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Title: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 2:28am Today is the day we remember the bravest generation. Today 60 years ago Operation Overlord, the D-Day Landings started. Today 60 years ago the Liberation of Europe started. This will probably be the last time many of the men and women can revisit the site of their bravery as the ones that are left are now very old. For those of you who know nothing about it, take a moment out to think that the world would be a very different place if the people of Britain, France, America and the Commonwealth had not died in their millions to stop the German invasion forces. The opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan give a vague clue of how terrible this was. Many men never made it out of the water, and many more were mown down on the beaches as they came ashore. Then followed an attritional campaign over the following days where many thousands more were killed. We in Europe owe our freedom to these men and women. 500,000 of them died in this phase of the war alone. 61 million people lost their lives in total, 235,000 of them were USA citizens. LEST WE FORGET Wendy |
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Title: Re: Today 60 years ago Post by jonny on Jun 6th, 2004, 2:45am You should really take France out of there, they were shooting at us as we stormed the beach......Fucking frogs!!!! ......................................jonny |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 11:22am I've never heard that Jonny, how did they manage to do that [smiley=huh.gif] the Germans held the whole Normandy coastline didn't they? Was it aircraft fire? If so, it may be one of the most desperately sad aspects of any conflict, the 'friendly fire' deaths (can't stand that phrase >:() Wendy |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Svenn on Jun 6th, 2004, 11:35am Sorry Jonny but you`re way out of line on this one. France was occupied as the rest of Europa.They was among the allied forces on D-Day. Svenn |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 12:00pm Svenn Sorry but it looks like Jonny may be right. I was interested so I did a search and found quite a lot about what they call "amicide" in Normandy. Most of it was after the landings during the advance across France BUT, to be fair to the French (not sure why as I'm not a fan!), the worst two incidences I can find were one where US bombers bombed their own men as the smoke from the first bombs obscured the subsequent bombers vision, and in addition, the most horrific hushed up incident in the UK where hundreds of GI's were killed in a D-Day training exercise where some numbnuts issued live ammunition instead of dummies. This one (link below) really shocked me!! I think people in the USA would be entitled to be very angry with the Brits for this horror. http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0%2C12271%2C1217951%2C00.html Wendy |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Cerberus on Jun 6th, 2004, 12:43pm Friendly fire happens in EVERY war...less often now with the introduction of "smart" technology and GPS. However behind the lines things now happen in "realtime" and that wasnt the case back then. No one wants to hear bloody stories of "friendly fire" its bad for morale and REALLY bad for politics. Wargames on the british isles anywhere near the time of D-day was a bad idea...it was shady planning on the U.S.'s part and even more questionable on the part of the British armies...GB was already worried of bombings by Germany and probably ordered all units on full alert at all times it doesnt surprise me a bit....do I think its acceptable..NO but it is understandable. Another WW2 myth is the flag raising at Iwo-Jima....how many people know that it happened prior to most of the combat on that Island? Yup, its true....the statue of the soldiers raising that flag is a scene that happend prior to what is considdered one of the bloodiest conflicts of the war. Japanese troops were deeply intrenched on that Island and were waiting until most of the invading U.S. forces had landed before firing upon them...the first wave landed there almost completely unchallenged. I got more interesting stuff ifn ya wanna know...... As for D-Day Vets .....Thank you for your service and proper respect given. Ramon |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by mynm156 on Jun 6th, 2004, 12:55pm THANK YOU TO ALL WHO HAVE SERVED!!! TO ALL THAT GAVE THE ULTIMATE YOU ARE REMEMBERED!! mynm156 |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Svenn on Jun 6th, 2004, 1:02pm Friendly fire happens in EVERY war.So it did in ww2 also. We had some companies on the allied side.Norwegian accidently killed Norwegians on the same side.Dont think its possibly to dont let that happens in a master battle as the D-Day. What i was questioning is that Jonny did generalize all french as bad and thats NOT right. The same on the german side.Not all was naziz.There was good men among them to.Just following orders. As everybody else did For the record Norway was also occupied and had our share of the hell called war on our own land Guess what im trying to say is that its time to forgive but NOT forget . What is really irritating is the way we all treat our WW2 vets. But thats another story Svenn |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 1:23pm I think you are right Svenn. One funny anecdote. There is a great deal of TV coverage of the 60 year remembrance here in the UK. This morning some reporters were interviewing people who had gone to Arromanche for the memorial services. One was a German man who was complaining that there were flags for every country all over the town, but no German flags on any of the houses Duhhhh [smiley=huh.gif] [smiley=huh.gif] [smiley=huh.gif] W P.S. Ramon, I'm not really clued up about military history but always interested in the human side of the conflicts and what we can learn from them. Thanks for the post |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 1:31pm Svenn Didn't mean to ignore Norway' contribution. It is quite well known here that Norway was used as a base for bombing raids on Germany, and we are very familiar with the "Heroes of Telemark" story where crack Norwegian troops destroyed Hitler's potential nuclear capability. Sadly we are only familiar with it because Hollywood made a film about it, but I'm glad they did or no-one would know. So respect to the Norwegians as well W |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by fubar on Jun 6th, 2004, 1:31pm Even our latest 'hero' was killed by friendly fire. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/29/tillman.report/ I say 'hero' only because I think it's wrong to single out this man as special when we have over 800 others who have given their life to this war already. Friendly fire happens in every conflict. It's an ugly truth of war. However, I'm not convinced that all the French 'friendly fire' incidents were accidents. Apparantly there's a lot of evidence to the contrary. Hell, some of our own recent (Gulf war) 'friendly fire' incidents have been proven to be deliberate (in subsequent courts marshall) -Fu |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 1:42pm Fair point Fu. Terrible things happen and good people do terrible things in terrible times. Jonny's comment made me surf around and there are some very interesting things on the net about "amicide" as opposed to"homicide in a war setting" or even self inflicted wounds or suicides. One of the things I read about so-called 'Friendly Fire" was written by a Senior Officer at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and as he is obviously not a scholar it makes relatively easy and interesting reading for anyone interested. http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Shrader/shrader.asp W |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Svenn on Jun 6th, 2004, 1:45pm Pubgirl Its NOT about Norway`s contribution at ALL. 1 example "a bit out of line perhaps" "The My Lai massacre " back in 69/70. read with europeans eyes Does that massacre makes ALL Americans BAD . Hardly think so "You should really take France out of there, they were shooting at us as we stormed the beach......Fucking frogs!!!! " What im trying to say is: Dont judge a nation because of some bad mistakes happening during wartime. is that any clearer? Svenn |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 1:50pm I understood your point Svenn and agreed with it. That's why I cited other examples of other 'misdeeds' by other countries, including my own. No country at war is without blame. Just wanted to acknowlege Norway's contribution to WWII as well as not many people are aware of it. Wendy |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Simon on Jun 6th, 2004, 1:53pm It's important to see these things beng remembered, and not just as a solemn occasion. The town here has been making a great effort - shop windows decorated, landing craft on the beach, fly-pasts etc. They've also had tea dances in the hall - I was getting in the car last night only to be passed by an ARP warden and his lady friend (who had impressively straight stocking seams) :) Thanks to all who were there, and to all those who help us remember. S (In case ARP doesn't translate to US - firewatch etc) |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by kimh on Jun 6th, 2004, 2:38pm I've been listening to the stories of the men there that day. To listen to the many voices recall that day in history for us all to understand...........humbling. I know for myself........i'm so grateful. PS: For any who are interested, there is a book on my list: Franklin and Winston by John Meacham. |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 2:52pm Simon That sounds wonderful! If it was genuine though, the seams of her stockings would have been drawn in with eyeliner pencil and she would have painted her legs with gravy browning powder as she wouldn't have had any real stockings due to rationing. Incidentally, any woman who did have real stockings would have been accused of being a "GI Friend" as only GI's had stockings to give to women. Wendy |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by BruceD on Jun 6th, 2004, 3:12pm Thanks WTB. The sad truth is that the surviving WWII vets are a dwindling group. The remaining 4+ million surviving vets from WWII (out of the approximate 16+ million) are dying at a rate of about 1200 a day. Not that it's surprising that men in their 80's are passing on ... but that the history that they hold in their memories is dying with them. Heck, back during the the mid 1940's the life expectancy of those guys was only something like early 60's, so to have them living well into their 80's is great. I think that this is one of the reasons that Ambrose was so popular as an author on WWII. He took the time to research through the writings & oral history from the men who served in WWII. It really is amazing to hear about the hero who lives next door. Unfortunately the only time you seem to hear about it is when reading their obituary. :( Later, BruceD |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Simon on Jun 6th, 2004, 3:16pm Unfortunately the only time you seem to hear about it is when reading their obituary. All too true I'm afraid. My father died in 1970, but I would love to have heard his stories via my family. Unfortunately he never spoke to them of his time as a "guest" of the Japanese... S |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 6th, 2004, 7:41pm Sad and embarassed here too, only found out one of my Great Uncles was one of the Old Contemptibles after he died. He was captured too and put in a POW camp in Siberia. So many men never talked about what they went through, no counselling or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in those days, you were just shot for cowardice! Wendy |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by kimh on Jun 6th, 2004, 7:53pm Out of all that pain and all of the things we don't begin to appreciate came wonderful opportunities........I know i always flip the coin and i know it is not always a trip down poetry alley, but i think that is what allows us to step liter into the future. Those that went b4 paved a green path that we should all be skipping lite upon. *** |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by tgz23 on Jun 6th, 2004, 10:32pm What a great generation, they gave it all. I don't think we can truely appreaciate what they did. They are very modest about what they did. Thanks to all the WWII vets. |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Charlie on Jun 7th, 2004, 2:25am The Buffalo PBS station ran a 1964 90 minute documentary with Walter Cronkite and General Eisenhower touring Portsmouth, crossing the channel. and crawling all over the beaches and the German defenses. Tons of information, and especially about the 700 men lost in what he called the practice assaults and what a tragedy. True to form, he talked about all the mistakes during the invasion. What a refreshing thing to hear an adult. No one makes mistakes in 2004 it seems...... He said stuff like: "we really screwed up here...there, hit the wrong beach there, lost too many men here, overshot the zone there, and similar stuff and how lucky some of those mistakes turned out to be too. The mistakes he said kept the Germans guessing. He then went on to describe all the successes. I learned that it was Mountbatten's idea way back in 1942 to bring our own docks and build our own ports, which we did. A wonderful piece of television that hasn’t been broadcast in 30 plus years. . Sorry I'm running on but it's fresh in my mind and when I was a boy, everybody liked Ike. Bashing the French, especially on D-Day is childish. They lost men in the invasion too. It's time to end the idiotic shit like “Freedom Fries.” I can’t believe this came out of a U. S. Congressman’s office. Grow up. Charlie |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Svenn on Jun 7th, 2004, 5:20am Another question here.? Should we HATE the Sweds because their government did allow the naziz to use their railroad to transport soldiers to Norway? Sure it was a mistake from a few sweds.But HATE them now after almost 65 years. NO WAY Lets forgive but NOT forget Lets instead give those Vets that still is alive the HONOR they so much DESERVE. Svenn |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Turts on Jun 7th, 2004, 6:27am Back to the original point. LEST WE FORGET! God Bless all of us who benefited by their bravery. Turts Grandson of Private William Phegan. WWII |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Jeepgun on Jun 7th, 2004, 9:07am Saluting all WWII veterans. Great Britain, thank you. Norway, thank you. Canada, thank you. France's resistance fighters, thank you. And to all others: Thank you for your courage and sacrifices, and your dedication to the noble cause of freedom. "All gave some. Some gave all." |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by thomas on Jun 7th, 2004, 9:37am Impossible for me to forget. I salute all of my brethern, who have served and paid the ultimate price for freedom. |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Gator on Jun 7th, 2004, 3:53pm I also salute those who served during WWII. It was a geat generation of men and women. Even those who did not or could not go fight did their part at home. Sacrificed some of their own so the soldiers could have what they needed to win a war. The entire WWII generation deserves our respect, but none more so than those who fought and those who paid the ultimate sacrifice for freedom. Gator |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by thomas on Jun 7th, 2004, 5:45pm on 06/07/04 at 15:53:20, Gator wrote:
And oh, how much better off we would be, if we still held the same values as that great generation. |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Grandma_Sweet_Boy on Jun 7th, 2004, 6:25pm Amen! |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by ave on Jun 8th, 2004, 5:11am I don't forget. I was one year and a few months old on D-day, two years old when the war ended. I went and visited the invasion beaches several times and stood there in silent respect for the men who went on, up that beach or up that cliff, against monstrous odds, just so that I could grow up in freedom. I also went and visited the airfields in the east of England just last summer. The battle that was fought there by the English with nobody else in the world to help them was awesome. With hardly any advanced technology, in craft held together often enough with baling wire and lots of guts, day after day young men went out, to do anything in their power to stem the German tide. I stood in that old plotting room in the bunker, and paid my respects to these heroes and heroines who were prepared to give their life. If they had not, sure as sure there would not have been a D-Day at all. No, I won't forget. Don't you! |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 8th, 2004, 8:01am Great post Ave Two of those very planes (Spitfires) flew over our house on Sunday, they have a very distinctive engine sound and shape, so we knew what they were. My husband I and our 4 year old saluted them. There aren't many left still able to fly now, but you are right, great little planes with heroic pilots but massively outnumbered by German Messerschmidts and Hurricanes (think I have that right) they still won the battle for the skies over England. This was the main thing which stopped Hitler invading us as well as France. Wendy |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by thomas on Jun 8th, 2004, 8:49am We had the hurricanes, Wendy. I sure hope those spitfires were getting fired at by them. ;) The other popular German fighter plane was the Faukwolf(sp?). |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 8th, 2004, 11:59am Of course, Dopey me, Hurricane is hardly a German word is it! :-[ The hurricanes were the RAF bombers and the Spitfires the fighter planes. The Germans had Messchershmitts and Stukas! Wendy |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Gator on Jun 8th, 2004, 12:10pm on 06/08/04 at 11:59:10, pubgirl wrote:
The Stuka Dive Bombers were the scary ones. The Germans put ear splitting whistles in the wings that would strike serious fear and even pain into anyone around their targets. It's a good thing that the war ended prior to the Messerschmidt ME 206 becoming a mass produced plane. It's the one with the jet engine. The P-51 Mustangs were about the only thing we had even close to it and it was a prop job. Beautiful plane the P-51. Gator |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Charlie on Jun 8th, 2004, 2:50pm Poor Adolph and his rotund pal Hermann. After dealing with the continental airforces, no doubt they felt pretty pleased with themselves. ::) Tsk Tsk. Turns out Britain had a modern airforce. Oops. No fair! :o They bought Winston time to get Lord Halifax to STFU. Winston didn't think much the US and Canadian idea to park the Royal Navy in Canada after the invasion either. I love Winston...... 8) The RAF bomber was the Lancaster kids. You're right Gator, The ME 262....and a couple others would have been scary. The P-51 was the only fighter that could escort B-17s all the way to Berlin and back. They made it rather sticky for what was left of the Luftwaffe 8) Our two countries love a challenge. 8) The world was lucky. Charlie |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 8th, 2004, 7:38pm Hey Charlie We loved Winston too! Need someone like him again, crusty old git. Totally off the point but I loved the Derek and Clive sketch about him (Peter Cook and Dudley Moore pissed and rambling) This plane stuff is a bit beyond my knowledge but I read somewhere that the RAF had Hurricanes too. Probably the USA gave them to us. Anyway, who gives a damn, we beat Hitler and are not Germans as a result (though our Royal Family are ;;D) Wendy |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by jonny on Jun 8th, 2004, 7:59pm Fucking frogs :P |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 8th, 2004, 8:17pm Fucking Nazis ;;D |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by jonny on Jun 8th, 2004, 8:18pm ROTFF ;;D |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Charlie on Jun 8th, 2004, 11:00pm Hurricanes were all yours Wendy. What the hell were the huns thinking of? At the start of the war you had the largest navy in the world and I'm pretty sure we all think nothing was better than the Spitfire.......By the way, never has there been a cooler name for an aircraft. 8) Not familiar with the Winston send up. However: My favorite movie in the last 30 years has to be: "A Gathering Storm." It's a recent HBO flick with Albert Finney as Winston (Unbeliveable how good he is) and Maggie Smith. I imagine this thing is available elsewhere. It's great: no really nasty language, blood, or stupidity. It's made for adults. It's supposed to be loosely based on his diaries at the beginning of the war. The one thing I've learned is that the Nazis were pretty stupid. Anybody with an education was sent to a camp, slaughtered or sent here. God they were dumb. ::) Fuck Tojo Charlie |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Gator on Jun 9th, 2004, 3:26am on 06/08/04 at 14:50:56, Charlie wrote:
ME-262 - thanks Charlie. That would have sucked if it had ever gone into mass production and if they ever trained enough pilots to be good enough to fly it. The Germans had another jet or more accurately a rocket powered craft. The Komet ME163 used the rocket power (with only 8 minutes of fuel) to get above the allied bombers and then glide down firing at the bombers on the way down. It had a major problem with fuel leaks. The fuel was so volitile the thing would sometimes explode on take off and so caustic that some pilots were actually melted in the cockpit. Eck, what a way to go. The P-51 ruled, though. I still love the way it looks. That and the Vought F4U Corsair (the one flown in the tv series Baa Baa Black Sheep). I had models strung from my ceiling of the Corsair and the Zeros in dogfights. |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by FrankW on Jun 9th, 2004, 5:37am The Battle of Britain was something else, fighter pilots - 2365 English, 21 Australians, 7 Americans, 103 New Zealanders, 90 Canadians, 21 South Africans, 1 Jamaican, 9 Irish, 141 Poles, 86 Czech, 29 Belgian, 13 French, 2 Rhodesian and 1 Palestinian with 56 more pilots seconded from the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm. These guys fought in defence of Britain for several months with around 40% total casualties and around 20% killed. The workhorse RAF fighter for the battle was the Hurricane (twice as many used as Spitfires) - designed to be built in large numbers quickly by semiskilled workers. Thomas Sopwith (Hawker) pushed that one through - he saw the need while the politicians were still believing they could avoid it. The Spitfire was a better aeroplane but was difficult to build - it went on to have many improvements and served in many rolls and deserves the fame it has. The Hurricane went on to become the Hurribomber ground attack aeroplane after it was outclassed as a fighter. The later efforts by the RAF and the American Army Air Force make these numbers seem very small - but their desperate defence of Britain made the later efforts and D-Day possible. Hey - I am just a mine of useless information on Warbirds - and I love the sound of that Rolls Royce Merlin - be it in a Hurricane - a Spitfire - a Mustang - a Mosquito or a Lancaster. Frank |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by pubgirl on Jun 9th, 2004, 5:46am Tell you what folks, I'm biased being Brit and ever thankful we didn't get invaded or occupied (well not this century anyway ;;D) but this is fascinating! Wendy P.S. Charlie, the Derek and Clive skit was revolting actually, but VERY funny. It involved the two of them, pissed as farts as they usually were, rambling on insanely about the worst jobs they ever had. The two main ones were collecting Winston Churchill's morning snot in a bucket (lots because of the cigar smoking) and retrieving lobsters from Jayne Mansfield's arse. Don't ask me why [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: LEST WE FORGET, 60 years ago today Post by Jeepgun on Jun 9th, 2004, 7:08am In my thanks to the nations, I left out Australia and Russia. Thank you to both nations. The Russians are the ones to be thanked that Europe is not under German control. They lost SO many troops, fought so hard, and gave so much... |
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