happening and refuses to get
>involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my
>husband
>says.
>"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"
>"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?"  Our son starts to cry.  "OK, no one wants to help
>you,
>the man across the  street saw you ask  for help and saw that no one would
>help you stop him. He stands  taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he
>does
>next son?"
>"What Daddy?"
>"He walks across the street to the old ladies  house and breaks down  her
>door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and  sets her house on  fire
>and
>then...he kills her. He turns around and  sees you standing  in  he window
>and
>laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?"
>"Daddy..."
>"WHAT DO YOU DO?"
>Our son is crying and he looks down and he  whispers, "I close the  blinds,
>Daddy."  My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him...
>"Why?"  "Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to  help...people who
>needs
>it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are  supposed  
>to
>HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop  
>him...I'm
>afraid....I can't do it by myself .Daddy.....I can't look out  my window
>and
>just watch him do all these terrible  things and...and.....do
>nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so I can't see what
>he's doing........and
>I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."
>I start to cry.
                          (continued)
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by alleyoop on Oct 29th, 2004, 1:02pm
My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking
>pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells
>him...."Son?"
>"Yes, Daddy."
>"Open the blinds because that man.... he's at  your front  door..."WHAT DO
>YOU DO?"
>My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in  his eyes. He  balls up
>his
>tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he
>says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY
>SISTER,
>DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"
>I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he  grabs my son to his chest
>and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him,  he's  too
>strong
>and he's already at YOUR front door  son.....you should have  stopped him
>BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to  do what's right, even if you have
>to do it
>alone, before......it's too late." my  husband  whispers.  THAT scenario I
>just gave you is WHY we are at war  with Iraq. When  good men stand by and
>let
>evil happen is the  greatest EVIL of all.  Our  President is doing what is
>right. We, as a free  nation, must  understand  that this war is a war of
>humanity. WE must remove evil men from  power  so that we can continue to
>live in a
>free world  where we are not afraid  to look out our window. So that my
>nine
>year old  son won't grow up in  a  world where he feels that if he just
>"closes"
>that  blinds the  atrocities  in the world won't affect him.  "YOU MUST
>NEVER
>BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT!  EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"  BE PROUD
>TO
>BE AN AMERICAN!  BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT!  BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!
>SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!!   SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL
>NEVER
>HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR  BLINDS...."
>"The liberty we prize is not American's gift to the world, it is God's gift
>to humanity." George W. Bush





"As soon as we think with integrity we will realize that we are all properly stewards and that we cannot with integrity deny our responsibility for stewardship of every part of the whole." M. Scott Peck, M.D.

......................alley
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by eddie on Oct 29th, 2004, 1:11pm
your story really touched me
thanks :'(
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by JDH on Oct 29th, 2004, 1:12pm
So what about N Korea, Iran, Sudan etc...do we take on the whole world?  [smiley=huh.gif]

Jim
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by notseinfeld on Oct 29th, 2004, 1:14pm
gheesh Alley, I got caught off guard and actually choked up. Thanks for the post!
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by ExplodingEyeBall on Oct 29th, 2004, 1:51pm
Wow!!! That was a great post.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by BarbaraD on Oct 29th, 2004, 2:38pm

on 10/29/04 at 13:12:42, JDH wrote:
So what about N Korea, Iran, Sudan etc...do we take on the whole world?  [smiley=huh.gif]

Jim



And where are we going to get the troops to take on the whole world as it looks like we're about to do? Who's going to defend OUR country? We've got people in THIS country going to bed hungry, who can't buy medicine and need AID. Why are our tax dollars going to help people who've had 2000 years or more to defend themselves.

My daddy always said, "The Good Lord helps them what helps themselves."

Nice story but I still can't see one American life being wasted in Iraq.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by JDH on Oct 29th, 2004, 2:50pm

on 10/29/04 at 14:38:46, BarbaraD wrote:
And where are we going to get the troops to take on the whole world as it looks like we're about to do?


Can you say "reinstate the draft"?


Quote:
Who's going to defend OUR country?


Certainly not the National Guard...they're all in Iraq.


Quote:
We've got people in THIS country going to bed hungry, who can't buy medicine and need AID. Why are our tax dollars going to help people who've had 2000 years or more to defend themselves.


Well said Barb.


Quote:
My daddy always said, "The Good Lord helps them what helps themselves."


Amen


Quote:
Nice story but I still can't see one American life being wasted in Iraq.


once again, Amen.

Jim
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by vig on Oct 29th, 2004, 3:00pm
It IS a great story, but it DOESN'T answer why are we at war THIS time.

"WE must remove evil men from power so that we can continue to live in a free world."

It's a great thought, but it's NOT our policy to do this.
We have NO intention of going into North Korea, CHina, CHeCHnya or ANYWHERE else.

I believe we were correct to go to Yugoslavia and Kosovo to HELP remove Slobodan Mlosevic, but we didn't START that, we assisted and had global support.  We didn't this time and we made more enemies than friends in the process.

We learned, in general, in Somalia, that this can be a terrible practice and until we are appointed the world's policeman, we stand by.

Heck, using this analogy, I could say that we don't even food, clothe, protect, and educate our OWN kids first.

We WERE attacked by Al Qaeda.  We did NOT capture Osama Bin Laden.  A link between Al Qaeda and Iraq WAS inferred by the Bush administration several times.  Statements WERE made by the Bush administration that Weapons of Mass Destruction were NOT alleged, but FACTS (yes, Colin Powell probably regrets making that statement)  All of the arguments for entering Iraq are still specious at best and the cost is turning out to be humongous; in lives AND dollars.

my $.02
alright, back to my corner
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by JJA on Oct 29th, 2004, 3:06pm
Now son, imagine that neighbor has a garage full of oil...

Sorry, I had to say it.

Jesse
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by floridian on Oct 29th, 2004, 3:13pm
>> Daddy, why did you get so angry when Mr. Afghanistan mistreated his wife and
>> daughters, but when Mr. Saudi does the same thing, you just look the other way??

Kids say the darndest things.  :-[
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Oct 29th, 2004, 3:25pm

on 10/29/04 at 15:06:11, JJA wrote:
Now son, imagine that neighbor has a garage full of oil...


You may have come close to answering the the question as to why the we at war in Iraq and not " N Korea, Iran, Sudan etc." Most governments in the Middle East are illegitimate or only somewhat liberalized. (The exceptions are Israel and Turkey, which count as free countries - though Turkey barely squeaks in: Freedom House rates it only "partly free," albeit improving.) True, there are other countries which have equally illegitimate governments, but the Middle East is of vital interest because it stands astride the bulk of world oil reserves. So two overriding principles must shape our policy there. The first is to see our free allies secure. The second is to ensure the freedom of the oil trade on which the industrial economies depend. If you really think that is an amoral or dishonest reason for us to be there, you don't understand the world and our place in it. Defending commerce is not a dishonorable cause, as some people claim. Material goods are the soil in which our lives and our achievements must grow. These are both idealistic-yet practical-moral principles: each upholds the international society of political and economic freedom that best serves our interests in the long run.

[smiley=twocents.gif]

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by JJA on Oct 29th, 2004, 3:41pm

on 10/29/04 at 15:25:56, Hirvimaki wrote:
The second is to ensure the freedom of the oil trade on which the industrial economies depend.


Fair enough.  Why won't Bush say that?

Jesse
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by M on Oct 29th, 2004, 3:52pm
That original post was an excellent explanation. In fact, I think it is the best explanation of why we are at war. I really like the idea of explaining international relations in terms of a neighborhood (I have a degree in international business and speak six languages - I try to read or watch the news in Engligh, Dutch, German, and Spanish).

Interestingly, your husbands metaphor of neighbors is exactly why I think that going to war was such a bad idea. I think that your husband's metaphor, however, gives us a good vehicle to talk about this whole thing.


>"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take  your  
>call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help.  

Actually, the U.N. did not refuse to help. They were working on Sadam and making good progress. You saw this in news all over the world except for U.S. news (I know because I was traveling back and forth from the U.S. at the time - you saw only a portion of the facts on U.S. news). You see, weapons inspectors had secured approximately 90% of the weapons in Iraq. In late 2002, Hans Blix and other inspectors including Americans said that they were still making progress. Blix supported the U.S. use of a military threat because he thought it helped put needed pressure on Sadam. But Blix did not see a need for a full scale invasion. He and most of the rest of the world agreed that it would be counter-productive.

To use the metaphor, there were already several neighbors in the troublemakers house figuring out how to deal with the problem and making progress. Things were not perfect, but things were improving, and there was no imminent threat from that neighbor. His next door neighbors were certainly not complaining - not even his arch enemy who lived two houses down.

It's strange, when you explain that we didn't need to invade, some people respond, "What are we supposed to do? Nothing?"

The choice was not between war and nothing. When is that ever the only two choices? There were MORE than just two choices. Doing nothing was not a good choice, I agree. But going to war was one of the worst choices. That is what our neighbors were trying to tell us 18 months ago. Instead of listening with reason, we called them cowards.

Also, the U.N. is not like the police. There are 192 countries in the world, of which 191 participate in the U.N. (The only country who is not a member is Vatican City.) The U.N. is like a neighborhood association, not the police.

If you tell your son that the U.N. is the police of the world, then you do not understand how the U.N. works. The U.N. has no official authority over any country, any more than your neighborhood association can tell you how to run your household.

The U.N. is just a bunch of countries communicating and making treaties with each other in order to coexist peacefully and protect the neighborhood; just like a neighborhood association. The U.S. helped to create the U.N. after WWII. We created the U.N. because we didn't want to see another Nazi-like invasion of Poland or another Pearl Harbor. Those were preemptive attacks. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because Japan's politicians convinced the military that the U.S. was getting ready to attack Japan. Same thing in Germany - the people in Germany were united by politicians who told them that they were under imminent threat from communist terrorists, and that Poland was attacking. (I know this from personal interviews with friends in Germany, but lots of history books explain the same thing.)

>"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get
>involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my  
>husband says.

Okay, good point. You see this neighbor (who by the way is not across the street, but more like four blocks down) torturing people in their own household. You ask neighbors to go in and intervene with violence. They say that they are not prepared to go in with violence. Your neighbors (allies) explain that they live closer to the guy (right next to him in some cases) and that there are other solutions. Your neighbors explain to you that it is not a good idea to go invade this guy yet.

Why do they refuse? Are their blinds drawn even though they live closer to the guy? Or, do they know something that you ought to listen to?

You see, all your neighbors know, and have told you, that about one third of the people in that house don't want you to come in. Your neighbors know that we will not be welcomed as liberators, but rather seen as invaders. Lots of people in that house don't want to be 'rescued.' You will create more violence in the neighborhood by 'rescuing' those people. In fact, if you go into that house with violence, one third of people in that house will fight you to the death.

Furthermore, if you go into that house to 'save' the people in it, you will kill a lot of the people that you say you are trying to help. You will kill innocent people (about 13,000 in Iraq as of Aug.2003, including women and children). To make things worse, when you kill those innocent people in that house, the other family members who used to like you will now turn against you because you killed their innocent brothers and sisters.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by M on Oct 29th, 2004, 3:53pm
[continued from previous post ....]

>NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT!  EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"  BE PROUD  
>TO BE AN AMERICAN!  BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT!  BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!!
>SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!!   SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL  
>NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR  BLINDS...."

Also, remember that in our little neighborhood, the U.S. is the dominant miltary force. According to the Department of Defense, we have military bases in 140 countries. Our defense budget is more like an offense budget: we spend as much as the next 27 countries combined.

I too wish Americans would open their blinds. If more Americans opened their blinds it would be obvious that attacking Iraq in Spring of 2003 was about the worst thing we could have done for Americans, Iraqis, and the rest of the world. There is one group, however, that did benefit by our invasion: the extremist Islamic fundamentalists. Our invasion has pushed away the moderate Muslims who were on our side after 9/11, and given the extremists more fuel for their cause.

Instead of chanting "Go America Go!" maybe we should look at facts, and make decisions based on reason, not nationalistic jingoism or pride. Excessive national pride led to a lot of pain in the twentieth century.


> When  good men stand by and  
>let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all

I completely agree with you. And I think that killing innocent people is not the best way to confront evil. There were other more effective solutions in Iraq that did not require war. But Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz were not interested. Back in 1988, they wrote a letter to Clinton asking him to attack Iraq, which had nothing to do with terrorism or WMDs. (See Rumsfeld's own web site: www.newamericancentury.org.) And Wolfowitz has been advocating attacking Iraq since the mid 1980's.

I believe that your husband is honorable and has good intentions. My friends, we have been duped. Our good intentions and our desire to protect our country are NOT why we are at war. For all of our sakes, please do your homework, and make your voice heard.

I know that it is a tough problem. The neighborhood metaphor is a really good start for rational discussion. And perhaps we can remember the admonition from the Bible, "Thou shalt not side with the powerful against the helpless." I think that we are both saying the same thing. We just need to get the facts straight.  Okay, I think I need to lay down now before I get a headache. :-)    -M
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by nani on Oct 29th, 2004, 3:54pm

Quote:
ensure the freedom of the oil trade on which the industrial economies depend


We only continue to depend on oil because the oil industry has insured that there is no research into viable and renewable alternatives. Another case of the few getting rich on the backs of the many. (...and that includes us as the biggest consumers of oil in the world.)What will happen to the Middle East when we've used up all the oil? I have a feeling no one will give a rat's ass then.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by IndianaJohn on Oct 29th, 2004, 4:01pm

on 10/29/04 at 15:25:56, Hirvimaki wrote:
The second is to ensure the freedom of the oil trade on which the industrial economies depend.
[smiley=twocents.gif]

Hirvimaki-Isi


True.  Free trade and commerce have been the cause of war before.  But what was the threat prior to this one.  Iraqs military was crippled.  Saddam Hussein didn't control 2/3 of his own country.  This war was on the Bush agenda before he took office.  And now our young men and women are dying.  For what?  To ensure the global oil supply?  It wasn't threatened before we invaded.  This war was ill advised and unwarranted.  Now our military is stretched so thin that if Iran or North Korea decide to start making trouble (the countries that have or are developing nuclear weapons), we will be ill prepared to deal with them.


Just my [smiley=twocents.gif]

John
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Oct 29th, 2004, 4:13pm

on 10/29/04 at 15:41:28, JJA wrote:
Why won't Bush say that?


Hmmm... asking me to crawl inside the head of a Republican is like asking me to crawl inside the head of a Democrat. Ideologically I am pretty far removed from both parties. But at the core, isn't every politician just that, a politician? I'd say it is political expediency to not say what people just don't want to hear.

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Jeepgun on Oct 29th, 2004, 4:18pm
Why are we at war? Hrmmmm.... Maybe THIS might have just a tiny little something to do with it:
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/day.video.09.html
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by don on Oct 29th, 2004, 4:18pm
When did we become the world Police?

Hitler tried that. Didn't work out so well.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by JJA on Oct 29th, 2004, 4:20pm

on 10/29/04 at 16:13:40, Hirvimaki wrote:
I'd say it is political expediency to not say what people just don't want to hear.

Then would you say he's lying about why we are in Iraq or just not telling the whole truth? People are fighting and dying based on what Bush says.

Jesse
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by M on Oct 29th, 2004, 4:48pm

on 10/29/04 at 16:18:07, Jeepgun wrote:
Why are we at war? Hrmmmm.... Maybe THIS might have just a tiny little something to do with it:
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/day.video.09.html


Hey Jeepgun, thanks for jumping in. You provided a link to CNN's page titled, "Day of Terror Video Archive." Lots of stuff there about 9/11 terrorists who attacked us.

According to the 9/11 Commission Report, 26 al-Qaida terrorist conspirators sought to enter the United States to carry out a suicide mission. In the end, there were 19 hijackers in all. 15 came from Saudi Arabia. The remaining four came from Egypt, the United Arab Emirates and Lebanon. According to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, this distribution reflected the proportions of trainees at al-Qaida camps. They were also chosen because they could easily obtain U.S. visas for Saudi citizens.

0 from Iraq.  That's zero terrorists from Iraq.

Again, you brought up 9/11, and I am so glad because you must know this fact. The terrorist attack itself was planned by Khalid Sheik Mohammed and approved by Osama bin Laden, a Kuwaiti and a Saudi living in Afghanistan.  

0 terrorist organizers from Iraq. That's zero terrorists organizers from Iraq.

In fact the terrorist organizers viewed Sadam as an enemy. Thank you for bringing up the facts that show that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, which means that attacking Iraq was a distraction from fighting the terrorist organization behind 9/11.

Thank you Jeepgun for making the point that Iraq was a mistake.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Mark C on Oct 29th, 2004, 5:03pm

Quote:
Bin Laden directly admitted for the first time that he carried out the Sept. 11th attacks and promised to outline "the best way to avoid another Manhattan."  



Quote:
"We decided to destroy towers in America," bin Laden said, referring to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks that destroyed the World Trade Center


Osama Bin Laden....

Look here. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137095,00.html)



Quote:
“All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration
of war on God, his Messenger, and Muslims. . . . [T]he jihad is an individual
duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. . . . As for the fighting to
repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is
a duty. . . . On that basis, and in compliance with God’s order, we issue the
following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their
allies—civilian and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can
do it in any country in which it is possible to do it.”
                                                       — Osama bin Laden et al., in “Declaration of
                                                            the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against
                                                            the Jews and Crusaders,” 23 February 1998



The 1,300-Year Battle between Christians and Muslims (http://www.ied.info/books/why/1300.html)


Evil does exist in this world.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by floridian on Oct 29th, 2004, 5:05pm

on 10/29/04 at 15:25:56, Hirvimaki wrote:
Defending commerce is not a dishonorable cause, as some people claim. Material goods are the soil in which our lives and our achievements must grow. These are both idealistic-yet practical-moral principles: each upholds the international society of political and economic freedom that best serves our interests in the long run.

[smiley=twocents.gif]

Hirvimaki-Isi


You are assuming that commerce is good.  Commerce is merely activity. Some activity is good because it does supply the materials goods we need to live, or otherwise improves our lives.  Other commercial activity is destructive or enslaving.  You said you only consider two countries in the Middle East as free (Israel and Turkey).  Trading with the monarchs and dictators who had enough guns to secure the oil supplies in the other Middle East countries perpetuates their hold over the peoples there.  Is that good?  
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Melissa on Oct 29th, 2004, 7:20pm

on 10/29/04 at 16:18:20, don wrote:
When did we become the world Police?

Hitler tried that. Didn't work out so well.


Now Don, the police (especially in America) are there to protect EVERYONE.  Hitler was NOT a policeman, he was extremely prejudice about who should live or die.  Anyway, read this:


Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage in Internet culture that was originated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states that:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. In addition, whoever points out that Godwin's Law applies to the thread is also considered to have "lost" the battle, as it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. Many people understand Godwin's Law to mean this, although (as is clear from the statement of the law above) this is not the original formulation.

Nevertheless, there is also a widely-recognized codicil that any intentional invocation of Godwin's Law for its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

Godwin's Law is named after Mike Godwin, who was legal counsel for the Electronic Frontier Foundation in the early 1990s, when the law was first popularized. Richard Sexton maintains that the law is a formalization of his October 16, 1989 post

You can tell when a USENET discussion is getting old when one of the participents (sic) drags out Hitler and the Nazis. Strictly speaking, however, this is not so, since the actual text of Godwin's Law does not state that such a reference or comparison makes a discussion "old," or, for that matter, that such a reference or comparison means that a discussion is over.

Finding the meme of Nazi comparisons on Usenet illogical and offensive, Godwin established the law as a counter-meme. The law's memetic function is not to end discussions (or even to classify them as "old" ), but to make participants in a discussion more aware of whether a comparison to Nazis or Hitler is appropriate, or is simply a rhetorical overreach.

Many people have extended Godwin's Law to imply that the invoking of the Nazis as a debating tactic (in any argument not directly related to World War II or the Holocaust) automatically loses the argument, simply because these events were so horrible that any comparison to any event less serious than genocide or extinction is invalid and in poor taste.




;;D ;)
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by ShariRae on Oct 29th, 2004, 7:20pm
IMHO BarbaraD said it best for me...
Huggs
Shari
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Ree on Oct 29th, 2004, 8:32pm
OK lets say that is the explaination as you say... Well lets just say that you're defending "your house" (as in the story) and your getting more exhausted and more exhausted everyday and your getting sick and tired and watching your friends blow up every day... you could have someone else come in but the leader says no you cant have that leave that you were promised, then that leader says you have to take off your clothes and run out there naked and face this crazy guy next door... Well that's my sequel to that touching story.  That may be where we were the day after 911 but as I see it if WE had stayed in Afghanistan WE wouldnt be fighting Alqueda in Iraq right now.  Even AS a CHILD we are told to play with ONE THING AT A TIME. Most of the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq right now are part of Alqueda.
 Well I'm all for freeing oppressed people.  I'm all for stopping Weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION... but if a kid has been over there 12-18 months and his family is suffering here what are we getting this country ready for.  What will our country be like when these depressed and DIVORCED citizens end up on welfare or under some bridge somewhere.  We are charging these kids for their own treatment in the VA hospitals.  We have to finish what we started, yes I do believe that but... let's be fair in the process. Lets treat those brave VOLUNTEERS like the gifts that they are to this country.  Let's not send them out there with out armor.  Let's let not tease them with a promise of a trip home after 9 months there, and tell them their leave isn't happening (as is my friend Cody Smith who has been on the front for all 9 months)~~~
~~and enough with the War threads your talking to someone that doesnt just watch this in their living room but feels it in her heart every day.  My son is a brave young OFFICER and I couldn't be prouder but his stint just got extended too. I see every day he is there and makes it through as WINNING THE LOTTERY. See where it says 6 more months under my avatar, well if you noticed I haven't change that... I hope it doesnt say 6 more months for 6 more months. My son Sean is hoping to come out and start his life here in July and use up all the college that the military has promised to this brave young Sgt. We are hoping they don't extend him and make him go back to Iraq with his guys when they leave in March... I am facing more than a touching email... I could be writing those touching stories everyday.  
  Love to you all... after tonights tape of MR Bin Laden, sometimes, I feel like we are at square one again.  If we had stayed in Afghanistan and finished what really made 911 occur, we would be in a different place today... Ree
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by E-Double on Oct 29th, 2004, 8:40pm
Very Well Put Ree!!!!!!!

Best to you and your family.


Eric
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by vig on Oct 29th, 2004, 8:41pm
"My son is a brave young OFFICER and I couldn't be prouder"

I'm proud of both of you Ree...
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by alleyoop on Oct 29th, 2004, 9:52pm

on 10/29/04 at 20:32:21, Ree wrote:
~~and enough with the War threads your talking to someone that doesnt just watch this in their living room but feels it in her heart every day.


Ree, I feel your pain- although I'll never feel it in the way that you do. What I'm trying to say is that I think we all feel your pain in your words. I hope you know that I never intended to increase your pain in any way!My sincere prayers are with you, Scott and your family.

...........................alley
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by john_d on Oct 29th, 2004, 11:18pm
I definitely wish we would kill Bin Laden.  Iraq is a big WTF to me.  But I am hoping W will come through and kick his ass next.  To me, Kerry is scary ( and I am not talking about his head).
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by BobG on Oct 30th, 2004, 12:13am
I heard that, when John Kerry is elected, Maria Teresa Thiersten Simoes-Ferreira Heinz Kerry will buy Iraq and screw Cheney out of his Haliburton Oil trust fund?

Sure hope so!
8)
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by M on Oct 30th, 2004, 12:50am

on 10/29/04 at 20:32:21, Ree wrote:
If we had stayed in Afghanistan and finished what really made 911 occur, we would be in a different place today... Ree


Yes.

Ree, based on the facts, I am a very big critic of this administration's decision to attack Iraq. I have family in the military also. Please know that I am proud of our fellow citizens who put their lives on the line for our country. Please know that every one else that I know who criticizes this administration, does not extend that criticism to our troops. We cannot blame our troops for the deception of Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz.

I hope your son returns safely.


on 10/29/04 at 23:18:06, john_d wrote:
Iraq is a big WTF to me.


How can you say WTF to having lost over 1,000 soldiers lives in Iraq? If it was unnecessary, you should fire the guy who sent them there.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by JDH on Oct 30th, 2004, 1:03am

on 10/30/04 at 00:50:04, M wrote:
How can you say WTF to having lost over 1,000 soldiers lives in Iraq? If it was unnecessary, you should fire the guy who sent them there.


It's on my "things to do list" for Tuesday  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by nani on Oct 30th, 2004, 1:10am

Quote:
Please know that I am proud of our fellow citizens who put their lives on the line for our country. Please know that every one else that I know who criticizes this administration, does not extend that criticism to our troops.


Ditto. I feel that if a young person commits themselves to serve to protect our country ( I admire their bravery and commitment), it is the responsibility of our leaders to think long and hard about the choice to put them in harm's way.

Ree- my prayers are with you, your family, Scott and all the others who have been deployed.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Charlie on Oct 30th, 2004, 2:09am
George Bush did not go to war with the wrong creep for such reasons. He, like countless irresponsible leaders in history, have used tragic incidents as devices to increase power through real but mostly perceived fear.  It works. It's nothing new. You and I are in more peril from Patriot Act zealots than Muslim terrorists. Fear never has to regroup.

Someone said nearly 30 years ago, that he looked forward to the day when we won't need so much oil and we can relegate these countries to the relative obscurity to which they belong. It’s not quite so simple today but an example of not learning from mistakes and like no other, George Bush refuses to learn.  As I’ve said: If Bush gets off the elevator on the wrong floor, it’s the fault of the building. Countries led by such careless men have sad histories. This war is being fought three countries away from where the enemy is likely to be hiding.

One cannot outlast insurgents and people who have lives too difficult to spend time studying political science. Very few of them have any real idea nor particularly care who we are or are interested in us. My God; what a careless display of ego. These people have all the time in the world.

On September 10th, it was George Bush who was President, no one else. This needs to be emphasized.

Charlie
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Tom K on Oct 30th, 2004, 9:29am

on 10/30/04 at 02:09:26, Charlie wrote:
On September 10th, it was George Bush who was President, no one else. This needs to be emphasized.

Charlie


It is...daily...but the world isn't like it used to be on Sept 10th.   WE WERE ATTACKED.  Do you get it?  Should I type it slower so you can understand.  We were attacked during the "presidency" of Clinton, too.  Don't you realize that?  WTC 1, The Cole, our emabassy's...are we supposed to just let people blow up our shit and do nothing?  How many of our guys died in Somilia?  They dragged our guys, naked through the streets.  2 of my friends were killed there.  Where is the outcry?  And what happened?  We pulled up stakes and bailed.  My friends died for no damn reason, other than some lieing, cheating, chicken shitted bastard was too afrid to look bad on the world stage.  How many people were oppressed in Kosivo?  But that was ok.  What kind of fucked up logic do you Dems use to let you sleep at night?  It's ok to spend $10B more money in Kosivo, in less time, and do nothing, because nothing has changed, but going into Iraq is bad.  And drop the Haliburton thing.  Clinton gave more non-bids to Haliburton then Bush did, period.  And one last thing before I step off the soapbox...there isn't going to be a draft.  It was put up for a vote to shut up Kerry...one Democrap voted for it.  Stop listening to Moore.  

T
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Root on Oct 30th, 2004, 9:55am
Governments tend to like war, Why? Hell I don't know. They just seem to be that way.
The Germans and the French don't seem to like the US much. The Japanese Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere appears to be winning.

YMMV
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Rock_Lobster on Oct 30th, 2004, 11:54am
Congratulations... I will offer my non-partisan view.

Here is a superior version of that story...

Walk outside... look at the neighborhood... blah blah blah.

On the left side of our house is Mrs Darfur Africa.  Oh look.. rebels just killed her husband.  Oh my... now they are gang fucking her and her children!  Wooo weee!  Shit... the rebels just took all their food!  Wow... that has been going on for a long time, little Billy!  I wish they would just fuckin move!  I am closing that fucking blind right now!

On the right side of our house is Mrs Iraq.  Hmmm... nobody starving.  Lawn looks nice.  They are not under Sharia... strict Islamic law that, as one flaw, treats women like dogs.  Fairly high standard of living.  Pretty content, although their form of government irks me and many of their people.  We better help, little Billy!  Send your friends though, because we would not want you to get hurt!

Thus, the original note failed to touch me.  I call bullshit.  Plainly, my IQ did not qualify me to fall for that yarn.  Knowledge sucks... knowing what is going on in the world outside of only the US & Iraq.



Learn:
(Darfur) The government, trying to put down a rebellion, has sent aircraft to bomb its own people, then militiamen have swooped in to rape, kill and pillage. At least 50,000 people have died and 1.6 million have fled in the past 18 months.
  

Learn:
Just south of Sudan’s border in Uganda, another catastrophe simmers: 10,000 children have been kidnapped by militiamen, thousands of women have been raped and 2 million people have been displaced in the fallout from civil war. Tens of thousands have died. Each night, parents send their children by the thousands to sleep in guarded compounds so they won’t be abducted by rebels and turned into soldiers or sex slaves.


Learn:
The first critical factor is the geopolitical importance of the individuals or place involved. Kosovo, because it was in Europe, received quick attention. So did Afghanistan - after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States. But if disaster happens someplace where no countries have a strategic stake, Egeland’s experience has shown that few will care.

 
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by mynm156 on Oct 30th, 2004, 12:42pm
What about Israeli and the Palestinian conflict,  There are Waring factions in Africa and all over the world.  We Pick and choose by what is in OUR best intrested.  It rarely has anything to do with defending anyones intrests but what a politician says is our own.  

WAR SUCKS!!!

To all serving and to all that have served THANK YOU and God Bless You.

MYNM156
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by john_d on Oct 30th, 2004, 12:48pm

on 10/30/04 at 00:50:04, M wrote:
How can you say WTF to having lost over 1,000 soldiers lives in Iraq? If it was unnecessary, you should fire the guy who sent them there.


very easily, get some more posting under your belt and we will discuss
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by JDH on Oct 30th, 2004, 1:00pm

on 10/30/04 at 09:29:50, Tom K wrote:
It is...daily...but the world isn't like it used to be on Sept 10th.   WE WERE ATTACKED.  Do you get it?  Should I type it slower so you can understand.  We were attacked during the "presidency" of Clinton, too.  Don't you realize that?  WTC 1, The Cole, our emabassy's...are we supposed to just let people blow up our shit and do nothing?


What part of "Iraq had nothing to do with this" don't you understand?
I have no problem going after the people who did these things BUT you and Dick Cheney seem to be the only ones who think Sadamm was a threat to us.......and btw I was typing slowly so you could understand  ::)


Quote:
And drop the Haliburton thing.  Clinton gave more non-bids to Haliburton then Bush did, period.


So that makes it OK?  
talk about fucked up logic.  [smiley=huh.gif]

Jim


Edit:

on 10/30/04 at 12:48:50, john_d wrote:
very easily, get some more posting under your belt and we will discuss


WTF does that have to do w/anything?
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by john_d on Oct 30th, 2004, 1:12pm
it has nothing to do with you JDH, that's for sure.  What it means is that I hate talking politics to begin with and I am not going to discuss with someone who I have no idea who they are or where they are coming from.

my original quote


Quote:
Iraq is a big WTF to me


'to me'- you see how I am able to say 'this is MY opinion'.  

I appreciate logical arguments, I appreciate opinions, frankly some of the dems around here make alot of good sense. But attacks- like 'wtf are you thinking' or 'your logic sux', is BORING and NON-PERSUASIVE.       
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Pegase on Oct 30th, 2004, 2:05pm

on 10/30/04 at 13:12:54, john_d wrote:
it has nothing to do with you JDH, that's for sure.  What it means is that I hate talking politics to begin with and I am not going to discuss with someone who I have no idea who they are or where they are coming from.

I agree with you bro... Eventhough this guy seems to know politic deeply (and for me.... seems to be logical), he's using a harsh way to introduce himself to new friends ;)

my original quote


'to me'- you see how I am able to say 'this is MY opinion'.  

I appreciate logical arguments, I appreciate opinions, frankly some of the dems around here make alot of good sense. But attacks- like 'wtf are you thinking' or 'your logic sux', is BORING and NON-PERSUASIVE. 

Also agree... everything is in the way things are said... some people are just not able to communicate with others in a respectfull way... Why... because they don't respect themselves... To those I say.... STFU sometimes ;)      


Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by jminmilwaukee on Oct 30th, 2004, 2:44pm

Quote:
WE WERE ATTACKED.  Do you get it?  Should I type it slower so you can understand.


Yeah! That darn Saddam and his Saudi pilots. Got what he deserved if you ask me!  :o

Seriosusly, commerce? World Police? Canada had better fortify their borders as America is rapidly running out of lumber!  :-/

Bush misled the entire nation and although I do support every last troop in Iraq or anywhere else, this is nothing more than the sensless slaughter of MANY innocent Iraq citizens and American children whome have'nt even had the chance of savoring thier first legal beer.

Bush is a greedy son of a b@#ch who is the back pocket of the true enemy, Saudi Arabia. Not to mention his record on domestic issues.

There is a special place reserved for him....

Just my 2c

Oh yeah, get out there and vote!

Peace - jmin
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Charlie on Oct 30th, 2004, 9:37pm

Quote:
What kind of fucked up logic do you Dems use to let you sleep at night?


Wars shouldn't be started by countries like ours for political reasons. They are though. If you want to follow this kind of thinking, however: WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, have one thing in common. The Presidents who declared or began these wars were all Democrats. It doesn't take a Republican to send men in harms way.

Charlie
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by clarence on Oct 31st, 2004, 3:14am

on 10/29/04 at 14:38:46, BarbaraD wrote:
"The Good Lord helps them what helps themselves."


Theologically, this statement fits well with a American civil religion in general, however, some might argue the opposite completely - namely, that the Good Lord helps those who do not deserve it.  The attitudes and actions of the concepts of  Grace and Mercy would be what describe this.  Mercy being God not giving someone what they deserve, and Grace being God giving someone what they do not deserve.

I am not, in any way shape or form using religion to justify any military action anywhere.  I would like to, however, clarify an alternative religious perspective on the way God deals with humanity.  The concept of "pulling oneself up by his or her own bootstraps" seems to be a tenant of American civil religion, and can be a beneficial concept in relation to trying to better oneself.  On the other hand,  to look at the way God deals with humanity, one would have to observe parables like The Good Samaritan, The Lost Sheep, or The Prodigal Son.  This is, of course, speaking from a "Christian" perspective.  Other religions would have differing views of how God interacts with humanity.

Sorry for the tangent.  One of the hazards of studying theology.

Casey
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by M on Oct 31st, 2004, 3:52am

on 10/30/04 at 13:12:54, john_d wrote:
it has nothing to do with you JDH, that's for sure.  What it means is that I hate talking politics to begin with and I am not going to discuss with someone who I have no idea who they are or where they are coming from.

What do you want to know?

I'll give you a  little info by telling you that 9/11 was not my wake up call to terrorism. My wake up call was on December 21, 1988, when Pan Am Flight 103 crashed into Lockerbie Scotland. I watched from my mom and dad's house in El Paso, having flown out of London only 7 days earlier. I knew full well that it could have easily been my plane that was bombed. My friends in London and I talked about it extensively over the following years.

Since then, I have been through several evacuations and bomb scares in European airports, including waiting on an airplane on my way to Prague in 1996. We remained grounded so that bomb sniffing dogs and the bomb squad could go through the cabin and perform a passenger and luggage count. As many of you know, terrorism was a world wide problem long before 9/11.


on 10/30/04 at 13:12:54, john_d wrote:
I appreciate logical arguments, I appreciate opinions, frankly some of the dems around here make alot of good sense. But attacks- like 'wtf are you thinking' or 'your logic sux', is BORING and NON-PERSUASIVE.        

I never use such accusations. Name calling is not productive. I have not said anything like "wtf are you thinking," nor "your logic sux," so I assume that you are not talking about me.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by BarbaraD on Oct 31st, 2004, 8:04am
M
I think you're making my point exactly. We NEED TO FORTIFY our own borders before we go after the rest of the world.

I too have been in a few bomb scares in airports and in London on the underground (they evacuated the train I was on because the next station had been bombed) - talk about close.

But attacking another country doesn't help us protect ourselves.

We're doing a lot of talk about airport security, but anyone who's come into the country lately knows this is the easiest country in the world to get in to. For three years we've had a chance to get our act togther and still we've not done it.

Now, with the war in Iraq, we've united the radical Moslems into a jehid (or how ever you spell - holy war).

We should have learned from history.
BD
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by john_d on Oct 31st, 2004, 1:01pm

on 10/31/04 at 03:52:50, M wrote:
What do you want to know?

I'll give you a  little info by telling you that 9/11 was not my wake up call to terrorism. My wake up call was on December 21, 1988, when Pan Am Flight 103 crashed into Lockerbie Scotland. I watched from my mom and dad's house in El Paso, having flown out of London only 7 days earlier. I knew full well that it could have easily been my plane that was bombed. My friends in London and I talked about it extensively over the following years.

Since then, I have been through several evacuations and bomb scares in European airports, including waiting on an airplane on my way to Prague in 1996. We remained grounded so that bomb sniffing dogs and the bomb squad could go through the cabin and perform a passenger and luggage count. As many of you know, terrorism was a world wide problem long before 9/11.

I never use such accusations. Name calling is not productive. I have not said anything like "wtf are you thinking," nor "your logic sux," so I assume that you are not talking about me.



thanks,  if you get a chance to introduce yourself and let folks know about your CH status I think you would be grandley welcomed by the good folks here, welcome aboard.

It was not directed at you,  or anyone person in particular though I am sure it appears that way.  I just regret bringing up the name of a political candidate in what was a very nice thread.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by jimbo on Oct 31st, 2004, 10:00pm
I would have to agree with jiminmilwaukee about Saudi Arabia being the true enemy. It is my belief that 9/11 was the retaliation by the Saudis for Bush pulling Colin Powell off of the, don't quote me (League of Nations). From what I understand, they liked him because he was pretty much of a straight shooter with them most of the time and it pissed them off when he was removed.

Maybe someday our goverment will also tell us about the dead hole zones in our oceans where nothing lives or grows due to the ozone depletion crisis.

Seeya,

Jimbo
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by floridian on Nov 1st, 2004, 8:15am
Why are we at war? The man Bush hired to ghost-write his book "A Charge to Keep : My Journey to the White House" speaks out on what heard during 20 interviews with Bush and numerous interviews with other administration officials:


Quote:
"He was thinking about invading Iraq in 1999," said author and journalist Mickey Herskowitz. "It was on his mind. He said to me: 'One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief.' And he said, 'My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait and he wasted it.' He said, 'If I have a chance to invade….if I had that much capital, I'm not going to waste it. I'm going to get everything passed that I want to get passed and I'm going to have a successful presidency."

...

According to Herskowitz, George W. Bush's beliefs on Iraq were based in part on a notion dating back to the Reagan White House – ascribed in part to now-vice president Dick Cheney, Chairman of the House Republican Policy Committee under Reagan. "Start a small war. Pick a country where there is justification you can jump on, go ahead and invade."

Bush's circle of pre-election advisers had a fixation on the political capital that British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher collected from the Falklands War. Said Herskowitz: "They were just absolutely blown away, just enthralled by the scenes of the troops coming back, of the boats, people throwing flowers at [Thatcher] and her getting these standing ovations in Parliament and making these magnificent speeches."

http://www.maconareaonline.com/news.asp?id=8971


Starting a war to increase the personal popularity and political power of the president ... sounds like treason to me.  
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 8:50am
[thread hijacking]


on 10/31/04 at 22:00:17, jimbo wrote:
...the ozone depletion crisis.


Sigh. Stratospheric ozone is not a fixed and finite resource but is constantly created - and destroyed - by solar radiation. The "ozone layer" is not some delicate, static and fragile wrapping about the outer atmosphere but rather a dynamic and highly volatile component, both created and destroyed by solar radiation. Ozone creation is a continuous process, so we can not "run out" of stratospheric ozone. The more ozone (O3) is destroyed, the more free oxygen radicals (O1) are available to bind with free oxygen (O2) to create ozone (O3), the same applies with free oxygen (O2). Just think, life flourishes in the tropics, where stratospheric ozone levels are never high and where solar radiation bombardment is roughly 1,000 times higher than that received in the region of the Antarctic Ozone Anomaly which gets all the attention in the media.

[/thread hijacking]

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 9:03am
Just so I've got this straight, because I want to make certain I pull the right level tomorrow:

President Bush is evil, and like Hitler, and responsible for the (supposed) ozone depletion because he personally misled us into war - despite the fact that Kerry, Clinton and everyone else believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, based on the same now-known-to-be-flawed intelligence?

I thank God that I am not stupid enough to think I have only two choices when I walk into that voting booth.

Monday mornings never used to make me so grumpy.

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by floridian on Nov 1st, 2004, 9:35am

on 11/01/04 at 09:03:58, Hirvimaki wrote:
Just so I've got this straight, because I want to make certain I pull the right level tomorrow:

President Bush is evil, and like Hitler, and responsible for the (supposed) ozone depletion because he personally misled us into war - despite the fact that Kerry, Clinton and everyone else believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, based on the same now-known-to-be-flawed intelligence?

I think God that I am not stupid enough to think I have only two choices when I walk into that voting booth.

Monday mornings never used to make me so grumpy.

Hirvimaki-Isi


Bush and company are not 'responsible' for ozone depletion, global warming, or other environmental problems.  They are unable or unwilling to accept the science behind these problems, to even admit there is a problem.  


Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush's administration distorts scientific findings and seeks to manipulate experts' advice to avoid information that runs counter to its political beliefs, a private organization of scientists asserted on Wednesday.

The Union of Concerned Scientists contended in a report that "the scope and scale of the manipulation, suppression and misrepresentation of science by the Bush administration is unprecedented."

"We're not taking issue with administration policies. We're taking issue with the administration's distortion ... of the science related to some of its policies," said the group's president, Kurt Gottfried.


Your spin on ozone chemistry would draw red ink in any chemistry class ...

Freon and CFCs shift the equillibrium of the oxygen/ozone equation - one molecule of CFC can persist for hundreds of years, and catalyze the break down of a huge number of ozone molecules.  

The ozone shield is thinning everywhere - including the tropics and mid-latitudes.  Most agricultural crops show decreased yields with increasing UV - not a good thing when the population of the Earth is 6.x billion and on its way to 10-12 billion in in the next 40 years.  

The fact that tropical areas get far more ozone than the polar areas is little consolation to plants and animals that evolved for millions of years to live with low UV levels, but that now find themselves exposed to much more.


Quote:
The more ozone (O3) is destroyed, the more free oxygen radicals (O1) are available to bind with free oxygen (O2) to create ozone (O3), the same applies with free oxygen (O2).


Yes, and if you have apnea and stop breathing, that actually means that there is more oxygen available for you to to breath in.  The critical thing in both cases is the amount of oxygen actually in the blood, or the amount of ozone actually in the stratosphere - not the theoretical potential.   In fact, the free oxygen radicals (singlet oxygen) is more likely to combine with other singlets to form plain O2 than to form ozone.  CFCs shift the reaction energetics and lead to a reduction in the amount of ozone - that is a simple scientific fact not suited to spin.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by floridian on Nov 1st, 2004, 9:43am

on 11/01/04 at 09:03:58, Hirvimaki wrote:
...  because he personally misled us into war - despite the fact that Kerry, Clinton and everyone else believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, based on the same now-known-to-be-flawed intelligence?

Hirvimaki-Isi


The decision to wag the dog was not made from a prudent interpretation of the intelligence.  
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 9:51am
Good to know that you are a self-declared spin-free prophet.

I'd be thrilled to hear what you have to say about UVA, deep skin DNA changes, melanomas and ozone. Might as well throw in some impressive facts about global warming and how it has caused an increase in landfalling hurricanes.

It's good to have such an erudite master to lead me away from my folly.

Hirvimaki-Isi

PS:

on 11/01/04 at 09:43:40, floridian wrote:
The decision to wag the dog was not made from a prudent interpretation of the intelligence.  

See, without your guidance I would have taken a statement like that as spin. Good to know you are spin-free.
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by floridian on Nov 1st, 2004, 10:18am

on 11/01/04 at 09:51:13, Hirvimaki wrote:
I'd be thrilled to hear what you have to say about UVA, deep skin DNA changes, melanomas and ozone. Might as well throw in some impressive facts about global warming and how it has caused an increase in landfalling hurricanes.

It's good to have such an erudite master to lead me away from my folly.

Hirvimaki-Isi


Of course there is a big difference between scientific matters and political value judgements.  Most of us have no problem distinguishing between those.

There is a scientific consensus that CFCs are negatively impacting the ozone.  Just like there is a scientific consensus that evolution is a real process that explains life on Earth, or that smoking increases the risk of cancer.  

DNA changes and melanoma from UV - yeah, those are problems too.  Glad you mentioned them.


Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 10:28am
Actually, I wrote "UVA", but why quibble, right? UV is UV is UV... (Sigh, again.)  ;;D

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by floridian on Nov 1st, 2004, 10:46am

on 11/01/04 at 10:28:50, Hirvimaki wrote:
Actually, I wrote "UVA", but why quibble, right? UV is UV is UV... (Sigh, again.)  ;;D

Hirvimaki-Isi


Your absolutely right ... UV is UV, why quibble??  There are some differences between the bands, but:


Quote:
Both UVA and UVB rays cause damage, including genetic injury, wrinkles, lower immunity against infection, aging skin disorders, and cancer, ...  

http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_causes_melanoma_000032_2.htm


Good thing there are options in the ballot box. I find the Constitution Party to be fascinating. That's where the true conservatives are headed.

www.constitutionparty.com
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 11:31am

on 11/01/04 at 10:46:53, floridian wrote:
Good thing there are options in the ballot box. I find the Constitution Party to be fascinating. That's where the true conservatives are headed.

The Constitution Party is fascinating. And yes, it is a very good thing there are other options available to us in the ballot box. As I have stated before, my political ideology does not fall within the confines of either the Democratic or Republican parties and never has.

BTW, UVA (UV in the 320-400 nanometer band) is implicated in deep skin DNA changes thought responsible for melanomas and is not blocked by ozone at all. UVB (270-320nm), which causes sunburn, is both blocked by ozone (O3) and, if allowed to penetrate the atmosphere, creates ozone lower in the atmosphere where it can be an irritant in photochemical smog - thick clouds also block UVB. UVC (<270nm), which would cause severe burns with short exposure, does not penetrate the atmosphere, blocked completely by atmospheric oxygen (O2), in addition to ozone (O3).

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by nani on Nov 1st, 2004, 12:19pm
[smiley=huh.gif]  Allright Hirv and floridian.. I used to think I was a fairly intelligent and well informed. I now feel like a slug, cuz you guys are waaaay too smart for me. Now I'm grumpy, too. :(
;;D
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 12:43pm
Sorry, Nani! Floridian and I just like hitting each other with big, leather-bound books every once in a while - it keeps our wits sharp! We don't mean any harm.

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Tom K on Nov 1st, 2004, 2:33pm

on 11/01/04 at 09:35:04, floridian wrote:
Bush and company are not 'responsible' for ozone depletion, global warming, or other environmental problems.  They are unable or unwilling to accept the science behind these problems, to even admit there is a problem.  



Damn, I'm glad we got global warming because back in the mid '70's, we were going to freeze our asses off in the next ice age.  Remeber Global Cooling?  It's called a hot/cold cycle.  The earth goes through them, has for all of time.  Now we are in a warm phase.  In 15 to 20 years we will be in a cold phase.

Got....Chicken Little, yet?

T
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 2:47pm
Ah, global warming. Relative to when? We don't live in a static environment.

Near-surface thermometer temperature readings have been recorded, in some places for centuries, and these do indicate a longer-term warming trend. What is not often mentioned is that this trend is founded in a period that history tells us was particularly cold and unpleasant, the Little Ice Age (LIA). So, has the globe warmed relative to a baseline in the LIA? Yes. Is this bad? Only if you like crop failures, famine and attendant miseries.

Climate change is a fact and perfectly normal. Our little blue-green planet undergoes massive, sometimes ponderous change from major glaciations (ice ages) to interglacial periods (warm and life-friendly periods such as now, this one is called the Holocene). Change is the normal state for climate.

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 1st, 2004, 2:54pm
So, to sum up, boys and girls: It's either warm enough to run around naked, or it is not. Be safe, now!
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by nani on Nov 1st, 2004, 3:07pm
[smiley=gocrazy.gif]

Thanks Frank. These brainiacs are making me nuts. Can you keep translatin' for me? ;;D
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 1st, 2004, 3:11pm
Sure! But be warned, everything boils down to whether it can be done in the nude or not.  ;;D (I lead a simple life...) LOL
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 3:12pm
Brainiac? No, no, no. I'm nothin' but an uneducated hispanic/latino/mexican/chicano. Or something.

And I always vote in favor of anything that will increase the naked-running-arounds on this here rock.

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by nani on Nov 1st, 2004, 3:17pm
Hey - I'm all for nudity... but trust me- no-one wants to see nani runnin' around naked. [smiley=eek.gif]

Hirv- your sister in latino-ness  Viva La Raza!
Jeep- your sister in clusterness  Viva la Oxygen!

nani
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Hirvimaki on Nov 1st, 2004, 3:30pm
Viva oxígeno...

Two birds with one stone...  ;;D

Hirvimaki-Isi
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 1st, 2004, 3:32pm
All your oxygen (and boobies) are belong to us!  [smiley=laugh.gif]
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by nani on Nov 1st, 2004, 3:36pm

Quote:
Viva oxígeno...


Hmmmph - bi-lingual, too.

My boobies are spoken for. and they be long.

;;D
Title: Re: Why are we at war?
Post by Jeepgun on Nov 1st, 2004, 3:48pm
ROFL!


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