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Title: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by 5-string on May 11th, 2004, 11:47pm I'm tired of pretending this mess is'nt scaring the hell out of me. I'm too young to remember the Veitnam conflict.(I was 6 when it ended) So my generation is not conditioned to being a part of war. I guess I'm blessed that our generation made it this far,but shit. This really sucks. And I'm not even over there. I'm safe,at home. I love this country. I proudly display an American flag everywhere I spend time(my car,my house,my work station and my banjo case.)because it means something to me. Will someone please put a positive spin on this? I just can't.. The character of a person is judged by how they treat there foes.... I've never been in battle,so I don't know what it's like under those circumstances. I do,however,salute ALL of the solders over there. Peace, ...Mark.. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Jimmy_B on May 12th, 2004, 6:50am Two words....Nick Burg... As it appears you're alluding to the treatment of a few Iraqi P.O.W.'s..."The character of a person is judged by how they treat there foes.... " Here is a guy, whose only crime was looking for some good pay & decided to go to Iraq. He was captured & beheaded...while that's bad enough, his captors also video-taped it & have put it on a Militant Islamic Web Site. Seeing that, it's easy to see who the "Good Guys" are. I will never know the reason the few American Soldiers degraded those P.O.W.'s the way they did. Being in a war...I can understand how you would get severely pissed at someone who's trying to kill you & demand revenge. Whether we like it or not...we're there...& we have to stand behind all of our soldiers. Remember, these are kids in their late teens who now see horrors that most people could not comprehend. Jimmy |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by helpless23 on May 12th, 2004, 9:07am Yeah, and what is sad is that he had to go to Iraq to find good pay? Gee, can we say "economy sucks"? I hate what's going on too. I hate the killings and the murders and the mistreatment of AMERICANS! I don't understand it, I never will. I must be in the same age group as 5-string here - because I feel like he does. And I have children. And it's so hard nowadays - you dont' even want to let them out of your house because you can't be so ignorant and say "It will never happen to me!". I've learned that the hard way with my son's diabetes. My 2 cents. Much Love, Toni |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Lizzie2 on May 12th, 2004, 9:15am Just an article on Nick. I know I said it on the other post, but Nick didn't go because he was looking to make money... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_us/american_beheaded_victim_2 I do agree that we need to support all of our troops there. I don't like how they are trying to blame Nick's death on the mistreatment of POW's. Well, maybe they are angry and want revenge, but they have always believed in senseless killing... It DOES just go to show that they are the enemy and how far they will go to prove that. I was upset by the photos that came out of the mistreatment of the POW's...but that is NOTHING compared to these senseless acts of Al-Quaida and their affiliated groups. One thing that I guess complicates all the issues is that Iraq was not directly responsible for 9/11. That makes this war confusing for a whole lot of us. But as evidenced by the death of Nick Berg, groups related to Al-Quaida do exist in Iraq, too. It is all such a big mess there!! I hope that we can bring our military home safely very soon... |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Gena on May 12th, 2004, 9:18am :'( |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 12th, 2004, 9:28am In a foreign field he lay Lonely soldier unkown grave On his dying words he prays Tell the world of Paschendale Relive all that he's been through Last communioun of his soul Rust your bullets with his tears Let me tell you 'bout his years Laying low in a blood filled trench Kill time 'til my very own death On my face I can feel the falling rain Never see my friends again In the smoke in the mud and lead Smell the fear and the feeling of dread Soon be time to go over the wall Rapid fire and the end of us all Whistles, shouts and more gun fire Lifeless bodies hang on barbed wire Battlefield nothing but a bloody tomb Be reunited with my dead friends soon Many soldiers eighteen years Drown in mud no more tears Surely a war no-one can win Killing time about to begin Home, far away From the war, a chance to live again Home, far away But the war, no chance to live again The bodies of ours and our foes The sea of death it overflows In no man's kand god only knows Into jaws of death we go Crucified as if on a cross Allied troops they mourn their loss German war propaganda machine Such before has never been seen Swear I heard the angels cry Pray to god no more may die So that people know the truth Tell the tale of Paschendale Cruelty has a human heart Everyman does play his part Terror of the men we kill The human heart is hungry still I stand my ground for the very last time Gun is ready as I stand in line Nervous wait for the whistle to blow Rush of blood and over we go Blood is falling like the rain It's crimson cloak unveils again The sound of guns can't hide their shame And so we die on Paschendale Dodging shrapnel and barbed wire Running straight at the cannon fire Running blind as I hold my breath Say a prayer symphony of death As we charge the enemy lines A burst of fire and we go down I choke a cry but no-one hears Fell the blood go down my throat Home, far away From the war, a chance to live again Home, far away But the war, no chance to live again See my spirit on the wind Across the lines beyond the hill Friend and foe will meet again Those who died at Paschendale Steve Harris and Adrian Smith- Iron Maiden. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 12th, 2004, 9:46am Truly tragic. A decent person that wanted to build a business helping others, and tended to help others alot more than he profited. Quote:
I don't think the press has put blame on the POW issue. They did report the statements of the killers who said they did it in revenge, but that is just news - people will take the statements of the killers for what their worth - nothing. And your right, Al Qaeda was killing innocent people long before the prisoner torture. Daniel Perl in Pakistan was another example. Quote:
The Ansar al-Islam group (Al Qaeda affiliate) has been active in Northern Iraq for the past few years - Saddam lost control of Northern Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War. Ansar used the chaos of the past year to move into the rest of Iraq. Now Iraq is a magnet for groups that want to wage violent jihad. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by JDH on May 12th, 2004, 9:55am on 05/12/04 at 09:15:12, Lizzie2 wrote:
You're right Lizzie, THAT confuses me big time. WTF are we doing with 140,000 troops in Iraq when it was Al Quaida who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks? Why isn't there more effort being put into finding Osama bin Laden? Seems to me he's the guy who needs to be taken out. Jim |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by KingOfPain on May 12th, 2004, 11:16am I would invite all the bleeding heart Iraqi/Islamic/anti-war supporters to explain their views to THESE families. _____________________________________________ Michael Berg, left, collapses to the ground in front of the family house in West Chester, Pa., and is comforted by his son, David, after learning from a reporter Tuesday of the existence of a video showing the beheading of his other son, Nick. http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040512/040512_nickberg_hmed_7a.h2.jpg The decapitation (of Nick Berg) recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven suspects — including those who allegedly slit his throat — remain at large. Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic. _____________________________________________ Rest In Peace Nick Berg. :'( |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Edski_1 on May 12th, 2004, 11:20am Regarding the prisoner aabuse: say what you will about the "enemy" over there, the abuse is a horrible PR move and gives ammunition to critics. For all those who say "Saddam was worse" or "look what they did to those contracters at the end of March" I would ask: Is this what we want our nation's policy to be? I would also ask if people seriously believe the prison abuse was the work of few bad apples. The Administration has openly stated that they don;t feel compelled to abide by the Geneva Conventions anymore. Whatever the case I feel there has been a complete breakdown in the Military Chain of Command. If there were actions by a few going un-noticed there was a lack of discipline and control. If it was sanctioned from above, even tacitly, there was a grave error in command decisions. Either way it's a poor reflection on the Leadership. Regarding Iraq's connections to Al-Queda and 9/11: There was no connection between Iraq and 9/11. And the Al-Queda operative in Iraq before Saddam was deposed were NOT his allies. The country is teeming with terrorists now because of the instability there now. It's a good place to target American servicement and civilians precisely due to the lack of control there. So much of the problems in Iraq that are presently happening were predicted by people of both conservative and liberal nature BEFORE we went in...supporters and detractors. The fact that things are going so badly now speaks volumes to me of the arrogance of our present Administration, who would not HEAR OF IT, when questions were raised before commiting tothis war. The distancing from our "allies", especially in Europe add to this perception of arrogance, as does Dick Cheny's recent remarks about Don Rumsfeld being "the best Defense Secretary in the country's hsitory" and people should just "get off his case". Seems to me that this Administration has no one willing to take the heat for this situation and are continually pointing fingers when things go wrong. Truman's contention of "the buck stops here" is definitely NOT a concept this adminsitration embraces. The whole set of reasons for going into Iraw in the first place was based on mis-interpreted or perhaps even falsified "intelligence". UN Weapos inspections were stopped supposedly becasue Saddam wasn't cooperating, but it looks like they were stopped becasue the longer they went on, the less the WMD excuse was going to fly. And where's Osama? Is there even a real effort to get that bastard, or are the ties between Bush's oil business interests and the Bin Laden's in Saudi Arabia getting in the way? This whole episode in our history smelled from the beginning, and smells worse now. And don't expect it to get any better there. The terrorists are just starting to get cranked up. Without doubling the number of troops on the ground in Iraq that place will NEVER be secured. But that's just another one of the contentions the Bush Administration decided to ignore before going in. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by ckelly181 on May 12th, 2004, 11:28am A friend of Nick Berg's said this on a morning show today: The Iraqi's don't know it, but they killed a best friend when they murdered Nick Berg. :( |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Leesa on May 12th, 2004, 12:03pm first the tears come :'( then the anger sets in >:( Yes Im scared too. Leesa |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Jimmy_B on May 12th, 2004, 12:18pm "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell." - General William Tecumseh Sherman Jimmy |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 12th, 2004, 12:21pm President Bush said earlier this week that "Donald Rumsfeld is, "courageously leading our nation,'' He goes on to say that, "You are doing a superb job, and that Americans owe Donald Rumsfeld a debt of gratitude for his execution of the war in Iraq, despite a growing political crisis over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers. Are you fucking serious?!?! WASHINGTON: Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean called on Friday for Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign, citing a “pattern of deception” in his statements on Iraq and a failure to plan for the postwar period. Dean is the second Democratic candidate for the 2004 presidential nomination to seek Rumsfeld’s resignation as critics of the Bush administration turn up the heat on the Pentagon amid continued violence in Iraq. Massachusetts Sen John Kerry called on Thursday for Rumsfeld to step down, saying he proceeded in Iraq “in an arrogant, inappropriate way that has frankly put America at jeopardy.” Dean, the former governor of Vermont, also said Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz should resign and announced he was starting a national petition drive on the Internet to demonstrate support for their resignations. Republican National Committee spokeswoman Christine Iverson said Dean and Kerry were “playing a game of political copy cat. If John Kerry calls for one administration official to resign, Howard Dean has to call for two.” Dean accused the Bush administration of “a long line of problematic statements” on Iraq, from his disputed State of the Union message about Iraq’s attempts to acquire uranium for a nuclear weapon to claims of ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda. “This pattern of deception is but one major reason that this administration deserves to be fired by the American people,” said Dean, who also cited the “abject failure” to plan for a postwar Iraq. “There is no need to wait until the next election to hold the major architects of this disaster responsible for their gross incompetence,” he said. “The time has come for the president to fire them.” —Reuters This is out of hand completely. If you want to see a cool website go to www.moveon.org -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 12th, 2004, 12:22pm on 05/12/04 at 12:18:46, Jimmy_B wrote:
That guy was a real a$$hole >:( |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by KingOfPain on May 12th, 2004, 12:23pm 'Coffins after coffins' One of the militants reads a lengthy denunciation of the United States and the abuse by U.S. troops of Iraqis detained in a prison near Baghdad. "How can a free Muslim sleep well as he sees Islam slaughtered and its dignity bleeding, and the pictures of shame and the news of the devilish scorn of the people of Islam - men and women - in the prison of Abu Ghraib?" the speaker demands in Arabic. "We tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way." Following the statement, the men pull Berg down and slash at his neck with a large knife as he screams. Shouting "God is greatest!" the men saw off his head. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Bob P on May 12th, 2004, 12:23pm You did what the weaker would never dare to do, you walked where those so critical would never be brave enough to walk, you saw things that those of lesser character could never bear to see, you felt the putridness of fear in the bowels of your soul, and yet you walked on to a mission you did not choose. May your soul find peace in death, among the highest angels of Heaven. Quote:
Rumsfeld is running a war while other are playing politics. Kick ass and don't bother to take names America! |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 12th, 2004, 12:30pm on 05/12/04 at 12:23:39, Bob P wrote:
Wow, Bob, I never knew you had that in you. Very nice. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Bob P on May 12th, 2004, 12:34pm I'm not the author. It is a Nam poem that is on a web page on my site which is dedicated to my best friend, killed in Nam. http://pahlow.net/nam/saga_continues.htm |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by KingOfPain on May 12th, 2004, 12:36pm Bob P, Thank you for the poem & the link. http://pahlow.net/nam/images/Thewall2.jpg ("Borrowed" from http://pahlow.net/nam/saga_continues.htm Thank you). |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Gator on May 12th, 2004, 12:38pm Mark, you don't need to pretend this doesn't scare the hell out of you. It scares the hell out of anyone with half a brain and it's hard to put a positive spin on something as ugly as war. It was a serious lack of judgement that allowed those Iraqi prisoners to be mistreated as they were, but an investigation had already been started and we were already in the process of correcting the problem when the story and pictures were leaked to the press. Whoever leaked the story is just as responsible for the death of this young man as the people who killed him. This incident also goes to show who it is we are fighting. Several iraqi men were mistreated and embarassed, NOT killed and the terrorist response is decapitation of an innocent man. Not even a soldier whose business is war, but a civilian whose main reason for being there was to HELP rebuild that country. These are the kind of people behind acts such as the first bombing of the World Trade Center, which went largely unresponded to (thanks Bill), so they felt confident enough to try again on 9/11 and the bombings in Spain and other attacks around the world whether successful or not. We took up the fight against terrorism worldwide and said who is with us and everyone raised their hands. It was great as long as we didn't actually do anything about it. Everyone was on the bandwagon until the first battle. Now those gungho allies have all but backed out of it totally. Hell, Spain even let the terrorists choose who was going to run their country, because they are so afraid. The question is - if Radical Islamic Terrorism scares them so much, why won't they help fight against it? Radical Islamic Terrorism is a problem facing the entire world, not just America, but see who is left in the fight and who is threatening to pull out and lay down and cower to these extremists. These terror groups are trained in and financed by many, if not most of the Middle Eastern countries. Pakistan and Iraq are only two of many. We went into Pakistan and gave it back to the people. We went into Iraq and are in the process of giving it back to the people. We are over there to liberate a people from a ruthless dictator and his maniacal sons who for the sheer fun of it killed hunderds of thousands - maybe millions - of it's own people. We find more and more mass graves where their bodies have been dumped like so much trash. The dictator is captured, the sons are dead and we are now trying to rebuild the country. Radical Islamic terrorists are trying to keep the people from being free for the first time in their lives. Free thinking, self-ruling people are a danger to them. So they are fighting against us to keep these people in the bondage and fear that makes them easy to control. What scares me most, is that there seems to be a ground swell of anti-Americanism rising in THIS country. This "Blame America First" mentality. Even Americans are starting to blame America for everything that goes wrong in any part of this world. Famines, floods, power outages, epidemics, lack of medicines, lack of technology, global warming - all our fault somehow. This generation's children have grown up taking for granted their freedoms and liberties. They have no idea that freedom isn't free. No idea that it was paid for by the blood of their fathers and grandfathers and no idea that if they want to keep it, by their own sacrifice as well. We need to go back to teaching pride in our country to our children. A country that gives millions of tons of food, clothing, equipment and medical supplies to poorer nations around the world. A country that when one of our allies is in trouble, comes to their rescue immediately. A country that rescued Europe twice in one century from the hands of zealots and madmen. A country that ended the cold war. And unfortunately, now a country whose fair weather friends forget everything we have ever done for them when we ask for a little help. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by BstnEagles on May 12th, 2004, 12:40pm God Bless America and our troops. Its a terrible war that has some positive compnents (goodbye Saddam). However, I think that Bush and Rumsfield need to go. I feel as though the web of deception gets thicker each day. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 12th, 2004, 12:42pm Ditto Gator, Ditto Gator. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by KingOfPain on May 12th, 2004, 12:43pm Thank you Gator. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Cerberus on May 12th, 2004, 12:58pm Quote:
Let me clear this up a bit...(Sorry folks but this chaps my ass) After 9-11 we declared a war on terrorism (we have all been told this 1000 times it should not be unclear) If we are to establish a better intelligence community in the very closed societies that make up the midlle-east we have to be able to access any part of the region at will...Osama can do it (move across borders at will) we need to be able to do the same. Take a look at your world maps folks and tell me where Iraq is geographically....thats right, smack in the middle of the area, major shipping port, supply of enough refinable crude to fuel our military, and boredered by almost every nation we need access to for inteligence. Its plain good battle tactics. Saddam Hussein.........noone opposed war against Hitler having murdered 5 million Jews and ethnics. There was no opposition to our action in bosnia either...hrrrrmmmmm, I suppose the 5000 kurds, thousands of kuwaitis in the early 90's and the tourture and murder of thousands of his own Iraqi's isnt enough for us to take decisive action. (THIS IS THE PART THAT ASTOUNDS ME). The U.N. is a joke..."lets leave Saddam alone and impose more sanctions".....ARE YOU KIDDING!? what good are economic sanctions going to do against an already starving and economically suppresed people....alow me to clear this up too....NOTHING!!! In case anyone has doubts, Saddam Lived like a KING because he used Iraq's money and resources for his own benefit instead of using it for his country. That is why he was rich and in power and the people starved. It is also the reason why the Iraqi's couldn't overthrow him. THEY HAD NOTHING! Now, if any of this is still unclear.....then you watch too much TV. There NEVER should have been "imbedded reporters" the media does NOT belong on the battlefield. War is brutal and regardless of your intent, things happen that just shouldn't be released. The Media shows two versions of war, either what OUR government wants or thinks you should see and/or what the rest of the world percieves, ALL of it involving the humanitarian atrocities and horrors and LITTLE if any at all can be regarded as truth. Those of you who served in Vietnam, Korea, or any other war know this all too well. Ramon |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 12th, 2004, 1:12pm As a Jewish-American, I believe it was 9,000,000 Jews. I could be wrong. Whatever, it was horrific and unfathomable. Stop with all this "kill" attitude. Yes we need to protect our country. But what the hell are we doing invading other countries. My opinion, I don't believe it and I think it is ALL ABOUT OIL. OIL, OIL, MONEY, OIL, and more OIL. What message are we sending to our children? -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by stevegeebe on May 12th, 2004, 1:21pm bingo!...Gator. Steve G |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Jimmy_B on May 12th, 2004, 1:21pm on 05/12/04 at 12:22:36, thomas wrote:
Never met the man, personally...so he might just be. But for me...this quote is not far from the truth. Jimmy |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by JDH on May 12th, 2004, 1:24pm on 05/12/04 at 12:58:45, Cerberus wrote:
Gee thanks for the much needed history lesson for us dumbasses who watch too much tv ::) But is Sadaam the only person guilty of such atrocities? Not hardly. How about Kim Jong of North Korea? If we're going to police the world and get rid of all the bad guys then this guy has to go because him and his nukes are a much bigger threat to us than Sadaam ever was. Jim |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 12th, 2004, 1:28pm Quote:
Direct your anger at Col. Hackworth at Soldiers for the Truth (www.sftt.org). He connected the soldier's photos with 60 Minutes. The investigation Gator mentioned was in progress, and the soldiers and their families knew the fix was in - the report was to find that the abuse was isolated, the result of a very few bad apples. Offer up a few rank and file as sacrificial goats and keep things quiet. http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%2edb&command=viewone&id=12 |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 12th, 2004, 1:39pm on 05/12/04 at 13:21:31, Jimmy_B wrote:
The quote was accurate, but I grew up in the south, nuff said. (march to the sea?) |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Cerberus on May 12th, 2004, 1:58pm Gato is right, and my post is only a partial reflection of that line of thought. Oil?...doubful, Iraq (although it produces about 1/3 of the world total supply) the price of the same is still controlled by opec ( a conglomorate of middle-eastern producers) Saddam personally limited his flow to the former to increase his own wealth. Besides...Bush (albeit, the son of an american oil family) does NOT benefit by seizing imported crude. He stands to make more by limiting it so that the U.S. is forced to produce its own supply. Money....nope, America is simultaneously the richest and poorest nation in the world....Iraq doesn't have anything we need besides a logistical advantage for military operations. The Arabs have been advocationg a total muslim state, in other words they have been wanting to unify all the middle east into one huge nation of Muslim peoples...its the foundation that Saddam rose to power on and the leader he had killed to get into power, and the principle Osama bases his philosophy on. It will never happen...because none of the religous sects can agree on who shall govern. Even amongst muslims the thinking is different and that is the very thing that will keep the Middle-East divided. Hitler killed massive amounts of Jews be it 5 or 9 million is not the point, the point is it was a massive figure and no one opposed war against it. I am upset that it seems that if the death toll doesn't reach a certain height then the world seems to think its not worthwhile to stop it. Where do we set the bar? Another thing that no one seems to understand is that the situation in Iraq right now is the very same conditions that allowed Saddam to take power in the first place. We are there only to prevent that from happening again and to get as much inromation about the many terrorist operations in the region as possible. The "atrocities" inflicted on the "detainees" at this prison everyone is talking about. We are in a wartime situation, I am not going to pretend to know the circumstances under which these beatings or what have you were instigated and the rest of us shouldn't either, we weren't there and we don't know the entire story, only what we are shown...to make assumptions based on limited information is well stupid. WMDs....we telegraphed to the entire world what we were going to do with Iraq...Do you not think Saddam was watching? How many months was it between the time we started talking about it and the time we took action? Plenty of time to get most, if not all of his stuff stowed or shipped to other locations. Osama and Saddam were not friends...true, but Saddam also did nothing to hinder Osama from running training camps within Iraq, and even less to stop his entering and leaving. Making Iraq a great place to hide out since Hussein was at odds with the U.S. Intelligent thinking suggests that there are some things the government is, wont or can't tell us about what they are doing...it is even more intelligent to understand that we probably don't want/ need to know anyway. Public support is crucial to military operations (vietnam proved that). The Administration may very well have lied or told half-truths to get what they want. Its not the first time this has happened and it wont be the last. If you don't want to know the answer...don't ask. My take?.....Leave Iraq, pull all military support of the entire middle-east out and ignore em all when they get themselves into trouble because the cant agree or govern themselves. When they do ask for help tell em "no.. we tried before and you couldn't deal with it. Figure it out on your own." Ramon |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by KingOfPain on May 12th, 2004, 2:08pm Comments from Iraq about Nick Berg beheading: Some of the city's (Adhamiya) poorer residents said they supported the killing, arguing it was acceptable retribution for the abuses the U.S. military had committed in Iraq. "This is the price they have to pay for what they have done," said 33-year-old Omar Khateb, a labourer. "It was done according to Islamic Sharia, and the Americans should know that there is a price they will pay for the atrocities they commit." |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by JDH on May 12th, 2004, 2:12pm on 05/12/04 at 13:58:00, Cerberus wrote:
That works for me...fuck 'em! Jim |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 12th, 2004, 2:17pm Quote:
And there is no shortage of Americans who want to go in and bomb, killing innocents, based on some idea of revenge (as if that would somehow make things better.) Just saw a bumper sticker that said "Kill em all, let Allah sort em out" ... a new twist on the old license to kill indiscriminately that some Christians seem to think is religiously acceptable - "we're not really ending their existence, just referring them to God's judgement." |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by KingOfPain on May 12th, 2004, 2:24pm IMHO, If the people of this country would wake up to the fact that the terrorists (& others) consider this a HOLY WAR, we would all be better off. This is FAR from over. Actually, it has just begun. :( |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Bob P on May 12th, 2004, 2:35pm Quote:
All in good time. We need to finish up with the Middle East before we move on. Poor strategy to spread the forces too thinly. Quote:
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 12th, 2004, 2:36pm Quote:
Agree with you on that one - if you are talking about Al Qaeda. Iraq is a distraction from the real conflict against hate-filled fundamentalist Islam (Al Qaeda and kin). If we want to win against the extremists, I think it would be smart to keep the moderates on our side. Most countries in the Middle East have been struggling against groups like the Muslim Brotherhood for decades. Egypt's Sadat was assassinated for negotiating peace with Israel. Algeria went through a bloody civil war. Have you seen Pat Buchannans column today? Not usually a fan of his, but he hit the nail on the head with "A time for truth." Quote:
I don't know if your trying to be funny, Bob, but you made me laugh. :D The neoconservatives and their Project for a New American Century have failed. The idea that the US will become an unchallenged superpower that can remake the Middle East and world according to our desire is being slapped silly by reality on the ground there. More than a few people in our government are working on an exit strategy as we speak. Don't know if the politicians will actually decide on the exit, but our military is already spread a bit thin. Quote:
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by stuey on May 12th, 2004, 2:50pm My belief will always be that this was about OIL and Bush and cronies knew there were no weapons of mass destruction there - we're the ones with those. Saddam is gone, but he's certainly not the only (dictator, leader) who's lived large off the salt of other peoples sweat. My feeling this was started initially because of OIL and money (except of course I'm not wealthy enough to benefit from any of it) and it got out of hand and out of control. Who loves Bush, that's your business. He certainly hasn't sent any of his loved ones, nor any of congress' loved ones over there to fight his war, it's primarily the downtroddens children who are sent to die. I served my country for seven years and was just one of the lucky ones who was there during a time of relative peace. I joined for lack of other opportunity, as have most of those young people over there now. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 12th, 2004, 2:53pm Quote:
That it is and we aren't supposed to be in such wars. It was Madison, I believe, who made it very clear. No Gator: We don't need to go back to anything. Historically, things get better. We are healthier and contrary to what you see on cable news: Safer. Oh yes are. Even violent crime is way down. You won't hear that though.You might change the channel. Politicians love to use fear for their own peculiar reasons. Sadly, we're living up to the old adage of repeating history. Nothing is new but digital cameras and the ability to more quickly scare the shit out of people. Things are better; not worse. Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Bob P on May 12th, 2004, 3:15pm Quote:
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Lizzie2 on May 12th, 2004, 3:16pm on 05/12/04 at 14:36:46, floridian wrote:
Hence, Israel! I gotta say, all my Israeli family members now live in the US. Can't say I blame them at this point!! |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 12th, 2004, 4:31pm Quote:
The death toll is less than 1000, but the casualty list has more than 19,000 names - over 18,000 troops were medically evacuated from Iraq. Some of the evacs were for pregnancy, heart problems, etc, but most were for injuries. I don't think they were putting people with hangnails on planes to Germany. You could argue that 19 or 20 thousand casualties is not much according to the calculus of war. Sure, we could lose a lot more people. But will we?? If the US were invaded, the nation would tolerate heavy losses for repelling the invader. But for maintaining a presence in Iraq?? No. Loss of life isn't the only way to measure the cost or success - movement of US troops within Iraq has become more restricted over the past year. More areas of Iraq are ungovernable by the US than 6 months ago. Supply lines are over-extended and vulnerable. Tolerance for the occupation is dwindling. The Pentagon's 'hearts and minds' strategy is not going well at all. Then there's the already overstretched troops. Lots of guardsmen, finding themselves being extended indefinitely, performing jobs that they weren't trained for. Families and businesses at home falling apart. Even staying put at current troop levels may lead to a draft. Going after Syria or Iran would definitely require one. Then there's the financial cost of Iraq, which puts a damper on future adventures. The neocons thought the war and occupation would be easy, and it would cause a domino effect across the Middle East. Well, the invasion went well, but the occupation isn't. No sign of other countries (with the possible exception of Libya) deciding to change their tune. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by john123 on May 12th, 2004, 4:58pm War sux- little kids get killed- people get their heads sawed off- POW's have to blow each other- politicians have to miss rounds of golf to go to the war room. It is as bad as it gets, f*ck positive spin, that's the way we get suckered into wars to begin with. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 12th, 2004, 5:10pm To come close in Iraq, we'd need a lot more troops. That's just the way it is. There are lots of dead people and a lot children for whom what we call "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is one hell of a recruiting poster for wackos all over the world. Nobody likes the big kid on the block. War, contrary to what the current occupants in Washington would have us believe, is never simple. One shouldn't run a war only with organs south of the border. Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by pubgirl on May 12th, 2004, 7:37pm Cerberus Sorry I'm a bit late on this but you are rewriting history to make the Allies reasons for fighting in WWII look more humanitarian, which is what I believe will be how this war is being "sold" now. No-one joined WWII because of Jews being killed. The true extent of the genocide was only really known about at the liberation and afterwards. WWII was about another oppressive dictator who was invading and annexing other countries and the Allies were acting to prevent this. Hitler's crimes were way worse than Saddam's. We also need to remember that the time before we did that (WWI) we destroyed Germany's economy and "punished" it economically to such an extent after Germany had lost, that we probably helped Hitler's rise. Parallels here? Wendy |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Cerberus on May 12th, 2004, 8:24pm Quote:
only a partial truth, no we didn't know the true extent at the time, this doesn't mean it wasn't happening anti-jewish sentiment had been expressed much longer than the official start of the war in 1939, it was infact partially the initial foundation of pro germany naziism. Quote:
I only partially disagree with this statement. Most of the countries before the invasion of poland essentially lied down and let hitler occupy them unchallenged. They didn't raise a stink until they found out they were lied to and any/all treaties were ignored by the reich. The US had NO interest until pearl harbour and even then only had an interest in Japan. The US had no original intention of invading Europe until it was clear that we had no other choice since Germany was the catalyst for the war that brought Japan to our doorstep. Quote:
I have to disagree here.....who are we to determine who's form of genocide is worse than anothers? It is the worlds collective responsibility to prevent that from happening. We collectively failed and now the US is taking steps to correct it. What is most of the rest of the world doing...nothing. The only real difference between Saddam and Hitler is that Hitler did what he did (even though it went too far) in the interest of the people of Germany...Saddam did what he did solely for survival and entertainment. As sickening as it sounds, Hitler at least had principles. Saddam was a butcher for no reasons other than his personal benefit. Ramon |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 12th, 2004, 9:23pm Quote:
Really?? Was targeting the Jews, the Gypsies, the handicapped, gays, etc in the best interest of Germany?? Just went a little too far?? Maybe just disenfranchising and harrassing them would have been ok?? Saddam was a mass murderer, but compared to the Nazis, little of the crimes against humanity in Iraq were against people because they were part of a racial, ethnic or religious group. People, families, tribes, or villages that opposed the Baath party were crushed, but not because of their skin or creed. Quote:
Well, numbers might be one indication. A thousand people killed is probably worse than 10 people killed. 300,000 in Iraq is less than 6,000,000 in Nazi Germany. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Cerberus on May 12th, 2004, 10:00pm Quote:
Ummmm....you guys really need to think about what you are saying. Saddam killed less than "millions" so therefore it is less of a crime?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [smiley=JAW_DROP.gif] Quote:
No it wasn't, I didn't say it was....What I said was... Quote:
In Hitler's mind yes, it was in the best interest of germany. not my philosophy Hitler's, and even though it was wrong it his belief and much of Germany agreed at the time. NOTE: I also DIDN'T say " A Little too far" you did... I said TOO FAR. get it right. Quote:
Totally false....I refer you to the gassing of the Kurds in the north.....being kurdish is a particular racial and religous creed as well as a nationality, And Anyone not of the Baath party being eliminated....ummm yeah that is ethnic cleansing you just said it yourself.. if you arent of the Baath belief ( which is not only a "political" position)you were eliminated. One has to remember that even though these are all muslims....they are NOT all of the same sect...so yeah, it is genocide according to religous belief. Kinda like catholics and protestants, both are christian in origin and both are different ways of believing. Not to mention the fact that NO ONE even those of the Baath party were exempt from Saddam's wrath....he killed the leader of his own party to gain office!!!! I suppose now you are going to try and tell me that the ethnic cleansings that have/and are going on in the remote villages in Africa are less of a crime. Pol Pot killed fewer people is that less of a crime? Idi Amin? Milosevic? Or is it less of a crime because we arent seeing footage of it, or because they really arent a direct threat to the USA. That kind of thinking is unacceptable, you are either in or out. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by purpleydog on May 12th, 2004, 10:02pm You know, I don't see what all the fuss is about the way the Iraqi prisoners were treated. What about the way the POW's were treated in `nam? What about every other fucking war? And our fearless leader APOLOGIZES to the Iraqi's??? What about the early pow's in the beginning of the war that got killed and raped and sodomized? I don't remeber any fucking apologies to the USA from Iraq for THOSE little transgressions. The Iraqi's are a bunch of fucking pansies. They can dish it out but they sure can't take it. purpley |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by JDH on May 12th, 2004, 10:34pm on 05/12/04 at 22:02:39, purpleydog wrote:
'nuff said! [smiley=crackup.gif] Jim |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Gator on May 12th, 2004, 10:39pm on 05/12/04 at 14:53:10, Charlie wrote:
You just don't get it, do you? The liberal, pc, blame America first movement is growing in this country as more and more children are brought up with no sense of allegiance to or pride in their own nation. Those children are growing up to be adults with a frightening lack of respect for this country, it's symbols, it's system of government and for the people who died to make it what it is. It is wrong for Americans to recite the Pledge because it might offend someone? I don't think so! We saluted the flag and said the Pledge every morning when I was in school. We were brought up being taught that ours is a great nation, not a great satan. I served in this nation's military from 1980 until 1992. My mother had to sign a release so I could join at 17. I signed up not for a job or education, but to serve the country that had given me freedom and liberty. I already had a good paying job. I already had an academic scholarship to LSU. I wanted to serve my country. I felt it was my duty as a good citizen. Young and idealistic? Maybe. Nothing wrong with that. I missed VietNam by a few years. I was stationed in Japan during Desert Storm. Towards the end, I was a squad leader on a combat mobility team and we were packed up and ready to go. Cocked, locked and ready to rock as it were. When the stuff got deep, we were placed on 3 ring standby. Which means if you are not at work, you are at home ready to be called in. If the phone rings 4 times you faced punishment up to and including courts martial. We never got that call, but we were all pumped and ready to go. Today, I am beyond the age that I could be drafted, but I would still go willingly if I were to receive the call. I was as affected by 9/11 as was everyone in this country. Like everyone else, I was angered by the attacks and I wanted vengence to be wrought upon those who planned it and financed it and perpetrated it. With the attacks came a new sense of unity in this country as people crossed party lines to stand up as one nation and cried out for justice against a cowardly enemy. There was new found pride in America and in those who serve her in the police and fire departments and in the military past and present who defended her. That fire is dying now as things have gotten back to as close to normal as they will ever be again. People have so quickly forgotten the lessons learned. So quickly forgotten their own cries for vengence against this inhuman hoarde. So quickly forgotten the images of planes smashing into the World Trade Center and of people jumping from the burning buildings. We are not allowed to see the images of the attack anymore. "It's too painful to show" they say, but I say we need to see those images to remind us why we are on the path we are on. And as for watching the wrong channel, I really don't watch much tv. I got tired of their liberal left wing slant a long time ago. What I do see, I compare to other sources before putting too much stock in it. I do watch for the local news and weather. I read the news on the internet from many sources. I read both the American news and the international news as well. I listen to the radio and hear the news on NPR and listen to Boortz and Limbaugh and Hannity. I take all this stuff in and analyze it and develop my own opinions. In my opinion, there needs to be a lot more America First and a lot less scraping and bowing to a world full of cowards who grovel at the feet of the terrorists rather than stand up and fight to defend themselves. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 12th, 2004, 10:42pm It's true that the only two leaders in the west that got it that Hitler wasn't fooling around were Churchill and FDR. After 12/7/41 we actually did it right. We went after Der Fuhrer with more zeal. Hitler never did understand Britain. It was the first modern air force he encountered. It was a revelation for the little twerp. He got one hell of a bloody nose and went back to his astrologer. Invading England? I have strong doubts that he could have been successful; especially with material support from over here. It's also true that we didn't worry too much about what was going on in the camps. Not a comfortable thing to think about but it was also hard to comprehend. You cannot compare Saddam with Hitler. In the 30s and 40s, his actions were on a scale that dwarf this idiot. It's estimated that the war cost up to 50 million lives. That comparison isn't necessary but it helps. Hitler was unique. Saddam is one scores of useless despots throughout history. Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 12th, 2004, 11:06pm A few weeks ago, someone here recommended reading a book called, "Militant Islam Reaches America" by Daniel Pipes. I actually read a bit at the book store and ended up buying it. It is a good book. It discusses the difference between Fundamentalist Muslims (Islamists) and moderate Muslims. I think it is a good book in that he did the research in the past 30 years. It is not simply reactionary to 9/11 We were f...ed by 9/11. What possibly could our government do? What was it going to do? I remember being so angry I wanted to kill a certain group of people. But time went on and the USA reacted. Well.......we set out for Osama Bin Laden (and the end of the Taliban regime), didn't find him so we tried another place...Iraq. Does anyone, anyone in their right minds think this is going well?!?!?! I heard a commercial on the radio on the way home from work talking about some fund raiser to help the decrepit school systems in CT inner cities. I never gave a shit about politics until 9/11. I was 28. Well, I am sorry. As a 31 yr old I am finally interested in politics. I don't want the human race to be extinguished in my or my children or grandchildrens time. I am becoming increasingly distraight and disillusioned by what course our country is taking in the "fight against terrorism". We have created more hatred towards the USA since I can even think of. Genocide is an incomprehensible thought. Did anyone recall Ruwanda in the 90's? I think like 250,000 people were BRUTALLY murdered. I saw some show on one of the big news channels about what things people were forced to do. A quarter of a million people were systematically murdered. Again, history repeats itself. While we are all angry and have feelings of hatred towards ISLAMISTS, the truth is that billions of Muslims are moderate and don't advocate strapping dynamite to their sons and daughters and being proud when he/she blows up a bus. Quote:
Do we follow the Geneva Convention? I am confused. Quote:
WHAT?!?!!? Well digital cameras and the like have made that impossible. And I am certainly not in favor of my leader or my boss not telling me what they are doing?!?!? What if you worked in a company and the CEO wouldn't or couldn't tell you everything the company was doing?!?!. Seems like a rational business model. The leader of the free world said we must attack Iraq because Iraq has WMD (he DID!!! He used them up when WE gave them to him in the 80's for that war called the Iraq-Iran war) He also said "Iraq poses an eminent threat to the US and its allies". Well who are our allies anymore? I have friends overseas and they are appalled at our countries actions. Great say "F..K you to me, to the French, or Spanish. Be angry. Fuel the fire of neverending violence. Of neverending war. Of political idealology that is going to extinguish the human race (or make it a fucking madhouse). And where the hell is Bin Laden? As dazed and distraught I was on 9/11 I recall BUSH speaking shortly after the attacks telling the Taliban to hand over Osama Bin Laden. Isn't he like 6'6"? Is Afghanistan better? Maybe, but there still seems to be awful lot of that warlord stuff going on in. It ain't stabilized. Great we capture Hussein. I think that was good. I really do. I will say it again. Sadaam was a bad man. A very bad man. We show lovely photos of Udey and Ixmays grotesque atopsy photos on tv. I ask, why does the USA feel we have to Rule the World? We are constantly force fed all this violence from the Media, Kazaa. and Ricks Website! Quote:
Thats a great quote. Let's let everyone die and kill each other. What kind of world is this? |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 12th, 2004, 11:16pm Ramon, Ok, I added the word little to your too. But I dont think that the intentions of a derranged dictator like Hitler or Hussein have much bearing on what they did. I supported Bush 41s war againt Saddam because he sold it in terms of an international legal order where genocide and aggression against neighboring countries would not be tolerated. The elder Bush was adamant - it was not about the oil, it was about the principle. Then the machetes started flying in Rwanda, and when questioned, Bush said that we couldnt go into Rwanda as the vital interests of the US were not at stake. No oil. Yugoslavia was unfortunate, but again, opposed by the Republicans - not our problem. Cant turn our troops into nation builders and pizza delivery boys. Now Cheney and his friends who sold weapons to terrorists in Iran to illegally fund terrorists in Nicaragua tell us that this time we are going to Iraq for principle, and the BS meters are stuck on 11. Murder is murder, torture is torture, but numbers do matter. If numbers dont matter, how can you say that the current wardens at Abu Graib are less evil than those of the previous regime. Qualitatively, the torture, rape and murder committed by the occupation forces is no different from that of Saddams troops. But it is less frequent. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Drk^Angel on May 13th, 2004, 12:04am Excuse me if I'm wrong, and I'll make my little statements as brief as possible... But it seems that the primary reason that the Islamic militants/terrorists are anti-American in the first place is our policies of meddling with the Arabic/Islamic people and nations. Many of the terrorist groups that make up the al-Quida network started as opposition to the support of Israel's takeover of Palestine, or our continued financial, military, and political support of their anti-Islamic policies, or our repetitive, bungled attempts to use the Islamic people to support our policies. So how do we fight against these groups? We invade, and occupy Arabic countries, and try to impose our beliefs on their people and laws. No... What the terrorists did to Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg, and all the other innocents they have kidnapped and/or harmed, isn't right. Terrorist attacks, not just 9/11, but all over the world, are not right. But how is occupying a sovereign nation, imposing our laws, and degrading it's people right? How does it help? I guess it's the eye for an eye... Tooth for a tooth thing? Saudi terrorists bomb our buildings, so logically, we must invade Iraq? We're there to eliminate terrorists in Iraq, so now there's more terrorists there than before the war? And of course, we did a great job of ridding Iraq of WMD... No WMD in Iraq now... That's for sure... Of course, doesn't seem there was any before we took over either, but who's counting? I love America, and I'm proud to be an American... But it seems to me our current batch of executive branch leaders are chasing their tails a little too much for America's own good. My hope is that somehow, someway this whole situation can be resolved with as few casualities as possible, and that our soldiers can come home to their families, and their homes very, very soon. PFDAN............................... Drk^Angel P.S. Let the flames begin! DA |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 13th, 2004, 12:27am Drk^Angel , Flames? I applaud all you said and am glad to see you and some others realizing that this isn't workng. DO YOU GET IT?!?!!? THIS IS NOT WORKING!!! We shouldnt be in Iraq, and other places. How people stand behind Bush is beyond my mind. The imposition of our government in other lands ( Arabic lands!!!) is outragious. Someone mentioned Hannity and Colmes or whatever. Rush Limbaugh?!?! Are you serious? These people are entertainers. They are no different than Jay Leno or Letterman. They want money so they say outragious things. I am sorry that any human being of any kind would watch that crap. I saw a news story the other day about a guy at a construction site who fell off a roof and landed on a nailgun. He said he was OK. He had 6 nails in his head. That is news. It is real and I actually saw the X-ray. Hannity, Colmes, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Howard Stern, even Al Franken.....are ENTERTAINERS. The thought of getting your political beliefs from these people is idiotic. They are entertainers saying whatever they can to make money. Our soldiers need to come home. This is a disaster. We blew it. And if we stay, we blow it more. -Scott |
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Title: my atrocity is bigger than yours Post by rumplestiltskin on May 13th, 2004, 1:11am I applaud those of you who oppose this.........war. These latest chapters are having their desired effects. We are being polarized. The fence sitters are getting real uncomfortable. The veils are falling. The forces of darkness are getting darker... Freedom is free. You can't reason with those who think/feel just a little more death will bring peace. They have their Hiroshimas as indisputable proof. Feel free to beat some sense into me. Peace and love den |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Aussie on May 13th, 2004, 1:17am The politicians with the help of the media sent us to war to destroy Sadams weapons of mass destruction. After we failed to find any, the justification for war was modified to the righteous course of expelling Saddam, the butcher of the helpless Iraqi people. The spin is now making us hate all Iraqi people, the very ones we were saving. What a mess!! I am a patriotic Australian, have spent most of my adult life in the Aus. Army and believe in our Western Democratic Ideals. I also spent 6 months in and around Iraq prior to the start of the war in mine field clearance, trying to make the path to Bagdad a little safer for our boys. In defence of the Iraqi people, if a foreign army invaded and occupied my country, I would fight and encourage others to do so, to send them home. I have no answers to solving this mess, do the Politicians of our great countries have a clue!! Let’s hope so. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by RevDeFord on May 13th, 2004, 2:20am The war in Iraq will be victorious. We have lost less than 1000 soldiers to fighting and accidents since the war began. Precious soldiers, but when compared with all of the major conflicts before including Vietnam, Korea, WWs I and II, there is no comparison. We have lost less soldiers in the last year than Israel, a country far smaller than us, has lost in the last 8 months. President Bush said after 9/11 that this would be a long battle and that we must perservere. As you can see, our American liberals and leftests with such short attention spans are ready to blow a gasket. The people in Abu Graib are the worst of the worst combatants. They are of the same lot as those wackos that beheaded Daniel Pearl and this other gent this week. Where is the outcry about these 2 and the 4 that were brutally murdered in Falujah. We can show the pictures of the prison mistreatment on National TV, we can't show these brutal murders. We will stay the course, and if we don't, if we don't pummel our foes in Iraq, then Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and many other enemy states will rise up against us. Our word must remain true, and those who would work to erode our country's freedom and democracy and very existence must be stopped. Hussein did have WMD's, fact. The U.N. knew it, Clinton knew it. The Shiite muslims who were gassed to death in their village after the first gulf war sure knew it. Where they went? I am sure we will find what we need. I am sure operations will turn up evidence of weapons smuggling in Iran and Syria. Take heart, our forces are working hard. Talk to the majority of our military personnel - I do so on a regular basis as a pastor, and you will find that they are flabbergasted at the negative reporting the U.S. media is doing on this given that they have a huge sense of accomplishment and are building relationships with true Iraqis. Sure they miss their families terribly. They want to come home. But the overwhelming majority of our troops know they are making a huge difference for freedom. And as far as Bin Laden, he will be found. Between our troops and the Pakistanis(joke) we will starve him to death. There are only so many mountain goats he can eat and somone has to go to Albertson's or Watanabe's Market to pick up some grub. And then we get him. But it takes more patience and loyalty to do what is right than the leftest have. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Gator on May 13th, 2004, 2:33am on 05/12/04 at 22:02:39, purpleydog wrote:
What the fuss is all about pdog is that we are over there telling them how much better we and our system of government are than Saddam's rule of self amuzement. At the same time, a group of American soldiers decide to be their own vigilante force and teach the prisoners a lesson. While you and I can certainly understand why they did it and maybe even secretly applaude it, those soldiers were representing this country and it's ideals. It is explained to every American military person that goes overseas that they are ambassadors for this country. That what they show the host nation is what those people will think of America. It doesn't matter what we say, what we show them is what matters. What they showed those prisoners and ultimately the world was that Americans speak of high moral ideals and then delight in the humiliation of people that have no means to fight back. You are right, they can dish it out, but they can't take it. But that's not the problem here. They shouldn't have to take it at all, because we shouldn't be dishing it out. It against every rule in the mililtary about the treatment of prisoners and against our own nations moral and ethical codes. We are supposedly morally superior to these people and as such should take the moral high ground. What Bush did was explain, and rightly so, that those few people do not represent the core values of America. That some of our troops fucked up and will be severely dealt with according to OUR laws. This whole incident has sparked more intense fighting, has compromised the effectiveness of negotiations for the turning over of power to the Iraqis, and has some of our allies rethinking just who we really are. Some are pulling out of Iraq all together. It has also doomed any American captured to torture and/or death. Some Iraqi clerics are calling for punishment in kind. The old "Eye for an eye" type thing. I'm sure anyone captured by enemy forces will get at least that, probably much worse. As if all this weren't bad enough, apparently there are also pictures and reports of British soldiers raping Iraqi women, making this entire war to end the atrocities of Saddam a farce to the Iraqi people and to the rest of the world. Basically, it comes down to two rules of life. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "Practice what you preach" Gator |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 13th, 2004, 8:20am Quote:
Are you kidding me? Come see me in 5 years. Quote:
Stop watching all that TV crap. I am an American and I think for myself. Not for some labeled BS of a party. Get real Rush. Quote:
Right, why don't we add a few more countries on there and drop bombs, kill children, and torture their prisoners. Jeez, I wonder why much of the world is disugested with us (USA). Quote:
Wait, I am confused. Bush said we need to attack Iraq because they HAVE WMD. Not they HAD WMD. I said it before. We provided him with all those weapons in the 80's to fight the Iraq-Iran war. Since we wanted Iraq to win, we gave Saddam the weapons. Those weapons are long-gone. He already used them (on his own people and the Iranians). Oh yeah, there were some of those Oliver North-types who gave money/weapons to Iran. Good grief! -Scott |
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Title: Re: my atrocity is bigger than yours Post by purpleydog on May 13th, 2004, 10:12am on 05/13/04 at 01:11:04, rumplestiltskin wrote:
Freedom is not FREE. What rock have you been hiding under? purpleydog |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 13th, 2004, 10:22am Maybe you'd like to hear about something other than idiot Reservists and naked Iraqis. Maybe you'd like to hear about a real American, somebody who honored the uniform he wears. Meet Brian Chontosh. Churchville-Chili Central School class of 1991. Proud graduate of the Rochester Institute of Technology. Husband and about-to-be father. First lieutenant in the United States Marine Corps. And a genuine hero. The secretary of the Navy said so yesterday. At 29 Palms in California Brian Chontosh was presented with the Navy Cross, the second highest award for combat bravery the United States can bestow. That's a big deal. But you won't see it on the network news tonight, and all you read in Brian's hometown newspaper was two paragraphs of nothing. Instead, it was more blather about some mental defective MPs who acted like animals. The odd fact about the American media in this war is that it's not covering the American military. The most plugged-in nation in the world is receiving virtually no true information about what its warriors are doing. Oh, sure, there's a body count. We know how many Americans have fallen. And we see those same casket pictures day in and day out. And we're almost on a first-name basis with the pukes who abused the Iraqi prisoners. And we know all about improvised explosive devices and how we lost Fallujah and what Arab public-opinion polls say about us and how the world hates us. We get a non-stop feed of gloom and doom. But we don't hear about the heroes. The incredibly brave GIs who honorably do their duty. The ones our grandparents would have carried on their shoulders down Fifth Avenue. The ones we completely ignore. Like Brian Chontosh. It was a year ago on the march into Baghdad. Brian Chontosh was a platoon leader rolling up Highway 1 in a humvee. When all hell broke loose. Ambush city. The young Marines were being cut to ribbons. Mortars, machine guns, rocket propelled grenades. And the kid out of Churchville was in charge. It was do or die and it was up to him. So he moved to the side of his column, looking for a way to lead his men to safety. As he tried to poke a hole through the Iraqi line his humvee came under direct enemy machine gun fire. It was fish in a barrel and the Marines were the fish. And Brian Chontosh gave the order to attack. He told his driver to floor the humvee directly at the machine gun emplacement that was firing at them. And he had the guy on top with the .50 cal unload on them. Within moments there were Iraqis slumped across the machine gun and Chontosh was still advancing, ordering his driver now to take the humvee directly into the Iraqi trench that was attacking his Marines. Over into the battlement the humvee went and out the door Brian Chontosh bailed, carrying an M16 and a Beretta and 228 years of Marine Corps pride. And he ran down the trench. With its mortars and riflemen, machineguns and grenadiers. And he killed them all. He fought with the M16 until he was out of ammo. Then he fought with the Beretta until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up a dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up another dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. At one point he even fired a discarded Iraqi RPG into an enemy cluster, sending attackers flying with its grenade explosion. When he was done Brian Chontosh had cleared 200 yards of entrenched Iraqis from his platoon's flank. He had killed more than 20 and wounded at least as many more. But that's probably not how he would tell it. He would probably merely say that his Marines were in trouble, and he got them out of trouble. Hoo-ah, and drive on. "By his outstanding display of decisive leadership, unlimited courage in the face of heavy enemy fire, and utmost devotion to duty, 1st Lt. Chontosh reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service." That's what the citation says. And that's what nobody will hear. That's what doesn't seem to be making the evening news. Accounts of American valor are dismissed by the press as propaganda, yet accounts of American difficulties are heralded as objectivity. It makes you wonder if the role of the media is to inform, or to depress - to report or to deride. To tell the truth, or to feed us lies. But I guess it doesn't matter. We're going to turn out all right. As long as men like Brian Chontosh wear our uniform. by Bob Lonsberry C 2004 This guy is a fucking soldier. |
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Title: Re: my atrocity is bigger than yours Post by thomas on May 13th, 2004, 10:25am on 05/13/04 at 01:11:04, rumplestiltskin wrote:
And you have your Ghulags. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 13th, 2004, 10:56am Quote:
Right.....great. That sounds wonderful with my bagel and coffee. Why don't we teach this to our children. I have SEVERAL friends who served in the NAVY. They weren't combantants, but people who couln't afford college, etc. They learned job-skills and I am happy that they did so. Thomas, I know you come from a different background and have been involved with the military, but what you said proudly about murdering people disgusts me. Sorry. I would rather see a different solution to this mess. I feel sorry for this fellow. He may be traumatized, he may become like you. Someone who is Gung-ho on killing and war. It ain't working. We are LOSING in Iraq. We are losing in Europe. We are losing everywhere. All the actions we have taken since 9/11 have created more animosity towards the USA and it is growing each day. So go out with your guns, rifles, machettes, whatever and kill and be proud. I DO LOVE this country. But I am dissillusioned by our actions. It better stop. If not, it is only going to snowball. -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 13th, 2004, 11:10am on 05/13/04 at 10:56:13, HypnoticFreddy wrote:
Hey Scott, you are welcome, buddy. I'm proud to be included in a group of people that so thouroghly disgust you, because we have given you the right to be disgusted by our actions. Our blood and sweat have paid for your freedom. As far as being gung-ho on war and killing, you are mistaken. If you read the story closely, you will see that this man's actions saved many American lives. Maybe you would have been happier if he would have surrendered, but I am glad he did what he was supposed to do and took care of business and got his boys out alive. Just my [smiley=twocents.gif] |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by BlueMeanie on May 13th, 2004, 1:08pm It looks like the youger generation doesn't realize what it takes to maintain OUR freedom. War is inevietable. News people DO NOT belong on a battlefield. How do you think we can go into a country and find a single person hidden in a hole in the ground. It takes information and forceful tacticts. Every war includes torture, blood and death. We can't just keep saying we our civilized Americans and we will treat the enemy like they our are friends. They have no problem killing any of US. We gotta do what it takes to WIN this war one way or another. Otherwise we might as well ALL roll over & let Al-Quida and other terrorists groups to continue to grow and terrorize, not only OUR country, but the world. All the other countries who are not willing to help fight for freedom are benefiting while we are made out to look like the bad guys. I don't like the idea the we must police the world of terrany, but who else is gonna stop the world from distruction if we don't. Proud to be an American and proud of our troops fighting to keep us free. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by stevegeebe on May 13th, 2004, 1:33pm I wish we would hear more about the good stuff our troops are doing. Sad it will not happen. Thanks Thomas. Save you pity Scott..I don't think Mr. Chontosh will require it. Please pass the sugar... Steve G |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 13th, 2004, 1:34pm Quote:
Yes I am young. War is inevitable? Maybe, but not this war. Not this war that has nothing to do with fighting terrorism. All it is doing is fueling more fire and hatred towards the US by these Al-queda groups. We have NO, NONE, ZIPPO justification for being there. By us invading Iraq. we have created a whole new breed of Islamist terrorists. As far as NEWS people not belonging on a battlefield?!?! Well, maybe I am wrong but I seem to recall seeing an awful lot of footage of WWII (especially of all these bodies piled on top of each other after they had been gassed). I also seem to recall seeing Vietnam War footage too. . If the media is not allowed to show WHAT IS REALLY happening, then we live in that old Russian world where newscasters had guns held to their heads to tell the "correct" news. So let's keep killing people, dropping bombs, invading countries, becoming occupiers with our wonderful moral values, and making the world hate us. We are doing GREAT at that. We can't make the Arabic world think like we do. Why can't we understand this???? Get the hell out of there! We should be developing effective alternatives to these current patterns of violence. We should be working towards demilitarizing, and eliminating weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We should recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. But we need non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and this, perhaps, will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace. -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 13th, 2004, 1:40pm on 05/13/04 at 13:34:56, HypnoticFreddy wrote:
Not, if we erradicate them. ;;D |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by BobG on May 13th, 2004, 2:24pm Guess I'll put in my 2 cents worth and then not click on this subject again...... The USA nor any other country should have troops in Iraq. The ragheads there have been killing each other for centuries. It is their religion, their way of life, bred into them since birth. Piss on 'em. Pull our troops out and let the Iraqui's choose up sides and go back to their way of life. Let them all kill each other. They like it. The world will be a better place. Piss on 'em As for the questionable treatment of Iraqi prisoners. Big fuckin' deal. All's fair in love and war. This isn't the first time a couple of prisoners got a ass kickin', and it won't be the last. I do have a question about though..why did they take pictures? Dumb move. Too bad the E-1, 2 and 3's will have to take all the blame. Think any high ranking NCO's or officers will get court martialed. Not much chance in that. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2004, 3:59pm Holy cow. Quote:
Well, I've been around here for 57 years and never in my lifetime have I seen a larger percentage of young people who call themselves patriotic...and try to demonstrate it or have I seen so many flags flying. It can’t hurt. Neither does being careful. Also, people have a delusion that because I'm sure not a bible thumper and think the Pat Robertsons of the world are dangerous, that I have a real problem with the pledge, school prayer or crosses in cemeteries. Not really. One doesn’t have to pay attention if they don’t want. All this screaming, prostrating and suing over religious stuff is a big waste of time, energy and money. Build a school, feed the hungry...hell, build a church. I don't mind religious stuff so long as I don't trip over it. I appreciate your service too. I have never been anti-military. Being so would be dangerous. I, for one, have always been impressed with the American military. I read that in WWII, most of the vanquished were dumbfounded at the civility of our soldiers and basic decency. Somewhere along the line, we do a good job on this front as well. You show the same with your concern one way or the other. (Just a minute kids...what happened is horrible but not new and these youngsters have no business being in our military. Maybe they need a dose of our friend: The Rev.) You're not getting off this easily folks..more to come Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2004, 4:22pm Bush's bizarre effort to win over all those Arabs, has devoloved in pornography. Morally pure George Bush, now has his own sex scandal. :o There is something even more important to the Bush crowd than getting Iraq right, and that's getting re-elected. It has always been more important for the Bush folks to defeat liberals at home than Baathists abroad. That's why they look at polls rather than Iraqi history. There was a contradiction between the Bush war on taxes and the Bush war on terrorism. It lowers taxes which in effect helps lower troop levels. Trying to control 35,000,000 with 135,000 men ain't easy. I like what Tom Freidman says (and he has supported the Iraq war) 'Why, in the face of the Abu Ghraib travesty, wouldn't the administration make some uniquely American gesture? Because these folks have no clue how to export hope. They would never think of saying, "Let's close this prison immediately and reopen it in a month as the Abu Ghraib Technical College for Computer Training — with all the equipment donated by Dell, H.P. and Microsoft." Makes sense to me. "(Here's the new Rummy Defense: "I am accountable. But the little guys were responsible. I was just giving orders." Add it all up, and you see how we got so off track in Iraq, why we are dancing alone in the world — and why our president, who has a strong moral vision, has no moral influence." Still more: Charlie 8) |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2004, 4:46pm Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Iraq is a mess. A quote from General Meyers before the Senate the other day: "There is no way to militarily lose in Iraq," he said, describing the generals' consensus. "There is also no way to militarily win in Iraq." From the Rev: Quote:
I reitereate. The British went through almost exactly the same thing more thna 80 years ago and went out of their way to say they were liberators, not conquerors. Quote:
Can't sell SUVs covering good news. It's money. How about we park the Abraham Lincoln in the Gulf (it isn't the Cole) and load it with military goodies and Marines? Even Saddam didn't fool with us while we were there. Works for me and it would cost us so much less from every angle. Not very sexy I know. Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by jonny on May 13th, 2004, 5:01pm on 05/12/04 at 15:15:59, Bob P wrote:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4db32b3127ccebe218d0c295a0000001610 http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4db32b3127ccebe218dde29880000001610 ANYONE REMEMBER THIS?!! .................................jonny |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by buckeyescooter on May 13th, 2004, 5:08pm I Remember.....I also remember that Iraq had nothing to do with the Twin Towers. Somewhere we seem to have forgotten this. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2004, 5:20pm Neither did liberals or any American. It was that bottom feeder bin Laden. >:( Not Clinton nor Bush either. Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by jonny on May 13th, 2004, 5:20pm on 05/13/04 at 17:08:26, buckeyescooter wrote:
Ok Buck, will this do? http://www.liddyshow.us/liddyfile38.php .....................................jonny Notice who made the last quote....LMMFAO ;;D |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2004, 5:25pm Yup. You can rely on a guy who did time for lying and coverups and who showed pictures of the 1934 Nuremberg Nazi party rally to show his friends to show them what a "real" rally was like. (from Liddy himself by the way) Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by jonny on May 13th, 2004, 5:28pm Those quotes are not the G mans quotes now are they? ..................................jonny |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 13th, 2004, 5:31pm on 05/13/04 at 17:28:57, jonny wrote:
No, but this is "How are you today, Gordon?" "Virile, vigorous and potent." LMFAO. [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2004, 5:32pm Is "G-Man" Gordon? Don't know. The quote comes from about 30 years ago, from Liddy, during an interview about the trials. At the time, I sort of liked the goof. I learned better. God I'm old. ::) Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by jonny on May 13th, 2004, 5:38pm on 05/13/04 at 17:32:26, Charlie wrote:
That dont make any of the quotes on his site unsaid by who said them. ...................................jonny |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by BlueMeanie on May 13th, 2004, 6:09pm on 05/13/04 at 17:08:26, buckeyescooter wrote:
Hmmmm. Do you really believe that ? |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 13th, 2004, 6:19pm Yes other than as cheerleaders. It was bin Laden's bunch of twisted psychos. Zero evidence for Iraq so far and if there was, it would be spewing from the White House about every 5 minutes. Charlie |
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Title: ;;DRe: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by buckeyescooter on May 13th, 2004, 6:20pm C'mon now Jonny....Gordon Liddy? Convicted felon? Quotes from where? What publications? That guys crazier than a shithouse rat. I gotta get my ass to Nashville.....win me that 3rd prize raffle. We need to have some dinner and drinks. ;;D |
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Title: Re: ;;DRe: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 13th, 2004, 6:24pm on 05/13/04 at 18:20:07, buckeyescooter wrote:
Hell, you should be one of the "prizes" who wouldn't want to go to dinner with a genuine hollywood guy? ;;D |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by purpleydog on May 13th, 2004, 6:30pm on 05/13/04 at 13:08:57, BlueMeanie wrote:
Fuckeneh!! |
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Title: Re: ;;DRe: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by jonny on May 13th, 2004, 6:33pm on 05/13/04 at 18:20:07, buckeyescooter wrote:
I dont see any of those people suing the G-man, Do you? ....................................jonny |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by purpleydog on May 13th, 2004, 6:37pm on 05/12/04 at 22:39:58, Gator wrote:
Think you could have pulled that trigger, Gator??? |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 13th, 2004, 6:38pm on 05/13/04 at 18:37:07, purpleydog wrote:
Rest assured the man on the other side of your weapon is gonna pull his trigger, so if I know Gator well enough, I think he would be able to pull his first. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by jonny on May 13th, 2004, 6:41pm on 05/13/04 at 18:38:56, thomas wrote:
Get a room....LMMFAO ;;D ...................................jonny Gotcha, Bro ;;D ......................................jonny |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 13th, 2004, 6:42pm on 05/13/04 at 18:41:43, jonny wrote:
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Title: Re: my atrocity is bigger than yours Post by Slammy on May 13th, 2004, 7:27pm on 05/13/04 at 01:11:04, rumplestiltskin wrote:
Tell that to the millions of souls that died since 1776 defending freedom. Quote:
Quit fucken politicising IRAQ! left-wing flag-burning organization! I know you are a friggin liberal! turn the feakin page! Quote:
Geez... if you are so dismayed, why don't you just move north to Toronto! ;;D Quote:
Hmm ok, we will just leave. Dishonor those that have fallen there and create a governance vaccuum! What are you.... NEW? We need to stay the course and finish the job! And I agree with Josh when he says: "Kill the ones who did it! Then kill the ones who supported it! Then kill all the ones who are happy about it! " ;;D Slammy 8) |
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Title: Re: ;;DRe: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by buckeyescooter on May 13th, 2004, 7:27pm on 05/13/04 at 18:24:36, thomas wrote:
Jonny's got better hair |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by 5-string on May 13th, 2004, 10:42pm I'm a libertarian that usually votes demacratic. With that said,politicians are politicians.They get blamed for things they did'nt cause,stand against things they voted for 2 years ago,throw bones to the voters around election time,etc..but John McCain is one person I truly respect and look up to. I'm sorry,but I don't trust Donald Rumsfeld. I do trust John McCain. ....Mark.. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 13th, 2004, 11:05pm Those photos posted earlier showing awful views of the attacks on the WTC were tasteless. Of course I remember. My family is from Manhatten. I spent a lot of time in NYC (and still do). I had been on top of the towers twice. I was freaked out as we all are were. I remeber how angry and how I wanted to kill everyobdy I was for weeks maybe months. Quote:
They were used up on his own people and the Iranians. Did some of these weapons get "smuggled" out? Who knows. Doesn't matter. George Bush, our leader, said we need to attack Iraq because they have WMD. Well no sign of any, and we still haven't found this 6'6" man named Osama Bin Laden in almost 3 years. We are trying to instill our type of so called "Democratic" governement in Afghanistan and Iraq and it ain't working. Again, I agreed with Charlie or whoever said we just can't go to those countries and put in place our government and be successful. These are Arab lands. Baghdad is seriosuly a religious city from the beginning. Are there good things going on in Iraq? Yes, I know that humitarian acts are TRYING to be done. I also see non-military personal there inluding media and contractors and whatever. I do believe many Iraqis are glad to see Saddam removed, but what is the result? Quote:
I agree with Charlie. Iraq were Cheerleaders. Don't most people relaize that the majority of the hijackers were Saudi? Why haven't we attacked them? Oh yeah...OIL. Quote:
Moveon.org is a great site, but people who believe in liberals vs. conservatives will have a hard time with this website and it's messages. I always have found people who are very conservative or very "right" to be hard-headed, hard-nosed, hard whatever. It is either back or white. Well....gues what there is an in-between and we are SO LUCKY to be able to think these ways. Maybe CHs make people more callous. Who knows? I don't understand why we are either labeled as either a liberal or a conservative. I belong to another party (and no it's not the American Pot Party, which actually exists). I believe in things as I want and see. Not how a PARTY dictates how I should feel and believe. Quote:
Well.....If you are anti-war that does not make you a "bad" American and suggests leaving the US. Yes, bring the military home. I was touched by my friend who is stationed in the Sunni triangle, to see him get 2 weeks to come to NY and see his newborn baby. I looked in his eyes and knew he didn't want to go back to Iraq. I found out he is an MP and he has been involved in cleaning up the aftermath of bus bombingd and the like. Yow! In the US, we are entitled to our beliefs and are allowed to speak out against or FOR the government. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT MAKES AMERICA GREAT! And I love it for that. In other places, we wouldn't have these choices. If people realized that in lieu of being in the military and fighting, and I KNOW we need a military (better than the Mexican Air-Force UFO thing), yes of course. We NEED to protect ourselves. We also need to thing of other strategies to fight terrorism. I believe we did some right things. Our governement got the cooperation of other governments and were able to cut-off some financial ties (or we hope) with terrorist organizations. That is good. Invading Arab countries and trying to put our governemnt in place is wrong and isn't working. -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by purpleydog on May 13th, 2004, 11:09pm on 05/13/04 at 02:20:32, RevDeFord wrote:
Rev, are you really a pastor? Or is that just your net name? purpleydog |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Ree on May 14th, 2004, 12:11am If 911 had nothing to do with going into Iraq before... Now that those cowards have jumped in and decapitated another of our civilians... "because," as they say "of the abuse in the prison in Iraq. " They just connected themselves as far as I am concerned. Evil works with the devil and as far as I am concerned they are all related. So these guys compare shaming someone by showing their private parts to decapitation. We have degraded these decapitators... by showing the private parts of Iraqi prisoners...???... I don't get it... I felt horrible about the abuse. Now I am sickened. And by the way I am sick of seeing these abusive private parts pictures... and without warning... I have written to my senator... and am wondering where the FCC is in all of this?... If we cannot see Janet Jacksons breast why can we (at Primetime and in between progams), see the pictures of the abuse at the prison. I have a 10 year old daughter that has 1 brothers in Iraq and one protecting us here. For the 130,000 good soldiers we should NOT be showing those pictures... I think the media is a guilty party here. If there wasn't a media for the video of that killing... there probably wouldn't have been a murder... think about it..........ree |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Racer1_NC on May 14th, 2004, 12:47am Below is an editorial from Panama City, Florida's "The News Herald" by Phil Lucas, the paper's Executive Editor. It appeared on Sunday April 4, 2004. His email address is plucas@pcnh.com. The News Herald web site is found at http://www.newsherald.com/ Up Against Fanaticism By Phil Lucas, Executive Editor, Panama City News Herald If straight talk of savagery offends you, if you believe in ethnic and gender diversity but not diversity of thought or if you think there is an acceptable gray area between good and evil, then turn to the funny pages, and take the children, too. This piece is not for you. We published pictures Thursday of burnt American corpses hanging from an Iraqi bridge behind a mob of grinning Muslims. Some readers didn't like it. Mothers said it frightened their children. A woman who works with Muslim physicians thought it might offend or endanger them. Well, we sure don't want to frighten, offend or endanger anybody, do we? That's just too much diversity to handle. I mean, somebody might get hurt. We could fill the newspaper every morning with mobs of fanatical Muslims. They can't get along with their neighbors on much of the planet: France, Chechnya, Bosnia, Indonesia, Spain, Morocco, India, Tunisia, Somalia, etc. etc. etc. Can anybody name three ongoing world conflicts in which Muslims are not involved? Today, where there is war, there are fanatical Muslims. We might quibble about who started what conflicts, but look at the sheer number of them. One thing is sure. Muslim killers started the one we are in now when they slaughtered more that 3,000 people, including fellow Muslims, in New York City. Madeleine Albright, the former secretary of state and feckless appeaser who helped get us into this mess, said last week Muslims still resent the Crusades. Well, Madam Albright, if Westerners were not such a forgiving people, we might resent them too. Let's recap the Crusades. Muslims invaded Europe, and when they reached sufficient numbers, they imposed their intolerant religion upon Westerners by force. Christian monarchs drove them back and took the battle to their homeland. The fight lasted a couple of centuries, and we bottled them up for 1,000 years. Now, a millennium later, Muslims have expanded forth again. Ask France. Ask England. Ask Manhattan. Two-and-a-half years ago fanatical Muslims laid siege to us. We woke up to the obvious. Our president announced it would be a very long war, then took the battle to the Islamic homeland. Sound Familiar? Let's consider the concept of a "long war.! " Last time it was 200 years, give or take. Anybody catch Lord of the Rings? You know, the good part, the part that wasn't fiction, the part that drew us to the books and movies because it was the truest part: the titanic struggle between good and evil, between freedom and enslavement, between the individual and the state, between the celebration of life and the worshipping of death. That's the fight we are in, and it never ends. It just has peaks and valleys. There may be a silent majority of peaceful Muslims - some live here - but that did not save 3,000 people in the World Trade Center, the million gassed and butchered in the Middle East, the tens of thousands slain in Eastern Europe and Asia, the hundreds blown to bits in the West Bank and Spain, or the four Americans shot, burned and hung like sausage over the Euphrates as a fanatical minority of Muslims did the joyful dance of death. Maybe we are so tolerant, we are so bent on "diversity," we are so nonjudgmental, we are so wrapped up in our six-packs and ballgames that our brains have drained to our bulbous behinds. Maybe we're so addled on Ritalin we wouldn't know which end of a gun to hold. Maybe we need a new drug advertised on TV every three minutes, one that would help us grow a backbone. It doesn't take a Darwin to figure out that in this world the smartest, the fastest, the strongest, and the most committed always win. No exceptions. Look at your spouse and children. Look at your self in the mirror. Then look at the pictures from the paper last Thursday. You better look at them. Those are the people out to kill you. Who do you think will win? You? Or them? Think you can take your ball and go home and they will leave you alone? Read a little history. Start with last week, last month, last year, and every other year back for half a century. Then go back a thousand years. Nobody hides from this fight. Like it or not, that's the way it was and that's the way it is. But many Americans don't get it. That's why we published those pictures. If they jarred you off the sofa, if they offended you, if they scared your children and sent you into a rage at mass murderers or heartless editors, then I say, it's a start. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Drk^Angel on May 14th, 2004, 2:50am Was it really necessary to post such an anti-Muslim article? Isn't it bad enough that the war argument has been turned into a political fight, do we really need to turn it into a religious one too? PFDAN................................. Drk^Angel |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 14th, 2004, 3:05am Several things: It never stops. Nothing is ever the neocon’s fault. It’s always Bill Clinton. This is the standard and inane reply to all our woes. Stupid works for them. Quote:
Where is this land? I have no sympathy for any kind of religious war but you cannot give Christians a pass when it comes to the horrors perpetrated for the last 2,000 years. The early Christian church was just as guilty of mass murder. The world is still drenched in blood every day from intolerance. Nevertheless, there is something to think about: The people we are so keen to win over are ruled by despots. We aren't: Better. We have rule of law: Better. We don't stone women because of what they wear: Better. However, the way we're going about it, ain't gonna have much effect. Just the opposite. There is nothing wrong with 99.99% of the military. They do all right. It would be nice to have a strategy. Finally, liberals don't do what neocons do. They don't call them traitors, evil, unAmerican or unpatriotic. Neocons do to please the bizarre Falwell type conservatives. You know, one of these days these guys will find out that most of the neocons don't give a shit about their attempts to make the place into a theocracy. They just use them to get elected. Works so far. John McCain ? You bet. A great man and one of the few progressives in the GOP. They are few and far between now. I left the GOP when the libertarians and progressives couldn't stand it any longer. What a shame. Soon, the pendulum will swing back when the voters get sick of it. It is time to ask this question: Do we have any chance of succeeding at regime change in Iraq without regime change here at home? These torture pictures play into every stereotype of America that Arabs have: America as debauched, America as hypocrites. We're trying to win the hearts and minds as we're killing them and torturing them. Ain't gonna be done that way. Ah me. Charlie |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by bobkip on May 14th, 2004, 8:07am Anti muslim? Where? Great post. Kip |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 14th, 2004, 8:22am Thats great Bobkip, "where is the anti-Muslim site?" Genocide will continue with people with attitudes like that. I don't find any humor in this. Again, after seeing 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered in WWII, I am not for anti-any religion. People need to differentiate between Fundamentalist Muslims (or Islamists or fanatics or whatever) and moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are not much different than you or me. I believe there is a gigantic difference between the two groups. Right now, due to our actions, and other reasons, there are MORE fundamental Muslims. If we keep invading Arab countries there will be EVEN MORE Fundamental Muslims. So keep up the hate. Ethnocentric Americans!!! So let's keep invading countries, killing people, torturing prisoners, saying things like, "Oh God, the media shouldn't show these photos...." Go on.....Live in your ONE-SIDED WE ARE THE USA AND WE ARE THE WORLD attitude. Go on.... be angry. Kill!!!! Teach your children to kill!!!! Charlie, I am not sure what percentage of the US military is "bad'. I do think it is mostly a few bad apples within the commanders, and when it gets down to it, it's these clowns in the White House. Yet, people want to believe that our course of invading Arab countries, and war is "winning the war on terra" NOPE! I agree with DarkAngel and Charlie. Most if not all wars are/were based on religion. The early Crusades, the Christians, etc. Where is the difference? I know it was hard after 9/11, especially seeing all those Palestinian kids dancing in the streets passing out candy. Stop with all this USA!! USA!!! USA!!! Talk to people from other countries and ask them what they think. Oh, "I don't care what those people think!!" Fine. And also keep up this liberal vs. conservative CRAP. Think for yourselves. -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by kimh on May 14th, 2004, 8:26am iknowyouarebutwhatami. good lord. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 14th, 2004, 9:33am Too bad editors don't have to qualify for their position by demonstrating a proficiency in history or logic. Or maybe he is using the fallacy of faulty generalization not because he is a dimwit, but because he means to persuade and knows that people tend to think with their emotions more than they think with their brain. I guess its time for an Orwellian National Hate Week. The crusades can be recapped as the Muslims emmigrating to Europe and trying to take it over?? Somebody has been reading too many of those little comic books handed out by the televangelists with bad hair. The crusades were about capturing Jerusalem, and the crusaders were just as hate filled and brutal as any modern day boogy-man. Quote:
Can anybody name three ongoing conflicts where Muslims are not involved? Yes, if they know whats going on in the world. Columbia, Angola, Peru, Sri Lanka, Congo, Burundi, and Nepal. If you change 'ongoing' to the last 25 years or 'our life time' you can add Tibet, Rwanda, El Salvador, Guatemala, Cambodia, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, Chiapas Mexico, Mozambique, Argentina, Nicaragua (and most of Europe if your an old timer.) Then there are fault lines that are currently quiet, but could explode at any minute. Korea and China-Taiwan are just two examples. The greatest danger to the United States is that we see the world not as it is, but how we wish to see it. Advantage in military strength can't always compensate for ignorance of history, religions, and cultures. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 14th, 2004, 9:48am on 05/14/04 at 09:33:00, floridian wrote:
Agreed, however, there are always multiple interpretations of historical events. And now we are taught to think with our "hearts", you can forget logic. Critical thinking is no longer taught, we are raising a generation of sheep and goats, the sheep are herded by the left wing media, the teachers union, and hollwood. The goats by rush limbaugh, fox news and their ilk. So, as we continue to empower those, who would control us for nothing more than the sake of power...... we are getting our just desserts. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by floridian on May 14th, 2004, 10:03am Quote:
True, up to a point. Some things are a matter of forming a perspective based on complex info that is incomplete and sometimes contradictory. Differences on that are expected and welcome. Deciding which historical parallel is relevant to a case involves judgement. But history contains a large body of fact that is beyond arguing. And too many people are ignorant of even the most basic history - goats and sheep, as you say. Was it Mark Twain who said that the problem with democracy is that people sometimes get what they want but usually get what they deserve? |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 14th, 2004, 10:07am on 05/14/04 at 10:03:22, floridian wrote:
If you were there to witness it, yes. Otherwise, theory, conjecture, grapevine interpretations....... Hell the history my gf's kids are being taught is way different than what I learned in school. [smiley=huh.gif] |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by mynm156 on May 14th, 2004, 10:13am While I am not happy about the mess that we are in as it seems we are losing more good people everyday without much to show for it. This is not just for us as the whole world really has been dealing with the terrors of War and Terrorism for a long long time. I just wish more countries would dedicate resourses and help make it known that we as a SPECIES are nolonger tolerant of these types of acts!!! God Bless All Who Fight For US!!!! THANK YOU!!!! |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 14th, 2004, 11:36am Quote:
I agree with most of what MYNM156 says, but I am not seeing how "fighting" or "killing" is helping. It is only making matters worse. There are no easy solutions. I realize that. And yes, we need the military and other militaries to combat this influenza of terrorism that has infested this planet for A LONG TIME. I just don't see how occupying Arabic countries and imposing our government is doing any good. I wish I knew the answers. We all do. Quote:
I wish that people would stop labeling each other as either left-wing liberals or right-wing conservatives. I hate these labels and if people would think with their own minds and not under the "teachings" of a political label, we might have better results. Yeah, I know....Checks and balances... But there are people in this country who are neither of the above. Perhaps they borrow ideals and principles from both parties, but one can think "outside the box" and not be labeled as either left or right. A 2-party system does not work. And I know on the local or state level that there are independants (or other party) elected officials, but there seems to be none of this at the highest levels of our government. Once again....sad. The only way to become President in this country is to be a multi-millionaire. Uggghhh! -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by thomas on May 14th, 2004, 11:59am on 05/14/04 at 11:36:34, HypnoticFreddy wrote:
Hey, Scott, I don't label those who think outside the box. But we are only taught to question authority, if it is right of center. Anything left of center is gospel and undisputable. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 14th, 2004, 12:03pm Thomas [smiley=laugh.gif] You mean the quote box above? -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Gator on May 14th, 2004, 12:10pm Scott do you really believe you can talk, discuss and/or negotiate with every individual or group that is bent on your harm or total destruction? Do you really believe there is a peaceful resolution to every situation? Were you never harassed by bullies or did you never know of people who were? Did your mom and dad raise you on "Father Knows Best" and "Leave It To Beaver" reruns and Disney movies where there is always a happy ending? What planet were you raised on where life is that simple and everyone is that rational? Did you actually watch the video of the man being decapitated? I think everyone should, especially those who think we can negotiate with these people. It wasn't what you might have had pictured in your mind of the painless one stroke and it's done thing seen in movies. It wasn't done with an axe or a large heavy sword, but with a big knife. The animal doing the decapitating had to go back many times to actually sever the head from the body. The killer had to hack and saw through the man's neck from different angles to finally complete the job. And why was it done? Supposedly because we humiliated some of his people. Not maimed or killed, but humiliated. These people don't believe in an eye for an eye, they believe in the destruction and death of all non-muslim people. Heck, they even kill other muslims who do not believe as fanatically as they do. The prison abuse thing was just a handy excuse. How can you rationally discuss anything with someone who thinks that way? Yeah, it may make you sick. You might even blow chunks, but go see it. See for yourself the mindset of the people you want to negotiate with. I truly wish the sane and rational world you dream of existed, but that is not reality. I wish that every situation could have a peaceful resolution. I wish that every bully or terrorist could be swayed by words, but that isn't reality. There comes a time in all our lives, most of us who live in the real world anyways, that you have to fight. Right now our country and the entire world is being threatened by an ideology that means to totally destroy our way of life and force us into their fanatical religious slavery. By a sect who kill even their own people and have perverted their own religion to justify their war on everyone that does not believe in that religion. We are in World War 4. (The cold war was WW3) The world-wide war against Radical Islamic Terrorism. In this war, the pacifist, the peaceful sheep, those who wring their hands and say we should talk more will be led to slaughter. KOP said it first and I believe he is right Quote:
It has just begun and unless the world wakes up to the reality of it, there will be more 9/11's and more train bombings and more Nick Bergs all over the world. Quote:
Get a clue. The only reason you can even post that ridiculous nonsense here is because some fought and and others died for that freedom. Quote:
I spent almost 13 years learning new and better ways of killing someone. I spent the last 5 years of that time teaching it to others. I walked the streets as an armed Law Enforcement officer for 9 years. My job was not to die for my country. It was to give the other guy a chance to die for his. (I know, I know, I borrowed this from Patton) I was more than ready for this. I firmly believe I would have had no qualms with and no sleepless nights over pulling the trigger. For those who argue we need more troops over in Iraq, I agree. I think we should double the number of troops over there. I also believe that we need to use our generous contributions to European safety and stability over their heads to force them to help as well. We aren't in this for ourselves alone and we should not fight it alone. Help us out or we will pull out of your country and let you fight for your freedom by yourself. Quote:
Exactly. Gator Nuke 'em til they glow and use their asses for runway lights! |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 14th, 2004, 1:02pm Gator, You make some good points and I agree on many. I did watch the video. I almost puked. I posted on that thread about it. I still can't get that image out of my mind. I did not grow up in some "Leave it to Beaver" world. I was a short, really short kid, who was one of only 3 Jewish kids in a school of 800. I was taunted, teased, and harrassed from ages 10-15.I also pulled out hair on my head due to Trichtotillomania and developed a bald spot. The junior high kids loved that! But we'll keep those issues to my shrink. :-/ Quote:
I agree man. I am NOT NAIEVE. We need law enforcement. We need a military. We need to protect ourselves. But I think this "Rambo" approach of fighting terrorism IS NOT WORKING!!!! Bragging of your abilities of learning new and better ways to kill someone sounds shitty (at least to me). Sorry, yes I am a passivist, and I think violence is terrible (in any way). Being a passivist, and being anti-war DOES NOT MAKE ME ANTI-AMERICAN. We ALL have the rights and choices (though I feel they may go out the window soon) to think on our own. Quote:
I just don't understand. We go there for no reason. THE PRESIDENT BLANTANLTY LIED TO US A LITTLE OVER A YEAR AGO. Where are the fucking WMD??? Find those and then I will debate with you. Sending more troops is NOT the answer. Hey we all disagree and obviosuly you come from a much different background than me. My father served in the Army during the Vietnam conflict (is that what they say? Conflict?). Quote:
Great Gator. Let's nuke the whole world. I am sorry you are so angry. Nuke 'em till they glow?!?!!? Nuke who? ALL the IRAQI's? Nuke all the terrorists? See it ain't like Patten and WWII (and I THOROUGHLY believe that WWII was a just war), where armies wore uniforms and it was clear what side you were on. Now we have terrorist cells. So go on, round up all the terrorist cells, put em in say.....Wyoming, and Nuke em. Great solution. -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Leesa on May 14th, 2004, 3:40pm IMHO- I say again "pull the troops out and NUKE IT!!" One big parking lot!! Leesa, whos so mad I could spit fire and bite nails!!!! |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by ckelly181 on May 14th, 2004, 4:29pm on 05/14/04 at 09:48:33, thomas wrote:
Don't mean to be nasty here, but where do you get the idea that critical thinking isn't taught in schools? Would that be from ignorant public perception? When is the last time you've sat in a classroom? You can come into my classroom anytime. I can show you the levels of critical thought that my students use to analyze text. You can join in discussions that are led by students, not directed by the teacher. Contrary to popular belief, we aren't drill sergeants, stuffing in facts and testing the hell out of the little darlings, like Bush wants us to. We have to play the moronic NCLB game, but most of us are savvy enough to be able to handle that crap and really teach. I lean to the left, but I'll be damned if I force my beliefs on my students - college or middleschool. They can make up their own minds. Chris |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 14th, 2004, 4:55pm Quote:
From what I am learning, in Iraq, there are many nice people who want a better life. Statistically, it is a large number I am sure. They have never known anything else but the tyranny of Saddam, and now they are seeing the tyranny of Bush. Yes, there are the crazies. And many of these crazies WE have created by occupying their land. I agree, there are a lot of crazies there, but to blow up the country with nukes? Yeah I guess thats probably whats next on Dubyas agenda. Blow em all up?!?! C'mon! -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by BobG on May 14th, 2004, 5:09pm on 05/14/04 at 00:11:45, Ree wrote:
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Bob P on May 14th, 2004, 5:47pm Quote:
Now that one made me laugh!!!!!!!!!! It took me a while to figure out if you were serious or not. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by john123 on May 14th, 2004, 6:09pm on 05/14/04 at 16:55:17, HypnoticFreddy wrote:
[smiley=nono.gif] THEY were crazy long before that |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 14th, 2004, 8:12pm John123, just out of clusterview curiosity (and like Blue Meanies post....it's cool, we're all related here, people shouldn't take aim at others and be able to debate like adults), but can you define what you meant that "they were crazy? I am a little unclear. I guess I could give a definition. I guess I define crazies as "terrorist group of people, or some group, or who act alone and cruely commit horrific, violent murders, to kill civilian (and military) lives, children, brutally." In this modern case under the name of God and their book the Koran (I know there are a lot of spellings). These people are not taking things out of their bibles. They are falsely using their religion as basis for their political ideologies. They are using it as a shield. When it it is BS. Again I refer everyone to Daniel Pipes book "Militant Islam Reaaches America" This creates Fundamental Muslims or Islamists. Last I checked. Just look at the pie chart down this page. It illustrates some pie chart of the religions of the world: http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm OK, so Muslims make up about 20% of the world (from this source). Now the world population is 6+ billion (from 2003 cenus): http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw So there are 6 billion people on the globe. That means like a billion Muslims right? That's a lot of people. I also heard it is the highest growing religion. I have Muslim friends, co-workers, backgammon playing bud (Ali kicks my arse). These are people just like us. Whether you are a Christian or a Jew or a Marsian. Ali has a nice family. A beautiful wife, and 2 teenage girls who were very involved in school activities. Such a nice guy. We would smoke butts and drink really good tea and play gammon. Since I am a musician he showed me his musical instruments native to his homecountry (Iran). Are we really serious to want to mass-murder tens, hundreds, millions of people with nuclear bombs. Most of these people only know oppression. But is it the reason Bush stated to go to war? And is thatjustifiable? I also recall Nushi. A STUNNINGY beautiful Iranian here in America to get an advanced degree in chemistry. She was so nice. There was no signs of hate, and I can only imagine the happiness these people have in escaping Iran. Escaping the tyrannic government, the oppresion of women. We need more restraint, and give these f...ers their right to self-govern. When they start to attack other countries? It's time to step in. And I mean the world. The world steps in, hence WORLD War II. It is history repeating itself. Crusades, whatever, religion seems to play an awful lot of cause (or supposed cause) of war. WWII stands out as a war where people were invading other countries and it was a GREAT thing and I am PROUD that the USA military did what they did. those were so much more noble, reasonable, and justifiable reasons to go to war. Today.......it isn't. We were forced to be reactionary from the attacks on 9/11. Besides Pearl Harbor (which seemed to be targeted at military facilities), this has been the worst act of terror of violence or war, etc., that we have seen. And I mean for ALL of use. To the gentleman who stated he was 57. Well, again, I am 31 and am discovering my politcal beliefs for the 1st time. You gotta start somewhere. For starters I registered to vote. Am I mistake but didn't only 60% of the population voted in 200? Someone here can tell me. We all need to vote. We all, whether we are one way or the other (oh God. Oh no don't vote for Nader or an indepentant. You are giving votes to Bush!). Sad. These "third" party candidates don't have $500,000,000 for their campaigns. I mean why are two people always in these debates (OK, I remember Ross Perot, the billionaire). We need more than 2 people debating on how they intend to lead the country. In order to be elected as a President, one must have boatloads of cash. Though my reason to get involved with government was to find something, anything I CAN DO. Even on a very local scale. For the 1st time in my life, I want learn more about government. To politics. From an "involvement" standpoint. I am happy that instead of JUST saying I am anti-war and therefore in the eyes of many a "bad" Amercian and should move to Canada, I am getting involved in an organization that aims to do good things. Things that would make a depressed person feel good. And knowing you may help others. I still have no clue who I am voting for. Dennis Kucinch is a COOl candidate (a Democrat). What I DO KNOW is George. W. Bush and Co. CANNOT be in control anymore. They have lost complete control. Oh yeah....there is a shitload of oil in the Middle East. -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by jonny on May 14th, 2004, 8:23pm on 05/14/04 at 20:12:59, HypnoticFreddy wrote:
Unclear? They kill their woman if they show a bare ankle....WTF dont you understand about "Crazy"? And why do you have to type a novel to say nothing? .........................................jonny |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Slammy on May 14th, 2004, 8:28pm Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me that people against the war states that the only reason we went to war with Iraq was the threat of WMDs in Iraq. Bush NEVER said that. Bush authorized hostilities in Iraq when they continued to violate the UN sanctions, AND blatantly ignored our last chance deal to come clean. War is Hell! War is profane! War is ugly! But you can't always negotiate with those that are not rational. Look at Israel! They can't negotiate because their enemies want them extinct! These guys we are fighting just don't want us out of their land... they want us dead! If we are not there, they will come here! ( 9/11) ring a bell? The only reason this is dragging on is our intent to be careful in our efforts! That's what is increasing our casualties! Even with that, pacifists are screaming murder and baby-killers at our government! Quit worrying how we look to some nations! We are not the most-hated country! But we are the most envied! and with that jealousy comes hate! You know, if Gore was president, and HE went at it alone when The Security Council wimped out... I would High-five him! It's NOT about Democratic or Republican ideologies! It's about what is Right! Not what is right for Germany, or France, or Russia... but what is right for protecting the ideals of the US! Last time I check, none of those countries were looked upon as the defender of freedom in the world Slammy 8) |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by purpleydog on May 14th, 2004, 8:35pm on 05/14/04 at 20:23:18, jonny wrote:
The most to-the-point statement I've heard all day!! purpleydog |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by purpleydog on May 14th, 2004, 8:41pm on 05/14/04 at 20:28:15, Slammy wrote:
Slammy, I know YOU ain't been hidin out under no rocks! purpleydog |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Sean_C on May 14th, 2004, 8:43pm on 05/14/04 at 08:22:24, HypnoticFreddy wrote:
Scott, Honestly, I think you are way out of control. Your views make absolutely no sense to me. I read your post and constantly mutter profanity's under my breath. Do you even know what is going on in the world, or are you just playing the roll of I'm against the war, its wrong cause I said so. Scott, look at the big picture for once. Stand back and take a good hard look at whats going on in the world never mind the middle east. Where not picking on the world, where keeping the peace. Please just look at the big picture and not todays headline news. You might be surprised at what you'll find in the small print. Sean |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by HypnoticFreddy on May 14th, 2004, 8:45pm Sorry Sean, we are doing an awful job at "keeping the peace" -Scott |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by john123 on May 14th, 2004, 8:46pm on 05/14/04 at 20:12:59, HypnoticFreddy wrote:
man, you post loooong posts Sure I can tell you, better yet ley one of the russian veterans of their afgani war tell you, I know for a fact suicide was prefered to getting captured as a POW there. I would even call them primitive. |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Sean_C on May 14th, 2004, 9:14pm on 05/14/04 at 20:45:45, HypnoticFreddy wrote:
Scott, Are you sure? In your opinion, tell me where the world would be in 10 years say we didn't go to Afganistan or Iraq or Lebanon or Lybia, I can just go on. Growing up Kadaffi killed my best friends girlfriend of 10 years on Pan AM Flight 103 spilling her remains for a mile in Scottland. She was only 20. Not long after that Reagan put a missle in Kadaffi's kitchen window killing his family. Sounds crued but the terrorism from Lybia stopped didn't it. Bush almost did the same to Saddam at the beginning of this war, but unfortunately he missed by minutes. Terrorism has no friends Scott. It only has enemies. Sean |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by stevegeebe on May 14th, 2004, 9:41pm "Terrorism has no friends...It only has enemies." When they were threw with the Russians they said, "well..,what do we do now?" Perfect Sean. Steve G |
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Title: Re: This damn war! I've had it! sorry Post by Charlie on May 15th, 2004, 3:20am Quote:
We are a couple countries away from the enemy. All this breast pounding would look better if we showed up in the right place rather than plow around making sure that the next generation of Iraqis will have a reason to follow bin Laden and company over the edge. Madness. One cannot hope to win the hearts and minds of people who think we are satanic hypocrites and the creators of their perceived historic nemisis, Israel, by being so shortsighted. We have to do better but we are stuck there with not enough troops to do the job. We have screwed up big time over there. No one threw garlands and welcomed us as saviors as we rattled into Baghdad. What a surprise, what a mess. I agree about critical thinking but I'm not sure it's the schools. Those who don't do what humans are meant to do such as using our heads and question everything, are displaying an incredible and dangerous lack of critical thinking. Life is never simple. You cannot find answers by nodding your head. Charlie |
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