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Title: The beast and the night.................... Post by Sean_C on Oct 7th, 2004, 8:16pm I was just curious, what causes all of us to get clusterheadaches when we hit REM sleep? Anybody know? I could use some new reading material if you have any. Thanks peepes Sean................................ |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Sean_C on Oct 7th, 2004, 8:28pm Bueler....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Bueler....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................Bueler ;;D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by K-9 on Oct 7th, 2004, 8:42pm Anyone.............................................Anyone..................??? Sorry, couldn't resist. Hey, I'm new here so I don't have any links or specific info for ya. I would be willing to guess that no one is secifically linking this to sleep since a large number of people do ONLY or ALSO get hit in the daytime, therefore ruling out that as a cause, similar to the " some of us smoke, and some of us don't" theory. For me it generally hits about 1 hr after sleep right at the beginning of REM stage sleep, but I've also found that if I don't go to sleep and I just lay there and watch t.v., No sleep, no REM, I still get hit in about an hour!!! Go Figure!?!? Good luck with finding more on this topic, it'll be interesting reading!!! :) |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Jonny on Oct 7th, 2004, 8:50pm Sean dude, shrink your post dude......this thread is Way fucked up ............................jonny |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Kris_in_SJ on Oct 7th, 2004, 8:54pm Sorry - no new links. They're already here someplace. What I have read, links the onset of night hits (or nap hits) with REM sleep. So .... just as you're getting to that REALLY nice place where good dreams are starting to happen .... BAM! That's why Melatonin helps many nighttime sufferers - it interrupts the normal REM stage - at least I read that someplace .... Kris |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Sean_C on Oct 7th, 2004, 9:02pm on 10/07/04 at 20:50:28, Jonny wrote:
Hows that ;;D LMAO Sean............................ |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Sean_C on Oct 7th, 2004, 9:04pm on 10/07/04 at 20:42:31, K-9 wrote:
;;D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by vig on Oct 7th, 2004, 10:23pm I think if they knew why that happened, they'd be well on their way to figuring this out. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Charlie on Oct 8th, 2004, 1:39am I think it's just a change in chemistry when you fall asleep. Just a guess though. Charlie |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Superpain on Oct 8th, 2004, 2:17am Something to do with decreased levels of adrenaline and increased levels of... seratonin...??? Maybe... Or something like that. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Gator on Oct 8th, 2004, 10:44am There is also supposedly a high instance of sleep apnea amongst clusterheads. The apnea usually reveals itself during REM sleep. The low O2 saturation in the blood due to apnea may be triggering the attacks, at least for some. Gator |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Bob P on Oct 8th, 2004, 11:17am Quote:
Did a search for REM hypothalamus and got lots of hits, most way too technical for me. I'd look to that freakin hypothingy for the answer. One article said that REM is when you get your night woody. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by don on Oct 8th, 2004, 11:45am REM sleep ? Its the one thing thing that doesn't effect us while we are awake. Brain activity. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Donna_H on Oct 8th, 2004, 12:44pm I thought we were talking about REM sleep, not golf. What? OH! (blush). I know I've seen articles re: the decrease in oxygen when we are asleep and breathing slower, thus causing a ch. Also please see the post "RE:The beast and the night" where this thread continues. Bob, you're not giving yourself the credit you deserve on this one. Where are all of the articles you posted on Serotonin and the 5 horsepower whatever? Even if you feel they are not related, I think the newer membership would appreciate that info and perhaps find more answers themselves in the archives. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Bob P on Oct 8th, 2004, 2:36pm Here's another article in the OUCH Library: http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/serotonin/sleep.htm Geez, all that 5HT talk was years ago in the old message board. I do have tons of 5HT articles on my hard drive at home. Hope someday to sort through them and make some sense of it all. These articles basically say that during REM, 5HT production stops. Since 5HT controls the contraction of the smooth muscle surrounding the blood vessels it could be that the lack of 5HT allows the blood vessels to expand, putting pressure on the nerve and causing the pain. Just a guess. Could also be that REM makes the hypothing do strange stuff and cause the attack. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by JJA on Oct 8th, 2004, 3:06pm I always thought the attacks came with REM sleep because of the sudden increase of blood flow. http://www.sro.org/pdf/2916.pdf This article doesn't mention CH but, but tells a little about increase in cerebral brain flow during REM sleep. I think Bob P's serotonin comments are interesting. I'm not sure how long it would take the stopping of serotonin production to affect serotonin release, but that seems like a good guess. Jesse |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Jeepgun on Oct 8th, 2004, 3:40pm I thought maybe it was related to getting wood. Not enough blood getting to the hypothalumathingie, resulting in one bi-yotch of a headache... :o ;;D Maybe that's why only men get cluster headaches. *ducking and dodging hurled produce, laughing my azz off...* [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Bob P on Oct 8th, 2004, 4:10pm Actually Jeep, I was being polite. The article also said it is when the ladies get clitoral hard-ons. Here's one where it says REM doesn't matter: http://www.pahlow.net/temp/narcolepsy.pdf |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by ArCane on Oct 8th, 2004, 4:18pm on 10/08/04 at 15:40:32, Jeepgun wrote:
ROFLMAO!!! [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Donna_H on Oct 8th, 2004, 4:24pm Great start Bob, and thanks. I know you did tons and tons of work in research. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Jeepgun on Oct 8th, 2004, 4:34pm on 10/08/04 at 16:10:24, Bob P wrote:
Actually, I knew that, too. [smiley=laugh.gif] (I actually retained SOME of my physiology classes!) ;) |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Bob P on Oct 8th, 2004, 5:06pm I agree with ya though on the "only men ...." |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Donna_H on Oct 8th, 2004, 5:35pm Hey girls..gather 'round the campfire. Now, what was that about "only men?" They whine at a Kip 4? Margi................and Miss Holloway, and.......... H E L P ! |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Sean_C on Oct 9th, 2004, 1:24pm Living with the beast during the day is one thing.......... Living with the fear of sleep is another............. ALL of us have this in common..............100%, as far as I know regarding the wake-up clusters, and I wanted to gather some info...............thanks for the links and info you guys have gathered over the years ;;D Sean................................ |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by maria9 on Oct 9th, 2004, 7:33pm Ok, I'll bite on this one....."only men get clusters"... K. Ekbom, conclusions from the Cluster Club meeting in Rome 9/2003, ..."the male preponderance of CH has been shown to be progressively decreasing over the years."... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15274514 I wonder why? You males have been claiming this malady as your own, over the years, so the females with this disease have been improperly diagnosed over the last 4 decades at least. Surely another example of a malecentric and male perpetuated phenomenon. And one more thing, you guys think you have the corner of the market in terms of suffering. And while a few of you males might agree that some females maybe, just maybe, might have cluster headaches only males can truly suffer from cluster headaches. Ok guys put that in your pipe and smoke it! ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D, Marsha (an episodic who had 130+ headaches in her last 7 week cycle) |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by john_d on Oct 9th, 2004, 8:02pm errr, problem with men, hon? on 10/09/04 at 19:33:00, maria9 wrote:
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by maria9 on Oct 9th, 2004, 9:06pm John_D, notice if you will all the smileys ;;D, been married to the same guy for 26 years and have two sons 18 and 21, too much male preponderance in this household as well. But hey, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. ;;D Marsha ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D and just for an extra measure for you John_D ;;D ;;D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by john_d on Oct 9th, 2004, 9:19pm on 10/09/04 at 21:06:16, maria9 wrote:
since you went the extra mile I will pay extra notice John |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Jeepgun on Oct 9th, 2004, 9:24pm The increase in women with cluster headaches is interesting. Cluster headaches are also known as the "executive headache." With women increasingly rivaling the numbers of men in the workplace, and holding a great many more executive positions over the course of last twenty-five years, I wonder if that's some kind of contributing factor? Women are now rivaling men in other stress/workplace related illnesses: Heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure, etc. Is it that more women are coming down with clusters, or is it that they are only now beginning to be properly diagnosed? I'm mostly thinking aloud, here... I don't even know if stress and clusters are even related. I can find no correlation between the two in my own experience... Anyway, FWIW.... |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Bob P on Oct 10th, 2004, 7:47am Or the females are becoming more manly. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Jonny on Oct 10th, 2004, 12:56pm on 10/10/04 at 07:47:26, Bob P wrote:
LMMFAO!!!!.....Yup ;;D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Redd715 on Oct 10th, 2004, 1:06pm on 10/10/04 at 07:47:26, Bob P wrote:
:o Bite me Bob!!!! ;;D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by cschick on Oct 10th, 2004, 2:05pm [smiley=laugh.gif]quote "or the females are becoming more manly".... I wondered why I had tht hair growing out of my chin all the sudden. That explains it all. [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Donna_H on Oct 10th, 2004, 5:22pm I've been hearing for years and years guys complaining that their wives have had headaches at night. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by maria9 on Oct 10th, 2004, 7:59pm quote by Bob P: or are the females becoming more manly Sadly Boob or Bob P is onto something here, cschick, during menopause as the estrogen shuts down all that is left is minute traces of testosterone in the female, thus lending itself to chin hairs and the belly problem that males often suffer from. After menopause gone are the days of big fat asses and thighs, in its place are beer bellies (ever seen a lady in her 70's or 80's with a fat ass?). Sad but true and remember you heard it here first. Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news. And just for you John D ... ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D. Oh, and cschick, it is likely that you will have a mild case of the chin hairs and the Rigley Circus will not be auditioning you for their next bearded lady. Hey wishing you all well my partners in pain, Marsha |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Bob P on Oct 11th, 2004, 8:36am Here's an article on treating CH with testosterone: http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/medications/testosterone.htm Maybe it's that guys who get ch are girlie men? (not often I can offend everyone in a single thread but I may just have done it) |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Kevin_M on Oct 11th, 2004, 8:49am on 10/11/04 at 08:36:38, Bob P wrote:
It's called "shaving" Bob. makes the legs itchy though. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by BobG on Oct 11th, 2004, 8:56am on 10/11/04 at 08:36:38, Bob P wrote:
Only in California. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Donna_H on Oct 11th, 2004, 9:30am I've been trying to convince you yo-yo's it's all testosterone related since 1999. If any new ch'ers wants to hear my personal story (again), drop me an e-mail or IM. I haven't had a ch since my hysterectomy and I also have a lot more to substantiate my theory. Bpb-----you're my biggest debater against testosterone. I'm surprised that you posted that link. Maybe hardening of the arteries as we grow older really DOES also have something to do with it. Girley girl, Dpnna Oh--another thought-----it's the hypothalamus that regulates hormones. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Bob P on Oct 11th, 2004, 10:15am The quandry here is that most guys develope ch in their late teens/early twenties. This is when they are pumping out testosterone like John Kerry does lies. Their sole goal in life is to find someone to play hide the woody with. If testosterone stops ch, you would think that young men wouldn't get ch but older men would. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by BobG on Oct 11th, 2004, 10:25am on 10/11/04 at 10:15:49, Bob P wrote:
So what you're saying is now that you are older you can't get it up? That's ok, George can't either. :D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by vig on Oct 11th, 2004, 10:32am or da Coach Ditka.... |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Bob P on Oct 11th, 2004, 10:34am Quote:
When it comes to woodies I'm sure 'you can hold your own'. ;;D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Jonny on Oct 11th, 2004, 10:37am on 10/11/04 at 10:34:10, Bob P wrote:
And if not, im sure Don and the L street crew will help you out ;) |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Donna_H on Oct 11th, 2004, 11:03am Men are so vague about.....lifes self induced pleasures.....they have all these multi names and resources. I'm so lucky that Mr. Potato Head has been so faithful. But, of course, he hasn't had a lot of choice what with being locked in the closet. He never complains tho, ......he just hums with pleasure when he gets attention. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by don on Oct 11th, 2004, 11:08am Quote:
So there you have it Bob. Get a hysterectomy. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by maria9 on Oct 12th, 2004, 11:46pm OK, so you are all wondering why I resurrected this one ;;D ;;D ;;D, thanks John D, I wondered that myself. ;;D ;;D. Now believe me, I am not questioning the girly guys on their levels of testosterone, I would not do that! not in a million years! I mean who would have the nerve to ask a cluster dude about his manliness? Certainly not me, so back off dudes! No, I can only speak to the femaleness of this very rare disorder, well I am here to say guys like it or not you will have to share this rare disorder with us, I know, I know, you enjoy your spot in the limelight, but step aside dudes the time has come and the research has finally caught up with you. ;;D ;;D ;;D, Marsha ;;D ;;D ;;D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Jeepgun on Oct 13th, 2004, 8:59am There was a woman who was beginning to have some of the signs of menopause, so her doctor put her on hormone therapy. The next time he saw her, a couple of months later, he asked how she was doing, to which she replied in a deep voice, "Just fine, Doc! All of my symptoms are gone, but this medication really makes my nuts itch!" [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by maria9 on Oct 13th, 2004, 9:04pm Just giving this post a bump, a very special bump, I might add for all the nuts out there. ;;D ;;D ;;D ;;D Marsha ;;D ;;D ;;D |
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Title: eiRe: The beast and the night.................... Post by maria9 on Oct 14th, 2004, 11:33pm Hey all, Can you even believe this??? I went to a conference today on stress, pain and depression. OK, I did not get my jollies off on the topics presented, but the biggest bummer was this, the presenter quoted that cluster headaches male to female ratio is 10/1 and AND that females percieve pain at a higher level than men. Now that is certainly new information to me, now you all know that I live in a household with a preponderance of the male species, and it has been my experience that when one of them gets a minor cold or whatever, you would think the sky is falling. I repeatedly asked the presenter about this and he said yes study after study has shown that women actually percieve pain as greater than men. I am perplexed and astounded. So much for men being the weaker sex. Stay well, dream well, Marsha ;;D ;;D ;;D |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Jeepgun on Oct 15th, 2004, 9:04am My experience in the medical profession is just the opposite: While males may be more stoic when injured, I've seen women endure agonizing pain with barely a wimper. |
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Title: Re: The beast and the night.................... Post by Donna_H on Oct 15th, 2004, 10:26am It has been my experience too, that women tolerate pain much more silently than men. After surgery, when asked what their pain level is, women almost always give us a significantly lower number, although women are almost always more apprehensive than men before surgery, including me. In my case, I am scared to death of being put to sleep and losing control of my "self". I started having ch's in 1960. There wasn't a doc who was sympathetic, let alone interested in finding a real "name" to give my to complaint. I was always given Tylenol #3 (with codeine), which of course didn't do diddly squat for the pain. Never was given anything that referred to or helped ch in the whole 28 years. I too thiink the number of women with ch has always been much higher than anyone knew. Hormones, and I won't limit it to testosterone, really must play a part in this plague. |
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