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Title: CH and Anxiety! Post by alleyoop on Aug 11th, 2004, 2:17pm While doing a search for Lilly (the 3 yr. old with CH), I came across this. I found it interesting, as may some of you (although being chronic, am not sure if or how it would apply to me.) http://www.vh.org/adult/patient/psychiatry/prose/clusterheadaches.html |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 2:35pm on 08/11/04 at 14:17:24, alleyoop wrote:
Damn it!!!!!!! There goes my thesis!!!! I've said this over and over ;) Seriously.... With such a potent aversive that we are subjected to (the attacks) Anxiety certainly develops. WE wind up being afraid to go into the public, thus effecting our lives: some can't work, some have problems with their relationships. All because a big part of us is lost and and many succumb to the fear. It takes a while to either get used to things or learn how to go about your daily life. A big education in itself. I'm going to make a bold statement..... From a behavioral standpoint how we may develop anxiety: Episodics might have this one over Chronics. In the sense that as a chronic (unfortunately) you kinda know "this is how it is" As an episodic, one has the fear of becoming chronic, the changes from cycle to cycle in duration and intensities, having to sometimes start all over each cycle. This is an "intermittent negative reinforcement trap" A negative reinforcer by definition is an aversive stimulus that when removed will increase the likelihood of a behavior reoccurring in it's presence. So by having punishment(the aversive CH) intermittently placed upon us, we can actually have behaviors that are strengthened : don't work. don't go out, avoid this avoid that.... Along with the Condtioned Emotional Responding that goes along with the definition of anxiety: increased heart rate, sweats, shakes, etc. You become trapped === Anxiety disorder all stemming from the fucking CH!!!! That felt good to think again :) Been a rough day (stayed home in fear fo having attack b/c they seem to be back after a 2 week hiatus) Anyway, I will send my card to anyone who wants LOL Eric |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 11th, 2004, 2:46pm Saying CH might cause anxiety is like saying a bomb might create a sound. ::) |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 3:02pm on 08/11/04 at 14:46:24, Superpain wrote:
No shit !! [smiley=laugh.gif] It sounds easy to say this and the article was written or the study is being conducted by Psychiatrists/ MD's. From a medical standpoint it really could be as simple as : You cure CH you will cure Anxiety associated with it. The problem is that we have no cure and many of the treatments don't work for some and those that do work for us don't always!!! With Anxiety disorders we can treat using CBT(cognitive behavior therapy) / RET(Rational Emotive therapy). Essentially reconditioning or desensitising a person to the aversive stimuli. How the hell can you desensitize one to CH.. At this point we can't. Not like Butterflies, or rodents, any other thing that people develop anxiety over! Atleast those you can systematically desensitize( gradually "show" a person that not harmful) or Implosion therapy being thrust into enormous amounts of the stimuli that after your heart attack you realize no big deal ;;D We're kinda fucked unfortunately. What we can do is try to relax if this is possible not bug out. (for me almost impossible but I'm better at helping others than myself) Try to realize that it will come to an end at some point and know how to kick its ass!! This sucks!!!!! Enjoy talking about it though. Feel like I'm working and took my mind off the pain for now. Peace & can always pop a Xanax to alleviate the anxious feeling ;) but only temporay :( Eric |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by alleyoop on Aug 11th, 2004, 3:02pm on 08/11/04 at 14:46:24, Superpain wrote:
True, but they're saying (and Eric) that it may not be a one-way street, i.e. anxiety may be perpetuating CH (at least, that was my take on it). .............................................alley |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 3:08pm on 08/11/04 at 15:02:50, alleyoop wrote:
I don't know... I'm kinda anxious right now. To abort or not too? that's the question for me right now... To weak for meds (ithink) but wondering if it's gonna morph!! yikes... Maybe I'll tak e a Xanax and chill cause ya never know. ;) |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 11th, 2004, 3:12pm on 08/11/04 at 15:02:50, alleyoop wrote:
That's like saying the "boom" caused the explosion. I don't buy it for a minute. If anxiety were a trigger I'd never stop getting hit. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by IndianaJohn on Aug 11th, 2004, 4:23pm many times I have thought about getting a Ch, and then WHAM! I got one. I think the anxiety does play a role. I try not to think about the next Ch so as not to set myself up for one. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 4:32pm I don't necessarily think anxiety is a trigger but with the increase in blood pressure and body temperature it very well could be?? I definitely think CH causes anxiety!! Who knows... The problem is that unfortunately we can't avoid it. YET! E |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by IndianaJohn on Aug 11th, 2004, 4:36pm I have even tried valium to control anxiety. Didn't work worth a shit. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 4:42pm on 08/11/04 at 16:36:50, IndianaJohn wrote:
When I was peaking Xanax definitely took the edge off. That's all it's really gonna do other than knock ya out if you take higher dosages... I take a very low dosage just to ease me a bit. Like now I'm a bit calmer ;) |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 11th, 2004, 5:11pm I still think anxiety is a symptom... And I fuckin LOVE xanax wether I'm in or out of cycle... But I'm just a high anxiety kind of person. Speaking of which... I'm out as of last night. SHIT! Time to go to Mexico I guess... |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 5:30pm Xanax is pretty kick ass! |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by kimh on Aug 11th, 2004, 6:02pm Words of wisdom from kim: keep it simple stupid. I know. I blow my own sox off sumtimes. Anyhow, just thought i'd let ya'll know i tried a xanax the other day ;;D I could not get over how absolutely HAPPY i was and how absolutely FUNNY everything i said was and life was just so absolutely WONDERFUL. Good thing i don't have them puppies layin around to pop at my leisure 8) Egads. Guess ole kimmer cawt a buzz ;;D Gheeeeeeeez! what were we tawkin about? ..................oh yeah anxiety. Life's a bitch and then ya die. And no i'm not currently popping pills ;;D PS: Smart people hate me ;;D |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 6:09pm on 08/11/04 at 18:02:34, kimh wrote:
Ya want more ;) lol now i feel like a http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_9_1.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_5_24.gif the local pusher |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by IndianaJohn on Aug 11th, 2004, 6:13pm Well now.....gotta get me some of that shit fo' sure...maybe life will be just a little bit better.... |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 6:18pm on 08/11/04 at 18:13:08, IndianaJohn wrote:
I never experienced what Kim has but definitely eases the jitters http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_5_24.gif = http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_5_134.gif at lesat enough so that I can battle Funny lady E |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 11th, 2004, 6:29pm on 08/11/04 at 18:13:08, IndianaJohn wrote:
It doesn't make life "better", it just makes you stop worrying about the stupid shit, so it doesn't seem so bad. So if perception is reality... I guess it does make life "better"... :D |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 11th, 2004, 6:30pm And "yes" I'd like some please... ;;D |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 11th, 2004, 7:01pm Oprah has this chick on right now that is talking about being an "addict"... They're going on and on about recovery and relapses, etc. And I'm wondering what it is she's addicted to... Oxycontin? Cocaine? Meth? No. Xanax... ::) I agree it can be habit forming. But as a recovering addict of "real" drugs, I can't help but find her plight somewhat overblown and trivial. I don't know... Maybe I'm affected differently. Maybe it's because I have a shitload of anxiety pretty much all the time. [smiley=huh.gif] But I'm out of xanax right now. And as much as it sux, it's not going to affect my life detrimentally one way or another. I may be more anxious and stressed. I may not sleep as well. But it's not like I'm gonna freak out or anything... They're just making it sooo dramatic. ::) There's a difference in habit forming and addictive. If she has this much problem with xanax, she'd be dead if she were me. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 11th, 2004, 7:52pm on 08/11/04 at 19:01:13, Superpain wrote:
I completely agree!!!!!!!!!!! Some people make so much of addiction and of course it is a problem but many can overcome and be totally fine!! I am a statsitic! I had a true addiction to booze (partied on many a fun stuff but k-hol was the only one which developed a problem) I dove head first into a bottle of Yukon Jack (after we found one of our fraternity brothers dead in the living room from a shot gun blast to the head) and didnt come out for a couple of years... Wake up with the fever, shakes and sweats and the only thing that is going to make that go away is another drink!! Thus addiction... These days I can actually have a drink or 7 and know when to quit. I have never relapsed over the past 8 years!!! People are going to deal with trauma, anxiety etc. in many ways some may be harmful to themselves and others may not. For this woman on Oprah to have a problem with Xanax of all drugs.... Come on!!!!!!!! Yes it can be addicting but not nearly as much as most heavy narcotics. Take it light, Eric |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by IndianaJohn on Aug 11th, 2004, 8:22pm Another 2cents worth...I seem to recall that for people that are experiencing chronic pain, addiction may not always oocur. Case in point. My wife had a collapsed L5/S1 disc (the last and biggest disc at the base of your spine) and she was on vicodens for at 6 to 7 months . She never developed an addiction and when the time came was able to go without. Addiction works in diffferent ways in all of us I guess but I seem to recall hearing evidence that people in severe pain are not as suseptible as others might think. I have had my own addiction problems in the past and made it through with alot of out patient therapy. For what it's worth...... |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Karla on Aug 11th, 2004, 10:30pm I take xanax for anxiety due to clusters have for a couple of years now. Plus my antidepressent is due to depression and anxiety caused by ch. lovely illness we suffer from. :( |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 12th, 2004, 4:00am Eric, xanax is not addicting. It's habit forming for some... Difference is habit forming = if you've got it around, you'll do it even if you may not need it. Addicted = you're gonna do it even if you don't have it around. Habit forming= you're bummed when you run out... Addicted = you are going to experience withdrawl symptoms when you run out, not only psychological but physical as well. ie; heroin, you may DIE without it. That is addicted. Heroin is the one drug I've never done intentionally. Intentionally means I've intentionally stayed away from it, but it also means I've unintentionally taken it when it was in X... Commonly known as "smack tabs". I didn't develop a life threatening addiction to these tabs, but I did do enough to feel physical withdrawls. I've been addicted to speed, coke (in all forms of use), occasionally with situations like bad teeth I've developed dependency on narcs... Let's see... What else is there? Alcohol... I'd say so, but not so bad that it controls me or ruins my life. Basically, if it's addictive I've been addicted to it. And I can admit that I have a xanax habit... I usually take a bar about every night, and maybe a half of one (1mg) during some days, or whenever I get anxiety basically... Without it after months (yrs on and off) of taking it will I have any psychological withdrawl? Possibly... Is it going to make me sick? No.... Am I gonna do ANYTHING to get it? NO. Am I gonna worry about it? No... I'll just worry about everything else in the meantime. [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=crackup.gif] It helps overcome anxiety in a way nothing else does. I have alot of anxiety because of the way my brain works. I love it, finding relief! I mean WTF!? How do you get to the point you are on Oprah telling your sob story about being addicted to xanax and how it's "ruined" your life!? They must've been mormon or something. ::) What's the worst that could happen? You pass out at a family gathering? I guess driving's not a good idea... I do tend to break alot of shit on accident when I'm xan'd out... That's about as bad as it get's for me. Otherwise I'm a much nicer person to be around for the most part. Less stress, no anxiety, no temper, patience is in abundance.... [smiley=huh.gif] I don't get it. Opioids, meth, coke? Yes, I can understand. Xanax ruined your life? How the hell did that happen? That's like saying a popsicle ruined your day in July. ::) |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by synergy2120 on Aug 12th, 2004, 4:49am Sorry for being thick guys! - Marcs takes valium (we get it on black market - not GP) to help sometimes. Is that the same as xanax? A lot of our drugs are called different things over here and i was just wondering if xanax and valium are one and the same? cheers sarah xx |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 12th, 2004, 5:03am No they are not. Valium is "diazapam", xanax is "alprazolam"... They are loosely speaking close to each other, but I for one don't find much relief with valium... They just make me sleepy. Xanax just makes the anxiety and over bearing "worried feeling" slip away. Not that they won't make you a bit sleepy too... ;) [smiley=laugh.gif] Actually they will knock you out with a higher than "accustomed to" dosage, but the dreams are so good! :D Closely related drugs but quite different effects, for me at least. 2 thumbs up for xanax. 1 up and 1 down for valium. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 12th, 2004, 5:07am BTW, I've never been to a black market... What's it like. ;;D Fortunately Mexico is 2hrs away from here. It's legal to buy there. Not so legal to transport back here.... :-/ But easy and cheap nonetheless. You can get imitrex dirt cheap to! |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by synergy2120 on Aug 12th, 2004, 5:14am [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif] I cant go into too much detail - but we get a lot of our stuff for marc from a next door neightbour (who is a close and personal friend)! She only gives marc valium every now he then because she doesnt want him having it a lot. It sometimes to help with the attacks and marc is taking it a high doseages - and it doesnt even make him sleepy. I dont even think morphine would knock marc out - when his gp gave him a anti-depres that would help him sleep i just laughed!!! THAT WONT WORK!!! well not woth marc anyway. Ive spoken to marc about the valium (we dont have to pay for it - which is good) because im convinced that it is making the beast more aggresive. He says it can give him relief - thats enough for me. If it puts a smile on his face - even for 20 mins - then im cool with it!! |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by synergy2120 on Aug 12th, 2004, 5:16am GOD - i just read my last post and i sound like a right druggie!!! I would just like to add that i only smoke ciggs and valium and weed is the only thing marc gets from our friend!!!! [smiley=laugh.gif] |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 12th, 2004, 5:27am I bet the weed is making the beast more agressive. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 12th, 2004, 7:35am Quote:
Can we become physiologically dependent on Xanax? Maybe not... Ofcourse there is a difference between Xanax and that of opioids or emphetamines, cocaine, even cigarettes. All of which some become addicted to and some don't. Here's what becomes interesting; and I totally agree with you (about the chemistry of the drugs), however... When one develops a habit = a routine/ behavior that is continuously reinforced, the likelihood of the behavior(taking Xanax) increases when certain stimulus are present...We'll call the stimulus anxiety. So Xanax taking behavior increases (Basic principle of Reinforcement) Any behavior that has been on a continuous schedule of reinforcement is more prone to "Extinction" (witholding reinforcement form a previously reinforced behavior)of which when occurs people's behavior becomes more persistent then variable then finally decreases. During the variability you develop CER (Conditioned emotional Responding= increase body temp, sweats, inc. BP/HR) this equates to Anxiety. Therefore, though one may not become physically addicted to the drug, one may develop physiological symptoms that may present similar. So if we started with a bit of anxiety and then it increases to full blown anxiety... which could eventually go away. This could loosely speaking be comperable to detox. So if the CER is so intolerable like when someone is detoxing becomes so intolerable.... So it's a catch 22 physiologically the increase in Anxiety May "teach" someone to exhibit behaviors of an addict. The need to seek or seeking out. Just theory man, there are additional variables like Establishing Operations but we will get into that in our next class in Behavior Analysis. I'm enjoying this Chris. How about you? :) |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by floridian on Aug 12th, 2004, 8:25am Some experience with xanax for my panic disorder - which involved siezure like changes, not just 'a little worry.' 1) xanax is effective 2) regular use of benzodiazepines like xanax probably lead to physical dependency 3) most people with severe anxiety disorder / panic disorder use benzodiazepines rationally, taking as little as needed to function normally. There are several natural benzo-like compounds in scullcap and passionflower. Although they block anxiety as well as benzo drugs, they do not typically cause the loss of coordination and memory impairment typical of benzos. Some indications that these do not lead to dependency, although I think that may be a premature conclusion. (Heroin was developed as a non-addicting alternative to morphine!) Some terms to search pubmed for: scutellaria passiflora amentoflavone benzoflavone |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 12th, 2004, 1:04pm on 08/12/04 at 05:07:39, Superpain wrote:
You have peaked my interest. Where I live there is no Trex available...only the pill form. No injection or nasal spray. I am heading to the U.S. for a combo business/R&R in a few weeks. Home is about four hours from Tiajuana. Is the trex pricing cheap enough to make the drive down worth it? Will I be able to stock up or do they only honor Rx's? My hope is to get a stockpile to bring back when I return. Price, regulations, and baggage space are my enemy. Any advice welcome. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 12th, 2004, 3:48pm You can buy as much as you want. However, do not get caught bringing it back. Pill form is readily available at most all of the farmacia's. Injections are harder to find, but I understand they're about $20 for a statdose refill, and they are sold under the "imigran" name. It is possible that you may need a script for the injections unless you know of a farmacia that will break the rules, just as you do for xanax. But even if you need a script, they will show you where the Doc's office is, sometimes right next door... And I think the going rate for a script is $20. Eric, I'm gonna have to read back over your post after my second cup of coffee. 8) |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 12th, 2004, 3:57pm However, for custom's purposes I'd consider obtaining a script from an American doc to carry with you when heading back. As long as you have a script for even 1 pack of shot's you should be OK carrying as many as you want. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 12th, 2004, 4:01pm on 08/12/04 at 08:25:04, floridian wrote:
I don't get seizure symptoms, but I do have attacks where it feels like I can't get enough oxygen, like I can't catch my breath, I have a hard time speaking, sweating etc... Typical panic attack I'd say. Otherwise my anxiety consists of my mind darting around uncontrollably worrying about everything all at once, even if there's nothing to worry about. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by lionsound on Aug 13th, 2004, 5:17pm I've been keeping tabs on, but avoiding posting on this thread because this is exactly me. CH and anxiety. I wouldn't even know where to begin because it scares me and makes me sad. At least I'm not the only one. Thank you, all of you for this thread. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Aug 15th, 2004, 10:05am I didn't reread from the beginning... I know this has been discussed elsewhere, well I know I was involved in some of the conversations. Has anyone HERE (I guess the 4-5 of us who have been on this thread) gone for CBT/ RET??? Not for the CH but for the anxiety associated with?? anywho......always here for ya guys/gals! E |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 17th, 2004, 7:35pm Actually I am having some physical symptoms... Trouble sleeping, but I'm OK after 8 hrs instead of 12hrs... Teeth are a little tender from clenching my jaws so much. And pretty much everything tastes like shit. >:( Especially beer. >:( And of course quite a bit of tension and anxiety. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by thebbz on Aug 17th, 2004, 8:51pm Lorazapam is in the same family as xanax. Tranquilizer. Xanax cut episode rate in half for me. Doc says they are very addictive, the neuro says " What is worse being addicted to Xanax or CH?" I'll take the Xanax . Still have1 to 2 episodes a year. But that's better than 4. I can guess a bit closer when the beast will arrive. I still think the solstice has something to do with it. Stress is still a big trigger, but the Xanax reduces the ammo!!! Happy,Happy, Hakuna Matada!! BB |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by Superpain on Aug 18th, 2004, 3:36am Your doc actually said " What is worse being addicted to Xanax or CH?" !? If he ever says that again pinch his nipple then kick him in the nuts as hard as you can! And ask him which is worse! ;) |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by eddie on Aug 18th, 2004, 4:23am xanax is the only thing that keeps me from losing it & getting a little rest 1mg 2 times a day sunday i had to take 3 of them. human nature is that we all are addicted to somthing even your local preacher or teacher everyone needs or wants somthing my opinion. as long as you dont abuse it i guess its ok. one thing i dont need or want is a beast clawing at my #*#^! head . here latlely has been rough for me xanax does help. BUT NO IT DOES NOT RELIEVE PAIN |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by floridian on Aug 18th, 2004, 8:42am on 08/17/04 at 20:51:08, thebbz wrote:
Sympathetic with you on that - I think some of us might be pushed to the CH edge by anxiety, though anxiety isn't the cause. My panic attacks stopped when I went on a low carb diet ... my sugar metabolism is messed up. GABA or (GABA drugs like the benzos) are critical not only in anxiety, but also in normal function of the pancreas. In my case, I think my pancreas would over-secrete insulin in response to a sugary diet and/or stress. The result was severe panic attacks. I'm no longer on a strict low carb diet, but when I feel the anxiety building, I make a point to cut out all sugar and most starch. Within a day I feel normal again. Occassional scullcap tea is enough - no more xanax for me. Benzodiazepines are effective, but I look at them as a transition med - they give temporary relief that allowed me to look beyond the symptoms to address the underlying issues, and then they weren't needed. |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by alleyoop on Aug 18th, 2004, 1:28pm I've heard of skullcap tea b4 on these boards, but I've never seen it in stores. Do you have to order this tea, or what? ............................................alley |
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Title: Re: CH and Anxiety! Post by E-Double on Sep 18th, 2004, 11:40am Get past the joking and there is some decent info. Since seeing that a whole new thread on this subject I figured I'd bump this for a resource/opinions/etc. Be well all, E |
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