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        New Message Board Archives >> 2004 Cluster Headache Specific Posts >> Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
        
(Message started by: AnthonyT on Aug 14^th, 2004, 7:07pm)

Title: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by AnthonyT on Aug 14^th, 2004, 7:07pm

Wednesday night, as I was about to lay down, dreading that I'd be awakened in pain less than 2 hours later... something I had just read on the boards that morning came to mind. Someone mentioned they try to avoid sleeping on the side they get attacked on, because it seemed to help.

I knew this wouldn't work for me since I shift position a lot at night, alternating between left, right, or back of head. Then I thought of my hammock, which I sleep in when I'm too hot or have company over (so they can take the bed). Most of you will have to toss out the kind of hammock that comes to mind -- it's not a back-breaker! :) It's more like a fine net that I sleep sideways in (valley between the posts). This came to mind because it can support my head however I wish and without much pressure.

I was truly surprised and even gleeful that I woke up of my own accord in the morning -- no attack. I know the beast is tricky with establishing patterns only to break them though. I was curious to see if sleeping in my bed the next night resulted in an attack, but frankly I just didn't want one and hoped sleeping in the hammock helped, so I used the hammock again... and had another nice night of sleep.

So... I knew I had to try sleeping on my bed, but I was aware that my expectations could play a role at this point. Unfortunately it's hard to do a "blind test" with oneself. ;) I awoke a couple hours later with the familiar pain rapidly building. This time I felt like I'd done it to myself and I wished I hadn't, while I writhed around for a bit, then stumbled around my apartment ever-searching for that thing that will make the pain end (whatever it is, I never find it).

I've read some people finding possible correlation with sleep apnea and their attacks; there was the mention of sleeping on the opposite side as the attacks occur on... has anyone else had other experiences/correlations with posture or condition of sleep influencing the likelihood of attack?

I post this for two reasons: One, it may give someone else ideas to experiment with, potentially helping with nighttime attacks; two, I'd like more patterns to toss into the mix and see if I can more quickly determine if something about the change in sleep-conditions is helping me avoid attacks, and if so, what specifically it might be. I wonder if it might be some breathing/airflow thing. Maybe pressure on one side sets up some other chain of connections leading to increased chances of attack... I don't have much at this point.

This is posted in questing for my own benefit, and shared in case it has any value to someone else... as is my way. :)

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by E-Double on Aug 14^th, 2004, 7:32pm

The only thing that I have found that helps me sleep is melatonin.

It seems to have wiped out my night visits.
Take 6-9mg of mel about 1/2 hr. before I want to "attempt" to go to sleep and have been very lucky over the past month. The visits during the day are a whole different story.

Anyway, I too have read about the whole posturing thing and that hasn't help me at all.

I have sleep apnea as well but do nothing about it to be honest( couldn't tolerate wearing the CPAP throughout the night nor was I ready to have surgery) I tend to SNORE alot according to my fiance and she always truns me over to my right side. Stopos the snoring and increases the normal breathing, however this is my CH side.

So went to the melatonin... can sleep on my CH side and atleast be rested for the most part.

IT's a sick journey we go through and any way to help eachother by being there with a shoulder, ears or advice is needed and appreciated.

Good luck man!

E

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by AnthonyT on Aug 14^th, 2004, 9:01pm

Good to hear you're holding him at bay through the night!

I don't think I have apnea. I don't seem to have breathing problems (except when I awake in pain with one nostril shut down!), and apparently I don't snore. Maybe it's subtle. Hmmm... if I had a video recorder, one great thing about these is that the attacks are quite predictable.

What have you read of posture? I've tried doing some searches but they haven't turned up relevant stuff. Is it just the occasional comment like sleeping on the non-attack side? Or is there more? That's what I'm wondering...

I'll be sleeping in my hammock for now and hoping it works, but I want to know why it's helping (if it is). I know it's not some magic property of my hammock, because it only has one: taking up a lot of room! I wish the beast didn't have such a good poker face -- I'd like to know when he's bluffing, sweating, or laughing his head off. ;)

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by UN_SOLVED on Aug 14^th, 2004, 11:10pm

on 08/14/04 at 21:01:59, AnthonyT wrote:

What have you read of posture? I've tried doing some searches but they haven't turned up relevant stuff. Is it just the occasional comment like sleeping on the non-attack side? Or is there more? That's what I'm wondering...

What if the person (like me) could have attacks on either side ???

Unsolved <----- 80+% left sided attacks ... the rest on the right---->

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by Gator on Aug 15^th, 2004, 3:07am

Hi Anthony. Welcome to the website.

WHEN I can sleep, I sleep better sitting up - especially in my recliner. The attacks do seem to be somewhat less and once in a while, I even go through a night without an attack.

My attacks seem to ebb and flow so to speak. While I never go a whole day without any attacks, there are periods where the attacks are less painful/frequent and other periods where it's "Katy bar the door" every few hours.

A big problem for me is that when the ch ramps I lose the ability to sleep, even with sleeping pills or other medicines. Those times, I usually either yak in hsg chat until sometimes 4:30 in the morning or sit in my recliner and watch my fish tank until the next wave hits me and ride 'em cowboy!

Gator

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 15^th, 2004, 6:02am

on 08/14/04 at 19:07:26, AnthonyT wrote:

Wednesday night, as I was about to lay down, dreading that I'd be awakened in pain less than 2 hours later...

Anthony, I think posture does have something to do with the headaches. When I am getting heavy nighttime attacks I also use a recliner. My view of it is oversimplified I am sure, but to me it is just a gravity thing. Blood flow to the head is the enemy, if I am more inclined at least I am not promoting more blood flow.

Quote:

E-double wrote: I have sleep apnea as well but do nothing about it to be honest ( couldn't tolerate wearing the CPAP throughout the night nor was I ready to have surgery) I tend to SNORE alot according to my fiance and she always truns me over to my right side. Stopos the snoring and increases the normal breathing, however this is my CH side.

I attribute the diagnosis of sleep apnea, and learning to tolerate CPAP, with a vast improvement in my cluster profile. Prior to CPAP I was getting 3 -4 clusters per year. These seldom lasted less then two months, and one particularly brutal one lasted 8 months.

Since CPAP I have had a total of 6 cluster cycles in 13 years. The worst one of these lasted around 4 months.

There is some other aspects of treating the apnea that are important to consider related to the deleterious affects of sleep deprivation. I won't list them but they are serious and there are many.

Sleep apnea aof course, is not the causal root for cluster, but it can be a major aggravator (or triggers if you will) against which a cluster sufferer should seek treatment.

Incidentally, surgery is not a good solution because it is not guaranteed nor is it permanent. There are dental devices and even the anti snoring adhesive fixtures you can buy in the drugstore are fairly effective in my case. I carry a pack as a back-up should the CPAP go on the fritz.

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by AnthonyT on Aug 16^th, 2004, 2:53pm

Thank you for the input. Interesting that an elevated head seems to be common... mine isn't overly elevated, but maybe it is the factor for me, and the little difference is enough.

This is how things have gone for me so far... (I haven't been suffering much this cycle... hope that doesn't change).

Monday 'night': bed at 1am, up at 2am with the beast.
Tuesday 'night': bed at 1:30am, up at 3am with the beast.
Wednesday 'night': hammock at 12:30am, slept 'til 8; no beast.
Thursday 'night': hammock at 1am, slept 'til 7:30; no beast.
Friday 'night': bed at 2am, up at 3am with the beast. Moved to hammock to resume sleep after the dance.
Saturday 'night': hammock at 1:30am, up at 6am; no beast; was chilly so moved to bed to "warm up" after playing on the computer for a bit. Fell asleep just before 8am, awoke to a mild beast a little after 9.
Sunday 'night': hammock at 12:30am, awoke rested at 8am.

This pattern seems to be strong for me... Bed -> beast follows in 1-2h.

I'm now hunting down options for biometric sensor-interface cards for a computer. I'm interested to see whether I do have breathing changes, among other things of general interest.

I want to know what the significant factor is between me being in bed or hammock. There are a number of differences: in hammock, temperature cannot rise as high, since I am in a "bubble" where excess heat will escape beneath me through the netting. My posture is different. Pressure is distributed fairly even. And my butt is lowest, higher than my head -- though my feet are highest.

Maybe it is blood pressure in cranium that pushes me "over the threshold"... though my head is not elevated much higher than my arse. Maybe my butt is taking on enough blood from legs and head... :P

I did more reading on sleep apnea and found there is a variant other than the obstructed (snoring one): central sleep apnea. So I'm not discounting this possibility as much as I was before (since I apparently don't snore). Overall, I'm just more curious about my sleep patterns now.

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by Biker on Aug 16^th, 2004, 6:00pm

I get the pain in my left side. If I wake at night, most of the time, I have rolled over to my left side. Sometimes, it doesnt matter what side I am on, but left sided sleeping is pretty much inviting myself to spend some painfull time in the dark.

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by TxBasslady on Aug 17^th, 2004, 11:49pm

I have to sleep elevated...either propped on pillows on the sofa, or in the recliner.

I also take the Melatonin.....it is a miracle drug for me!!
I have had to up the Melatonin a bit over the last few days.....the beast is knockin' on my door!! Been sleeping on the sofa......last night I decided to sleep in the bed.....big bad mistake!!!! 3:55 this a.m., I was wishin I had stayed on the sofa [smiley=huh.gif]

Elevated is good for me......and I know there are several here that do the same.

PF vibes,

Jean

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by AnthonyT on Aug 18^th, 2004, 12:53am

This is interesting. This cycle I have only been getting full-on attacks related to sleep. And I hadn't realized many others had attacks so tightly bound to their situation at sleep.

I'm feeling like this cycle is "light" for me, and somehow the conditions present when I am sleeping in bed are conducive to "amplifying" the problem. It's like I could breeze through this cycle "narrowly escaping" if I am careful (Hopefully I'm not inviting disaster by saying so!). Whereas prior cycles I was deeply entrenched enough that I was attacked through the day, and lucky if they could be aborted. The sleep relation might have still been there, but been inconsequential because the beast was keeping me close company anyway -- just the periodic fluctuations due to hypothalamus was enough to push me over.

Thanks all for sharing!

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by don on Aug 19^th, 2004, 10:24am

If I thought thaty sleeping with both legs around my neck while hanging upside down from a Totem Pole would help I would do it. Truth is it doesn't seem to matter.

If I'm going to get hit then I'm going to get hit.

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 21^st, 2004, 6:49am

on 08/18/04 at 00:53:27, AnthonyT wrote:

This is interesting. This cycle I have only been getting full-on attacks related to sleep. And I hadn't realized many others had attacks so tightly bound to their situation at sleep.

Well here is some "poop" on the topic:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10767655&dopt=Abstract

http://www.respiratoryreviews.com/sep00/rr_sep00_clusterheadaches.html

http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/sleepdisorders/Snoring_apnea_cluster.htm

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/963337560.html

and finally this one from OUCH:
http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/general/apnea.htm

Title: Re: Influence of posture/situation during sleep?
Post by AnthonyT on Aug 21^st, 2004, 9:56am

Thanks ex_pat_asia. I think there may be similar correlation for me -- I may be suffering apneas. I'm looking into this further.

Two nights ago I got hit harder... sleep for an hour; bam! Get to sleep two hours later, and again after an hour: bam! And yesterday was one of the rollercoaster rides kip5-8 from 2am until about 6pm. I fought for every hour of sleep (and that is the most I could get in one go).