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        New Message Board Archives >> 2004 Cluster Headache Specific Posts >> Caffeine and Verapamil
        
(Message started by: johnd7 on Jul 18^th, 2004, 9:13pm)

Title: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by johnd7 on Jul 18^th, 2004, 9:13pm

First off let me say hi again. I have not been around here for many years.
I recently started the strangest cycle I have ever had. Fist couple days were at same time and now for last week or so there seems to be no rhyme or reason to the time, length or strength of the HA. I can't decide if I should quit caffeine (coffee and soda) or drink more because for me and others sometimes it seems to help a HA.
My question is regarding Verapamil which I have never taken but am thinking of asking my Dr. for. I started Prednisone yesterday and everything was great, slept through night no HA but then today had a 3 hour, number 10 on the kip scale. In the past Prednisone had worked immediately and squashed the cycles.
Anyhow back to the Verapamil, I am confused how it works on clusters because the information I read said that it "Widens" the blood vessels whereas Caffeine constricts them. Can anyone explain this more? Any side effects with Verapamil?...doesnt appear to be any I read about. How long should I take Verapamil? Thanks for any info.

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by don on Jul 18^th, 2004, 9:53pm

Slight constipation with the verapamil and you should continue taking it for 2-3 weeks after you think your cycle has ended.\

Quote from MedLine Plus:

Quote:

It relaxes your blood vessels

From informed.com

Quote:

Verapamil: Adverse Reactions

About 30% of the subjects treated with verapamil experience constipation in different degrees of severity. The remaining side-effects caused by oral therapy (nausea, hypotensive symptoms, ankle edema, atrioventricular block) are much less common (2 to 5% of the treated individuals). Heart failure rarely develops; even less frequent are gynecomastia, allergic hepatitis, skin rashes. - The intravenous administration, on the other hand, is more hazardous: different arrhythmias and blockades can occur.

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by Bob_Johnson on Jul 18^th, 2004, 10:45pm

The usual drill is to start Verap. at the same time you are on the Pred. Clusters often return as soon as the Pred is stopped whereas Verap gives long term effects to prevent/reduce cluster--but it takes a number of days to become effective, hence why start it now even as the Pred is blocking the attacks.

Why does it work? Not sure this is well understood. For now, accept that this has become drug of choice for prevention.

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by Ronny on Jul 19^th, 2004, 12:23am

Hi,
About the caffeine:

I've read here, somewhere on this board, that some CH-sufferers can benefit from caffeine.

Ronny.

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by johnd7 on Jul 19^th, 2004, 12:28am

on 07/19/04 at 00:23:36, Ronny wrote:

Hi,
About the caffeine:

I've read here, somewhere on this board, that some CH-sufferers can benefit from caffeine.

Ronny.

Yeah I know, sometimes I have in the past. I am curious though why Caffeine and other caffeine like drugs which constrict the blood vessels and Verapmil which relaxes or widens the vessels both appear to work for people. Not that anything with Clusters makes sense but this really has me puzzled.

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by Ueli on Jul 19^th, 2004, 9:41am

on 07/19/04 at 00:28:44, johnd7 wrote:

.... and Verapmil which relaxes or widens the vessels ....

johnd7, please stop muddling the issue. Relax and widen are not interchangeable synomyms!

Verapamil makes the smooth muscles around the vessels to respond slower and less intense to nerve signals.

This is helpful for clusterheads since it dampens (or even suppresses) the positive feedback loop that is responsible for the rapid rise of a cluster attack.

If, and only if, the arteries are normally to tight, causing high blood pressure, the relaxing from Verapamil results in a widening (and consequently in a lower BP).

PFNADs
Ueli [smiley=smokin.gif]

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by ShannonJ on Jul 19^th, 2004, 11:26am

I just started taking verapamil 120mg about a week ago. I think I am just now starting to feel the med. working. I'm not sure if it's just my cycle ending or it's the med but I've gone from 5 a day that last 1-2 hours to only 1 or 2.

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by Prense on Jul 19^th, 2004, 4:36pm

on 07/19/04 at 11:26:44, ShannonJ wrote:

I would be very surprised if 1 week of verap @ 120mg would yield any noticable result. However, it's great that your attacks are less frequent!

Chris

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by johnd7 on Jul 19^th, 2004, 6:08pm

on 07/19/04 at 09:41:53, Ueli wrote:

Sorry about that. I was not meaning to muddle the issue. I am not a Dr. so forgive me. I have read on sites about Verapamil and some used the words Widen and Relax interchangeably. Heres what another site says, "It relaxes your blood vessels so your heart does not have to pump as hard." Regardless of the semantics that still seems the opposite of what caffeine does. I was just curious because they seem like two opposite paths to take.

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by John_D on Jul 19^th, 2004, 6:40pm

with a name like that good things are bound to happen to you brother, PFD to ya ;;D

sorry for the OT post, I could not resist, please continue :)

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by Kris_in_SJ on Jul 19^th, 2004, 8:50pm

Hi and Welcome,

I recommend you read the link to the left marked "medical info." It gives a (fairly) simple explanation of the way calcium channel blockers work and why they aid in relief of CH.

As for me, I can only swear by them (Verapamil rules!). However, 120mg isn't very much. I'm episodic and only find relief with 480mg/day. When my cycle is well (at least 2 weeks) over, my doc starts to wean me down and off until the next time around.

Aside from constipation (which I'm sure you know how to deal with) Verapamil has few side effects. Yes - in some people it can cause lower blood pressure. This is only a concern if you have a low blood pressure problem to begin with. In my case, I was borderline hypertensive - it only helped!

Don't be afraid - seek the treatment best for you!

Hugs,

Kris

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by IndianaJohn on Jul 23^rd, 2004, 5:41pm

Ueli is 100% correct. The mechanism seems to be the muscles around the blood vessels going into spasms. Though I haven't figured out how alcohol fits into that picture since alcohol is a vascular dialator.

It usually takes 10 days for my verap to finally kick in. Sometimes Pred works, sometimes not.

Title: Re: Caffeine and Verapamil
Post by Ernie_Moss on Jul 26^th, 2004, 6:05pm

I am on verapamil, lithium and topomax. The verapamil does have side effects, as does most medications. The constipation disipates after you system adjusts. Weight gain is another and decreased libido is another. When coupled with lithium the weight gain and libido problem is exacerbated, however, if it works so be it. I honestly don't know. I have gone as long as 5 months with a CH but now have having 2 a day and still am on the medication. The only relief once an attach occurs is O2 and Imitrex. Good Luck