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        New Message Board Archives >> 2004 Cluster Headache Specific Posts >> Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
        
(Message started by: ex_pat_asia on Aug 8^th, 2004, 3:33am)

Title: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 8^th, 2004, 3:33am

Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief

I haven't seen this come up here so here is a little background.

Many years ago, I cannot remember how or why, I began to apply pressure to the carotid artery at the onset of an attack. This had (and has) some surprising results. Often I have been able to stop the attack in its feet. Other times it was enough to buy some time for the trex or the Oxy to start working.

It sounds crazy. One Dr. I mentioned this to asked me what I did when I awoke on the floor. Sadly, he was dismissive and didn't listen.

If you look at the following two pics it isn't hard to deduce why this might work as another strategy for us. Clearly if we impede the blood flow we interupt the fuel supply line to our pain receptors.

http://www.bigdawgblog.com/t-nerve_carotid.gif

Wondering if anyone else has used this or is familiar with it.?

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by IndianaJohn on Aug 8^th, 2004, 3:42am

I've never tried it, but I have to wonder if it's safe for people on verap (a bp med).

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by synergy2120 on Aug 8^th, 2004, 4:15am

Marc applies pressure to his temple - It makes the pain sharper but can stop an attack dead or just make it go quicker, but then sometimes it doesnt help at all.While he puts pressure on the temple he rubs the area in a circular motion.
But with everything - one things works for one person but not the other!

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by pubgirl on Aug 8^th, 2004, 5:55am

I know a sufferer who applies pressure to his carotid until he passes out. When he comes round his attack has gone.

Trouble is, when you block the blood supply to your brain you risk death or brain damage. Strikes me as probably the most stupid, irresponsible, dangerous and utterly ridiculous thing you could do unless you fancy spending the rest of your life pissing in a nappy/diaper and being fed by your relatives
>:(

Wendy

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by synergy2120 on Aug 8^th, 2004, 6:12am

Hello Wendy - think ive just spoken to you on the OUCK.uk website?
MArc doesnt hold it till he passes out he just gently masages it - but as i said it makes the pain a lot sharper.
When marc is having a KIP10 he puts so much pressure on his temple that i do have to force him to stop as it is very dangerous.
Im surprised he hasnt crushed his skull with the amount of pressure he applies sometimes.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by E-Double on Aug 8^th, 2004, 7:05am

on 08/08/04 at 05:55:48, pubgirl wrote:

I think we all might put massive pressure or massage on our temple area or neck as well.
Definitely makes me more comfortable during mild hits or really uncomfortable shadows.
Like now for instance I rubbing unti.. I
Fallllllllllll k;lkll,/.
asleeeeeeepppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppdlfsdfk

Nah! too dangerous but seriously comforting for what ever the reason.

PFD's

E

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by Donna H. on Aug 8^th, 2004, 7:46am

Carotid massage is a very dangerous and sometimes life threatening practice.

The hospital where I work will NOT allow even RN's to do this vagal maneuver.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by pubgirl on Aug 8^th, 2004, 7:54am

Hi Sarah

yes, it is the same person. I am known as WTB or Wendy the Brit or pubgirlor "Hooter" here. I didn't read into what you posted that your hubby was doing anything dangerous, it was just a good opportunity to try and stop the people who do more extreme things with their carotids doing what they do, and there are a few! We all do silly stuff when in agony, but blocking the blood supply to the brain is amongst the worst

Wendy

edited only for spelling

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by IndianaJohn on Aug 8^th, 2004, 8:14am

Well, I tried it. Maybe I didn't do it correctly, but it made the pain worse. I too massage my areas on my head that hurt, usually it helps a little. Especailly my forehead, which is a location that always hurts during a CH. Sometimes it's nothing more than something to do instead of banging my head into a bloody stump.

PFDAN to All

John

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 8^th, 2004, 8:18am

on 08/08/04 at 05:55:48, pubgirl wrote:

I know a sufferer who applies pressure to his carotid until he passes out. When he comes round his attack has gone.
Wendy

on 08/08/04 at 05:55:48, pubgirl wrote:

I know a sufferer who applies pressure to his carotid until he passes out. When he comes round his attack has gone.

I agree with your remarks if you are talking about the idiot that clamps down until he passes out. However, if your remarks were aimed at me then let me take an opportunity to be more specific. First of all, the method that I use is is to apply a slow steady, light pressure on the carotid (same side as headache) at the earliest possible sign. I use my thumb to do this. It is a technique that I have discussed with three drs. to be exact. None of them expressed any concern about brain damage in spite of your rash assumption. The reason that I discussed it with them had to do with an entirely different concern. The attacks come often enough that I began to worry about weakening the integrity of the vessel wall. The answer I received, in one case from a vascular surgeon, is that I would not pose any danger of that given the demonstration that I gave him. I am not encouraging this for anyone. I am simply stating that it has been a tool of mine...and was wondering if anyone else knew of it or had tried it.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by synergy2120 on Aug 8^th, 2004, 8:21am

Thats ok!
I must admit i have to be careful with marc. When he has a kip10 i have to stop him from hurting himself. He sometimes get so bad that he punches he legs or thumps his hands against the wall or floor to try and make something else in his body hurt to take away the pain from his head.
There are times when i have had to let him do it a little bit as there is no stopping him but thankfully he doesnt do it anymore.
At the beginning he used to smack his head against the floor or wall and i would have to physically restrain him (im only 4ft 11 and very tiny so its not easy)!

marc broke his elbow last year after he smashed it against a wall. When we told the nurse why he did it she look at us as if we were insane and said

"no headache is that bad love - you should try living with migranes" - marc had to stop me from hitting her! he said there is no point trying to explain to people who are too ignorant to understand.

I can understand why marc hurts himself sometimes and why other sufferers sometimes do stupid things but that is another job for us supporters - to stop them damaging themselves even further.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by IndianaJohn on Aug 8^th, 2004, 8:27am

Quote:

"no headache is that bad love - you should try living with migranes" - marc had to stop me from hitting her! he said there is no point trying to explain to people who are too ignorant to understand.

For me that's one of the most infuriating things about htis condition. When so called medical professional willnot even entertain the concept of CH. Marc is right, but sometimes you still have to try. If for no other reason than to help the next poor soul that has to deal with these idiots.

God Bless you Sarah and your family!

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by IndianaJohn on Aug 8^th, 2004, 8:28am

ya know, I haven't been able to type worth a shit since this cycle started..lol...I read that post twice before posting!

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 8^th, 2004, 8:39am

on 08/08/04 at 07:46:52, Donna H. wrote:

Carotid massage is a very dangerous and sometimes life threatening practice.

The hospital where I work will NOT allow even RN's to do this vagal maneuver.

Donna,
Why do you refer to the carotid massage as a "vagal" manuever. I am aware that Vagal stimulation is pursued as a therapy for depression. How does this relate to the carotid and the use of pressure as I outlined.

Incidentally, I should add another bit of empirical data here...the technique simply doesn't work when I am deep into a full scale cycle. It seems to only work on one-off attacks that occur infrequently between cycles.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by pubgirl on Aug 8^th, 2004, 11:35am

ex-pat asia
I was not talking about you but if the cap fits! This sufferer is in the UK and as I clearly stated he blocks the blood supply to his brain until he is rendered unconscious. This is insane behaviour and anyone here who advocates it is beyond irresponsible and deserves any flaming they get.

Having said that, your theory about blocking the fuel supply line to your pain receptors also stinks. You are decreasing the blood supply to your brain in a very crude way, which is dangerous and stupid.
Try researching all the people who have died doing this in the name of auto-eroticism and see how safe it is.

Wendy

by the way, empirical data is an appropriate phrase in this context. If you use "empiric" as a noun, one of its meanings in medicine is a quack or charlatan.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by floridian on Aug 8^th, 2004, 2:08pm

I would be very reluctant to do anything that cuts off blood flow to the head. I'm not sure about any subtle differences in what people are trying to describe, but a gut feeling tells me that anti-oxygen therapy is not as good as oxygen therapy, and maybe dangerous if not done exactly right.

Quote:

"no headache is that bad love - you should try living with migranes" -

Sounds like some Llap-Goch was in order.

http://www.brookroad.org.uk/taffnet/Light/master.gif

http://www.ppsa.com/gif/llap01.gif

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by Kris_in_SJ on Aug 8^th, 2004, 8:29pm

Some research has shown that MILD pressure applied to the carotid artery (on the side of the pain) can alleviate an attack for some people. Mild pressure does not mean cutting off the blood supply totally, but ... been there and done it ... helped for a nanosecond then made it worse - same with pressing on the temporal artery.

I don't get the vagal response thing either though. Can someone clarify?

Kris

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by pubgirl on Aug 8^th, 2004, 9:01pm

Only know of Vagal nerve stimulation in relation to epilepsy or seizures, not sure what the connection is here [smiley=huh.gif]

Wendy

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 8^th, 2004, 11:50pm

I found the following:

"Vagal" manuevers are apparently sometimes used in the case of supraventricular arrhythmias. (Fast heart beat).

"Mild arrhythmias, such as isolated premature beats, may require no treatment. A few people, however, may have arrhythmias that become dangerous and require immediate, perhaps prolonged, treatment. In most cases, you might attempt the following simple maneuvers, called vagal maneuvers, to assist your body in slowing your heart rate.
Vagal maneuvers: Coughing, holding your breath, immersing the face in cold water, and tensing your muscles as if having a bowel movement are called vagal maneuvers because they increase the tone of the vagus nerve on your heart. Increased vagal tone stimulates release of substances that decrease your heart rate, which can break the abnormal electrical circuit.

Carotid massage: Carotid massage involves gently pressing and rubbing your carotid sinus, located in your neck just under the angle of your jaw. Carotid massage can release chemicals to slow your heart rate. This step is generally limited to young, healthy people because older people are at risk of stroke. You will be connected to a heart monitor because the decrease in heart rate can be dramatic."

More detail available at the following: http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/11183-6.asp

There clearly could be a connection between carotid massage and my experience insofar as cluster is concerned. One of the results of verapamil is the slowing of the heart. Cluster is a type of "vascular" headache.
However when I do this manuever, I am not hooked up to a cardiograph, I am not under medical supervision, and I am definitely not a young person. The caution in the linked article is compelling, the wiser and more helpful posters here are helpful. I plan to cease the manuever until I have learned a great deal more. I suspect my query will lead to deciding this is not a good practice for Clusterheads. I am glad I brought this up and am glad that one poster mentioned the term "vagal". That gave me the string to follow to find info that was helpful.

I am not eager to condone risky behavior but I still think there is a line of query worth pursuing further here, at least to satisfy my curiosity.

One Personal Note: I am unwilling to give any credence to vituperative remarks on this or any board. Remarks about "peeing in a diaper", sobriquets like "stupid" etc. are counter productive here. They carry no influence with me whatsoever and only raise a gorge of disgust to be vented into the place they deserve.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by pubgirl on Aug 9^th, 2004, 2:33am

I was not referring to you with these comments and have made that abundantly clear TWICE! I was referring to the individual who makes himself black out as his main abortive by blocking the blood supply to the brain by closing the carotid artery with his fingers. This is insane and sooner or later he WILL either kill himself or become vegetative, incontinent and incapable or looking after himself.

This is neither vituperative, nor directed at you, so don't get upset.
If you think this warning shouldn't have been posted and is 'counterproductive' then I despair. Every warning about something dangerous is worth every word that is written.

Wendy

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 9^th, 2004, 4:23am

on 08/09/04 at 02:33:56, pubgirl wrote:

I do not think you had made anything abundantly clear, until now, but I accept your clarification and agree that making yourself blackout is not rational. Wendy, I do not take umbrage at your disagreement with the idea of carotid pressure. I took umbrage at the tone of your disagreement which I find obtuse and counter productive on these boards. Most of us are sufferers seeking help and support. Your remarks were castigating instead of advisory, your tone is disparaging instead of encouraging, and your content is useless in terms of factual information. Factually, I ended up accepting the point of view you argued, but it had nothing to do with you. One poster was kind enough to offer information that allowed me to search on a term I did not know...that led to the article I posted. Another poster, whose comments and reference material are always calm and on the mark, expressed his genuine concern with the safety of carotid pressure. Those two posters did more for me then your vituperative (yes..I use the term again) remarks. All you did was try to embarass me. Look, you may have tons of info that I and others would benefit from yet delivery is important. For the while, based on the remarks you wrote above, and other posts of yours that I have read, I do not think you can be effective because of the tone you use. I tend to tune hyperbole out. Maybe others want to hear it.
I don't think you have to beatific...just civil. In any case, lets give it a rest and spare the board. We have probably exhausted this topic until I find more info. I do not care if you post again..but I have said all I care to.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by ex_pat_asia on Aug 14^th, 2004, 12:53am

Found this for what it is worth.

AMELIORATIVE FACTORS
Ekbom (1975) found that compression of the superficial temporal artery provided temporary relief for about 40 percent of his patients but just as often worsened the pain; carotid compression reduced the pain half the time, and worsened it in 25 percent of his cases. Vigorous physical exertion at the earliest sign of an attack can, in some patients, be remarkably effective in ameliorating or even aborting an attack (Atkinson, 1977; Ekbom and Lindahl, 1970).

While carotid artery pressure is not so easily dismissed as being "lunatic" or "fringe" as they were by one poster my belief currently is that it offers little in the way of help for most sufferers and may represent some risk to patients especially those in the throws of an attack and not thinking rationally. This would not apply to me..I do not become irrational and do not lose control of my actionsduring cluster attack. In my own case I will continue to use carotid artery pressure at the earliest sign of onset. I will use it as described, with light pressure using my thumb, and enough to impede the flow in the engorged artery. In the past this has prevented or delayed full onset many times and it may be an effective strategy for times I am away from fast acting abortives (trex) or my Oxygen. I do not consider this a recommended strategy for others.

Note in the above the comment about vigorous excercise. This has been discussed in another thread on these boards which I cannot seem to find at the moment. Triangulating the thread mentioned, and this article's comment, with an experience I had once is peaking my interest. On that occasion I was outside in a factory yard. I began to feel the early signs of onset. However, my briefcase was up on the thrid floor of the office building nearby. Since it was not disruptive to do so I ran the 200 yeards or so to the office building and then ran up the stairs, sprinting to get ahead of the head and get some imitrax into me. I was huffing and puffing when I got to the temprary office I was working in. As I sat down and reached for the briefcase I was suddenly aware that the symptoms were gone even though they had been been pretty clear cut before. I didn't think about itagain until reading the other material and hope to have an opportunity soon to try some vigorous excericse at the next onset.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by Judo_Tom on Oct 1^st, 2004, 10:17am

i am very new here (only 30 mins or so) and i am really hoping i can find some help.

anything i read here that has helped someone i am willing to try.

I really mean no disrespect but i had to reply to this thread. I have been involved in judo for years and years and i have been choked out to complete unconsciousness (sp?) 100s and 100s of times. there is no health risks with passing out from chokes if the pressure is relieved after the person blacks out.

im not recommending this but i have to give it a try and see if it helps.. ill start by just massaging as opposed to fully cutting off the blood supply but i just wanted to add that you can not really hurt yourself by massaging or cutting off the blood to the brain so long as the pressure is relieved if you pass out fully.

Title: Re: Carotid Artery Pressure For Temp Relief
Post by crazy_mj on Oct 1^st, 2004, 11:09pm

on 08/08/04 at 06:12:05, synergy2120 wrote:

When marc is having a KIP10 he puts so much pressure on his temple that i do have to force him to stop as it is very dangerous.
Im surprised he hasnt crushed his skull with the amount of pressure he applies sometimes.

Hmm.....I always try to either remove my right eye with my fingernails or I opt to slam my head into a hard surface.
I will have to try this pressure thing....