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Title: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Little Deb on Sep 7th, 2004, 4:37pm political conversation! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 5:19 PM Subject: Ponder This This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard, serving in Iraq: As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.) * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations. * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war. * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur. * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster. * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August. * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq. * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war. * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war. * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place. * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city. * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets. * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country. * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers. * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs. * An interim constitution has been signed. * Girls are allowed to attend school. * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years. Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening. Ray Reynolds, SFC Iowa Army National Guard 234th Signal Battalion Is it live or is it memorex.......................Little Deb ;;D |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 7th, 2004, 4:40pm LET IT RIDE....YEE-HAAWWW!!!! ;;D .......................jonny |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Lizzie2 on Sep 7th, 2004, 4:44pm I'm all for supporting the troops overseas. However, I have also quite a lengthy printout at home stating that if Bush is reelected, he is planning on reinstating the draft in about March of 2005. I'd have to reread what I have at home to know for sure. Can't say that I don't think that is nucking futs, but that's just me! L2 the 23 year old kid with lots of 20-something year old draft eligible friends and family!!! *modified for speeelling* |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 7th, 2004, 4:46pm He neglected to mention his thousand dead buddies. //would make more sense if he were sending stupid emails from afghanistan /bush kerry pick a stooge |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by john_d on Sep 7th, 2004, 4:51pm on 09/07/04 at 16:44:15, Lizzie2 wrote:
i am not saying it will never happen, but only congress can do that L2 |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jeepgun on Sep 7th, 2004, 5:44pm We have done a great thing in Iraq and it is producing wonderful things for the Iraqis, and for the entire region, as well. Look at Iran: The "Mad Mullahs" are scared to death. There is no way that freedom can ever be silenced. Suppressed in one place, it breaks out in another. It is every human being's birthright. The world can say whatever it likes, but the long view of history will show that what we and our allies have begun in Iraq and Afghanistan, was the beginning of the end of global, international terrorism. Let Freedom Ring! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 7th, 2004, 5:47pm on 09/07/04 at 17:44:23, Jeepgun wrote:
With a shotgun blast!!! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jeepgun on Sep 7th, 2004, 5:52pm P.S. The crap about the draft is BS. John is correct: Only Congress can reinstitute the draft, and there are no plans in the works to do it, although this measure has ALWAYS been on the table since the early 70's. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Lizzie2 on Sep 7th, 2004, 6:38pm on 09/07/04 at 17:47:49, Jonny wrote:
As soon as my friend Tim comes online, I can ask him his quote that relates to this! It's pretty funny. Something about letting us have peace on earth with enough nukes, planes, etc to keep it. Wish I could remember it exactly!!! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 7th, 2004, 6:47pm on 09/07/04 at 18:38:51, Lizzie2 wrote:
Actually its the chorus of a song done by Machine Head. "Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast" Kickass beast music.....LOL ;;D .............................jonny |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by alleyoop on Sep 7th, 2004, 6:54pm See what you stirred up L.D.? Vote Libertarian! .....................................alley ;;D |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Simon on Sep 7th, 2004, 7:16pm Any chance of invading the good old United Kingdom to help us maintain some of our cherished freedoms that are fast disappearing? :) Baa |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by IndianaJohn on Sep 7th, 2004, 7:18pm What about the freedoms that are swiftly disappearing from our own country in the name of this war on terror. Or do only the wealthy get to have freedom. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Kevin_M on Sep 7th, 2004, 8:56pm on 09/07/04 at 17:44:23, Jeepgun wrote:
That's a good bullseye to shoot for. Nowhere to hide! Agree Kevin M |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 7th, 2004, 9:21pm on 09/07/04 at 17:44:23, Jeepgun wrote:
"While America's attention was focused last week on the Republican National Convention in New York, and the world was watching the hostage tragedy unfold in the small Russian town of Beslan, the prestigious British Royal Institute of International Affairs (known as Chatham House) issued a report saying a major civil war that would destablize the entire Middle East region is the mostly likely outcome for Iraq if current conditions continue." http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0906/dailyUpdate.html?s=ent2 |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by IndianaJohn on Sep 7th, 2004, 9:21pm on 09/07/04 at 20:56:15, Kevin_M wrote:
As long as we are dependent on mideast oil and we still screw around with mideast governments like we have been doing for a century - nothing will change. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Kevin_M on Sep 7th, 2004, 9:38pm on 09/07/04 at 21:21:43, IndianaJohn wrote:
I guess we'll never know what we've already prevented. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Ree on Sep 7th, 2004, 9:46pm all politics aside... Ive been living this war through 2 deployments and my views are that I just want this over. God bless the USA and OUR freedom............. love ree |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by lionsound on Sep 7th, 2004, 10:08pm First, thank you to Ray Reynolds,SFC Makes me very proud! Here's a thought.... IF we had a draft. Then maybe our armed forces population might be more spread out across economic/cultural/geographic lines. (careful here, because the incredibly wealthy will always exclude themselves) Then maybe our president and congress might think differently about who they were sending to war and why. on the flip side, maybe the rest of the country might think differently about the war itself...who and was over there and what they are doing. (Not saying I want a draft just supposing..) |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Ree on Sep 7th, 2004, 10:10pm very good point............ ree |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Kevin_M on Sep 7th, 2004, 10:18pm on 09/07/04 at 22:08:18, lionsound wrote:
They stopped college deferments (college goers exempt) back in about 1970 to try to attain that goal. The draft stopped about two years later. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jeepgun on Sep 7th, 2004, 10:21pm I've been to two wars, and have no problem going to a third and a fourth and more, if called. I would serve proudly and gladly. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by eyes_afire on Sep 7th, 2004, 11:29pm Quote:
Absolutely. I'm appalled that we are on the edge of financial insolvency and nobody does anything. We're too complacent. Instead we're funding the 'Cowgirl Hall of Fame' with taxpayer money. Unfuckingbelievable. >:( --- Steve |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 8th, 2004, 4:14am The letter from Ray Reynolds- all good news. Thanks Deb. But, unfortunately good news does not sell newspapers or prime time TV. Follow the money! Quote:
And IF the law did not allow doctors to write deferments for hang nails. And IF the law did not allow daddy to buy sissy-boy’s deferment. And IF the law did not allow college deferments. And IF the law did not allow marriage deferments. And If Canadian laws did not allow cowards to hide there. This list could go on forever. I’m done for now. But, I might be back. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by catlind on Sep 8th, 2004, 8:06am There certainly won't be a draft for the Air Force. They are currently trying to get rid of 16000 troops. They are over staffed and congress says they have to downsize. Wouldn't make much sense to put a draft in place when they are kicking people out.... Cat |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 8th, 2004, 8:22am Quote:
Sense and Congress have nothing to do with each other. ::) |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 8th, 2004, 8:40am on 09/08/04 at 08:22:57, BobG wrote:
Pro is to Con as Progress is to Congress ?? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jeepgun on Sep 8th, 2004, 8:47am You got it, Floridian! Sad but true... >:( [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Giovanni on Sep 8th, 2004, 9:28am No way we can continue on the path already started without the draft coming back. With activation of ready reserves, etc. there would be no way around this. It's a political hot potato and not mentioned now, but wait. :-/ Modified for typo |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 8th, 2004, 10:14am Quote:
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 8th, 2004, 10:27am LMAO [smiley=laugh.gif] Bob, you're trying to start a fight again, ain't ya? Maybe they don't want to be commanded by a wimp that dodged the draft and spent his military time AWOL working for a politian buddy in Alabama. But hey, if you choose to ignore that it is OK. We understand. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Woobie on Sep 8th, 2004, 10:34am on 09/07/04 at 16:44:15, Lizzie2 wrote:
Lizzie.... that email that's been goin around about that is a NON TRUTH. http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/draft.htm |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jeepgun on Sep 8th, 2004, 10:38am Yep. Check Snopes on it, too. (all hail Snopes!!) [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 8th, 2004, 10:51am Quote:
It would be interesting to see a poll/survey of the active troops. Anyone know if there's one around? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 8th, 2004, 11:09am on 09/08/04 at 10:51:58, Bob P wrote:
The admiration of W baffles me. The Bush team started a whisper campaign against McCain's Vietnam experience in South Carolina and knocked him out of the race. They trashed Max Cleland's contribution to his country with a smear campaign in a Georgia election. Their attacks against Kerry are not against his post war political activity, but against his service, and the service of the men on Kerry's boat. Quote:
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by echo on Sep 8th, 2004, 11:13am on 09/08/04 at 10:51:58, Bob P wrote:
W, as far as I can remember, is the only recent president that salutes the Marines when he boards his aircraft. I remember one occassion where he was carring his dog on board, the Marine saluted and Bush entered the plane, a few moments later he came out of the door, touched the startled Marine on the shoulder and returned the salute. I know from experience that neither Nixon nor Ford ever returned my salute. on 09/08/04 at 10:51:58, Bob P wrote:
Agreed, Kerry can kiss this Nam Vets ass!!! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by john_d on Sep 8th, 2004, 11:27am on 09/08/04 at 11:13:36, echo wrote:
hmmm, sounds like an interesting story in itself... |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 8th, 2004, 1:11pm Quote:
Speaking of the Swifties, they're just getting started. Next step is Kerry's secret meetings and negotiations with Madame Binh in Paris and his pushing the north communist's proposal for ending the war with the Congress. Again, his post service actions. I'm also sure the Dubya camp is loving it but the Swift Vets aren't "the Bush camp". Believe me, they are a bunch of Nam Vets who have remained silent too long and Kerry's proclaimed war hero status is what it took for them to speak their minds. It's not even just the swift vets anymore. If you read their message board you'll find Nam vets from every branch of the service. The self serving SOB can kiss this Nam Vets' ass too! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jeepgun on Sep 8th, 2004, 2:14pm Fukeneh, Bob!! As a vet myself (though not of Viet Nam), I would just like to say that Kerry isn't worth the powder to blow him to Hell with. And good for the Swift Boat Vets speaking up. Dammit, it's about time someone illuminated just what a communist piece of shit Kerry is! >:( Kerry is the best that the Democratic party could come up with??? [smiley=bigcry.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Gator on Sep 8th, 2004, 2:56pm Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Shit. Come on say it Deb. You just stopped in to stir up some shit. Thanks. I love it! Without getting too deeply embroiled in the fray, I will say this. I hold no party affiliation or allegience. I have studied both candidates and their prospective parties and since there is no third party candidate with a platform I like which has a snowball's chance in hell of winning, I am voting for Bush. Gator Bush may suck, but Kerry sucks harder, which would be a good thing if I was looking for a date! [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 8th, 2004, 3:27pm on 09/08/04 at 13:11:44, Bob P wrote:
Well, I can understand that you and other vets don't like Kerry. But you are not characterizing their ads honestly. They have claimed that Kerry really wasn't under fire, was barely wounded, didn't really risk much, fabricated information, etc. All of which clashes with what the people on the boat in question have to say. And their own stories are not consistent - they took medals for heroism, and now claim that nothing heroic happened. Quote:
Not the Bush camp? Maybe not legally, but the group certainly hasn't tried to maintain themselves as an independent, non-partisan group of civic minded veterans. From their legal advisors to big donors, to distributing flyers through local party headquarters, the group has Republican written all over it. People who want nothing to do with the group find their name being used on the ads. The Swiftboaters own stories don't hold up when exposed to scrutiny. Quote:
Quote:
Dishonest and dishonorable. Malicious fabrications. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by buckeyescooter on Sep 8th, 2004, 3:41pm I guess if you want a guy who was too coked out of his mind to report for his physical in Alabama, then George Bush is your guy. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 8th, 2004, 5:05pm "We will not quickly join those who march on Veterans' Day waving small flags, calling to memory those thousands who died for the "greater glory of the United States." We will not accept the rhetoric. We will not readily join the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars -- in fact, we will find it hard to join anything at all and when we do, we will demand relevancy such as other organizations have recently been unable to provide." - John Kerry Do ya think he restated that to the American Legion convention he spoke to last week. Two years later, [1984] he ran for the U.S. Senate - dusting off his veteran's credentials by standing in front of the black Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington to shoot a TV campaign ad, defying regulations that the memorial not be used for political purposes. The ad "was filmed illegally against the wishes of the National Park Service," according to the Boston Globe. Kerry authorized its broadcast anyway. -- J. Michael Waller, Insight Magazine, March 5, 2004 Kerry shit on the military back then. Today he still trys to use them for his own gain. I agree with John O'Neil and a lot of other vets, Kerry is unfit for command! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by IndianaJohn on Sep 8th, 2004, 5:16pm We should shoot'em both and start over... |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 8th, 2004, 5:33pm Quote:
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 8th, 2004, 5:40pm Who knew!? ;;D http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/kerry_rebel.jpg |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 8th, 2004, 5:44pm This is fun! ;;D http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/turbanator.jpg |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Cerberus on Sep 8th, 2004, 6:33pm I'm not a Vet, however I simply considder myself lucky. Mostly that I was born exactly when I was, too late for Nam...pure luck. I will NOT question a Vets actions, be it in the field or on the homefront, men are under higher orders when things go down...doesn't make it right, but the military would be fucked without that. Thank you to all who have served, are serving, and will in the future. Bush or Kerry...hrmmmm can't say I particularly LIKE either one, but since I am left ot choose...I choose Bush. The reason for this is simple. We are engaged in many areas of the world and have our dirty hands in ALOT of pies...some we don't even know about and may never know. WHY WOULD WE CHANGE ADMINISTRATIONS AT SUCH A CRITICAL POINT IN WORLD HISTORY? There is NO good reason...why? Because if you have done enough of your homework you would realize that a good part of the reason the WTC ( 9-11 remember that?) was bombed was because of an administration change. Bitter administration officials leaving office took advantage of the "Bush Camp" and denied any and all knowledge or intelligence it had on Terrorism and Bin Ladden. The Clinton administration knew things of Bin Ladden...hell, they failed to get him when he was essentially offered up to them after the bombing of the USS Cole. The Clinton admin. knew what was going on in Iraq...Clinton himself ordered bombing when Saddick failed to comply with U.N. resolutions. And when it was time for Clinton to go bye-bye his admin. denied any information they COULD have provided to what was happening in the world...Info that could possibly have prevented (at least lessened the damage) the entire 9-11 scenario. Does this mean that Bush is faultless? Abosolutely NOT but imagine the Snafu's created at your workplace when things arent communticated efficiently or even at all....you got it things end up fucked up. So again...why would we as the people, facilitate the probability of communication breakdowns within our government by electing a new administration? As for Kerry...from what I have seen myself and heard from as many different sources as possible...the man contradicts every thing he says...MUCH OF IT ON FILM! Here is the best part...when he is questioned on it...he avoids the issue or re-directs the blame for his own words. He simply cant be trusted...period. Can Bush? NO. But at least he knows what is going on right now. As you were... Ramon (modified to make easier to read...er sorta) |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by alleyoop on Sep 8th, 2004, 7:06pm Good Post Ramon! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,alley |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by thebbz on Sep 8th, 2004, 8:04pm Use their oil first. Gotta go with Bush/Cheney. No WMD...ha, what about the crimes against humanity on his own people. Iran next!!! I still think Bush has Osama in a closet and he intends to let him out a week before the election. Proud Veteran!!! Bad Kerry Bad. A prayer and a humble thank you to all young men and women serving in the hottest climates to protect our freedom at home. ;;D BB |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Ree on Sep 8th, 2004, 11:35pm Ramon I think you should run... I'd vote for you... love ree |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by vig on Sep 9th, 2004, 12:10am This is a tough one. To me, neither one is fit for the job. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by stevegeebe on Sep 9th, 2004, 12:10am John Kerry=Frank Burns. Steve G |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 9th, 2004, 12:32am Any lying done by Democrats pales to insignifiance compared to Bush and the GOP noise machine. You don't have to like Kerry. We have no choice. The GOP convention was reptilian. We need to vote in people who will at least stand in the way of screeching self-professed theocrats and fearmongers. It's a very real danger and as they say: it's hard to spot the loss of your freedoms in time. Little by little they fall victim to fear. All it took was the appointment of John Ashcroft for me to know that Bush has no respect for the Constitution. So far the Administration is running around the world looking for places and ways divert attention to the fact that our schools are a disgrace, our economy is a mess, and that they'll have universal health care in Baghdad and Kabul before we have it here. So far the most successful assault in the war on Iraq has been against the Bill of Rights. The President is here to serve us, not we to serve him. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 9th, 2004, 4:54am Bob P. You’re just trying to stir up trouble. You can’t possibly believe the things you are saying. Quote:
THE HELL THEY’RE NOT! Bought and paid for by the Republican Party. That O’Neil jerk is a lawyer for the party. He was first hired to stop Kerry about 30 years ago. You know that, you just fail (or refuse) to mention it. Quote:
Too long my ass. They’ve been whining for 30+ years. It’s time the babies got over themselves. They want to blame the war because they too lazy and stupid to take responsibility for their own lives. Quote:
Actually Kerry didn’t claim to be a war hero until AFTER the Bush league started the campaign attacking Kerry's military record and only then did Kerry defend himself. Quote:
Read the swift boat web site? You’ve go to be kidding! That crap is all written by the hired help of the Republican Party. Quote:
What the fuck does that mean? Are you inferring that Kerry shot himself to get a Purple Heart? You know that is a lie. Are you inferring that his wounds were not “bad” enough to earn a Purple Heart? I didn’t know there was a line that had to be crossed to be “bad” enough. Maybe Max Cleland’s wounds weren’t “bad” enough. Maybe he should have lost one more limb before he got his award. And Bob, you yourself have said that medals were handed out like candy during the Southeast Asia War Games. You’re right, BFD. So were rank and privileges. I knew a guy that got a Purple Heart for a broken ankle. He fell off an Armored Personnel Carrier. It was parked in the motor pool at the time. That was the military way then. What does that have to do with today? Bush has proven he will trample and smear any veteran to further his political career. He attacked McCain and questioned his patriotism and loyalty. (For those that may not know, McCain spent many years in a prisoner-of-war camp) He attacked Max Cleland and questioned his service, patriotism and loyalty. (For those that may not know, Max Cleland lost three limbs in the Vietnam conflict) For about the sixth time I will ask this question…………. While Kerry was Navy officer IN Vietnam, where the hell was Bush? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Melissa on Sep 9th, 2004, 8:08am What if 9-11 NEVER happened? WHAT IF? I wonder what heated debate topic you all could come up with.... In the 4 years I've been here, never have I seen so much argument between folks who come here for a common cause. Makes me wonder what it'd be like had 9-11 never existed... Nevermind, I'm going to go read the archives, them were the good ole days. mel |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 9th, 2004, 8:11am on 09/09/04 at 04:54:11, BobG wrote:
The documents include a memo from Bush's squadron commander, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, ordering Bush "to be suspended from flight status for failure to perform" to U.S. Air Force and National Guard standards and failure to take his annual physical "as ordered." WTF is up with that? When I served, my ass would have been in Leavenworth for 'failure to perform'. Hearing other former military slam Kerry while holding Bush on a pedastal is laughable. Newsflash... both these azzholes shamed the military and are unfit to command /resigned to four more years of suckage, whoever wins |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 9th, 2004, 8:20am But at least Bush and Kerry served, albeit shamefully relative to any of us. Where did these two VP fucks come from? Cheney... 5-time draft deferral bitch. He should not be allowed within 500 miles of DC, let alone hold an elected position. Edwards... 'junk science' trial lawyer. Fucking shoot us all. If you openly support either ticket, you are the poster child for the 'dumbing down' of America. Fuck... I could name a half dozen people who posted in this thread that are better suited and more deserving to lead our nation. /moving to cuba... there you get better weather with your azzhole leader |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by catlind on Sep 9th, 2004, 8:22am Since I can't vote anyway, there isn't much point in getting involved in this discussion on a political scale. However, just like in Canada, the choices are what they are, so ... If neither one is RIGHT then pick which one is LEAST WRONG. Not really much option outside of that. You can debate the failures of the candidates and the party's til the moon turns to blue cheese and it won't change your options. Cat |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 9th, 2004, 8:39am on 09/09/04 at 08:20:36, Rock_Lobster wrote:
Just wait a few days, Lobster. Hurricane Ivan is going to clear you some space in Cuba. Take a satellite phone so you can stay in touch. ;) |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 9th, 2004, 10:04am Hey Bob, I know you're feeding me these lines so I can present the facts. Appreciate it. Quote:
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Kerry will say whatever, associate himself with whomever, and do whatever he thinks will help his political career. Nam POW's report hearing Hanoi Hannah, while in the Hilton, broadcast that an American Naval Officer admitted to war atroscitys and claimed that all US military did it on a daily basis. The POW's paid for Kerry's self serving remarks. He doesn't even have the nuts to say he's sorry that what he said harmed them. Again, he can kiss my ass! Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, How the heck does such an obsesive, single minded opinion get wrapped in the term "Liberal". Websters: Liberal - not narrow in opinion or judgement. Geez, I love you guys! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Gator on Sep 9th, 2004, 10:15am on 09/09/04 at 08:22:40, catlind wrote:
Pretty much right on target. Quote:
I'm not saying either candidate is perfect. I'm not even saying either is marginally suitable, but the choices are the choices. So, what? Show 'em all and don't vote? I would hope not. Vote for someone who you know will not win? Yeah, that's taking a stand. Relieves you of the responsibility of making a choice. Quote:
Exactly. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 9th, 2004, 10:38am Bob, you should be speech writer for the Bush. [smiley=laugh.gif] Quote:
He's a Democrate HIRED by the Republicans. He is a lawyer. Lawyers are bought and sold everyday. And, believe it or not, I'm a registered Republican. And I believe that anyone that votes a straight ticket for either party just because it is 'their' party is a fool and an idiot. Quote:
He's paid big dollars to be anti Kerry. If the Democrates came up with more money that slime ball would be anti Bush. Quote:
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He was just being stupid and slow. That is a a hellava lot different from twisting it around and saying "He shot himself" Quote:
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You can read where he was. I know where he was. AWOL in Alabama. I only ask that question because I know the Bush supporters will refuse to answer and say something "You can read where he was" and then change the subject. Quote:
Very true. Sounds like a full blooded American Presidential candidate like the one that will soon be leaving the White House. Have a nice day. I'm going to Vegas. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 9th, 2004, 10:55am O'neill is a registered Republican who worked for Nixon to target Kerry. O'neill co-wrote his anti-Kerry book with with Jerome Corsi - a good old anti-catholic, anti-Jewish, gay-bashing, Anti-Arab piece of white trash. The worst scum is cloaking themselves in a cloak of patriotism. Quote:
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The leaders of the swiftboat vets are seriously screwed up individuals. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Melissa on Sep 9th, 2004, 11:09am Quote:
Read the backrounds of the Editorial Operators, it's quite interesting. http://mediamatters.org/etc/about.html BTW, stuff like this is on both "sides", always trying to discredit the other. I am tired of the us versus them attitudes lately, I want a government that works together and compromises, but that is only a hope for a distant future I perhaps will never see. I would also love to see a website that is impartial and not bias. Niether liberal nor conservative. BUT I'm sure that will only happen when pigs fly, hell freezes over and I become a best selling author. ::) *sigh* |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by john_d on Sep 9th, 2004, 11:20am I like NPR, I know hard-core conservatives claim it is liberal, but I disagree. They are very clear about when something is an editorial as opposed to actual hard news, and they really do try to be unbiased. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 9th, 2004, 11:21am Mel, That's one of the benefits of going dirty first - it puts your opponent on the defensive, forcing them to scrutinize the charges. And if people feel they are overloaded, they won't get to the bottom of the matter and determine what is true. No doubt that mediamatters has their own perspective and agenda. But the facts on O'neill come from several articles in Texas newspapers which were never disputed, and Corsi quotes came straight from his postings on the FreeRepublic website. The fact that he is a hate filled bigot is undisputable (except that Corsi now says that his posts were all 'a joke' and he didn't mean it). Hmm, scores of posts exposing his intolerant, illogical mind. But its was all a misunderstanding - and his attacks on Kerry are fair and balanced. PS - whats your book about, Mel? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Melissa on Sep 9th, 2004, 11:36am on 09/09/04 at 11:21:36, floridian wrote:
In whole, it's a suspense/thriller, which is about as best as I can describe it. I can't really give a summary, as the story unfolds in my head as I write (or tell it into my voice recorder). Nothing is pre-thought up. I am currently working on the 3rd chapter. Not an easy thing to do consistently when you have a 14 month old and stay at home... ::) :) |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 9th, 2004, 3:48pm Why should anyone but a child believe that the same group that managed to paint a flextime guardsman as a heroic commander - and a war hero as a war criminal deserve to win an election? Bush is head of his political party. Saying he has nothing to do with the untrue swift boat smears is an bald faced lie. Islamicist wackos got more than they bargained for when Bush attacked the wrong target. This group of unemployed teenagers, now have even more reason to hate us. Might has well have printed recruiting posters. Bush Repubilcans (what a shame they are in charge of a once decent party) need hate tagets. They decided to hate us. Fear and religion are the main wedges. They try to make us feel guilty for all the wrongs in society and that if we even think about taking a second look, we are unpatriotic. Only blind faith isgood, reasoned approaches are bad, liberal, anti-American, dangerous, and ungodly. We the people are the bad guys according to their playbook. As I said before: Personalize it: If you want even a prayer of minimal drug pricing restraint, you cannot vote for Bush. Kerry at least won't make it worse. Support the troops? According to the Bush crowd: You have to believe that the best way to improve military morale is to praise our combat troops in speeches while slashing veteran's benefits and combat pay..... that Saddam was a good guy when Ronald Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, and a bad guy again when George W. needed a diversion from his many failures to deal with terrorism and find Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. Cheney and Bush are unreal. They imply that John Kerry couldn't protect us from an attack like 9/11, blithely ignoring the fact that he and President Bush didn't protect us from the real 9/11. How anyone with the brains usually displayed on this board can spew the inane campaign anti-Kerry shit taken from blogs and 19th Century Fox "News" is beyond belief. The only way Bush could have hurt himself during the war was falling down the stairs in a drug stupor. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 9th, 2004, 4:26pm Ahhh, I'm never disappointed. Not speaking as a Republican nor a Democrat, just speaking as an ex Viet Nam war vet who didn't comit any war crimes and didn't see any committed. Kerry is a scumbag who jumped ship on his 'band of brothers'. I sincerely believe that he felt he had accumulated enough war memorabilia to serve him in his political carreer to come so he bailed on his other swifties. He then turned on his brothers in arms and called them criminals. He met with the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong communists and supported Madam Binh's 7 point peace plan. He can't even say that he is sorry that what he did, for whatever reason, hurt American servicemen. As a vet, I hate him as much as I do clusters (but I love you guys). |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jeepgun on Sep 9th, 2004, 4:34pm Kerry and Fonda are both cut from the same cloth, and both of them should be rotting in prison for being traitors. That is all. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 9th, 2004, 4:37pm Read all about it ;;D http://hail.he.net/~danger/kerrylied/staticpages/index.php?page=20040711225111152#cont |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 9th, 2004, 10:42pm It's okay to be a conservative or Republican. It's not okay to be nuts. I'm not and left in 1982 when it dropped all pretense and began to celebrate getting rid of its progressives....even its own. If you are a progressive Republican, don't count on party help. Even old Charlie can spot a bad fake photo. I mean serioiusly: If you're going to fake an image, you might consider doing a good job. Nonsense. The big lie works though. Keep it up. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Gator on Sep 10th, 2004, 12:42am on 09/09/04 at 22:42:27, Charlie wrote:
Actually Charlie, while I cannot verify the authenticity of the photos in question, there are actually photos of Kerry meeting with North Vietnamese dignitaries in that museum. The photo is actually supposedly there to show how far relations between the US and Vietnam have come since the war. You want to talk about confusion and lies? Forget about everything everyone has said about Kerry and stick with just what HE has said. Your candidate has shown himself to be at least two faced on every major issue of his campaign. And has out and out lied on occassion. If he talks to automakers, he owns an SUV. If he talks to environmentalists, he does not own an SUV. The SUV belongs to the family, not him. HUH? WTF is that? He is against raising taxes. He is going to kill the tax cuts. No, no now he is going to just kill the tax cuts for the evil rich. He voted for the war, but voted against funding it. He voted for the funding to support the war, before he voted against it. Bush made a mistake going into Iraq. Based on the information we have now, Kerry says he would have made the same decision. No, wait, now he would have done it differently. Kerry said he would be fighting a more compassionate, more sensitive war. How the hell do you do THAT? [Excuse me, could you stand there and let me kill you, please? Thank you. Bang!] His spending Christmas in Vietnam is etched in his brain forever. Oops, he forgot. He didn't go until January. He threw his medals over the fence. No, they were someone else's medals. No they were his ribbons, not his medals. Ribbons and medals are different you see. He has definite ideas on how things should be done, but he won't state specifically what those ideas are. He's even gone so far as to say it's none of our business. This is not something I heard someone else say. I heard Kerry himself say it. THAT'S what you want for a president. Someone who says it's none of our business what his plans are once he get's into office? And your scared of Bush? I could go on and on, but you won't even get the point here, so why bother. Kerry's opinion is up for grabs. Whatever way the polls are leaning or who he is speaking to that day dictates his opinion. Yeah, that's who I want running the country The fact is I still haven't heard one good reason to vote FOR Kerry. All I have heard is a bunch of Bush haters trying to come up with reasons to vote against Bush. Nice. As far as bashing Fox news, Neal Boortz has had an offer on the table for 5 or 6 months now for anyone to call and tell him how Fox has twisted the truth in any NEWS story. Not opinion based programming, but in reporting the actual news. A caller that says he or she can do that automatically goes to the front of the line. Not one person in this time has been able to cite one instance of Fox twisting the facts of a news story. Let us know when you will be doing this, I'll be listening. I bet you can't do it. Gator |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 10th, 2004, 5:57am Quote:
He never said any such thing. What he said was he would like us to be more sensitive to our allies who are helping to fight the war. Quote:
Ribbons and medals are, in fact different things. Quote:
the evil rich, hmmmm…. like the owners of Halliburton? Or would it be the Joe Average millionaire next door? And when did being rich become evil? Isn’t that the dream of every person in the world? I know it’s mine. Quote:
Yep! 110% All American Politician. Reminds me of the Bush family. And all this crap about Kerry flip-flopping. Wasn’t it Bush that had absolute proof of the existence of Weapons of Mass Destruction and that gave him the right to go to war? Then when it was proven there were no WMD’s he flip-flopped and tried to lie his way out by blaming others (that work FOR him) because they provided him with bad information. Wasn’t it Bush that whined and cried that he was the victim in the whole mess? While I’m here, Hey Boob. ;;D How ya doing? You wrote and stated it as fact Quote:
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Which is it Bob? Truthfully I don’t know nor do I care. And it doesn’t really matter. I do know that the scum bag is bought and paid for by the Republican Party for the simple reason to destroy Kerry. As for the photographs of Kerry………..fake photos are a dime a dozen. Click this for just one of them. http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerry2.asp And something I forgot yesterday. You said Quote:
As opposed to Bush being “legally” AWOL? Time to move into the 21st Century Bob. The Vietnam conflict ended in 1972. It's over, done, completed, finished. Get over it. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 10th, 2004, 7:33am He who should be President... http://www.kerkuk-kurdistan.com/afoto/2003/09/colin_powell_cep_200.jpg Feel free to agree. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 10th, 2004, 7:58am Well educated, articulate, proven career record, (mostly) non-political, stable, no skeletons in the family closet,, no axes to grind, doesn't really need a job, doesn't need the money........hmmm Nope. Over qualified. Just kidding. Yes I would support him. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Melissa on Sep 10th, 2004, 8:25am I think Powell would make a very noble president. :)mel |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 10th, 2004, 9:05am on 09/10/04 at 07:33:06, Rock_Lobster wrote:
Agree. He would make a good president. But I think he will retire in the next year or so. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by echo on Sep 10th, 2004, 9:09am He would have my support as well. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by john_d on Sep 10th, 2004, 9:25am I agree Rock, I salivate at the notion of that being a choice |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 10th, 2004, 9:54am Quote:
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I don't know what he is now. He may have seen the light ala Ronny Ray-gun. Like you, I really don'y care either. I just believe strongly in his quest to have Kerry make things right. Heck, you were there Bob. Do you have a collection of VC ears that you mailed home? I even heard Geraldine Ferraro, on the tube last night, echoing Kerry's claims that Nam war attrocities were common place. She only sited My Lai as her proof that it happened all the time. Quote:
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Hey Bob, I see Kerry is talking to the National Guard Association (the bunch of draft dodgers) in Vegas next Thursday. That ought to be interesting! |
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Title: the ONION says it best Post by floridian on Sep 10th, 2004, 11:14am The only paper that can print the truth AND make people laugh. http://www.onion.com/news/index.php?issue=4036 |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by vig on Sep 10th, 2004, 11:23am This one from the Onion got me laughing too: "Bush Campaign More Thought Out Than Iraq War" www.theonion.com And I'm still laughing at this one... "Rear End Justifies Means" |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 10th, 2004, 6:38pm They are different "items" but they represent the same thing. That's my point. Now tell the Republicans. They always want to misquote, twist or spin everything to suit they own agenda. I.E. That is was OK and legal for Bush to go AWOL because Kerry left the service early, after serving on active duty, Yeah I heard that Kerry was coming to town and speaking at the National Guard Association. Was is just an oversite on your part that you did not mention that Bush will be here doing the same thing during the same week? Have a nice day. ;;D |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 10th, 2004, 6:59pm Sen. Kerry's Bonus From The Vietnam War (Documents provided by the Massachusetts State Treasurer's Office) Request, Check - front, Check - back http://rope.wrko-am.fimc.net/kerry/09.09.04.bonus_doc_01.jpg http://rope.wrko-am.fimc.net/kerry/09.09.04.bonus_doc_02.jpg http://rope.wrko-am.fimc.net/kerry/09.09.04.bonus_doc_03.jpg Make of it what you will, but, I would not be looking for a $300 bonus after I admited to killing babies.....would you? ..................jonny |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by stevegeebe on Sep 10th, 2004, 8:34pm Let's pretend.... Bush is not the GOP nominee. Kerry is not the democratic nominee. Forget the talking points. Which person do you like the best? Be honest. Steve G |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 10th, 2004, 11:26pm Quote:
General Wesley Clark Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 10th, 2004, 11:52pm Quote:
Just a few positive reasons to vote for Kerry: He will allow drug importation so seniors won't have to choose food or drugs. He will be a buffer against Congress. He will do his best to encourage medical and scientific research. He knows that religion and politics make bad bedfellows. He will appoint an Attorney General who will follow the Constitution. Don't get me started. Powell for President? Sure I like the guy and just watching the Republicans having to deal with a black progressive running as a Republican, would be so much fun. You say Kerry filpflops. GOOD. Bush would never flip flop. That's the scary part. It shows that he behaves like a spoiled child and will not admit mistakes. Everytime something goes haywire, it's the fault of Congress or someone else......Never never George. Flipflopping is a sign of maturity. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Tom K on Sep 11th, 2004, 9:05am on 09/10/04 at 23:52:43, Charlie wrote:
That is the funniest thing I have ever heard in my life!!! [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jeepgun on Sep 11th, 2004, 9:10am Wesley Clark??? Oh man, Charlie... Please please do more research, my friend. If you think Bush is a bungling idiot, he looks like a member of MENSA compared to Clark. Even Clark's compatriots regard him with an aversion bordering on outright disgust. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 11th, 2004, 9:27am on 09/10/04 at 23:52:43, Charlie wrote:
More like he says what he will do and does it. Charlie.....what has lurch done in the last twenty years as a senator? Im going to love hearin this ;;D ............................jonny |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Cerberus on Sep 11th, 2004, 10:54am Before I go thermonuclear ...I just want to say I love you guys and nothing will change that, not even political opinion. Now for the beefy part... There is alot of talk here about political alignment, and who said this and who said that, who is a republican and paid for this and blah blah blah...Most of it about guys who arent on the ticket. so here goes... Vietnam... Quote:
while this is a great thought...the fighting continued and troops were deployed through a good part of 1976...albeit the war IS over now. War Atrocities: I suppose Geraldine Ferarro saw a high amount of combat during the war making her today's leading authority on wartime atrocity? Define Atrocity...during the war Vietcong troops operated out of Cambodia moving freely across borders and launching devastating offensives upon American troops who BTW were taking heavy losses as a result... to counteract these maneuvers, America violated principles and send small groups of troops across the same borders to try and put an end to it...Atrocity? Nah...doing what needed to be done to try and save American lives. Baby Killers...I'm sorry but if I am deployed on the perimiter of a firebase in BFE vietnam and it is pitch black at night to where I can barely see the tip of my nose and the base comes under heavy fire, my men fire into the darkness to repel the attack and the morning light reveals that 70% of the attackers (now dead) were old men, women and children 12-17 yrs old....Don't put that on my men, put that on the vietcong for being immoral enough to force those people to do their bidding. The Vietcong by day would hide in the jungles and by night occupy American held territory and FORCE the vietnamese people to either fight or die for refusing...Is this also the American's doing? Nope...but we cant blame the Vietnamese general populace for trying to save their own asses either...they didnt want the Vietcong there any more than they wanted US there. Ask the families of MIA/POW's about the mass graves in CHINA of american servicemen's bones that the vietcong said they never had...how'd they get to china? DON'T try and hand me any more BULLSHI*T about war crimes in Nam. John Kerry... Quote:
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No stance....no vote, at least not from me...but then its "none of our business". Quote:
From what I have heard from Nam Vets..."being stupid and slow" was gonna get you and your men killed anyhow, so he may have well just shot himself, he wasn't doing anyone else any good. Quote:
Like Spain...who had a far less tragedy happen directly to them than 9-11 was and suddenly pussed out? We're supposed to be sensitive to "Allies" for that...methinks we need to re-evaluate who our "allies" are. And Finally... Quote:
Move to Illinois...we can apparently now buy drugs from Canada...I still havent reaped any benefits from it. But a handfull of seniors have. Quote:
DUH!...you can learn that in 7th grade American Government class. Quote:
Isnt that supposed to be the case with ANY presidential regime? Besides name one that has been completely compliant to the constitution in the last 100 years...I didn't think so. Quote:
one I can agree with...too bad he's black and it will never happen. Quote:
You are kidding .....right? Menopause is a sign of maturity, flipflopping is a sign of a bold faced liar caught in his own lie. Still waiting on a viable reason to vote Kerry. 9-11 NEVER FORGET! Ramon |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by JDH on Sep 11th, 2004, 11:11am on 09/11/04 at 10:54:29, Cerberus wrote:
The best reason to vote for Kerry is that you're voting against GW. This administration has got to go. Jim |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 11th, 2004, 1:23pm Quote:
Beats the heck out of me. But I know one thing he didn’t do and that was get the courts to claim he won an election. I wonder, if Gore’s brother had been Governor of Florida in 2000, would the chads be hanging on the other side of the hole? Quote:
Absolutely true. Thank God most of the “stupid and slow” and the cowardly, sissy momma’s boys were in Canada at the time. But, saying “Kerry shot himself” implies that it was an intentional act to harm himself which was not the case. Quote:
You got that right! But, like a good republican that is giving the answer to a question that was not asked and to avoid answering about an out and out lie. The statement was that Kerry wanted to have a sensitive war. Kerry NEVER said that. His statement was twisted and spun by the republican attack squads until it didn’t even resemble what he did say. Quote:
Partially true. The fighting is still continuing today. We don’t hear about it because we don’t have troops there and it doesn’t sell the news. Follow the dollars. The American combat troops left Vietnam in 1972. The North conquered the South in 1975. As for Bush never flip-flopping, hmmmmmm He once said we would stop the terrorism. Then he said terrorism can’t be stopped. Which is it George? On the subject of War Atrocities- during my time there I never saw nor heard of any atrocities committed by US troops. The first I ever heard of such things was after I had returned home. All the claims of atrocities that I ever heard came from draft dodgers, anti-war freaks and others bent on destroying the moral of troops still in Vietnam. I have never heard anything about atrocities from another Vietnam Vet. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jimmy_B on Sep 11th, 2004, 2:07pm on 09/10/04 at 07:33:06, Rock_Lobster wrote:
I thought this man should be President. http://mccain.senate.gov/_images/bio_headshot.gif but being as our states primaries are not until May...we didn't get a chance to vote him in. But since he's not running it's Kerry. Shoot, I would vote myself in, before George Bush. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Cerberus on Sep 11th, 2004, 2:10pm BG...I agree with you on many of the points in your last post to this thread. We are only divided on methodology. My whole initial response to this thread was in question form asking WHY would we complicate the current world situation further by replacing a bad regime with a potentially worse one...we already know what lack of administative communication and party division has gotten us...today is the anniversary of it. Quote:
Agreed...the whole deal was/is shady at best...I however didn't then and STILL don't believe Gore would have made a difference in the outcome of 9-11. Or taken ANY appropriate action to prevent further disasters or attacks. I vote NO CONFIDENCE! My whole reason for this is because I haven't really seen a GOOD candidate for president since Ford....even that is suspect. Quote:
I never actually said that Kerry harmed himself to get out of combat or whatever...but I don't put it past him to do so based on his non-issue platform this campaign. Quote:
Never said he did...but we agree that we REALLY DO need to re-evaluate our allies...I would also prefer to NOT do it under the Bush regime but for lack of a better alternative... :-/ Quote:
Under Democratic nor Republican command we were never "officially" at war in the first place...you and I and the others who served know better...sure American Combat troops left in bulk in '72 however the poor ill fated...hell...pretty much abandoned South Vietnamese troops were supposedly still supported by the U.S. military although the "official" version says we were out by '72...we all know that to be a lie as well. Quote:
I didnt post any quote saying Bush never lied....besides we knew better when he said those things terrorism will never end...sad but true. Quote:
Completely agreed...I would have supported our troops then (had I been more than 5-8 yrs old) and I certainly do now. As I said before one's definition of "Atrocity" in war time is directly pertinant to one's political agenda or personal perspective. Troops do what they are either ordered to do or they do it to save their own and/or their buddie's asses... no problems there, until you get up to who gives the original orders. Again, I thank all service personnel past and present for fighting to make our lives better. Had I been called to serve at any point...I would have done so proudly. Ramon |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Simon on Sep 11th, 2004, 3:21pm It’s funny that the last few times (three?) I’ve contributed to one of these threads, I’ve managed to kill the thing there and then! Perhaps you’re praying for the same to happen again. J (I like to join in as we simply don’t get the cut and thrust at OUCH (UK), and I like to exercise my brain cells!) The more I’ve seen of these discussions the more surprised by how bitter and personal they become, and how little they have to do with what will improve the lives of those who live in the USA. The actual issues are hidden behind slogans, which sound great but are facile and meaningless. This even applies to the labels given to those with who the writer disagrees. Two examples: “draft-dodger” – presumably someone who refuses to fight on principle. The phrase though is so loaded as to mean something totally different. Here we say “conscientious objector” – they were allowed that status legally, and could not be forced to fight, but had to act in a support/caring capacity. The worst is “Liberal”. This is the proudest boast that can be made by an intelligent, informed and reasoning individual. It means that you have a liberal education, perhaps the liberal arts, and have a liberal mindset. You can be a conservative or a socialist, but you believe in freedom. Anyone who had looked it up would know it derives from Latin, and implies to let, or to allow. How can that be a term of abuse in a free nation? I’m also puzzled by the emphasis placed on the role of the Commander in Chief of the Forces. Surely any military experience could almost be regarded as a handicap. Isn’t it best if he/she simply decides what is the policy, and lets the military themselves decide the method. Driving a boat or a plane is not a decent qualification for that. Here, the Queen is Head of the Armed Forces, but I’d rather she didn’t run around with a sub-machine gun to prove she has whatever the female equivalent of machismo is. The job of the Government (ironically this should be the Bush position) is to facilitate the military doing its thing, not telling them how to do it. Why have I not heard any of the candidates saying “I’m not prepared to tell you that”. Isn’t it realistic to admit that there is no point in discussing hypothetical situations – not because you don’t know the answer, but because the question has been invented purely to trap you. Responses in some circumstances are best not revealed on the security side. Why not get a better idea of how the person really thinks by asking them which are the most and least valuable parts of the Constitution. Why not lock up the candidates for a week before the debates, away from phones and advisors, so that all they can do is read and think? Every week I read about people there that have been diagnosed but can’t afford their CH drugs. I’ve not heard the question being asked “why in the richest country in the world do people have to live in pain?” I liked Reagan, I liked Clinton** – they both seemed to have an ability to connect with the real world, and to avoid non-sensical and divisive issues. I couldn’t really bring myself to vote for either Kerry or Bush II. My concern for you all is that this will happen again in four years, unless an outstanding character emerges. Why not spend the time from now working on a couple more exclusion clauses – they’re already not allowed to be born abroad. My favourite would be to ban anyone with a net worth of more than $2m – if they were that keen to have the job they’d have to give it away to charity! Sorry for the burbling…. Dolly ** I have always been touched by this: Bill was a Rhodes Scholar at the same college as I was (not at the same time). He was very popular with the staff there, and when, a few years back he heard of the death of the Head Porter’s wife, he rang him from the White House, and chatted for quite some time. Remember, no political gain in this, as no-one involved here could vote. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Pinkfloyd on Sep 11th, 2004, 3:25pm on 09/11/04 at 13:23:38, BobG wrote:
You plan on voting for one? Kerry probably convinced as many confused young men to go to Canada as anyone. Almost convinced me. Knowing how good the fishing is up there, I sometimes wish I had. The only atrocities I can attest to is what a year in Viet Nam did to my older brother. Physically strong but mentally damaged for life. My other brother spent his time in DC with the Old Guard, wondering when the next casket he honored between the airport and Arlington would contain his brother, and not just friends. My best friend spent years jumping under furniture every time a helicopter or large truck flew/drove past his home. It was a terrible time for everyone and we were ALL a mess. My father, a strict Republican that hated "long haired traitors" until he watched the Democratic convention on tv, knowing that 30 miles from his home, kids were getting their long-haired heads bashed in. I imagine it brought back memories of what he fought against in WW2. Never asked me to cut my hair again. One of the biggest problems with our political process is that every election year, the party not in power will not help pass any bills that would help the "people" as it would make the President (that they want to defeat) look good. So we sit suffering for a year while they both tread on our rights, our health and our wealth trying to make the other look bad. We all worry about who our next President will be when in all honestly, the last 12 years worth of Attorney Generals have stripped us all of more rights and freedoms than any terrorist. 100 times more people die every year, that shouldn't, than died on 9/11, because of a flawed medical system. Flawed because it's run by the pharmaceutical companies. It has already begun but you will see the phamicos stop shipments to other countries just so we can't import them back in at reduced rates. But, we're stuck with it under our system. Profits = Jobs. Jobs = food and shelter. Food and Shelter = votes. Votes = elections. Elections = false promises and lies. False promises and lies = profits. PF I like Ike |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 11th, 2004, 3:33pm Sorry Ramon. My remarks were not all aimed at your statements. It was intended to reply to the false statements the Bush lovers have posted. Quote:
The first American troops to go to Vietnam in the 1950's were sent to advise and train the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam). The latest American military equipment soon followed and was issued to the ARVN troops. They were trained in the same way American troops are in boot camp, advanced training, and special schools. All through the war the training continued. When the Americans pulled out in 1972 they left the best of everything behind. From tanks, APC's, aircraft, river patrol boats and artillery down to uniforms, mess hall equipment , office equipment, training techniques and manuals and sleeping quarters. The ARVN had been trained by the best for over a decade. It was time they took on fighting for themselves. They did not do that. They mostly continued as they always had. Avoid enemy contact. They were not abandon. They just refused to fight their own war. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 11th, 2004, 4:27pm Quote:
Looks to be right out of the Rush Limbaugh 3 x 5 card file used by lazy neocons. Just because the candidate doesn’t try to distract us from important issues and isn’t in the pockets of drug companies and the religious right wing that thinks abstinence is birth control and scientific research dangerous, you don't like him. Time to slander him by calling him an idiot who would lead us into a votex of evil and destruction. Unlike Bush, General Clark has a solid foundation in history, knows that war is the very last resort, has served his country very well, (you don’t become NATO commander without gray matter) knows that Bush & Company have no respect for the Bill of Rights, and knows that 43,000,000 people with no medical insurance is nothing to brag about. His education is profound. I recently heard him speak. What a joy to listen to a competent and critical thinker who doesn't call weapons of mass destruction: "related program activities" after none were found. What has Kerry done in the Senate? It’s enough that he has done his best to get in the way of pious and selfish legislation. A lot of Republicans have a long tradition of doing not much more than opposing legislation that benefits you and me rather than CEOs who get their mail in the Carribean. Kerry isn't perfect and admits it. Bush is delusional and surrounded by abler but selfish and nasty people. They're not conservatives; they're dangerous radicals. Go ahead, shoot yourself in the foot. A vote for Bush is a vote against any chance for drug price restraint and research. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 11th, 2004, 5:03pm We reached a peace accord in 1972. An agreement that the North would stay in the north and the South would not be invaded. That's what we wanted from the start. We got what we wanted in Viet Nam. In 1975 the North violated the agreement and invaded the South. We stood by and did nothing. Kerry tesified that 3000 to 4000 South Vietnamese may be killed for political reasons if we left. Oops, make 3 to 4 million if you consider the killing fileds and the boat people. Guess you could refer to him as the face that launched a 1000 ships (South Vietnamese refugees that is). I can live with the Bush administration. I can't stand to look at Kerry. I feel personally violated by his actions. I really can't fathom how he could ever be considered to lead this country! http://www.pahlow.net/images/kerry_wafflehouse.jpg |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 11th, 2004, 5:11pm Quote:
Nobody can stand to look at Kerry. Guy's a gargoyle. If Kerry were running against Nixon, nobody would wear a button. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Tom K on Sep 11th, 2004, 5:25pm So...a vote for Kerry is a vote for cheaper drugs? Since when? Rob Chicagovich has passed a "law" saying the the Peoples Republic of Illinois can buy drugs from Canada. What they don't tell you is that the places you can buy from are not price regulated the way the Canadian Health Care system is. They can charge anything they want when they ship it across the boarder. I'll be the first one to admit that I hate the cost of Trex. But I also see that if it wasn't for the "Evil Drug Companies" and their profit taking, we would never have it. Do you own a company? Or work for one? Do they give stuff away for free? I didn't think so. The money that they make goes back into research. Yes, some of it goes to CEO's and share holders. Do you have a 401k or a mutual fund? What companies are the holdings? "Yeah, limit what the drug companies can charge and what CEO's can make." Sounds like a good argument until you realize that without them you would be in a world of shit with no out. Limit what CEO's make? Then where does it stop? Is 200K a year too much to make? 100K? 75K? What stops some one who is all for capping what at CEO can make, coming to your place of work and saying that you make too much money? Slippery slope isn't it? Too bad people can't see it that way. Doesn't everyone realize that if your company doesn't make a profit you don't have a job? No matter what your job is. Kerry is all for cutting the "tax cut to the rich". Isn't he and his wife in that group? More people than you think are in that group. The "rich" according to Kerry and company are people who make over 75K a year. I don't know about anyone else but 75K a year isn't a boatload of money, not any more. It used to be but at one person making 75K a year, you still need another income to make ends meet. At least around here. And to tell you the truth, I want to make 75K. I want to make more than 75K. I don't want someone telling me that I make too much. I busted my ass to get where I'm at and you're not going to take it. If you want it, then go bust your ass, too. I was out of work, in my field for 18 months. I didn't sit around and cry and ask for a hand out, I went to work in a different field until I could get back into mine. Why doesn't everyone else? Because of the Big Bad Republicans? Oh, Please. Get a grip. If you are "homeless" get a job. Begging on the street corner is not a job. Hell, in Chicagovich we have a web site where the "homeless" can find work. How do they have internet access? I am sick and tired of the old Democrap line...Homeless, Healthcare, Race, Religion and all the other crap. I'll get off the soapbox and give someone else a chance. [smiley=twocents.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 11th, 2004, 5:49pm Quote:
Yeah. Viagra. They spend millions on boner pills and inane TV ads. Can't make a buck on research for CH meds. No problem: We won't do it. Drug companies are like the19th century robber barrons. Absolute greed with not an ounce of good will. All Kerry wants to do is give everyone a shot or at least level the playing field. It's skewed the wrong way. With this bunch it all goes to those who need it least. Even during Reagan, a lot of upper income Republicans said they didn't need a tax cut. These guys don't listen and don't care. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 11th, 2004, 5:51pm Rich? What's rich? $75,000 income a year? Before or after deductions? In avaliable cash? In property? In stocks and bonds? $75,000 in Chicago might be low. But in Vegas can very comfortable. Rich all depends on who you are talking to. Someone making $30 an hour is rich compared to someone making $12. What's rich? Beats the heck out of me. My home is paid for. It'll sell easily for $260,000. I am buying another home just for the heck of it. It is valued at $250,000 and be worth 400 grand in 5 years. I have a 401k with a value of $525,000. In 2 years I will retire (if the 401k is at 600 thou). My contract buy-out will be about $380,000. While I am working I get $48 per hour and paying max a year into my 401k. That all adds to over a $million. Am I rich? I don't think so. As I write this I have $4 in my pocket. Hell, I can't even eat at McDonald's today. What's rich? I have no idea. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by ckelly181 on Sep 11th, 2004, 6:06pm Thanks, Dolly. I loved your post. Very thought-provoking...especially the bit about the queen packing heat... ;) Chris |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Pinkfloyd on Sep 11th, 2004, 6:24pm on 09/11/04 at 17:51:36, BobG wrote:
Yeah but you could take that 4 bucks over to the Mirage and put it on 17. 2 minutes later you could have $144.00 and/or a couple of olives drowning in a glass of Ketel One (free meal and a buzz). I love America!! PF define rich? I ask, define meal? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Tom K on Sep 11th, 2004, 7:26pm on 09/11/04 at 17:49:52, Charlie wrote:
I may be slammed for this but here it goes anyway...would your company make a product that 1% of the population needed? Honestly, I don't think they would. Whether it is good will or not, good will doesn't pay the bills. Hate to say it but it is true. We have Trex, Zomig, Verap, Pred. That is a pretty big list for 1%. With the new research about the hypothalamus, more will come. Do you know what goes into making a drug? Ok, let's rush any drugs that have in the pipeline out quicker. When that first person falls over dead,(beause of the Animal Rights Nuts you can't do animal testing) their family is going to sue. Sue the company right out of business? Maybe. Sure, they are big companies, they have insurance. Who also pays for that insurance? You and me. So our rates go up. What will you say when the drug kills someone or doesn't work fully, "Those bastards, giving us a drug that sucks!" When does it end? Give it up. So what if they make Viagra? Do I care, yeah! Viagra pumps money into research and development for more new drugs. Drugs that can help us. Now, anyone who is bitching about Bush "ditching" the draft, STFU! Forgive me if I have my history wrong but didn't your "Supreme Leader" BJ Clinton dodge it? All the way to England? Said he was going to ROTC training and then, POOF! He's gone. What the rules don't apply now? Bush didn't ditch shit. He did his time in the ANG. If you think that it was a walk in the park, let's see you do it. Flew the F-103 if I remember correctly...the hardest plane to fly at the time...logged 385 hours in it, too. Hmmm, doesn't sound like ditching anything. Sheesh, pretty soon everyone will be chanting... Potheads for Nader! Potheads for Nader! [smiley=gocrazy.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by IndianaJohn on Sep 11th, 2004, 9:17pm on 09/11/04 at 17:51:36, BobG wrote:
Dude, your rich ::) My sisters rich too if it helps [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Sean_C on Sep 11th, 2004, 10:09pm on 09/11/04 at 17:11:00, Charlie wrote:
LMMFAO Charlie.......ain't that the truth ;;D Sean........... |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Cerberus on Sep 11th, 2004, 10:12pm Quote:
Yup...and was working too ;) Quote:
weeeeelllll....sorta, we all know anything can look good on paper. All the equipment, manuals, blah blah blah is great if you can read em. Most of the unfortunate Poor south vietnamese were uneducated farm folk, all of em knew vietnamese, but I bet those repair and instruction manual that were printed in English threw em fer a loop. ;;D Anyhow the OTHER Bob is also right...The north reneged on their end of the treaty and we all know the results. Quote:
Well, Simon no offense but we arent British and that would simply make too much damn sense....GEEZ aint it obvious? ;;D Quote:
Psst....thats called a monarchy or a dictatorship ;;D ;;D thanks for playing tho :D Quote:
MY POINT EXACTLY!!! nobody gets it when I say it >:( LMAO Ramon |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 11th, 2004, 10:43pm Quote:
Neither do I. Too bad that that's the way it has to be. I still don't want to hear more bullshit that profits are needed to promote "research," when millions are spent on boner pills and lobbying to keep drugs expensive. It's disgusting. Drug companies spend too much on politics and pushing depression pills on people who watch the news. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by eyes_afire on Sep 11th, 2004, 11:08pm Quote:
$75,000 a year is a helluvalot... at least to those of us trying to make ends meet with less than half that. 401K? What 401K?... there's no 401K if you don't have anything to put into it. There are no jobs here. When I die, I will be dragged out of work in a hearse. Pisses me off with all the hard work I've put in. Bastards. --- Steve |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Pinkfloyd on Sep 12th, 2004, 1:20am on 09/11/04 at 22:43:13, Charlie wrote:
Well Charlie ya can't have it both ways. If a billion was spent coming up with the little blue pill, and they are going to make two billion selling it...to those that want it, how does that hurt you? Keeps your neighbor working and off the unemployment roles. Puts money into the coffers to research the next pink pill. Puts the auto workers to work building new cars for the workers at the pill factory. Buys food, imitrex, heat in the winter. It ends up as tips in waiters pockets, at the local petshop for little kids goldfish. The local plumber gets to install a new sink somewhere. Some unemployeed parent gets to bring his sick kid into a hospital and get a free antibiotic that may save his life. Why you ask? Because there are enough people working in the county to be able to pay county taxes that provide services. That money doesn't disappear. Do you think Mr. Glaxo has all his money in his mattress? Even if you believe that it all goes into the bank account of the CEO, that means his bank now has money to lend our kids so they can buy their first home. Even if they all have great accountants, at least some of that viagra profit goes to build new tanks for our troops, bullet proof jackets for our police and new ladder trucks for the firemen that got your cat out of a tree. If you use it, you may complain about the high cost but it must be worth it if people buy it at those prices. At least for this pill, people aren't being forced to sell their home to afford a pill that they need to stay alive or pain free. If you're going to complain about the little blue pill you might as well complain about the costs of next design of the Walkman. I also suspect that for every blue pill, there are at least two people that are happy. How can you beat that? Besides that, for every hour those two people spend happily at home with their lights off, behind their closed doors, we all profit. They use less electricity and drive less. I have less traffic to contend with, saving gas, time and frustration. Looks to me like the little blue pill is helping us end our dependency on foreign oil. Very patriotic little pill if you ask me. ;;D PF |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 12th, 2004, 7:43am OK, never mind Viagra. Go ahead, shoot youself in the foot. Never have I seen a more blatant abuse of power and greed displayed by the drug companies. It's worse than big tobacco was and the NRA in style. (Calm down. I own some guns) It all goes one way: in favor of continued exorbitant prices, attempts to scare us from importing Canadian drugs, spending millions on "ask your doctor" drug advertising on television, and blocking any attempts at good will. They know just how skewed it is and know better than try to defend their avarice and out and out greed to us. What they do is criminal and how anyone can defend these bottom feeders, is beyond comprehension. They have to make a buck but what they are doing now makes me sick. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Tom K on Sep 12th, 2004, 8:18am on 09/12/04 at 07:43:16, Charlie wrote:
So, according to you all the "ask your doctor" ads should be ignored? How bout the one for Trex? That one is always popping up. I see it atleast 2 times per day. Do you want it both ways? The drug for free and the company to make money to come up with more drugs? Or do you just want to go live in f'ng Cuba or China? Why don't you ask someone in those countries or the old CCCP how "Grand" life was there? Do you want to continue to suck on the tit of government or get off your ass and do something for your self? I care if I pay a lot for Trex, but you know what? I hope that by paying more now, maybe my kid won't have to pay even more for the next drug for CH. I don't care about me, I care about my kids and what they are going to have. I don't want it all given away to the government by pansys who are too damn stupid and lazy to get off their ass and do a little work for themselves. Communisim doesn't work. People don't try to break into those countries, they break out. When is the world going to learn that? And, Charlie, I'm not defending the drug companies, I'm defending capitalism. That's the thing that keeps me and everyone else in a job. If you are going to rip on the NRA and have the views you do, why do you own guns? [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 12th, 2004, 9:27am on 09/12/04 at 08:18:41, Tom K wrote:
Oooo... the Assault Weapons Ban expires tomorrow. Far superior topic. Guess who's going shopping? That said... what a worthless piece of feel-good legislation. I picked up 90% of my 'evil weapons' during that ban... they are just lacking banned features such as: Adjustable stocks (ooo... lethal) Bayonet lugs (name the last time someone was killed with a bayonet... really) Flash supressors (bwahahahahha!) So what am I, connoisseur of battle weapons, buying this week? Receivers. That is it. Your weapon 'born-on-date' is based upon the date you register the receiver. So I will have a number of 'post-post-ban' receivers for all the good stuff... AR's, AK's, MACS, FALs, G3s. And on the first day of the next meaningless ban, each will be worth 5x-10x what I paid for them. Note that for the last ban, the parts had to be fully assembled into an assault weapon before the ban in order to be grandfathered, but that was completely unenforceable. They can always track the serial number to the date of manufacture, but after that...it's imposible to tell if it was assembled before or after any ban. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Simon on Sep 12th, 2004, 9:49am Re drug prices - I thought Imigran was invented in the UK, by a UK company. As I recently said elsewhere, I get all my drugs for four months for £33.40 - call it $50. Not aware that we were Communist here. Quote:
It's having the medication that means I can go out and work. And pay taxes. And have a life. Baa |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Pinkfloyd on Sep 12th, 2004, 11:32am on 09/12/04 at 07:43:16, Charlie wrote:
How many times a week do I read here...."ask your doctor about __" because they don't always know what to prescribe? One of OUCH's biggest goals is to teach doctors about meds that can be prescribed. How would you react to a million dollar tv campaign to "ask your doctor about 02 for your clusters" If positively, then we shouldn't be hypocritical about other drugs and diseases. I agree that there are big problems but....every silver lining has it's dark cloud. Cheer up. PF best get that foot looked at ;-) and be sure to ask your doc about Neosporin |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 12th, 2004, 1:09pm CEO's? Back in '92, Kerry's committee decided there were no POW's left in Nam which gave Clinton the go ahead to normalize relations with Viet Nam. First contract, $905 million, went to a company to improve the deep water port at Vung Tau. The CEO, C. Stewart Forbes, Kerry's cousin. Maybe just the commies way of saying thankyou for all Kerry had done for them both during and after the war. That's why I chuckle every time I hear Kerry use Haliburton in his speeches. Income? Thought I heard the other day that Kerry's (re Te-ray-sah's) income last year was in the $700k range and they paid about 12% income tax. I pay 15%-20% on $100k income. That's why I favor a flat tax. Everyone pays 10% on their gross and get on with business. I do have to say that my refunds have been a lot bigger lately. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Little Deb on Sep 12th, 2004, 1:11pm Just stopping in to see how the stew is coming along.....keep stirring! ;;DLD |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 12th, 2004, 1:18pm on 09/12/04 at 13:09:29, Bob P wrote:
You must be trying to get in my pants. I would kill for a flat tax. /sweating the AMT |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 12th, 2004, 1:41pm I pay 36% federal 6% state WTF am I doing wrong here? FLAT TAX!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 13th, 2004, 4:26am Quote:
I should know better. Never mention the NRA. Calm down. I've done dozens of gun shows over the years and have sold a lot of pre-98. I don't have a FFL which isn't a big deal as I sold mostly antiques and military relics. My point is that they know how to lobby. Don't give me a hard time, even my mother and grandmother were good shots. Quote:
Don't be an ass. I don't care if they make money. I do care that they are the greediest bastards I've ever seen and that they have no compunction screwing our parnets and grandparents. They are simply drug pushers. Bill Maher is probably right about them. If they could make a buck on marijuana, it would miraculously become legal. It should anyway. Relax Tom. I haven't been to a party meeting since the wall came down. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Gator on Sep 13th, 2004, 8:32am on 09/12/04 at 13:41:54, Jonny wrote:
What the "Tax the rich" crowd always fails to realize is that for a lot of small business owners, the business' income is included on the owner's personal income tax. While the business owner may not bring home that much money at the end of the year, that added amount boosts his/her income causing him or her to pay taxes on money they never personally saw. They become the "Evil Rich" liberals are screaming about. A Flat Tax might be good, but after doing some research and listening to some fairly intelligent people talk about it, I am personally more inclined to a Consumption Tax. Repeal the 16th ammendment and do away with the IRS. With this plan you would be able to keep almost every penny that you earn, invest your money tax free, and see prices on consumer goods fall as much as 20%, maybe more. Add to this the fact that you would receive a rebate from the government equal to the sales taxes that you would be expected to pay every year on the basic necessities of life. Republican Congressman John Linder is the principal force behind the legislation for a national retail sales tax. (Damn those greedy Republicans - trying to give the people back more of their money again) Check out http://www.fairtax.org Gator There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. -- Robert Heinlein |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 13th, 2004, 8:42am Quote:
The top 1% in the US owns more than the bottom 90% combined. Thats rich. Earning 75K and owning a house puts a person in the 'comfortable' category, but does not qualify them as rich. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 13th, 2004, 8:57am on 09/13/04 at 08:32:06, Gator wrote:
There not trying to give us our money back - They are taking out a huge loan in our names, and sending us a 'cash out' perk like the credit sharks do. The average family received a tax cut on the order of $1000 - $1500 last year. That family's share of the national debt went up by a far larger amount. The current adminstration doesn't understand the term fiscal conservatism. Quote:
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And if you think Iraq was expensive, wait til you see Iran. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Gator on Sep 13th, 2004, 9:59am on 09/11/04 at 13:23:38, BobG wrote:
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Now, you are talking like a Republican. Way to go. Quote:
Deb, when you stir up shit, you really stir up shit!!! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by jimbo on Sep 13th, 2004, 10:54am What the "Tax the rich" crowd always fails to realize is that for a lot of small business owners, the business' income is included on the owner's personal income tax. While the business owner may not bring home that much money at the end of the year, that added amount boosts his/her income causing him or her to pay taxes on money they never personally saw. They become the "Evil Rich" liberals are screaming about. Exactly right Gator! I'm in that boat. Lets not forget about the double S.S. tax that business owners get to pay as well, 15.3% to be exact. Does this mean that we get double S.S. benefits when we retire? NOT! I always sum up the typical way of liberal thinking in this country as "Why should I have to suffer just because that person is successful" If someone really wants to find out what paying taxes is all about, start a business and you WILL find out! : |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 13th, 2004, 11:11am The Rich. Always amazed at the way people are aginst the rich. Most of them got rich because they are successful. I thought that was the idea of our society. Find a need, fill it and be successful. Is it just envy that makes people complain about the successful? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 13th, 2004, 11:17am Quote:
Not unbelievable. Why charge citizens less when government spends more?? If the government spends more money, we are going to pay for it. Putting it off only postpones the pain, maybe making it worse. Quote:
Its the new times, not the new math. Clinton, for all his faults, decreased the number of Americans working for the government, slowed the rate of increase in the budget, and paid down a sizeable chunk of the debt. Political parties often reverse themselves. Take the Republican party and civil rights - under Lincoln, the Republicans did far more for civil rights. The south went Democratic as a result. Until the Democrats pushed for civil rights starting in the 60s. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 13th, 2004, 11:22am on 09/13/04 at 11:11:01, Bob P wrote:
Luckily for the planet, I have the solution. You get one vote for each tax dollar you have paid. Ta da! That should adequately dilute the 'stupid lazy person vote'. Top that off with a special 'veterans-only vote' for any issue involving the deployment of troops. /superior platform to the candidates |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 13th, 2004, 11:29am Quote:
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by john_d on Sep 13th, 2004, 11:32am on 09/13/04 at 11:11:01, Bob P wrote:
Only a small percentage of the wealthy attained it through hard work and success. So I don't buy that at all. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 13th, 2004, 11:53am on 09/13/04 at 11:32:57, john_d wrote:
I guess you need to define 'wealthy'. There is a HUGE difference between the top 2% and the top 0.2%. /working hard /succeeding /no offense taken |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 13th, 2004, 11:58am Quote:
More than one reversal for Bush: _In 2000, Bush argued against new military entanglements and nation building. He's done both in Iraq. _He opposed a Homeland Security Department, then embraced it. _He opposed creation of an independent Sept. 11 commission, then supported it. He first refused to speak to its members, then agreed only if Vice President Dick Cheney came with him. _Bush did an about-face on whether the proposed new director of national intelligence should have full budget-making powers as the bipartisan Sept. 11 commission recommended. Bush at first indicated no, then last week said yes. _Bush argued for free trade, then imposed three-year tariffs on steel imports in 2002, only to withdraw them after 21 months. _Last month, he said he doubted the war on terror could be won, then reversed himself to say it could and would. _A week after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Bush said he wanted Osama bin Laden "dead or alive." But he told reporters six months later, "I truly am not that concerned about him." He did not mention bin Laden in his hour-long convention acceptance speech. When the going was good, Bush pushed a aggressive image: From landing on a carrier in a flight suit to proudly proclaiming "I'm a war president." When things went sour, he flipped to the reluctant "had to do it image" ... in a July 20 speech in Iowa, he said: "Nobody wants to be the war president. I want to be the peace president." _Bush promised to unite America, but didn't. Osama bin Laden did unite the nation, which lasted only until Bush invaded Iraq, a country unconnected with the 9/11 attack. _Bush keeps revising his Iraq war rationale: The need to seize Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction until none were found; liberating the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator; fighting terrorists in Iraq not at home; spreading democracy throughout the Middle East. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Prense on Sep 13th, 2004, 12:35pm The majority of these posts here are just paraphrasing and quoting from various news sources. Kerry is an outright idiot. Defend him all you want, but he will still be an idiot. The only thing he has going for him is healthcare. That's great, but that is one issue amongst many. I'm thinking that where ever Osama is hiding; he knows he fucked up. Oh, and Saddam... man, we screwed that up didn't we? I mean, he didn't even have any WMDs. I guess he should have remained the leader of Iraq. All in favor of sending Saddam back and reinstating him with a formal apology; please raise your hand. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Gator on Sep 13th, 2004, 12:44pm on 09/13/04 at 11:22:47, Rock_Lobster wrote:
I know your intentions are pure, but here is how the voter base would look: According to the IRS: Latest figures available are for tax year 2000. _______________________If you Earned / Your Group Payed Top 1%.................$313,469 & up..........= 37.42% of the taxes Top 2%-5%...........$128,336 to $313,468..= 19.05% of the taxes Top 6%- 10%........$92,144 to $128,335....= 10.86% of the taxes Top 11%- 25%.......$55,225 to $92,143.....= 16.68% of the taxes Top 26%- 50%.......$27,682 to $55,224.....= 12.08% of the taxes Lowest 50%...........Less than $27,682......= 3.91% of the taxes - And there is a bracket in there that pays NO taxes at all. The top 1% of wage earners would control 37.42% of the vote. I'm not ready to go there. I still think one native born or naturalized citizen of this country = one vote. I do wish that those who did vote would pay attention to what is going on in the world beyond their own front door and study the issues and candidates. Gator |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by john_d on Sep 13th, 2004, 1:01pm on 09/13/04 at 12:44:05, Gator wrote:
you may not believe it but some people actually get a bigger refund than they actually paid in taxes. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 13th, 2004, 1:09pm on 09/13/04 at 12:35:19, Prense wrote:
If fixing it all were that simple... ***raises hand*** Too late for that though. Go back 24 months. All in favor of sending 1000+ US soldiers to their deaths and spending $100,000,000,000+ per year for the next 5+ years for the purpose of removing WMD's from Iraq, please raise your hand & punch yourself in the nuts. /yep, kerry is an idiot too |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 13th, 2004, 1:23pm on 09/13/04 at 12:44:05, Gator wrote:
I gotcha... it was mainly a joke. Imagine the Gates/Balmer ticket... induce vomiting! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Prense on Sep 13th, 2004, 1:24pm on 09/13/04 at 13:09:33, Rock_Lobster wrote:
You're probably right... It's not like it was our problem anyway. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jimmy_B on Sep 13th, 2004, 1:34pm on 09/13/04 at 12:35:19, Prense wrote:
Yeah...we did screw up!!! Saddam gassed the Kurds in March of 1988. What did our leader do then? Empraced him as an ally. He invaded Kuwait in 1990. What did our leader do then? Waited for almost a year then pushed his Republican Army back across the border. Then asked the Iraqi Sunni Majority to finish the job & they were exterminated. Well, sanctions really did a number on him. Saddam looked like he was hungry & in need of supplies :-/ We did screw up. He should've been taken down a decade ago. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by echo on Sep 13th, 2004, 1:36pm on 09/13/04 at 13:34:17, Jimmy_B wrote:
All Stormin Norman needed was another 24 hours. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Melissa on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:03pm Quote:
This is about what bracket we are in. We have 1 person working outside the home (my husband) while I am a stay at home mom with our 2 children. I can tell you, that between Clinton's presidency and Bush's, there hasn't been a hell of a lot of change. The only differences are, before we had some more cash in our pockets while Clinton was in office and our taxes were a bit lower, but during Bush we were able to add onto our home due to interest rates so low and my husband hasn't been laid off, like he was when Clinton was Pres. I noticed also, that it really wasn't Bush's presidency that changed the financial circumstances, but the 9-11 attacks that DID. The stockmarket crashed, people sold like nuts, we saw hubby's 401K lose money and were worried, but now, after a couple years, it's growing again. I can't say things have been bad with Bush as President, because I'd be lying. I can say they've been a bit trying, but I tribute a lot of that to 9-11. Man, just read back on that first 5 days after the attacks on how the Stock Market reacted, it was insane! Now, yes, we had it good too while Clinton was Pres. I voted him in, as I am a Democrat and many of his views were in tune with my own. We lived ok during his years also. NOW, I do have to say, that between Bush and Kerry, I have to go with Bush. I am basing that on his views co-inciding with my own, and our quaility of life while he has been president. Like I said, it has been trying, and hubby's co-workers also lost their jobs due to cutbacks, but things are definately getting better. This will be the 1st time in my life I'll be voting for a Republican. All the Republicans in the past that ran for the Presidency (since I was of voting age), I did not agree with their views. Now as for Kerry, the guy scares me. Every time I read his words, or see him speak on TV, he is bashing Bush. EVERY time. Why? I see that as constant finger pointing from Kerry and I don't see him taking responsibility for his thoughts on the issues, which is what "I" want to hear. Call me nieve, but it's my own [smiley=twocents.gif]. :)mel |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Gator on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:04pm on 09/13/04 at 13:34:17, Jimmy_B wrote:
I've been saying the same thing since the end of the last war. I was seriously pissed when we pulled out and let the bastard live. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:19pm on 09/13/04 at 14:04:53, Gator wrote:
Fully agreed, at the time. But your comment prompted a thought... What if Daddy Bush thought things through... past his potential 'Mission Accomplished' media event... ...That if we took Saddam out of power, we would be bogged down in a near-civil-war for much of the next decade, at a loss of thousands of US lives, 100x more Iraqi lives, and with the deserved hatred of the world. We all called Daddy Bush a wussy back then. In hindsight it looks like he pulled our troops off the table with excellent timing. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:41pm Quote:
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Prense on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:43pm on 09/13/04 at 14:41:15, Bob P wrote:
Because if he did, he'd be even more of an idiot! |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:44pm How did so many conservatives, who normally don't trust their government to run a public school down the street, come to believe that federal bureaucrats could transform an entire nation in the alien culture of the Middle East? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Rock_Lobster on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:46pm on 09/13/04 at 14:41:15, Bob P wrote:
I believe they are getting Dubya's through Freedom of Information Act inquiries. Can they not do the same for Lurch? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:52pm Nope. W signed a form 801 release all of his records. Kerry refuses to sign one. I just keep wondering why he didn't get his Honorable Discharge (shown on his web site) until 6 years after he got out of the service? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Jonny on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:53pm Would anyone like a coffee and scone while im out? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Melissa on Sep 13th, 2004, 2:57pm on 09/13/04 at 14:53:18, Jonny wrote:
yes please ;;D |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 13th, 2004, 3:11pm Tea and scones would be lovely, Jonny. It's 3:15 pm and spot on. Also, Jonny, you will be pleased to hear that THE BASTARDS in the media heard what you said about never covering the positives in Iraq. I pick up my Sunday paper and find a half page article on the great new reality shows that are now appearing on Iraqi TV - including Materials and Labor, a show on how to fix up war torn houses, and Wedded Bliss, a show that tracks Iraqi newlyweds as they honeymoon and settle into domestic tranquility. Not sure if these are arranged marriages or voluntary - maybe they could alternate episodes. Winning the hearts and minds of Iraq?? http://tinyurl.com/64bjc Edited link - but the article I read was longer. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by vig on Sep 13th, 2004, 3:25pm How about a Trading Spaces episode in Saddam's house... Before.... http://www.kdlltd.com/vig/saddamBefore.jpg After! http://www.kdlltd.com/vig/saddamAfter.jpg But he didn't like it.... he preferred something a little more cozy.... http://www.kdlltd.com/vig/saddamHole.jpg |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 13th, 2004, 4:36pm Can I change the subject back to the tax thing for a moment? I could go along with the consumption tax. A federal tax, say 13%, on all goods sold. Eliminate the federal income tax all together. That way you can decide how much tax you want to pay. Don't want to pay high taxes, don't buy the Lexus buy the Ford. Don't buy at Bloomingdales, shop Walmart and keep your taxes down. It could be a simple tax system and still raise enough to keep government operating. But, and it's a big but, politicians can not understand the word simple. They would make a simple system even more screwed up that the tax system is now. OK, to your rat killing. 8) |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by floridian on Sep 13th, 2004, 4:58pm on 09/13/04 at 16:36:55, BobG wrote:
Why do you think that a system that now requires 30%+ of our income plus corporate taxes can be run on 15% of consumption?? Most economists say a 25-30% VAT might work if there were major cutbacks. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by john_d on Sep 13th, 2004, 4:59pm when deb says she is going to stir up something, she means it. 7 pages and counting ;;D |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Charlie on Sep 13th, 2004, 5:30pm During a good chunk of the 1950s, which for the most part was about as prosperous as it gets, the tax rate for the very weathy was about 90%. Business taxes were up there too....and under a Republican administration as well. Even with creative accounting, most of them paid a hefty share. No one needs that kind of rate but nevertheless, business flourished at an unprecendented rate event with these taxes. Malcom Forbes was the big proponent of the flat tax. It sounds better than it is and the rich alway favor it. You have to wonder why. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Tom K on Sep 13th, 2004, 5:40pm on 09/13/04 at 04:26:17, Charlie wrote:
Don't sweat it, Charlie. It is good for helping me cope with my CH. Somehow a good bout of mental gymnastics is keeping my shadow from going to a k8. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Simon on Sep 13th, 2004, 5:43pm I’m really enjoying this. :) Taxes: I’ve always liked the idea of a consumption tax. It actually has an inbuilt scaling mechanism – the less you buy, the less tax you pay, and the essential items tend to be cheapest, and consequently would carry less tax. (We have a VAT system here – 17.5% on everything apart from food, children’s clothing, books and newspapers.) As to a flat tax, from everything I read here, the US tax code is unwieldly in the extreme – if it could be simplified, the amount saved would be vast. One of the biggest problems seems to be the continual lobbying for exemptions – if these were removed at a stroke, you could also remove one of the major causes of corruption, and the jockeying for position by large donors. Gator, you surprised me with this: "We reached out to our allies and to the UN and got bi+ch slapped. If they can't support us after all we've done for them, screw 'em.” That is precisely the sort of all-embracing remark that pisses people off over here, so I’ll assume that you were not referring to the UK. It might, however, be worth remembering that the Spaniards had a change of government before leaving the alliance. The French are no one’s allies, and never have been. Take the meaning of sensitive to be an awareness of such factors, and it makes more sense. As to getting rid of Saddam, the biggest problem is that is was quite simply illegal under international law. Personally I don’t think it should be, (eg dear Mr Mugabe) but no matter. My biggest concern with that is that a precedent has been set. As the US and the UK took out Saddam, we can have no moral objection to countries taking out national leaders, including our own. I don’t think that makes the world a safer place, and removes any moral high ground we might want to adopt. Talking of the Spaniards, they were going to throw out PM Aznar anyway, but the Madrid bombings just guaranteed it. Governments can be stubborn, but individual voters never are. The bombing was a pretty clear interference in the election. What effects would such an attack have in the US if it happened before the November election? Would it strengthen resolve against the terrorists (presumably giving Bush an advantage) or would people move against the whole war on terror (aiding the Democrats?) And what would the terrorists want in any case? A genuine question – I have no idea, but am interested/concerned. Baa |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Bob P on Sep 13th, 2004, 5:52pm Hi Simon, I'd vote for Tony Blair for President in the US. Did he ever serve in your military? |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by BobG on Sep 13th, 2004, 6:04pm Quote:
I was just taking a gues at the persent needed. I've seen it advertised at 12% to 35%. One thing it would do is stop the underground economy where some workers are paid 'under the table' and no SS or income tax is paid. But he would be forced to pay his share of taxes to every time he bought something. |
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Title: Re: Just stoppin in to stir up some........ Post by Pinkfloyd on Sep 14th, 2004, 1:14am on 09/13/04 at 17:52:09, Bob P wrote:
I agree and I also think every American should write the man an email of thanks whether you approve of the war or not, IMHO. http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page821.asp PF |
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