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Title: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 20th, 2004, 9:09pm This thread is not an anti-religon thread nor is it an attack on those who are believers or non. It IS a semi-rhetorical question which may be answered by anyone who feels they may have some insight...in fact I invite you to should anyone so desire. A couple of days ago a very long time friend of ours came to visit with her husband and daughter it was nice to have them visit and I wish them to come whenever they desire, they are always welcome here. However, She has become something of a "devout" christian ...I dont have a problem with that, what disturbs me (knowing her youth history) is that she has claimed attachment to the pentecostal faith and has also turned somewhat fanatical...at least it seems that way. We housed them in our guest-room and she went so far as to turn my painting (the one entitled Marooned)toward the wall because of the skulls contained in the subject (she claimed it made her "uncomfortable" ). I dont even take offense to that because she is more than entitled to her beliefs. While here she attended a Benny Hinn healing service in Chicago in hopes of being healed of her fibromyalgia of which she has been suffering a great deal of pain for a few years now. (BTW she is still ill and claimed that it "Wasn't her time" when I asked if she was cured) Anyhow, when she arrived back here after the service we talked some about her faith and Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit and our individual beliefs...this is where I get perplexed. While she has never forced her faith upon me, a few things she said slightly offended me. Essentially she attributes everything not directly associated with "good" in action, word, or deed as Satan's doing, this includes but is not limited to pretty much anything not of her personal approval or practice and almost all evil acts comitted by human beings. I will clarify...I talked some about the historical aspects of religon (in general based on scientific/historical fact) along with historical facts about the bible citing documented evidence. She stated that I should be carefull what I percieve to be fact (even if it is religously documented) because Satan wants to steer me away from the "truth". When the reverse was asked of her about the bible...I.E. The bible was written and compiled by men for the purpose of creating order in society. The response was that (even though it is and was documented by devout people) the bible was written by men directly from the word of God therefore it is absolute truth, even though men are fallible and things got lost in translation or were deliberately omitted. Here is my point... What gives her the right to imply or believe that anyone who does not worship, pray, or believe the same things as her or those of her faith are going to hell? It is this type of thinking that lead me to excommunicate myself from organized religon. How do we truly know and who are we to judge who is right or wrong and/or which religous practice is proper? Doesn't that act or implication contradict what she is supposed to be learning from the teachings of her faith and the bible? She would say that Satan was misleading another if the same were said to her Example:She mentioned that she felt genuinely worried for another mutual friend of our's soul (who chose to become Jehova's Witness) because the things she believed were going to send her to hell. Which implies (at least in my perception) that my personal beliefs are also wrong and I will surely burn in hell as a result. I have a great deal of respect for this person and although she didn't come right out and directly SAY it...that, in essence, is what she said. Am I wrong for being offended? And if not, then how do I express my displeasure to her for offending me by indirectly saying those things when I fully respect her right to believe what she wants? She doesnt shun and refuse to be a friend to me because of my personal beliefs, yet she indirectly expresses "concern" for my afterlife because I dont practice my beliefs the same way she does. Isn't that similar to a fanatical muslim thought process although she is non-violent? I'm cornfusticated and find this disturbing. Did I make sense? WTF do I do, I cant just let it go like that... Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Kevin_M on Jun 20th, 2004, 9:24pm on 06/20/04 at 21:09:33, Cerberus wrote:
Her judging robes are on a bit too tight. Tell her you will pray for her anyway. Kevin M |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Rock_Lobster on Jun 20th, 2004, 9:56pm Well said Kevin. People of her ilk have driven me away from most organized religions. Reminds me of third grade in Catholic school... I spent a weekend at my Aunts house... attended Mass with her... Protestant services. Told the Nun of my experience the following Monday... and was informed that I committed an awful sin! LOL... even at the age of 9 I knew that she was dead wrong. No worries Cerb... rest assured... any religion that spouts 'my way or the highway' is out of luck. God/Allah/Whatever is not that stupid. On a side note, I find that zealots (ie your guest) and the like are great amusement at parties. Sources of a million contradictions. Rock |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Tiannia on Jun 20th, 2004, 10:06pm Ramon - That is hard. I've faced it alot. Not just from Friends but Family members as well. It is difficult for people to believe that others who believe differently then them can be "saved" because that might mean that they are wrong. The more devoutly they believe that they are the only ones who are right the more comfortable they are with thier destination after this life. For me, it depends on how well I know them and if they will actually get into a discussion about it. If not, then you might only end up ostrisizing her and your friendship. If she will, then talk to her about it. Not trying to put words in your mouth just talking. This is from my prospective only. You can tell her that you appreciate that she is worried about you, but that you feel that your relationship with God or whatever it is you call your higher power is not up for interpritation. That Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." You can say that for you that means that the only person who can judge you is God. Personally, I feel that there is so much in this life that is painful, and not only physically. That whatever it is that gets a person through each and every day, is what is right for them. That each person needs to find faith within themselves, that gives them some sort of reason to get up each day. I cant say that CH is a blessing, but I can say that it has taught me to enjoy and appreciate each and every minute that I am PF. Hope that helps. There is more that I usually get into with people, but that is not for this thread. -Tia |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 20th, 2004, 10:18pm As it turns out... I probably won't confront her about it, I am not that sinister and It really isnt that important (at least not to me) I just thought it kinda ODD and was taken by surprise once I had some time to give it some introspect... I dont believe that discussing it with her would jeopardize our friendship any, but, I also wont test that boundary with her....she is free to worship and practice what she thinks is right and I am humble enought to respect that...my only wish was that she had done the same cause I dont think she knew what she was implying. But pls folks keep offering opinions (especially) you clergy types I find the topic fascinating actually. Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by purpleydog on Jun 20th, 2004, 10:28pm I don't get into organized religion just for this reason. I have the utmost respect for whatever religion people choose to follow, I expect these people to treat me with the same respect. I don't understand why different religions treat other religions differently, saying what they (other people) believe is wrong. Some people feel their religion is the right one and everyone else will go to hell for believing differently. I worked with a guy long ago who was trying to "convert" me to his beliefs. He told me different words in different rock songs were evil and meant those bands were serving the devil. I just kept on working, didn't say anything except 'interesting". He was very frustrated that I wasn't going along with him and got mad and walked away. Last year I worked with a young man who was going to seminary school to become a pastor. By the way he gossiping, and how he acted toward people of color, and how he put down women (especially his wife), I couldn't believe it! The word hypocrisy comes to mind. I don't think you're wrong to be offended, I would be too. Maybe she doesn't realize what she's saying and what it means to you. Maybe she does. I believe people who are religious fanatics can be dangerous, they will do anything to show you they're right. I don't know if her fanaticism relates to fanatical muslims or not. IMHO, I don't think people should judge each other, but it happens all the time. And a religious person may say the same thing to you while judging you and your beliefs. We are all people living on this earth, why anyone would condemn a person for following a different religion than theirs is beyond me. purpleydog |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by John_D on Jun 20th, 2004, 10:30pm [smiley=twocents.gif] Yeah, that can be annoying, but that is what some Christian dogma teaches. She was being very honest with you, she must trust you a great deal. You are a skeptic and she is a devout believer, I wonder if you can still be friends [smiley=huh.gif]. [smiley=twocents.gif] |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 20th, 2004, 10:42pm Yes we're still friends...I am not that shallow..no problem. I just think that that type of thought process is mostly a defeatist attitude. Specially when it comes to Christianity...since the basic principles of all the christian religons is almost exacly the same, it is in fact the method of getting there is different. As for the fanatical muslim comparison...that was merely a comparison of thought processes, I.E. "you dont believe or worship as I do therfore you are damned" ....that kind of thinkin...just dont make sense. and I really dont think she MEANT to imply what she really ended up saying...if she did then she totally screwed up by her own standards. RAmon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Tiannia on Jun 20th, 2004, 10:44pm on 06/20/04 at 22:18:40, Cerberus wrote:
Ok my, I know a lot of clergy people what would be offended if I was lumped in with them. ;) hehe |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by cootie on Jun 20th, 2004, 10:46pm I call it anouther FAZE in life...........people seem to need the religious kick to insure them of an afterlife......a certain cure.....or not fear dieing. I've seen alot of people go thru religious extreme fazes then switch off and on like a lightswitch........my uncle when I was a kid turned into an extreme religion overnite practically and the family could no longer enjoy any holidays and my aunt could no longer even wear makeup. He became a fanatic and they'd read from the bible when we were little on vacation at grama's. He didn't believe in several foods either or activities esp sports for the kids. It was hard on the family and ended in devorse. I have become EXTREMLY squimish on religion ever since cuz they scared me readin the bible like it was a theater play and preachin bad actions and people were nothing but hell bound.....sorta freaked me out. So....few years later he becomes an alchoholic and would come over and pass out on the couch and let the kids run rampert and stay all day long. He's still semi-religious.....and dried out....and no longer extreme. Seen it before...it irritates the crap out of me (no offense to anyone here that is religious tho)....but myself I don't believe in pushing any personal choices on anyone about anything. Tattoo'd hellbound Pam modify...is bad spelling a sin ? Yipes if it is............ 8) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by eyes_afire on Jun 20th, 2004, 11:36pm Ramon, Been there, done that. That's how I was raised. For the victim (her, not you) it's a total mindfuck. The guilt can become immense. For me, it became impossible to live with myself. It's impossible to reason with that kind of thinking. Of course, now I think religion is... a waste of time (to put it nicely)... but that's just my opinion. Oh, and Ramon.... you're going to hell (LOL j/k... I think :o) --- Steve |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Ree on Jun 21st, 2004, 12:08am Finally a thread I can sink my teeth into... Firstly Ramon... You are so articuate... a very smart guy. I hope I get to meet you someday... And too I am impressed at your curiousity and concern about this issue and your friend also. First of all Kev said it in a nutshell... Tell her you will pray for her. My son left our religion after meeting someone just like her. He felt that with all the good in the world. How could everyone but this one chosen group people be going to Hell. Take it from someone that has seen the "light" so to speak... Though, I am a Catholic... born, brought up. I don't think any religion can leave more guilt on a persons soul. I had a near death experience at 15 and I don't know if you believe in such a phenomenon. In the course of my then journey I learned that God is Love... We are all of the same energy. No one better. I myself do believe in EVIL... But there are many roads to God... I keep God in several ways. I have chosen to keep my religion as I am brought up and comfortable in it. Never, ever in the teachings of Jesus Christ have I ever understood that any person... with a basic knowledge of goodness in their soul would go to Hell. As Kev said... Tell her you will pray for her... or do as I do when someone approaches me about their beliefs... I give them a few of mine........... We are all right.........love to you Ree (who was really touched by an angel) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by 5-string on Jun 21st, 2004, 1:37am She found a spiritual connection with the world and wants to share it with you. It happens to alot of people everyday. That part of it is wonderful. What alot of people are not so good at,unfortunately, is understanding that whatever"medication" works for them,may not work for you or me. The bible is a very complicated piece of literature and if one is not careful reading it or being taught by it,it can start a whopper of a fire in some. To cut her some slack, it's not easy turning your will and life over to the care of God while at the same time remembering to think for your self and maintain a strong and healthy understanding of the world around you. That takes time and alot of practice and patience. ...Mark.. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Callico_Kid on Jun 21st, 2004, 2:16am Ramon, Interesting post, and a very thought provoking one. I appreciate your maintaining your friendship with this lady even though your beliefs clash. To many people would break friendship over such a disagreement She sounds to me from the little I read of her to be a fairly new convert who has not had the time to become totally grounded in her faith, merely believing whatever some preacher tells her without checking it out for truth. I do not put myself up as an expert although I have a degree in Bible and have taught and preached in a lay capacity for many years. What I have discovered as I have matured and have studied further that some of the things I espoused earlier I have learned were wrong. All I can say is that the Bible lays out a choice. Either you believe it or you do not. I have never been one to try to shove my beliefs down anyones throat because, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." unknown author. I am always willing an hapy to share what I believe, but will not try to push it on anyone, nor condemn anyone for believing differently. That is God's to judge, not mine. All that I can say to quote St. Paul is, "I know whom I have belived and am pursuaded that he is able to keep that which I have commited unto him against that day." Jerry |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 21st, 2004, 2:54am part one: Quote:
She was, does and we are...no matter what happens I will never forget it. Quote:
TY Ree I am humbled....we WILL meet eventually, count on it. Quote:
Agreed...not only is that admirable...it is respectfull and many people could learn from this way of thinking. Quote:
Good solid thinking Mark..."Men never do evil so cheerfully as when they do it from religous conviction." -Blaise Pascal- anyone who wishes pls feel free to express your thoughts...again no response from me will judge your beliefs, if it works for you then I'm happy for you. On to part Two: Although I do not believe in a "personified" god...I still have a prayer. Pray it to God, Jesus, Allah, Bhudda, Shiva or whatever higher power you may believe in. May all whom I come across benefit from me in whatever form their soul may need...I am a vessel from which flows understanding, kindness and love to the best of my human limitations. May Each and everyone here, if even only one time in their entire lives and only if for a moment, experience the comfort, joy and peace shared by this family. May all of you be PF...chronics, episodics, supporters and non, whether it be your minds, hearts, or bodies even if it is fleeting. May NONE of you forget the little things that make life worth living...sunsets/rises, the smiles and laughter of infants, friends and family, the tiny mew of kittens and soft puppy fur, the call of the birds, the chirping of crickets, morning dew and spring rain, the crystalization of your breath on a cold window pane in the dead of winter or the love from a pet....these are but a few of many more. May ALL of your burdens be lifted, pay your good fortunes forward and you will find reward in the joy of having helped others. May All of your sorrows and worries be comforted. Life is too precious and short to spend the rest of it missing out on what is truly important. We need not wealth nor possessions as long as we have others who truly love and care for us...it is this a genuine love and caring that I wish upon you. May we remember these things for the rest of our time in this life and pass it along to our children, and their children, friends, family, aquaintances and neighbors...in this way together we shall live forever and will garantee the continuation of our species in a positive and constructive manner. Let us not judge others for their beliefs. May I someday be able to bring you all to experience the profound joy you all have given me for my life and sanity you have saved on more than one occasion....these things I wish for you. Amen... That is what life is about no matter what creed or religon you practice. It is the essence of life itself. Peace Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Charlie on Jun 21st, 2004, 3:30am This is an easy call for me. Anyone who would waste time on a con artist like Benny Hinn, is way around the bend. One has to pay to see this creep and check his mind at the door. This guy preys on desperate people and holds that sickening smile all the way to the bank. He gets away with it by using religion. What you describe is fanaticism and from what you say, there isn’t much you can do. Let them know you'll only go so far or when you’ve had enough. In a strange way you have to envy these people who are so sure of an afterlife. We've been lucky in our family. We've had some churchgoers but no one who made religion unpleasant. For me, I'm a member of the Church of the Presumptuous Assumption. Good luck. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Kevin_M on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:11am on 06/21/04 at 02:54:02, Cerberus wrote:
Ramon, I cannot consider it "good sense" to seek to change, convert, or misjudge your view. That is a good solid grasp, don't let it go for anything. And she's preaching to you? Kevin M *edit* Jayne's post on the "get help for depression" thread needs to be moved over to this thread. It is an excellent example of "seek and ye shall find", and an experience that can give one faith. That is a reflection of how faith in action works. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:54am Just weighing in on the concept of Hell and eternal torment: If God is perfect, God's justice must also be perfect. In the context of eternity, this life is but a breath. If there were such a thing as eternal separation from God, and indeed, a place of eternal darkness, pain, and torment, wouldn't that be a perfect God's admission of failure? Wouldn't that be something on the order of a Cosmic Wastebasket? And if that isn't proof enough, for those who think the Bible is God's first, last, and only words to mankind, you can quote the verse, "He who has begun the perfect work within you shall see it through to the day of its completion." There is no such place as Hell. Even the Pope has said that Hell is a state of consciousness, of separation from God. And even THAT isn't correct, according to the Bible: King David wrote in the Psalms, "Where can I go that you are not there? Even if I descend to the depths of Sheol, you are there." God still speaks. It's rare that people ever shut up long enough to listen, though. People pray and pray and pray, treating God like some kind of Cosmic Santa, and never take time to get quiet inside and actually listen. If your chosen religion is making you a more loving, spiritual person and makes you feel closer to your God, then it is the correct religion for you. However, praying to change others' state of consciousness, forcing your faith on others, or interfering with anyone else's relationship with God, is the very height of arrogance and ignorance. It is to place oneself between the individual and God, and to claim to know better than God what is best for the individual. Many roads, One Work. My two centavos' worth... -Frank |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Woobie on Jun 21st, 2004, 10:43am Yeah !! But - I am upset about this whole thing for a different reason. I was not around when Ramon and her had this conversation - I was at work.. and it's a good thing, because I would have sat there and argued with her - especially if I felt offended like Ramon did. This was a visit from "hell". Man! We havent been keeping in touch with this friend as well as we should ... and we invited her up... without realizing how "different" she had become. WOW - did we get smacked! First of all... she is a friend of mine that I have known since I was 5. We grew up together - got in sooooooooo much trouble together, and she is actually the person who introduced Ramon and I. (LOL) And she was the maid of honor at our wedding. My mama always told me never to talk about religion with friends... and I try very hard not to. But this visit was UNREAL! I would be talking about something (anything - LAUNDRY even )...... and she would turn it into God - and go into a whole speech. I would try to change the subject - and no matter what - it always ended up back on God and satan, and healing, within MINUTES...... All I could do was nod my head and agree or say - ok - yeah... gotcha... I'm glad I didn't know about this conversation her and Ramon had until now. she changed. She said she changed because she got sick... she was just looking for relief, and God is what she found. And she swears that the pain that she is in (and she's in A LOT of pain all day every day... ) is God's will - and she will get better when HE wants her to. So - she' has stopped trying to make herself well. she used to try everything to make herself feel better... now - she just leaves it to God. She just takes her pain meds and leaves the rest to God. (and she's dependant on the oxycontin that she's been taking for over 2 years... ) which is another concern i have... She now = for some reason - feels like she is the EXPERT parent - the all-knowing - all powerful mother, who is always right and always does the perfect thign. and now - loves to tell me how to raise my kids, what to tell my kids, how to discipline my kids. She also knows WHY my kids do what they do - and HOW to fix it. (GOD - of course.. will mend their ways). That did offend me - nothing like my friend coming here and telling me in not-so-many words that i"m a terrible parent. she never used to be this way - i dont know how to tell her that i dont want her to come back - i dont want to talk about God all the time - and I dont want her telling me how to raise my kids. If she wants to send her kid to bible camp all summer - that's fine... but my kids are not going to hell because I dont have the money to send them to a church camp. I love her - and i'm worried about her - and I lost my friend. And honestly - i'm pissed off about it i call these kind of people "holier than thou.." and I hate that my friend has turned into one of "them". sorry this was so long. tina :-* |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 11:00am I had a friend like that. Rabid fundamentalist. No matter what we were talking about, he would turn it into a diatribe on God and his particular brand of Christianity. I told him repeatedly that I didn't care to discuss it. (Not that there was ever any kind of discussion. He would rant and I would listen quietly.) Each time after that, when he would start spoiling for a religious discussion, I would change the subject. I haven't heard from him in several months now, and I consider that a blessing. >:( :( |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by cootie on Jun 21st, 2004, 11:07am That's the exact way I feel Woobs !!!! I have some freinds that turned into religoius freaks (sorry guys).....everything they say do or sit on was done specially for them from God.....everything they do he let them do or smiled upon.....special. Guess it can be a new faze for someone that needed 'something' to believe in and take over there life so they could keep goin or move on.....and with sum they eventually burn them selves out with the fanatic part of it....esp after too many things go terribly wrong in there life and disalusions them. I am offended by people that PUSH there beliefs or how things 'should be'.....but then that mite be due to how my uncle scared me as a kid. I felt corner'd as they got us kids in a room readin all that 'do this or go to hell stuff'. It seems to be an obsession like anything else..........like findin a new pizza place and all you can do it talk about how good the food was and how everyone should go. Hell hast no furry like a Pammie flurry Opps...then God created modify...........arghhhh ! |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Margi on Jun 21st, 2004, 11:09am on 06/21/04 at 08:54:27, Jeepgun wrote:
AWESOME post, Jeepgun. :) Amen to every word you said - our job title is not "Judge". That comes later. ;) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by BobG on Jun 21st, 2004, 12:06pm Quote:
A healing service will not heal anything. She'll just get an empty wallet and still have her pain which, I suspect, she enjoys. Quote:
God gave humans the intelligence to know right from wrong. If I murder another person (not a good thing) did Satan make me do it? No, I made that choice. If the other person dies (not a good thing) did Satan cause that? No, I did it by choice. Quote:
That would be a good question to ask the Muslims in the middle east. They believe if you don't believe exactly as they do that they have an obligation and right to kill you. Quote:
Quote:
Yes you made sense. The only thing worse than a religious freek is a 'born-again' religious freek. Tell you'd rather not talk about religion and move the conversation to another subject. If she won't give up the religious talk tell her STFU. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 12:35pm Thank you, Margi. :) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 21st, 2004, 1:49pm It scares me to hear that someone who claims to have so much faith...can attribute the evils that men do to a lesser power. Man has to be held accountable for his individual actions at some point otherwise we are mere puppets and God's gift of "free will" doesn't truly exist and that line of thinking likens Satan's power to that of God...scary as well as fanatical. Its also scary that she dismisses the Old Testament almost entirely. She talked of the teachings in it as if it were a mere story and to be regarded as such, yet her faith in the New Testament was astonishingly hypocritical. She acknowledged the existance of the "great rejected books of the bible" but dismissed the "rejected" writings of the same men who's other teachings were included...??? She acknowledges the Jews as the "chosen people" and dismisses their beliefs as "satanic" for the lack of the acknowledgement of Jesus as the messiah. The Talmud...from which much of the bible was derived is not acceptable as scripture...while the musings of men who claim that "God told them to" write are regarded as Holy. The dead sea scrolls written in a extinct language and found to be incomplete are also partially the foundation of the bible...these writings contain words that do not translate into ANY modern language but they are to be revered as sacred. Much of what they contain is permanently lost to time and/or translation. There are things contained in the former that we dont even know about and may even totally contradict what we think we know. Her husband was accompanying her...I talked to him briefly about it. I asked if they had to pay to get into the Benny Hinn service...he said not directly, they were members of his ministry and as a result were given tickets to the service last Thursday. He did say that once they got there and were standing in line (for several hours) they noticed that tickets were being given away for free....boxes full of them. I took that in mind and thought to myself...hrrmmm interesting and said no more. It is sad that their daughter is going to this "Bible Camp"...somehow I doubt that it is of this child's own choosing. They are pushing their beliefs upon her...it appears in an effort to mold her into the child they want and not the child she should/could be...sad. Society wonders why there are fewer and fewer practicing christians....the reason is obvious. Our daughter spent a day or two with them when they left here to go home...she is now at another friend of ours.. and I am glad...my kids are raised to develop their own relationship with God as they see fit. My heart tells me when I've done wrong. Oh wait...I'm judgeing.... ;) Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Charlie on Jun 21st, 2004, 2:27pm Frank said it pretty well. The Satan shit is what screws it up. It's the creeps we have to put up with that say they talk to god that are the problem. If God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omibenevolent, there can be no Satan. Of course maybe he, she or it isn't. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 2:38pm I think there is a lesser god who acts as the schoolmaster for this schoolhouse known as "Earth," and is responsible for putting souls through the lessons that ultimately bring them growth. But no, I don't believe in Satan or Hell. Ludicrous, in my opinion. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 3:00pm A well-meaning neighbor from down the street came to my door and invited me to her church, shortly after we moved here. I politely declined and she began to press the issue of where we went to church. I finally told her that we didn't go to church, at which point, she launched into this diatribe on Hell, damnation, the devil, and God's judgment. At first, I felt myself seething inside, but I put that aside and decided to just listen. The more she said, the more worked up she got. She finally ran out of words and I replied, "That's a very frightening tale, but I really must say, the God I believe in really doesn't have such a nasty temper," and then, (I couldn't help it) I started laughing. She turned on her heel and stomped off. I'm sure she thinks I'm going straight to Hell. The more I thought about it, the funnier it became, until I had to sit down, ribs aching, tears running down my face... Later, I felt compassion for her because I lived with that kind of fear and guilt for a long time, when I was a kid. It was still funny to see her so worked up and raving, though. Hee hee... [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 21st, 2004, 3:52pm Quote:
LMMFAO....right.. ;) I feel bad for people who are so worried about their hell that they feel compelled to threaten me with it..."I'm sorry, I do not believe in your hell....to hear you tell it...you're already there and don't know it yet, wanna come to my "church" my God wouldn't do that to you." ;;D....LMAOROTFL! Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 4:02pm ROFLMAO!! [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Tiannia on Jun 21st, 2004, 4:33pm My parents have told me that they feel that they failed me because I did not stay Christian. When I was a kid it all seemed rather simple and our preacher was never one for the Fire and Brimstone stories. But then I left for college. As I started counseling and working with abused children, I could not believe that the kind and loving God that I was raised to believe in could allow for such a thing to happen to innocent children. Nor could I find myself believing that the pain and anguish that they suffered would be the only chance at "living" that they would get. I believe that it is very true that people who spout the damnation speeches, have placed themselves in fear of living. We are human and it is human to make mistakes and learn from them. No one forces me to harm another person, I choose that. Nor does anyone force me to do what is right. That is up to me as well. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 21st, 2004, 4:37pm Tianna... Its pretty clear to me that your folks have failed quite a bit less than they have expressed to you. Ya seem pretty grounded in mind and spirit to me. Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Opus on Jun 21st, 2004, 5:52pm Ramon, I hope I am not repeating anything, but I had a hard time keeping up with what everyone said. First I believe that religion is wrong, my definition of religion is " A list of do's and don't ( including rituals and ceremonies ) that men use to gain God's favor ( usually heaven). Christianity is pure and simple, a gift was given by God so that all men could be saved. Anything added to that gift such as, baptism, not sinning, converting others, changing who you are, and adhering to church rules are all added by people and are not required. It is mostly peoples inability to believe that God can forgive their sins that makes them want to work for salvation. Jesus was rebel in eye's of the religious of his day, instead of acting better than perfect he partied with the sinners of his day, tax collectors and prostitutes. Jesus would not be allowed into most churches today, as he would probably be wearing sneakers, faded blue jeans and a Christian rock t-shirt ( probably POD ;;D) and with his long hair if they did let him in he would be kept to the back and looked at with contempt. I cannot vouch for Benny Hin but anyone who has a healing ministry really just needs to get people to believe that they can be healed. This a known fact in the medical field that if the patient believes the doctor can help them then there is a much greater chance that the treatment will help. The real sign that someone has the gift of healing is that they can heal an unconscious person or raise the dead. I will not judge anyones ministry as that is between them and God and all falsehoods will be revealed. I believe that Satan does exist, God gives free will to all senescent beings, mankind and angels alike, and that free will is not revocable. Satan rebelled against God and 1/3 of the angels went with him ( now know as demons ). God will never force anyone to worship him. Salvation is a means to get to heaven but there are other ways. People who have never heard the good news are judged on what they believe and how they act on it. The Jews are the chosen people of God and even though they do not believe in Jesus there is no mention of them going to hell. Salvation is simply the easy route, as there is nothing to do but accept a gift that is given freely. There are changes in the person who accepts this gift but they come from a new desire to change rather than a rule book. Telling someone they are going to hell is wrong in most cases, it generally only good when someone believes in hell and are afraid of going there. Telling everyone that unless they are saved they are going to hell pushes many people far away. Leading a life such as when people see a Christian stick to there values even when faced with terrible odds, that's people come up and say, how can I be like you. Tiannia, I don't know why certain things happen in this world but I do know that God has a special place in heaven for abused children and He has a special place in hell for child abusers. This life on earth is just a tiny part of our existence, there is so much more waiting for those children when they are finally home. Opus/Paul |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Tiannia on Jun 21st, 2004, 6:06pm on 06/21/04 at 17:52:51, Opus wrote:
Paul - Like I said in my first post. I will never attempt to convert anyone, as I do not have the right to come between them and their relationship with thier God, whomever or whatever they may call it by. I believe very devoutly in my faith and what has given me peace in this life. I truely hope that everyone is able to find that type of peace to calm thier inner deamons. (No pun intended, just that so many people scream and wail and expect things to fall into thier laps. I believe that you are responsible and accountable for your ouwn destiny and that the choices you make determine just how / when and if you are able to accomplish what you want ot in this life. ) -Tia |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Woobie on Jun 21st, 2004, 6:36pm You know... With the infinate amount of beliefs and religions in this world.. it's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to know who's right, who's wrong, what's real and what's not... who's lying and whos' telling the truth... and I stopped trying a long time ago. I spend a while trying to figure it all out - I learn whenever the opportunity presents itself to learn about a different religion or a different belief ... and it is INTERESTING TO ME....(from a learning and understanding standpoint) - but...... It was too much stress to try and figure out WHAT to believe. I worried about it - wondered about it.. talked about it .. read about it. And still came up with no answer. So i just form my own opinion, try to be the best person I can be... and go with it... and I leave everyone to their own beliefs. If the WHOLE world did that - OMG - what a world THAT would be. I'm done now............. I think this was an interesting thread tho - no one is lashing out at anyone - it's just a discussion. Nice. Tina :-* |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 21st, 2004, 6:46pm well spoken Ti and Opus (sorry for the mistake)... As I tried to express originally in this thread. I respect everyone's right to decide their own path, be it through Christianity or another faith. I only expect the same respect from others. My reason for posting this is because someone I care about has changed to the point that they have violated my personal beliefs in a way that most seem to find equally unacceptable, and for many, the reason they don't practice specific religons. The reason I felt this way is because it came to my understanding through conversation that I was definately doomed to hell, simply for the fact that I did not believe the same way as her. I considder her a friend but no matter who she is I feel its wrong to "assume" damnation of one's soul on the basis of difference of opinion. I was at a loss at the time on how to express my discomfort to her, because of my respect of her rights and dissapointed that she could not do the same, even though I suspect it was not intentional. Satan and God are both relevant to ones life experiences...if you need to label it one or the other to understand then fine. The principal of all anyone has said here is that Good is good and Evil is evil we only differ in our methods of obtaining inner peace. the point: I am comfortable with my version of religon and I accept your right to yours, but, please dont imply my doom because I dont think or worship like you... DON'T feel sorry for me I dont need your pity, pray for me if you think it will help, I appreciate your well wishes but don't do it out of pity for me. I'm sure there is someone who needs your prayers more than I. that said...anyone else have something to add? I love the diversity here. Ramon (modified for name change) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Woobie on Jun 21st, 2004, 6:50pm Isn't my husband the BOMB?? I love you, Ramon! |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 7:10pm Ramon, dude... You rule!! You and the Woobster are going to be at the convention, right? I can't wait to meet you! :) I feel like I already know you... :) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Rock_Lobster on Jun 21st, 2004, 7:13pm You guys do know that Frank is a Scientologist, right? ::) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 21st, 2004, 7:38pm Quote:
LMAO...sokay by me...I'm more of a Bhuddist myself ;) Quote:
YES WE WILL....and likewise Bro` :) I love this place! are we there yet?! :D Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by John_D on Jun 21st, 2004, 7:59pm My whole family is born-again religious. I have come to the point where I just don't see that stuff any more. If they start talking christianity, like the big one of meeting a born-again christian girl, I just change the subject. I practice buddhism, zen meditation, so I also used to have alot of trouble keeping my religious stuff and books out of their target sites. But at this point, I am so used to standing my ground on everything it really takes no effort at all. Of course it took the last 15 years of my life to get to that point, but if you have 15 or so to devote to this you are in like flynn ;) Just a little piece of my weird life in 10 font. John |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by kissmyglass on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:02pm How much Money did she give Benny?? ::) ::) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:13pm on 06/21/04 at 19:13:08, Rock_Lobster wrote:
Oh? And what fucking authority do you have this information on, a$$hole? Scientology can lick my bag. Do a web search on Lisa McPherson or Operation Clambake. I spent years fighting that murderous, torturing, robbing, lying organization, so go fuck yourself. >:( I think you owe me a goddamned apology for that piece of fucking slander. >:( |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Rock_Lobster on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:24pm Based on your other posts, you are the most level headed among us, religiously. Thus, suggesting that one such as you is a cult member is obviously a joke. So, nah. We all know that they are azzholes, without looking up Lisa McClambake. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:28pm Lisa McPherson was a woman that they abducted, imprisoned at Fort Harrison hotel in Florida, and basically starved her to death. She actually died of acute dehydration and the coroner's report/autopsy photos actually show cockroach bites on her. Here's a pretty thorough catalog of all the people they've killed over the years: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/ You can see why I took offense at being called a $cientologist. :( |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by John_D on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:34pm I don't think anyone realized you had a complete scientology neutralizing kit in your pocket. [smiley=crackup.gif] ;;D |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:34pm [smiley=referee.gif] Personal Foul on the offense...15 yard penalty repeat 3rd down. Dammit y'all...this was going so well until this point. >:( Jeepster, pls dont be offended, I dont think it was intentional...a joke...pls. :o Rock....you need to pick a different play...I know you were joking but pls, for everyone's sake ok? ::) re-start the game clock... 8) Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:39pm *Deep breath...exhale...* Sorry, Ramon. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:46pm You're a good boy ...yes you are :-* :D I unnerstand dude...just dont want the thread to turn ugly. Got time to go to chat? I'll be there ifn ya want. :) Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Charlie on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:50pm [quote]I cannot vouch for Benny Hin but anyone who has a healing ministry really just needs to get people to believe that they can be healed. This a known fact in the medical field that if the patient believes the doctor can help them then there is a much greater chance that the treatment will help. The real sign that someone has the gift of healing is that they can heal an unconscious person or raise the dead. I will not judge anyones ministry as that is between them and God and all falsehoods will be revealed. [/quote] I can and will. Benny Hinn is a criminal. He and the other so-called faith healers depend on fear and gullibiity to make a sweet living. That religious tv channels and those idiots at BET on weekends allow their shit, is also a crime. As to the other: H. L. Menckin said it well: A Puritan is a person that worries that someone, somewhere may be having a little fun. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Redd715 on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:52pm I Love all you guys...but I'm staying out of this topic...as they say religion, sex, politics....lol |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 21st, 2004, 8:53pm No time this evening, Ramon. I'm in the middle of a file transfer firedrill from my old computer to this new one. Charlie and I actually agree! Wow! Imagine that! ;;D |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by John_D on Jun 21st, 2004, 9:03pm on 06/21/04 at 20:52:46, Redd715 wrote:
yep, they say that they make the really interesting threads [smiley=sgrin.gif] ;;D |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by purpleydog on Jun 21st, 2004, 9:06pm I live my life as a good person, knowing I'm going to screw up at one point or another, make a mistake , learn from it and go on. I'll probably go to hell for not going to church. I don't believe in it. I really wonder if there is a god. Have any of you guys been abused? Don't answer that, but I'll bet there is a fair share of grown up kids here. Have you seen an abused child? No god I can think of would never allow that to happen. The will of god? That is just an excuse that people use when they can't deal with whatever their problem is. They have been taught to give up and put it into gods hands. The FEAR of god? Why should anyone fear god? He is all knowing, he is everywhere, he is benevolent. Have you sinned? God will forgive you, so you can sin some more. ::) Each religion believes different things, but all have a common premise, an almighty power that's bigger than them. I think it would be interesting for some non-christians to post their comments on this thread. purpleydog |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Redd715 on Jun 21st, 2004, 9:08pm [smiley=bloos.gif] still keeping my (edit... non christian) yap shut!! |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by eyes_afire on Jun 21st, 2004, 9:23pm Quote:
I already did ;;D --- Steve, damned... Come on Redd, you know you wanna.... |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Rock_Lobster on Jun 21st, 2004, 9:23pm Sorry about that Jeep. No offense at all was intended. In my circles they are pretty much a joke due to nifty items like the E-Meter... http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/E-Meter/ and the fact that promotions within the 'church' are directly tied to how much you spend on 'training'... 10's & 100's of thousands of $$$, as you all know. Scary site you linked to, but not suprising. The member that I know the best is in debt up to her eyeballs to pay for the 'sessions'. No chance of ever retiring... she gave up her families future for her title in that org. Rock |
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Title: Commercial interlude....... Post by Mr. Happy on Jun 22nd, 2004, 12:00am Y'all really need to take a few minutes and worship at the Alter of Wotan........ The rule book said "Thou shalt have no other gods before me...." Beauty. We're in like Flint. Wotan's happy to have a job, and is a legal 2nd to the Big Guy. He's a friendly god, except when he's pissed off......which is most of the time. Shortage of virgins, and all that. Choose wisely. So many gods, so little time...... (http://www.drfeller.com/clustology/godman.html) RJ |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by stevegeebe on Jun 22nd, 2004, 12:01am Tell them the following: Go outside at night and look up. What ever made all this, will not, in the least bit, require your help in passing judgment. Thank you and be good. Steve G |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Tiannia on Jun 22nd, 2004, 1:04am on 06/21/04 at 21:06:57, purpleydog wrote:
And the pentacle to the left means??????? Believe me hun, I am about as far as away from being a Christian then is humanly possible. I dont believe in the Christian God or the other diety of Christianisty, Satan. I do not believe that abused children are taken "home" when they die. I believe that we are all reborn, that we are given lessons to learn to allow us to grow spiritually in each and every life that we are given. That each life allows us to learn and grow as a person and a spirit. That there are things that we are put through in each life that that we can better undersatnd what is happening in the next life. There is no "life after death" because there is no death. I will not be standing at the desk of Saint Peter waiting to be judged to see IF I can get into heaven or sent to hell. I know and take complete responsibility for the actions that I have taken in this life. And those decisions will come back to me 9 fold (9 times over again), the good and the bad. Does that mean that I always do what is right? No, It means that when I have chosen to act in a way that could harm or will harm someone then I am accpeting that I will have to pay for that action either in this life or the next. Some call it KARMA. Does this mean that I still dont question? Of course I do. But I learned that there are things in this life that I can not handle on my own and that if I am able to turn it over to the God and Goddess that I know that myself and my family will be provided for. It has happened time and time again. And I have no reason to doubt that my faith is what gets me through each and everyday. ok I will stop now, rather then continuing the rambling. Sorry for those that did not want a long read. ;) -Tia |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Redd715 on Jun 22nd, 2004, 6:54am Couldn't have said it better myself Tia....thanks. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 22nd, 2004, 7:46am I am not a Christian. My beliefs are more in line with Taoism or Sufism, though I subscribe to neither. |
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Title: love heals Post by rumplestiltskin on Jun 22nd, 2004, 9:47am ...well...I had been thinking about what I could possibly post to Jonny's "In yer face" thread. I felt some balance to the fear expressed there was warranted....butt I just couldn't find the words....then this thread appears. Gravity exists. Our opinions don't change that. We do use it's laws differently.... From the wrestler who dives from the turnbuckle to the kid that spits in the ocean. If this lady in question believes that a good friend is going to fall and get seriously hurt, it is only a natural loving thing that she should try to prevent that from happening. Civil law even requires us as parents to impose those beliefs on our children till they are 18....to not allow them to harm themselves or others. ...there are no kids here. Imposing one's beliefs on another, which, I believe, is the heart of this thread, when one believes lives are at stake, is certaining a quagmire. If you knew that a piano was about to fall on my head I would expect you to warn me and if there wasn't time for me to react I would appreciate you pushing my skinny ass out of the way......against my will or not. Seems a day doesn't go by that someone isn't trying to save me from hell...terrorists...pianoes...or being thrown through a windshield if the car wrecks. Thanks...but I'm over 18...and free to choose. Drummer doesn't believe in free will....that's his choice. Good Grief den |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Donna_D. on Jun 22nd, 2004, 10:53am You're going to Hell!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_124.gif Raised Baptist, DD ;;D |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 22nd, 2004, 10:58am Ditto, DD!! Ugh... LOL! |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Big Dan on Jun 22nd, 2004, 11:15am I'm just here to make some ripples in the pond, and beat feet 'fore anyone finds me.... "See, life is like a job. Everyday, you show up to work and you make your wages... $14.50. When you die, you go to heaven, and God is standing there with this HUGE pile of money, and he figures up how many days you worked and gives you your money... he doesn't need a calculator or anything. But, don't forget about your sins. For every sin, you have to pay God back. For example, if you stole a bag of chips when you were a kid... well... that's like... $6.00. Every time you lied... $10.00 If you ever murdered anyone... now.. that's a big one... it's like... $100,000.00..... ... Masterbation.... that's like... I dunno... 30... maybe 35 cents... but it adds up... Now, if you can't afford to pay for all your sins, you have to live life ALL over again until you get it right... Lately.. I've been having this bad nightmare. I'm an old man, and I died. And there I am, standing in front of God.... ... and I'm just 35 cents short." - Father Guido -Big Dan |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 11:22am I like Big D's theory.........I could live with that ifn I didn't have my own . ;) RAmon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 22nd, 2004, 11:27am LOL, Big Dan! That sounds like a pretty good explanation of karma and reincarnation to me! :D |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 22nd, 2004, 11:35am Oh man, I am so sorry I have gotten into this post so late. It would take me hours to address each person who has said something I could comment to. Let me just touch on some things as I am really pressed for time at the moment. Cerebus, I believe your friend is genuinely concerned for you and your soul and she wants to make sure you hear the gospel. What likely happened is that she, probably being a new Christian, got on a roll and got in too deep. I am a conservative, Bible believing fundamental Christian. Alot of people would rather scare you into heaven than lull you into hell by candy coating the gospel. I take a different approach 99% of the time. That approach being what I know to be true, and what I have experienced, not only in my life but in the lives of thousands I have come in contact with. First, Benny Hinn. A nutcake in my book who serves only to capitalize on "faith healing" to purchase big houses and cars in expensive communities. Capitalizing on the weak to become strong. Your friend has fallen into his trap, unfortunately. Is faith healing real? Absolutely! Have I seen it? Yes, on 3 separate occasions, they were complete miracles, to the point that even the non Christian doctors were astounded. But does it happen the way Benny Hinn does it, I don't believe so. It happens when, for example, a little old lady comes into the hospital room of a teenager named Heather. Heather was not supposed to live through the night. The little old lady asked quietly if she could pray for Heather. The family said yes. She annointed Heather with a small amount of oil on her forhead and prayed silently for her. After praying, she told the family "God bless you." and left. 4 hours later, Heather was conscious. By the next morning she was screaming to get out of the hospital. The next day she was discharged. Miracle. I was there for all of it. Guys, it really does matter what you believe. For example, I can believe with all my heart that I can walk through walls, but that doesn't make it so. As soon as I attempt to, I end up with a headache. Irregardless of what we believe, there is absolute truth. Here is something to chew on. I believe the majority of you who have doubts about Christianity would still say that Jesus was a good person who taught on peace and love. Many would say he was also a great teacher. That is also true. But here is the problem. Jesus claimed to be God. He said, "I am the Way the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except they come through me." When the pharisees told Jesus, "How long will you keep us in suspense, are you the Christ?" Jesus responded that if they had seen him, they had seen the Father, meaning he was again claiming to be God. This happened many times. So for Jesus to claim to be God, he couldn't be a just good teacher or a good person. Because since he claimed to be God, He had to either be a Wacko, a Liar, or who he said he was. I choose to Believe that Jesus Christ is who he said he was. A man who never traveled more than 30 miles, who never wrote a book himself, who never was on CNN, or any radio program or newspaper. And yet the words he said and the miracles he accomplished were so powerful, we still talk about it in churches acrossed this world today. The pharisees said it best when they said, lets leave this new Way movement alone. Many people have come claiming to be Christ and where are they now. If Jesus is not the Christ, his followers will diminish quickly and what harm is there. If he is the Christ, what penalty will we receive for harming him. Let this movement alone and see what happens. They didn't leave it alone, killing and imprisoning thousands in the early church, yet here we are today. Now, if you are still with me, understand that I do not judge, it is not my position to judge. But I know what I know to be true because were it not for my faith in Christ, and his providential hand seen over and over again in my life, witnessed by others, I would not be alive today. The gospel is this in a nutshell...... For God so loved the World that He sent His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 I will try and answer anything I can, but don't try and get into a shouting match with me, cuz I won't do it. I value my role as a pastor to much. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 22nd, 2004, 11:41am Rev, I respect your beliefs and the work you are doing for God, and the spiritual guidance and comfort that you give to others. Blessings & Love. -Frank |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 12:40pm Thanks for the input Rev...point taken and respected. Most of all thanks for respecting the right to make up our own minds. I still hold to my personal beliefs. The term "God" and the antagonist "Satan" are used too loosely in todays religon. I still hold fast to the notion that the naming or personifying of any higher power is merely a way for mankind to understand the un-understandable. Allah is God to some, Bhudda is God to some, etc. etc. in all cases it is merely a humanization of something people cannot fully comprehend, another way to create order out of chaos. As for the (modern Christian) Bible...its a book, documented historically as created and compiled at the behest of the first roman emporer by the bishops of the same time period to keep order within the empire and keep the common folk from being disorderly and overthrowing the government. (well...the old testament and revelation anyhow). It makes perfect sense, the rich don't want to lose their wealth and power and it is the greatest scheme of all time to retain the same. As to the information contained therein...much of it is translated from the dead sea scrolls, the talmud, Letters and poetry, of the apostles and much more recent litterature such as dante's inferno...if you have read both of the latter you will notice striking similarities between revelations and the inferno. Again....all with the exception of the latter were written in languages that do not translate directly to any other...who are we to assume we know what the ancient scriptures really say? Although I agree that the foundation of the bible is "absolute truth" ........it is also the foundation of every religon in the world past and present. Be kind, Be mindful of your neighbors and surroundings, Love all things great and small and conduct your life accordingly....Only Satanism teaches otherwise and some focus more on humanity than others. However, I cannot take the writings of man as litteral "absolute" truth...facts are facts men are fallible and if you tell a story to one man and he tells it to another even once things get left out or forgotten, we have to remember that when the stories in the good book are over 3000 yrs. old and are translated from writings that dont translate completely. The great rejected books........why were not all the scriptures included? Some very important lessons are to be learned from some of the writings that were deliberately left out. Not only that but some of them were written by apostles that christianity reveres as holy...why then would you not include ALL of their teachings if they are so holy. There are three versions of the book of Revelation but why include the one and not the others? Because no one wants a human Jesus... and people need to think there is a reward or permanent punishment for their behavior its the only reason other than the idea of Peter's version of revelation supports the notion of Hell's impermanency and people would continue to be bad if they knew they could be reprieved from hell. Jesus was sent to earth as a man (by our own admission) then it only stands to reason that since Jesus was a man he had to deal with all of the trappings of such. Temptation, Amusement , Anger, Lust, Greed, and so on....most of which are accounted for within the bible. However...what happened in Jesus's life between the ages of 12 and 30? Not one single blurb about it, is it not important enough to know that Jesus as an adolescent, teen and young man was probably just as onery as we are/were? Of course not, it would tarnish the generally accepted view of a "Clean and Perfect" God...it would prove fallibility to something/one that is supposed to be "perfect" and create chaos out of a very nicely packaged order. These are only the begginings of my many probelms with Christianity....I do/will not subscribe to the conform or be cast out movement. I dont need people explaining the Bible or God to me to be satisfied. I love life, and its origins...I try my damnedest to act accordingly, I am a "sinner" and I openly admit it. I am not perfect and probably never will be, if I make a mistake I try to ammend it and if I fail in that...well then at least I tried. I am not going waste my lifetime worrying about other's view of me. I am fundamentaly good and try to live that way. With that in mind, I am comfortable in my beliefs but others aren't and seem to refuse to leave me be about it... I dont push my views on you trying to make you see the error of your ways because of the fact that I know I am not always right and I dont expect you or any other person to do it to me. I am comfortable with my beliefs and you with yours is that not enough for us to be friends and co-exist? Do we all really have to think alike? Are the Jews going to hell? They don't believe in Jesus as the messiah and they dont believe in a fire and brimstone hell.....yet they are the "chosen people" and there is no mention anywhere of eternal damnation for the entire religon so why should I assume it for my beliefs? Not a shouting match....just discussion on the subject posted here...I appreciate your input and opinion. (edited for grammatical,punctuation and to add thoughts) Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 12:58pm BTW Rev... I appreciate the work you do...some folks need guidance more than others, I am happy that it is someone like you trying to show others truth...it is quickly becoming the exception and not the norm these days. :) I also would like to point out a comparison. The basic foundation of christianity is the almost exactly the same as bhuddism with the exception of the recognition of Jesus and any God in specific. I.E. love and be loved, live cleanly (disengage from and reject self defeating behaviors), respect all things great and small, and spread/teach these principals to others. All religons are meant to teach this...they just do it differently. ;) Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Opus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 1:26pm Ramon, During the years that Jesus lived between 12 and 30 He obeyed his parents, even though it didn't make sence to Him, learned the trade of his stepfather, and kept out of the public eye until he was ready for His ministry. It would be intresting to know about Josephs dead or dissapearence, about Jesus's interaction with His brothers and sisters, and how well Jesus did in His trade. But alass, all seems lost to history as unimportant. Jesus showed that he delt with emotions just as we do. He felt anger when he fund the money changers in the temple and trashed the place, He felt dismay when the disciples couldn't see what was happening in front of their face, He felt proud when he was treated like a king during the triuphal entry, He felt anguish and dispair in the garden when He relized he was facing the unknown becouse God had never died before. I guess these emotions far out wieghed what He felt before. All Chrstians are sinners, they are only consitered to be pure becouse of the covering of Christ they have put on. I agree that the old testaminate is just as important as the new, new Christians tend to write off the OT as no longer relavent, but later they will learn that everything that is in the NT is in the OT. And last, the only problems with Cristianity were put there by man, I am not saying that Cristianity makes sense, it teaches to give to recieve, become last to be first, give all and expect nothing in return, and become a servant to lead. As Jesus said " I will be a stumbling block to many", and that is what happens to many. Opus/Paul |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by John_D on Jun 22nd, 2004, 1:52pm what is needed is mutual understanding among religions of the world http://www.bytebrothers.org/shitlist.htm |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 2:15pm There are many wisdoms brought forth in your post Opus..as well as many more questions. So when I quote you pls dont think I am picking apart your beliefs...I am merely trying to make a point...again, I respect your right to believe what you want as long as I am as well. Quote:
On being historically "unimportant" I would think that every waking moment of Jesus's life would be historically imortant if he is to be considered the one true God. A contradiction to the point no? I gave reference to Jesus having felt very real human emotions...I do not challenge that. In that though as an early teen and being "God" it must have been a considerable challenge to not use his power in a self-serving manner...a problem that plagues mankind to this day yet no mention of it in the Bible....only in the scriptures not included in the final version...why? Quote:
If he is God....then this is not possible...it would be better to teach that God struggled as a man because he had to live under human limitations than to suggest otherwise...Christianity rarely conveys this idea. Quote:
I wont contest this idea...however, it is those who project that because they are Christian and worship in a particular way that they are holier than thou tha is turning people away...they claim admission of their faults/sins but suddenly become "holier than thou" when faced with conflicting ideas or practices... its contradictory to the teaching of thier own God and its wrong. Quote:
All religons are based on this....few men practice it which is the whole point of this thread. Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Charlie on Jun 22nd, 2004, 3:15pm Christian zealotry in our country has had its ups and downs throughout our short history. At the time of our founding it was in a slump. This was widely true among white, well-fed crabby guys who set us up. They were very careful and very different for the time. They weren’t anti-religion but anti noisy types that screamed bloody murder every time something new appeared. At that time, you professed piety or else. It returned big time in the mid 19th century, once having other ideas didn't necessarily send one to prison or the gallows. It took a beating in the world wars and here we are. Most of you weren't around in the 1950s and while I'm not one who is crazy about the 'good old days,' my perception is that on the whole, religion for white, American Christians was kinder and gentler. I never heard the term: "Conservative Christian" back then. I don’t like what TV does to religion. Now everybody is Billy Sunday, a decidedly unpleasant human being, or a Kathrine Kulman. Television attracts the loud and the larcenous. It's meaner than what we had half a century ago. There are no Bishop Fulton J. Sheens. (God he was good. He had wonderful messages, and knew how to hold an audience) I saw a few minutes rerun of him on the Catholic channel a few months ago. If he were on regularly, I'd probably watch him again. He was fun too. Local broadcast services on Sunday didn't go out of the way to scare us to death, threaten eternal damnation if you hit the wrong lever or take credit cards. Up here in Yankee hell, it was the politicians that told us Elvis was evil, not our preachers. Churches in my area didn't rant about the evils of everything not found in the bible so much as the joys of the world to come. Now we have hell-fires and wackos on the tube. There are some fun ones though. My favorite is Robert Tilton. He pops up on BET and elsewhere, in the wee hours mostly. He's the guy with the shit-eating grin who asks us to send him $1,000 or else. If you do, God will quickly get on your side and see to it that your portfolio will spring to life and you'll wipe your personal debt. You have to be awe of his directness. He doesn't have a Christian message anyway, he just pays for his spot. To their credit, you won't find him on TCT or other religious channels. I'd like to believe its not just because of competition. Anyway, here I just wanted to say that the messages way back when didn’t always ask you to shut down your life. I find it regressive today and I also think that some of these pious politicians are taking a lot believers for a ride. What a thread and it's amazing how careful we've been here. Peace Charlie |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 22nd, 2004, 4:13pm Just a couple of thoughts..... The basic tenets of Christianity is not love everybody, lets all feel good about ourselves. The basic tenet, or foundation stone for Christianity is that there is eternal separation from God apart from an acceptance of his gift of salvation, his ultimate sacrifice. In the Jewish time before Christ, it was required that there be a blood sacrifice of a spotless lamb to atone for sin. That was the only way for sin to be forgiven. We believe, as Christians that Jesus was God's supreme one time spotless lamb, sent as a sacrifice, that by believing in him, sin's are forgiven and a right relationship with God is restored. I had a friend who was an athiest converted to Christ. I asked him why. His response was, "Richard, when my 9 year old daughter was dying, I found myself praying to a God I didn't believe in. I decided at that point, that there wasn't much use in denying his existence because my soul cries out to him in my darkest hours." I want to ask you a simple question. It is not a question to make you believe, because you should never believe just because of this question. But I am a logical thinker, so any information I can gather helps me as I stroll through this life. If Christ is not really who he said he was, and there really is no God, and you live your life glorifying him, then all you have lost is those years which you served him, which happened to be your happiest times. You return to the ground and no harm done. But if Jesus Christ is really who he said he was, God is real and just, and you live your life denying him, then all you have lost is everything. Charlie, don't get me started on Robert Tilton. Apart from that cat reminding me of Bert from Sesame Street, that wacko is one of the biggest con artists of our day. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Charlie on Jun 22nd, 2004, 4:23pm Yeah but I look at him for a few minutes. It's hard not to. The guy is so over the top that it's a circus act. He spews some kind of jibberish during every show. Is that supposed to be some kind of tongue thing? What a trip he is. I understand they prosectued him in the past. Like you say; these guys help no one, especially the faitful. Charlie |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Opus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 5:05pm Ramon, Thank you for your kind words, and I love to have my beliefs scrutinized, it makes me think of what I actually believe. on 06/22/04 at 13:26:23, Opus wrote:
on 06/22/04 at 14:15:48, Cerberus wrote:
What I actually tried to convey is that because Jesus went through so much during his ministry that before it was not important. Maybe you do understand and it is me who is confused ;;D The fact that all 4 Gospels left this part of His life out means to me that God edited this out. Why, I have no understanding of many things that God does. The same thing happened to the genealogies where men who didn't contribute to history were left out. It may because this part of His life would have confused people. I think of where Jesus called His mother "woman" at the cross as an attempt to keep her status from being raised too high and even this failed in certain denominations. So far I have enjoyed this thread greatly and it will be a big help to me in the future. Opus/Paul PS, sorry about the last post, I ran it through the spell checker and must have forgot to paste. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Rock_Lobster on Jun 22nd, 2004, 5:10pm Well articulated discussion, though I disagree with the 'simple question' topic Rev... This was posted by a lad on Fark just this very day... sums up my feelings on the pseudo-faithful with specifity... The thing that gets me is the "just in case"-ers. They go to church "just in case" the bible is right. They believe in Jesus "just in case" he will send them to heaven. Well in that case, you better sacrifice a virgin on the spring equinox "just in case" the aztecs were right. Also, you better get started on your pyramid "just in case" the sun-god RA is up there watching. I also believe that including a link to an attractive female will make more people read ones post. In this case I have selected Faith Hill. http://cityguide.jconline.com/fe/photos/20021025_faith_hill.jpg Regards, Rock |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 5:43pm I will answer your question...to the best of my understanding. Quote:
Answer: Whether not I accept or deny God/Jesus I will return to the ground and no harm done. Life ends its fact. I have to wonder if what you are really asking is what is my reward or punishment for what I do in this life...the answer to that is that I expect no reward nor punishment...I recieve those things in life if/when I do them. I don't need to be rewarded for doing good the feeling I get when I do it is enough. I dont need to be punished for doing evil...the consequences of the law and treatment of society and individuals is enough for me to learn the difference between right or wrong. Now I have questions of you: Why do you need reward or punishment at the end of this life? And why do you need God to validate your place in the universe? I'm curious, about Your friends former atheism. Would he have converted under the same circumstances had he never heard the words God or Jesus spoken to him in a religous context prior to that event? To take a guess at the last question...Probably not, in today's world there is little chance of living all of your days without hearing any reference to God from ANY religon. What true good has come from disrupting a cultures beliefs by imposing different values upon the peoples who practiced it...were they not happy before and who decided that? Rev...I don't want to give you the wrong impression. I believe in Good and Evil. I believe that Jesus lived and had some type of extremely strong connection to the power of Good. I also believe that the core (thats the key word) of the teachings of the Bible serve mankind as good basic standards to live by in general.....none of those things I contest in the least. I do hesitate to call the power of Good "God" that is a man-made name and concept. Its religon itself that I distrust...it is a tool men use to placate individuals into one or more forms of unified submission. I also very much dislike being "condemned" for my belief system by Christians or any other faiths...its a contradiction and discredit to all of em as I do not judge others for their beliefs and I respect thier right to do so unless it causes random injury or death to others no matter what faith they may be. Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 22nd, 2004, 6:12pm [quote author=Rock_Lobster link=board=general;num=1087780173;start=75#79 date=06/22/04 at 17:10:11] The thing that gets me is the "just in case"-ers. They go to church "just in case" the bible is right. They believe in Jesus "just in case" he will send them to heaven. Well in that case, you better sacrifice a virgin on the spring equinox "just in case" the aztecs were right. Also, you better get started on your pyramid "just in case" the sun-god RA is up there watching. I don't believe in believing "just in case" which is why I qualified my statement. I also believe that including a link to an attractive female will make more people read ones post. In this case I have selected Faith Hill. http://cityguide.jconline.com/fe/photos/20021025_faith_hill.jpg I could always see a pic of Faith Hill. She is truly a beauty of a lady. Cerebrus, It is not that I "need" punishment or reward in the after life, it is what I believe will happen. Were there no punishment or reward, I would still live for Christ. As far as Dudley coming to know the Lord, I believe James or Paul, can't remember in this off the cuff post, talks about how God wrote into creation signs of himself. That is how we are able to go to entire tribes that worship God, even though no missionaries have ever been there. It is really hard in a forum like this to address all questions, because A)It is hard to read attitudes without hearing tone of voice and watching body language, and B)It can quickly turn into a deep theological discussion which I don't think any of us have the stomach for. Suffice it to say, I have seen the hand of God at work in my own heart and life. It is not a crutch, but if it were, it would be no less true for me. I know there are alot of Christians or so called Christians that do not represent Christ the way they should. And I am no hypocrit, I admit that I do not represent him like I should either. But I am trying, and He is still working on me. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Cerberus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 6:50pm Quote:
Good enough Rev.... I respect that and appreciate your candor. :) I still remain within my beliefs I did not intend to offend if I have. Ramon |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 22nd, 2004, 6:52pm No offense here man. There should never be offense at open communication. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jimi on Jun 22nd, 2004, 6:56pm And all God's people said.................AMEN! |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by eyes_afire on Jun 22nd, 2004, 9:08pm Quote:
I have heard this cliche so many times. The problem comes when the 'live your life glorifying god' means: no movies, no music, limited (or no) book reading, no alcohol, you must convert x number of people or risk having their blood on your hands, you must vote for our favorite political party (and we all know which one that is), no unclean thoughts (and we all know what that means), catholics are going to hell and so are jehovahs witnesses, special rules for women: no slacks, no makeup, no earrings, you must vote the same as your husband. the list goes on. and you think you catholics have guilt ::) (interestingly enough, I was 'born a catholic'... whatever that means). A 5-year old child should not have to go to bed fearing they will be struck down by some stupid god. Then the problem is trying to ensure everyone follows the rules. What ensues in the congregation is gossip, backstabbing, rumours, misappropriation of funds, scandal, sexual crimes, and chaos. I reject the above mentioned rules. It's bullshit. I will never submit to those kind of rules, ever. Happiest times my ass. It is anti-life. Most people can eventually overcome the mindfuck, but for some personality types, such thinking will become pathologically destructive. I've seen it. Quote:
Yes. They are nearly identical. The goal of both is to crush the 'great satan' (and, by definition, each other). --- Steve, long live Catharsis |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 22nd, 2004, 9:37pm Rev, I'd be curious to hear your opinion on Hell and eternal separation from God, because as I said earlier in the thread, if God is perfect, then God's justice must also be perfect. Casting souls into ETERNAL TORMENT with no hope of reprieve... Well, that would be God's wastepaper basket, and therefore, would be an admission of failure, right? There's no justice in casting people into ETERNAL HELL for a decision that they made in this brief breath of a life. Right? I also think that modern religion tends to lead mankind AWAY from spiritual freedom, since people treat God like a Cosmic Santa, and blame everything that's wrong with their lives on the Devil. Freedom and personal, individual responsibility go hand in hand. As for Jesus, I believe that he was the Annointed One, having attained Christ Consciousness, which is a spiritual mantle, title, an indicator of spiritual attainment. Jesus' last name was not "Christ," but rather, he had attained the Christos, the state of union with God that led him to state, "I and the Father are one." I have also had such experiences in deep states of contemplative prayer and devotion. According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, Jesus was raised as an Orthodox Jew and during the "lost years," studied with the Essenes, who were to Judaism as the Sufis are to Islam. The Essenes were healers, nomads, and Gnostics. (i.e. A contemplative, mystical order.) And "mystic" is in the sense of proving truth to oneself, rather than the weird definitions that have been assigned to it since the time of Madame Blavatsky and the parlor tricks that were popular in the 1920's. Anyway... Just some more thoughts... |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 22nd, 2004, 9:56pm "no movies" - I go to movies all the time. No mention in the scriptures of not going to movies. "no music" - I love music and have sung professionally for a number of years. What we don't like is some of the filth in music that is just plain immoral whether you are a Christian or not. Almost the entire book of Psalms was originally music. David was famous for playing his harp. "limited (or no) book reading" - I have over 6,000 books in my library. No scripture prevents book reading. "no alcohol" - Been debated in churches for years. I think we all know you cause yourself and your loved ones potential problems when you over indulge. There is not a case in scripture that requires complete abstinance from alcohol. "you must convert x number of people or risk having their blood on your hands" - No where in scripture is there a requirement to witness to a specific number of people. And no where does it say in scripture that you must convert people. In fact, scripture teaches the opposite. That you deliver the message and you are not responsible for the result. The Spirit does that. "you must vote for our favorite political party (and we all know which one that is)" - Having convictions, either on moral grounds or on policy issues is not a bad thing. Nor does any scripture say to vote republican or democrat. Nor can a church tell you how to vote. "no unclean thoughts (and we all know what that means)" - Paul said himself that he deals with issues of the mind. It is normal as a human. What is not normal is to allow those unclean thoughts to define who you are, nor is it acceptable for those unclean thoughts to be carried out in the real world. "catholics are going to hell and so are jehovahs witnesses" - So are Baptists, so are Methodists, so are Presbyterians, so are Pentecostals - Christianity is not about religion or title but about a relationship with Jesus Christ. "special rules for women: no slacks, no makeup, no earrings, you must vote the same as your husband. the list goes on. and you think you catholics have guilt ::) (interestingly enough, I was 'born a catholic'... whatever that means)." - All of these items are rules of man, not God. Eyes, with all due respect, it sounds like your entire base for not believing in God is not God's fault at all. You have been warped by the rules of man and a legalistic approach to God. Not one of the things you have mentioned are from the Bible. Your problem is not with God or Christianity, but with whatever church you or your family went to. "What ensues in the congregation is gossip, backstabbing, rumours, misappropriation of funds, scandal, sexual crimes, and chaos." Unfortunately, these things do happen. Especially the gossip, backstabbing, and rumors. But in almost any congregation, at least that I have had the privilege to attend or do concerts for, the amount of individuals that participate in these items in a way that demeans the church is less than 5%. Unfortunately, those 5% make a bad name for the rest of us that live our faith day to day and try to breathe words of encouragement to others. "I reject the above mentioned rules. It's bullshit. I will never submit to those kind of rules, ever. Happiest times my ass. It is anti-life." I have refrained from badmouthing anyone, and I will do the same here. But I must respectfully ask how you can say that my Christian life has not been the happiest times of my life? You do not know me, nor what I have experienced. I counter with, though you have not experienced what I have, I cannot fault you for where you are in your life. Don't fault me for where I am. Jeep, I will respond to your message in email. It is hard to field some of the things you ask without sounding too preachy or like it is a theoligical class. Plus I have my baby in my arms while I type all this with one hand. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by eyes_afire on Jun 22nd, 2004, 10:08pm I'm sorry Rev, there is a misunderstanding here. When I said 'happiest times my ass' I meant it for me. I was not commenting on your your christian life. No harm, just want to clear that up. Perhaps I misunderstood that part of your original quote. All's good. I agree totally with this: Quote:
Right on. --- Steve |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 22nd, 2004, 10:40pm cool man. I know, churches are filled with imperfect people. My grandfather had this written in his Bible. The church is a hospital for sinners, not a communion for saints. Unfortunately it is hard to find churches today that aren't filled with strife. But I suppose on some level that has been that way for a long time. Early in my ministry, I served in a church that had 98 pastors in a 102 years of church history. Some of that time was when circuit riding preachers were around, and they would have 2 or 3 in a year, but still. That was a hard place to be. On the other hand, the church I serve in now is the sweetest place I know. Everyone gets along, everyone is on the same page, everyone is motivated. Beautiful people. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Opus on Jun 22nd, 2004, 11:09pm on 06/22/04 at 21:08:28, eyes_afire wrote:
All theses things have to do with religion, Christianity is really anti-religion. As far as I can see there are no organized churches in this country that practice Christianiy without adding religion to it. I do follow God's teaching that I should refrien from doing things I know I am free to do when I am in the presence of Christians who do not understand the freedom in Christ. When I am away from them I use the freedoms I know I have. I once saw a program on PBS about a researce team that was traveling up a river on an Island in search of a lost tribe of headhunters. As they traveled up the river they came upon peaple who were once anialmist, their lives were controled but what types of animals crossed there path and they lived in fear of the wrong animal cursing them. What impressed me was a man who said " Now we have Jesus, we don't have to afraid anymore". Christianty is freedom from fear. I think the state of Christian churches is well stated in the song " send a message" by KingsX. i am who i am and i don't doubt it you are who you are is what i know hearing all the words of many others does it make a difference when they're wrong here we are somewhere in the circle dancing madly backwards round about and who's to blame for little ones who stumble who can throw the stone and knock them out there is trouble in the kingdom send a message to the king there is trouble in the kingdom send a message to the king i heard a voice whisper in the thunder i believe his words but who am i hearing all the words of many others standing before pharisees and scribes Opus/Paul |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Tiannia on Jun 22nd, 2004, 11:34pm on 06/22/04 at 16:13:53, RevDeFord wrote:
Why is it a matter of one or the other? And both, God and Jesus at the same time? To me, Rev, I'd hav to say that I dont fit into either of your examples. Personally I believe that Jesus was a person, who was a great teacher. That he had much to say and that his teachings in general where to be used as guidelines for living as a Christian. But many of those teachings today are twisted by many religions to fit thier own agendas. There have been many teachers throughout many religions. I believe in "The" God and "The" Goddess. As there is duality in everytihng in this world, for me there has to be a duality in the higher spirit as well. There are many traditions within Paganism, that mirror the denominations of Christianity. The British trad for example is very much like the Catholic church. They are very strict in rituals and such. While there are others that are extremely laid back. And many in between. I dont deny that there is a God. It is not the same "God" that you are refering to, as there are many connotations that are tied to the Christian God. Thus one of the big reasons for why I searched other religions and found that Wicca was for me a fit to what I already believed and accepted in my heart. No one apostulized to me to convert me. But the pagan god and goddess are not infallable, nor are they always "just". (I have always had a hard time with this specific aspect of the Christian God. A just God. What exactly does that mean? That you have to accept that if you are condemned because God did not agree with my you made this choice or that choice, even if you thought that you where doing the right this. That it is ok, because he is Just and therefore always right?) As they have the same traits that we have. Thus no one is being judged at the end of their life. The choices that we make allow us to take responsibility for my own destiny and my conciquences. Wicca, as well as the other forms of Paganism, is not a religion as much as it is a way of like. I dont do what I do to Glorify God. I dont do anything to deny him wither. I know that each and every day that I am in this life, will effect someone. And that it is by MY choices what that effect will be. If the choices that I made harm someone then it is up to me to attempt to make amends for that if I can. Where as if I "know" that I am perposefully going to hurt someone by doing X then it is again my choice to do that as well. What is there for me to lose if I am working each day to do what is right? Does that mean that a child who never hears of God, dies and Quote:
That is the part that I am confused about your question Rev. Where in your examples is there any room for those who are good honest people, but they are not living thier "life glorifying him"? Are they just SOL? -Tia |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Big Dan on Jun 22nd, 2004, 11:39pm Quote:
The Church of Big Dan's own home has always done me good. If -Big Dan |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Mr. Happy on Jun 23rd, 2004, 12:01am Quote:
Atta boy, Dan.....that's the spirit. One man, one god. You'll need a Shingle. (http://www.ulc.org/) More isn't always better, RJ (http://drfeller.com/clustology/godman.html) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 23rd, 2004, 7:50am Tia, Thanks for your reply. As far as good people goes, let me share some verses from the Bible that make it pretty clear. I will commentate little so as to not muddy the water. Romans 3:-18, 23 10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15. Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17. And the way of peace have they not known: 18. There is no fear of God before their eyes. 23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; John 3, 1-12 - This is where the the term "born again" comes from. 1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? These are just 2 examples of may where the Bible shows that apart from Christ, none of us are "good enough", because we all fall short of God's standard of holiness. Nicodemus was a religious person who kept the 10 commandments as close as he could, who was benevolent and respected by all, and yet Jesus told him unless he is born again, he cannot see heaven. But you know, as sinful as all of us are, as short as we fall to God's standard, there are still many many verses like this.......... 1 John 1:9 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Please understand this post is in no wise meant to be judgemental of anyone. I fall far short of God's standard too. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 23rd, 2004, 10:45am Rev, did you reply to my query? I'm wondering if my spam filter goofed, or if you just haven't gotten around to it, yet. My email is: placid@charter.net Looking forward to corresponding with you, my friend. -Frank |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Leesa on Jun 23rd, 2004, 11:36am Well here I go with my 2 cents...... I was raised in a baptist home from the time I can rem. My father only went to church when someone got married or they died. Then my mother found a new chuch along with my sister. I can still see clearly in my head like it was yes. him preaching "hell, fire and brim stone if you dont ask for forgiveness of your sins!" My mother and sister would DRAG me everytime the church door opened. It made me NUTS to hear the same thing over and over again. I stopped going to chuch after my mother passed way when I was 12 cuz I was angry at God for letting my mother take her own life and she left me to deal with all the BS. When my father passed away in 95 his new wife had him get is "last rights" from a priest. Okay. I moved on with my life and found a CATHOLIC church in Alabama where I was welcomed by the priest with open arms. Father Ray told me in one of MANY talks............"As long as you believe in a God, Jesus, or whom ever and you do what you know is right in YOUR heart then it doesnt matter what church you go as long as you show up." Father Ray helped to see that no matter what you or who you believe in makes no difference as long as you believe! Ive looked high and low for a church that I feel about going to and I havent found it yet. I keep looking here in TN but havent found it YET!Ill know it when I find it. I will always believe in John 3:16. I hate the fact that my own sister and brother cant deal with me and the way I choose to live my life with out tossin it in my face that Im a sinner and going to hell if I dont see things the very same way they do. Hence the reason I havent spoken with either of them in 3 yrs. People believe the way THEY choose good, bad or indifferent. It is their choice but that doesnt give anyone the right to run it down my throat. Those that do run it down my throat make me really angry and I choose not to deal with folks like that. Its safer for THEM that way. ;) Leesa PS: two things my dad told me never to discuss was religon and politics. See how well I listened! LOL |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 23rd, 2004, 12:25pm Leesa, It is hard to find a church you are comfortable with. After I left my last church, my wife and I really struggled finding one. Then one magically appeard that has been a real blessing. I do not preach fire and brimstone all the time. Of course there is a time and a place, but I focus more on the blessings of Christ, what he has done in my life and the life of my family, as well as what He can do for you. Heaven is a great blessing and a byproduct. Were there no heaven, I would still preach for Him. Churchianity never saved anyone, only turns people off. I try to deal with people in a straightforward way because I know how much He has dealt with me that way. I wish more Christians would live lives that show Christ rather than just speaking words that tell Christ. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 23rd, 2004, 12:40pm on 06/23/04 at 12:25:23, RevDeFord wrote:
If more people lived the spirit of their faith, what an amazing world this could be. Thank you, by the way, for your reply via Email. -Frank |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by BobG on Jun 23rd, 2004, 3:06pm "I am now an atheist. I haven't always been though. I was raised an agnostic." Dr. John Becker |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 23rd, 2004, 3:40pm One thing that I do find particularly disturbing, is that a vast majority of Christians foster an "Us vs. Them" mentality. As many Christians as there are that live the spirit of their religion, there are many more who follow it in a cultish fashion, deeming anything Christian as good and anything not overtly Christian as evil. Mr. X in the congregation may be a real bastard, but because he's a Christian, he's okay. Mr. Y may not be a Christian, but leads an ethical and kind existance, but he's automatically "of the Devil, lost, and evil." That makes no sense to me. It seems to me that so many Christians are so wrapped up in, "just passing through," and being "in this world but not of it," that they neglect things like "love your neighbor as yourself," (then again, there are so many who don't love themselves, so they treat their neighbors like crap!), and are more concerned with being self-righteous than they are with being kind. They conveniently forget that Jesus walked among prostitutes, the poor, lepers, tax collectors, and fishermen. The outcast of society. Those that were termed "evil" by the Scribes and Pharisees of the day. It seems that modern Christians have more in common with the Scribes and Pharisees than they do with Jesus. When, as Christianity teaches, Jesus returns to Earth, which religion do you think he will sanction? What church do you think he'll attend? To whom will he say, "Well done, my good and faithful servant."? (By the way, did anyone ever stop to consider that if/when Jesus returns, the LAST thing he's going to want to see is a cross or a crucifix???) [smiley=huh.gif] Okay, okay: I'm being somewhat silly and rhetorical, here. ;) "And the greatest commandment is this: That ye love one another as thyself." Mother Teresa had it right: "If in coming face to face with God we accept Him in our lives, then we are converting. We become a better Hindu, a better Muslim, a better Catholic, a better whatever we are. ... What God is in your mind you must accept" |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Linda_Howell on Jun 23rd, 2004, 3:50pm WOW....Can I get in here with a few random thoughts? I, like Ree was born and raised Catholic. I went to the "our lady of guilt and responsibility church" I, too was made to feel I was going straight to hell be cause I went to another religions church once when I was a kid. I was told it was a mortal sin because I accidentally ate some pork and beans w/o taking out the pork on a Friday. Then I grew up. I have come to realize that mans rules and Gods rules are not the same. Ramon, I liked Kevins response to your friend who made you feel uncomfortable enough to post this and ask the question. "Her judge robes are a little too tight." and I don't blame Tina one bit for bei ng angry. Charlie, that was probably the longest post you've ever made as well as one of the best. God is too big to fit inside ONE religion. o.k. Going to confession now. Some habits die hard. Linda |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 23rd, 2004, 3:54pm Jeep, I can't dispute the majority of what you are saying. The church is full of the world and wrong motives and hypocrits and the like. When I preach from the pulpit on Sunday, there is no Christian who is not uncomfortable, because my messages are directed at them. The non-Christian gets to hear the Christians take the toe stomping because as a pastor, I feel it is my job to prune the tree, care for the flock. And that means dealing with these wrong motives and attitudes and bringing it back to one of love. I thank God my church is so loving. As far as Mother Theresa goes, I am glad you brought her up. She is living proof of why we can never be good enough. 6 months before her passing, she was in an interview with a reporter, I believe from the BBC, who asked if she is going to heaven when she dies. Her answer was, "I hope I have been good enough." 1 John 5:13 says 13. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. We can know we are saved, through faith in Christ. Thanks again for the free discussion without insults. I have not seen discussions of this nature take place so smoothly. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:01pm I agree, Rev. It's been a wonderful and relaxing discussion. You sound like a wonderful pastor and your congregation is fortunate to have you. It is my personal belief and conviction that there are as many paths home to God as there are, individuals on the Earth, and not a single of them has a monopoly on Truth. For now, "we see through a glass, but darkly." My best to you. Thank you for your kindness and thought-provoking posts. -Frank |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Margi on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:02pm on 06/23/04 at 15:40:29, Jeepgun wrote:
aw, darn, Jeep - and you were doing so well too. I think you may have your math backwards. There are a lot more quiet Christians out here than you might think. (Take me, for example. I've stayed outta this for 5 whole pages now. I hope all y'all are proud of me! :D) Fanatics of ANY religion are a pain in the butt. But please don't paint the majority of Christians to be the type that will nail ya on a streetcorner, hat in hand and try to save you while they demand you repent for your sins. To me, that's the Jerry Springerdom of Christianity. ::) And, I have to agree with Linda. Way to go Charlie!! Didn't know ya had it in ya!! :) p.s. I just gotta say it - this has been the most civil discussion about a passionate subject I've seen here in a long while. Great job, folks!! |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:24pm Sorry, Margi. Just relating my own experience, though. I've been blessed to meet a lot of really fine people, and quite a lot of them were Christians. Growing up in a fundamentalist Baptist church, and now living in Tennessee (Buckle of the Bible Belt) though, I mostly keep my head down and my mouth shut. There are a lot of truly scary fundamentalists down here... And you're right: Fundamentalists of any stripe are a real pain in the backside! >:( |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:27pm I am a Fundamentalist. :-[ |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:28pm [quote author=RevDeFord link=board=general;num=1087780173;start=100#106 date=06/23/04 at 16:27:13]I am a Fundamentalist. :-[/quote] I guess I should qualify that: You aren't one of the rabid, in-your-face fundamentalists! :) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Rock_Lobster on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:38pm on 06/23/04 at 16:28:31, Jeepgun wrote:
Zackly! The Rev is not a zealot. He can discuss his faith with conviction, minus cramming it down our throats. A rare quality, that is Rev. [smiley=thumb.gif] |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Margi on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:40pm Jeep, I didn't say Fundamentalist. I said fanatic. Big difference. I guess you could classify my grass roots non-denominational Christianity as fundamental too - but all that means is living God's word without all man-made rule changing that has happened over time. Sorry, not trying to pick on you Jeep - just trying to point out that it's the fanatics that get more press (and therefore seem larger in number). Kind of like the Mouse that Roared story. :) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:42pm You're right, Margi. There is a big difference between one who adheres to the fundamentals of their faith and one who is a fanatic or a zealot. I stand corrected. Thank you. :) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by jonny on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:50pm http://www.mikesfreegifs.com/main3/halloween/Skull-26.gif |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Luke63 on Jun 23rd, 2004, 4:57pm on 06/23/04 at 16:50:52, jonny wrote:
I steer away from Religion....It tends to get alot of us in trouble in one way or another. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Dads angel on Jun 23rd, 2004, 5:05pm This is exactly what I have to deal with here in BIBLE BELT EASTER NORTH CAROLINA! Boy, it's aggrivating! I am consantly told I am going to hell! And here they don't beat around the bush. I think that you have every right to be offended! Who's to say the most humanly good person will go to hell if he/she does not take Jesus as thier savior? NO ONE! This is my biggest problem with the Catholic/Christian religion. Not to offend any believer, but to me... Jesus seems a bit conceited. Those are just my views. -STEPHANIE- God doesn't want us to have beliefs. Just ideas. -Dogma |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by RevDeFord on Jun 23rd, 2004, 5:10pm :-/ |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Rock_Lobster on Jun 23rd, 2004, 5:13pm I grew up in the same environment Steph. I am not an atheist, but this loosely covers my train-of-thought toward the 'Accept the Savior or Burn' crowd... "I contend that we are both athiests. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F. Roberts |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Opus on Jun 23rd, 2004, 5:52pm This is my favorate song about churches, I have been to a few churches that could use some squirrel action. Song: Mississippi Squirrel Revival Artist: Ray Stevens Album: Collection Lyrics: Well when I was kid I'd take a trip every summer,This is my favorite song about churches, I have been to a few churches that could use some squirrel action. down to Mississippi. To visit my granny in her ante bellum world.I'd run barefooted all day long, climbing trees free as a song. One day I happened catch myself a squirrel. I stuffed him down in an old shoebox, punched a couple holes in the top and when Sunday came, I snuck him into church. I was sittin way back in the very last pew showin him to my good buddy Hugh, when that squirrel got loose and went totally berserk! Well what happened next is hard to tell. Some thought it was heaven others thought it was hell. But the fact that something was among us was plain to see. As the choir sang I Surrender All the squirrel ran up Harv Newlan's coveralls harv leaped to his feet and said, "Somethin's got a hold on me!" YEOW The day the squirrel went berserk. In the First Self-Righteous Church Of that sleepy little town of Pascagoula. It was a fight for survival, that broke out in revival. They were jumpin pews and shouting Halelujah! Well Harv hit the isles dancin and screamin some thought he had religion others thought he had a demon Harv thought he had a weed eater loose in his fruit of the looms. He fell to his knees to plead and beg, and that squirrel ran out of his britches leg, unobserved to the other side of the room. All the way down to the Amen pew where sat Sister Bertha better than you Who had been watching all the commotion with sadistic glee. You should've seen the look in her eyes when that squirrel jumped her garters and crossed her thighs. she jumped to her feet and said, "Lord have mercy on me!" As the squirrel made laps inside her dress, she began to cry and then to confess to sins that would make a sailor blush with shame. She told of gossip and church disention, but the thing that got the most attention is when she talked about her love life then she started naming names! The day the squirrel went berserk. In the First Self-Righteous Church Of that sleepy little town of Pascagoula. It was a fight for survival, that broke out in revival. They were jumpin pews and shouting Halelujah! Well seven deacons and the pastor got saved and 25,000 dollars got raised. And 50 volunteered for missions in the Congo on the spot. and even without and invitaion there were at least 500 rededications. And we ALL got rebaptised whether we needed it or not. Well you've heard the Bible stories I guess of how he parted the waters for Moses to pass. All th miracles God has brought to this l' world. But the one I'll remember to my dyin day is how he put that church back on the narrow way with a half crazed Mississippi Squirrel The day the squirrel went berserk. In the First Self-Righteous Church Of that sleepy little town of Pascagoula. It was a fight for survival, that broke out in revival. They were jumpin pews and shouting Halelujah! |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by don on Jun 23rd, 2004, 10:20pm Quote:
I'm jumping in late and haven't read all of this thread but something struck me after reading the above quote. Substitute the God Allah for the God Jesus in the above philosophy and what do you have? Fundamentalist Islam. Fucking scary stuff. |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Charlie on Jun 24th, 2004, 1:14am We've been having a "careful" discussion. Good for us. It's what our corner of the planet is supposed to foster. For all the bitching we hear and read about this stuff, we have done an amazing job. We have our share of fanatics in this country but our hell-fires don't go around blowing up buildings. They just make a lot of noise. Good for us. I was raised by an atheist father and a once-a-month Lutheran mother. Mom used to say stuff like: Wouldn't it be great if it's true?" Can't argue with that much. It's about where I've been. Had one neighbor lady that spent a lot of time trying to get me to go to Sunday School. I didn't want to blow a Sunday of course and Mom and Dad left it to me. That may have been a mistake. I could have used the social contact if nothing else and I don't think that Lutheran SS back then was over the top. Lutherans here are a mostly a bunch of sad sacks, not wackos. The stories are wonderful if a bit bizarre. I was 10 in 1956 and we had voluntary bible classes in public school in one classroom once a week. I went. I liked it. It concentrated on stuff that a kid would like. It didn't do me any harm. Neither did Pledge of Allegiance stuff, Ten Commandments, or Nativity Scenes. They still don't. I mean for God's sake, knock off suing people at Christmas. You don't have to say "Under God" anyway or at least mean it. It's such a waste of time, energy and money to litigate this stuff. Use time and money to feed the poor, teach literacy, or something useful. For people who don't like religious stuff, it's like flag desecration, all it does is bring it to the top. It's probably counter-productive for atheists. The thing is that after 2,000 years or so, we can deal with this thing here without tearing one another apart. This works for everybody. I sure don't know bible history though..... Charlie |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Leesa on Jun 24th, 2004, 8:45pm Rev, thanks for your kind words. "my" church is out there I just have to find it. I aint givin up. Im gonna keep on lookin!!! Thanks again!! ;;D Leesa :D |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by Jeepgun on Jun 24th, 2004, 9:02pm If we are each Soul, sparks of God, and loved unconditionally, and if God is omniscient and omnipresent, then God knows where His lovers are and the very ground you stand on is holy ground. The whole WORLD is a cathedral!! :) |
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Title: Re: Perplexed...religon (non-CH) Post by don on Jun 24th, 2004, 9:48pm Quote:
Truer words could not be spoken and the lessons and truths you discover in that search are the real value of the search. |
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