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Title: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by mudplugga on Feb 5th, 2004, 7:06pm This might be a wild card, but I'm going to try it. I have a slight suspicion that my CH could be connected to psychological Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Disorders and depression. Between the ages of 11 and 15 I was sexually abused by a gang of pedophiles. It was discovered and then covered up at the boarding school I went to. There's no surprise that it screwed me up, and it's taken me 'till now ( 50 yo ) to get it straight in my head. I told nobody until about it 4 or 5years ago and since then I've been in constant therapy. When I was in my early 20's I developed chronic ch, and had on average 2 daily for about an hour a time, and this continued untill about 7 or 8 years back when it became periodic. The link is - at about that time I found a new way to deal with the abuse crap that I was bottling up. It was a dysfunctional way of dealing with it and not one I'd reccomend, but basically I found a way to deal with my problems by 'acting out' ( dysfunctional behaviours ) instead of 'actIng in ( bottling it up ) Perhaps that eased the stress / depression that I was unknowingly living with. ( and my wife and others that know me say that I was that way, with hindsight - but I didn't know any different ) So, when I dealt with it the right way and got therapy, the stress / depression lifted for the right reasons. And about that time the clusters became short and mild. But this year I have a pile of crap way out of my control, family shite, ageing parents, my job's changing drastically and some other stuff. Bingo, it's stress and depression time - and I'm having the worst cluster ever, with the longest and most severe attacks I can remember. In the last 48 hours I've had about 20 hours of ch, and about 6 hours of that has been howling at the moon crazy time ! Strangely Monday nights seem free of ch, but Mondays I see my shrink. The cluster started before Christmas. This might all be coincidence, but another Survivor friend of mine who has ch has checked his diaries, and he reports pretty much the same effect. The depressed and stressed times are the worst for his ch. Does this ring anyones bells ? I'm not linking it to childhood sexual abuse ( CSA ) but to the underlying stress / depression / PTSD and OCD that went unnoticed by me. Thanks Dave |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by t_h_b on Feb 5th, 2004, 7:13pm Yeah, stress and depression exacerbate CH and CH causes stress and depression. It's an awful cycle and when you're in it it's hard to fight the clusters. It really sucks. Somehow you have to find the inner strength to make the effort to get proper treatment and the right combo of meds to break the loop. Good luck--I hope you can get a grip on these things soon. |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Cerberus on Feb 5th, 2004, 8:21pm Oh yeah, I am being treated for all three depression, stress , and CH definately a link betwixt the three, but no one is for certain just exactly what that means....... For me, when the stress is released the CH hits, so far that has been the status quo, the depression was before I knew what CH was so who knows, but, there is definately a connection because I get reaaaaal "one track minded" when in cycle. Basically all I do is worry about CH related daily events: Do I have my meds?, Do I have my O2? When is the next hit coming, etc... There is a link in the archives somewhere about the University of Iowa doing some sort of study on the effects of CH and Anxiety and other stuff in the archives as well regarding this... Anyone? Ramon |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Callico_Kid on Feb 6th, 2004, 12:02am I know ther is linkage here, but I'm not smart or kowledgeable enough to put it together. I know that during times of stress I am basically pain free, but when the stress bleeds off I get nailed. I have suffered from depression, but usually it would follow a cycle rather than precede it. Now that I am chronic I deal with it on a periodic basis, and have times during the day that I deal with it after an attack. Jerry |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by don on Feb 6th, 2004, 10:41am I have found that it is not the stress that triggers but the anger and frustration attached to the stress. I have learned that if I can eliminate the anger and frustration as a reaction to whatever is causing the stress then I have less chance of being hit. Still stressed, but accepting the situation for what it is. I have a good technique for releasing the anger and frustration. I go to Weymouth and fart in Jonny's recliner. AHHHHHH ! |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by mudplugga on Feb 6th, 2004, 11:05am Ramon & Jerry This is interesting, it's one of those things I hadn't really pieced together - but maybe this is to be the way mine are occuring. Quote - For me, when the stress is released the CH hits, I know that during times of stress I am basically pain free, but when the stress bleeds off I get nailed. I had some terrible crap to deal with end of November - early December and was having major panic attacks and depression. Then after the holiday I saw my shrink and felt a whole lot better, really good in fact. Untill the ch came back ! I'll have a look for the Iowa stuff, and thanks for the replies. Dave |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by floridian on Feb 11th, 2004, 12:41pm Quote:
Under stress, we produce alot more cortisol/cortisone. Similar to the prednisone that is sometimes prescribed to help clusters. Remove the stress, remove the cortisol. Inflammation increases. The immune system gears up. Adrenaline contracts blood vessels. Move from stress to slack, and your adrenaline levels decrease. Blood vessels expand. Trigeminal nerve gets pinched. Other stress related chemicals that don't come to mind immediately probably have the same effect. Of course, this is way simplified. Lots of other things going on inside to cause clusters. Is stress a good preventive for clusters? Adrenaline and cortisone have pretty nasty side effects when you have too much for too long. Supressing the immune system with cortisone increases infection and risk of cancer. Adrenaline raises blood pressure and can wear down the heart. Got to be a better way - still searching. |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Jayne on Feb 12th, 2004, 6:09pm My old doc who was a chronic CH, said that he thought most clusterheads had suffered some sort of abuse, some just don't remember it. |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by pubgirl on Feb 12th, 2004, 8:07pm Wonder what the hell he based that theory on? Not knocking you Jayne or the others who have posted here, but I get worried by any suggestion that any element of causation is psychological rather than physical (and I don't mean attack triggers, I mean causation of the condition itself) I worry that this just confirms the minority view that we are all disturbed, drug seeking and damaged. W |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Bob_Johnson on Feb 13th, 2004, 11:01am It's so good to read that you have found your therapy helpful! But the question about the link between cluster and depression is one of those issues which is so hard to sort out. Recent research is suggesting that PTSD, and perhaps other chronic emotional issues, result in enduring changes in brain structure. So, at least in theory, there may be a linkage--but final conclusions are likely some years off. If you want to struggle with one complex paper on this issue go to: www.medscape.com. (Need to register but free.) Go to search box, select "search medscape", then enter, "cluster headache", look for article, "Migraine, cluster...and mood disorders." It's a slog to read but it may give some information of help. (If you have problems, send me an instant message: icon to left of this message.) |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by floridian on Feb 13th, 2004, 11:45am Quote:
Not buying that idea. Abuse is a real problem. It causes emotional problems and affects the body. But I haven't seen any evidence that child abuse is a cause of CH. Someone who testifies that they were abused should be taken seriously, and their allegations should be investigated. But assuming that most CHers have been abused? Show me the evidence. What about most people with migraines? Most people with chronic tension headache? No memories of physical, sexual or emotional abuse. Some hard experiences that I do remember (death of grandmother, sliding down a hill on my face), but who hasn't experienced physical and emotional pain? |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Tiannia on Feb 13th, 2004, 12:51pm From a clinical / psychological stand point. There can not be a link that would say that CH is caused by abuse. In many many years and if reasearch was ever actually done, research MIGHT say that people who suffered some sort of physical trauma might be prone to stress triggered headaches. One can not make a general comment / connection that abuse caused HA or CH. Especially emotional abuse. Now if there was universal physical abuse and or physical trauma that each of us have suffered at some time in our lives, then there might be a connection that there was damage to a nerve and or portion of the brain that might be the connected to how CH start. The medical connection regarding the chemical triggers when under stress is much more plausable and researchable. Yes there is reasearch that shows that people who are abused can develop mental conditions that can manifest themselves physically. But there is nothing that eludes to CH as a defense mechanism that the manifistations generally develop from. I'll just off my soap box now. Tiannia |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Mark C on Feb 13th, 2004, 9:16pm IMHO...I have been, and continue to be treated for three ailments...Clusterheadaches, insominia and depression. I believe these to be hardware problems and not software problems, ie something physical is wrong in my brain, either chemically or anatomically...the hypothalamus (http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/hypothalamus/index.htm) is the common gland in all of the three. It's my brain..... PF Today, Mark |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Lori on Feb 14th, 2004, 12:15am I'm with Marc..my brain is messed up. I have clusters and I am also Bipolar. The good thing is I just got put on lithium for the bipolar and I'm praying that will keep the clusters away too! |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Sean_C on Feb 14th, 2004, 10:55pm Geez Mud, Glad to hear you have therapy working for you now. You are definately a survivor. I wish you the best. As for me stress can trigger a cycle for me no matter what time of year, and once they start its all of six weeks till their gone. There doesn't seem to be an on/off switch. If they come I'm fukked period. I do my best to stay calm and I always attempt to let shit roll off my back because of it. Give it a try, maybe you'll get lucky. As for depression I fortunately don't suffer the syndrome, however it is in my family, and they do not suffer from CH. If I had a choice I would take CH. Depression is way worse without proper treatment. I'm glad all of you out there who do suffer from it are getting treatment. Its available so you might as well take advantage of it....right. Overall I'm with Mark, its hypothalamus related somehow. PFDAN to all Sean |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Bunky on Feb 17th, 2004, 5:35pm Here's a crazy thought...With a high level of stress and anxiety comes a lot of adrenaline. Could it be that when your stress levels off, your body isn't used to not having that high level of adrenaline and actually goes into withdrawl - in the form of a CH - because it doesn't know any other way to get that adrenaline back? My husband was under a helluva lot of stress over the past 10 years - working 13/14 hour days, caring for his physically and mentally disabled mother, dealing with a horribly greedy sibling on a probate issue, etc. etc. It was after he started making lifestyle changes (working less) his mother's peaceful death, and the end of probate that he started getting the chronic clusters. He had never before experienced a CH. What do you think? [smiley=confused2.gif] |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by BobG on Feb 18th, 2004, 10:32pm on 02/12/04 at 18:09:59, Jayne wrote:
Jayne, your doc should be shot and kicked to the gutter. The "supressed memories" theory is nothing but crap made up by greedy shrinks to keep people paying for treatments they don't need. Doc "Were you sexually abused as a child?" Patient "I don't think so. I have no memory of it" Doc "No memory of it? That proves you were abused. You have supressed it. That'll be $350. Please pay on your way out and make 12 more appointments." If someone was abused they would remember it. They may not talk about it or like to think about it but they remember it. IMHO your doc deserves every cluster he gets. He's a sleezy quack. |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by KarynG on Feb 19th, 2004, 1:54pm I believe the same deformed part of my brain that causes my CH probably causes me to be a nut as well, so I attract weird things in my life. So, I'm agreeing w/Marc and others although a lot less eloquently. I've had a lot of major events in my life and I have had CH during times of great stress and depression such as during the death of family member and also during wonderful relaxing vacations and happy moments with my family. If you don't remember being abused, you probably weren't. It isn't easy to forget. Good Luck! |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by don on Feb 22nd, 2004, 12:09pm Quote:
Absolutely, positively not true. The mind has a unique ability to bury memories into the subconscious. Bringing these memories out ussually requires the assistance of a professional. Once they come out a qualified professional should be available to assist you with dealing with the trauma. Are there quacks out there that want to suck up your buck? Yup. Just like with CH though there are also qualified knowledgable Docs who will assist you for the right reasons. |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by mudplugga on Feb 22nd, 2004, 6:05pm I agree with Don completely, it is possible to bury memories. I work with survivors of sex abuse and know of survivors who have recovered memories and then gone on to have their memories confirmed by the abuser confessing. I also know for certain that there is a bit of a cottage industry going where quack therapists are making a fast buck from "recovering" memories where there patently aren't any. It's a minefield that's done no justice to anyone. But that aside, thank's for all the response to my original question. The more I look back and figure out dates the closer the link becomes to the stress / and or depression / that I have had since I was a boy. The ch was chronic until I did 'something' about the way I dealt with my abuse. I relieved the problems the abuse was causing me temporarlily and the ch became periodic with the periods becoming shorted and less serious. The best year I had about 2 years back when I had maybe three mild attacks. Therapy replaced the dysfunctional 'temporary cure' and the ch continued to ease off. Now I have a shedload of new stress and depression, and they're back with a vengence. I'm NOT blaming the abuse at all, just figuring out if there is a link to the effects, such as stress, depression, PTSD, and OCD. And it would be simplistic to say that 'childhood trauma ( of whatever nature ) could be considered a cause of ch OK, what I've listed there is psychological, and the pain is physical, that we can all attest to !, but the psych' does affect the chemistry. Also Lopeframine, which I was prescribed for depression is also used for CH with varying success, but none for me unfortunately. Dave Bob thanks for the Medscape link, that's one I'll be using again. |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by pubgirl on Feb 22nd, 2004, 8:32pm Lopeframine is used for CH? By whom? Never seen anyone mentioning it. Never even heard of it Wendy |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by mudplugga on Feb 26th, 2004, 5:35pm Here's the info on Lofepramine - ***************************** LOFEPRAMINE Lofepramine is also known as Gamanil. It comes as a tablet or liquid. Lofepramine is pronounced low-fep-pra-mean. What is Lofepramine for ? Lofepramine can help to treat low mood and loss of interest in everyday things. If you have problems in sleeping it could help improve this. Lofepramine is also used as painkiller for some nerve pains, like Trigeminal Neuralgia or after you have had Shingles. *************************** It's an alternative to Prozac, which disagreed with me, but then this stuff did as well so I've kicked it into touch and am dealing with the depression through therapy. The reason my doc tried this is that it's used for Trigeminal Neuralgia - and he thought that the short stabbing pains that have started to accompany my CH 'might be something to do with TN ?' - I was willing to try dog turd by this point ! Anyway I've upped the Verapamil to 480mg and the CH appears to have died off - or the period has come to a natural end ? I live in hope, Dave |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by pubgirl on Feb 26th, 2004, 6:01pm Hi Dave (which Dave are you btw?) I was curious, so I just checked the BNF and although Lofepramine is recommended for some forms of neuralgia, it specifically states that other treatments should be used for TN. Still don't see its relevance for CH but hope it works for you. W Hope the PF continues :D |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by renny on Feb 26th, 2004, 11:31pm well I'm just gonna put it out there...I am knew to this brd and this particular thread has hit home...and that's all I'm gonna say...there is possible link..those of you that don't know...GOOD...the rest, we know what's up...You guys have been an ABSOLUTE GODSEND to me...and with that, I will bow out......thank you all for being so real..........Karen |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by denisebyrd on Feb 27th, 2004, 6:02pm HI, My Doc just added Lexapro to my list of meds, an SSRI to treat anxiety/depression. I haven't really hear much about it and I was wondering if anyone else out there has tried it . Yeah iam depressed and anxious, whether from years of the f------ ha's or not who's to say! Just looking for some input Thanks Denise |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by genss on Mar 8th, 2004, 11:15am I am new to this board as well. When I was about 16 I went through a year long depression. ( My sisters and I were abused and neglected.) I was able to come out of it OK and I have never been depressed since. But my headaches came on a few years later. I would not be surprized if there were a connection. Reading this message board I see that there are a lot of possible connections. |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by miapet on Mar 19th, 2004, 10:34am yes to the stress connection . . . in any little sign of stress and WHAM . . .and if in cycle and anything happens DOUBLE WHAM .. . i'm hard pressed on the depression. . . .does it bring ch on . .or does ch bring it on . . .i feel as if i'm asking the question . .which came first . . .the chicken or the egg? anyway . . .*positive energy and light* |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by HypnoticFreddy on Mar 19th, 2004, 9:10pm As a funny on a serious issue. SSRIS like Paxil, Zoloft and Prozac....well.....give you.....unfortunate sexual side-effects (at least Zoloft did). My winkie constantly pointed down and did not have any desire to point up. I have had some serious totally non-related depressive episodes and I really am Bipolar II with anxiety. I have a excellent out-of-state pyschiatrist who has helped me immensly. We have phone sessions every few weeks. I take medication for "mood stabilization" These include Lamictal and Wellbutrin. Seroquel for sleep. In 2002, I was on Zoloft at the time, and I got hit for a 3-4 month cycle. I had been tking Verapamil ever since I was diagnosed in 1999. I guess the CHs just broke through. I am learning that people usually take it while in a cycle and stop when not in it. Perhaps, Getting back on Verapamil will help. By the way, my pyschiatrist swears by fish oil. Clinical studies have shown it is a good mood stabilizer. Plus it is good for cardiovascular health. So I take that too (some other vitamins as well). I can't say SSRIs had anything to do with the cycle. I soon got off the SSRIs. Oxygen, Topamax and the eluding Sansert were prescribed. No relief in a preventative manner with any of the drugs. I really think I just had to wait it out. After 4 months the CHs abated and I did not have one until about a month ago. Interesting because it has only been 1.5 years since last cycle. I had a 3-week episode in 1997, that went undiagnosed. Usually it has been 2-3 years between episodes. I am scared that the remission time has shrunk. Thank you people for reading and giving advice. I am relying so heavily on the experience of people who post here. Thank the Sun for this and the OUCH websites. 2 CHs per day at night is somewhat manageable, meaning it isn't interfering with work. What a curse. -Freddy |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by Renee on Mar 19th, 2004, 10:15pm Quote:
Walk in the shoes of an Lexapro is the new version, per se, of Celexa and is "supposedly" the cleanest SSRI on the market as far as side effects are concerned. Which came first? My depression and CH came within just a couple of months of each other and that was 22 years ago. The CH came first but only episodic at that time and then disappeared for 12 years but when it decided to reappear it was chronic and I'm still battling, the CH that is. The depression lingers but is well treated with meds. If only I could find the correct meds for chronic CH! |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by UN_SOLVED on Mar 19th, 2004, 11:38pm on 02/12/04 at 18:09:59, Jayne wrote:
Sorry...I think that's a bunch of BS though. I had a great time growing up...til my 19th birthday and my first cluster attack ! Great parents and friends. Nobody picked on me (maybe cause I have 2 BIG brothers)... it was usually me picking on them ! lol Sounds like that doc had his own issues ! (maybe I picked on him !) Unsolved |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by FZfan on Mar 20th, 2004, 12:43am on 02/27/04 at 18:02:49, denisebyrd wrote:
Denise, my doc put me on Lexpro when I went to see him at the start of my current cycle four weeks ago. I told him I had pretty much decided to just fight off the beast with nothing but 02 this time around. We talked about that for awhile. He thought what I wanted to do made sense since my cycles usually only last about 4 weeks and most prevents I've tried haven't worked. He asked if I would consider trying Lexpro as a preventative. He said it was an anti-depressant, but he would like to see if it would work as a preventative for clusters. Similar to some prevents, Lexpro is supposed to make more seratonin available in the brain. I don't mind experimenting. So I tried it. Took it faithfully for 3 and 1/2 weeks. As far as I can tell it might as well be a sugar pill. I felt nothing and it didn't do a damn thing for stopping the beast. Quit taking them. I didn't notice any side effects, or anything at all for that matter. But then, that probably doesn't mean anything because it's an anti-depressant and I'm not depressed. Never have been. Anyway, that's been my experience with Lexpro. Oh, I'd like to add that, when I say no side effects, I am including the uh, ahem, amorous ones also. ;) |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by sandie99 on Mar 22nd, 2004, 4:42am All I know is that stress increases the chances that I'll have a CH attack. So does crying... I'll always get a CH after I have had a proper cry. PFdays, sandie99 |
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Title: Re: Trauma / stress / depression and ch ? Post by kindness2others on Mar 27th, 2004, 3:49am Hi all, I am intrigued that this was mentioned, because I believe there is a definite comorbidity with CH and many mood disorders. Everyone is different and everyone has had different experiences in life, so there are far too many possiblities to consider. I've considered quite a few and here's what I have learned. What I do know, from research is that there are many people in the medical profession (doctors, psychiatrists, therapists etc..) that feel there is a strong link between CH's and mood disorders. Many mood disorders take root in childhood, when the brain is still developing and routing neural pathways. A lot of research suggests that the constant adrenaline surges a child experiences through physical or emotional abuse can contribute to negative physical manifestations, such as migraines or cluster headaches. (Kandel and Sudderth, Migraine:What Works, 2000) The long term effects of any type of stress can produce different kinds of neurological change with different consequences. (Heit et al., Neurobiological effects of early trauma. [/i]The Harvard Mental Health Letter[i], 1999)This can cause the brain's wiring to become messed up during development and decrease or increase the number of synapses (these are the connections between nerve cells). In other words, mood disorders could be the result of this messed up wiring. Many physicians and psychiatrists are beginning to notice that this messed up wiring can also cause some nasty physical stuff, like CH's (check out the article on Medscape on Migraine, Cluster, and Mood Disorders). I am citing just a few studies and articles I have come across, but there are hundreds out there! As for how this connects with my own personal experience is that after my last cluster cycle, I became determined to discover the root of the pain and at least reduce the severity of pain so that I would never again wish to die. I realized that I not only had to look at my physiology, but also my psychological experiences and my genetics. Genetics are definitely not in my favor in terms of mood disorders and clusterheadaches (CH on my Dad's side and major psychological problems on Mom's side) but I find hope in the articles that I've read about how amazing the human body is in healing itself. The good thing is that neural pathways can be rerouted, mood disorders can be treated, and CH's can be treated too. I don't know if any of these will ever be cured, however, and I already know that finding the right treatment is a continual work in progress. The best thing we can do for ourselves is educate ourselves and learn about ourselves, both physically and mentally, and what treatments and therapies help us. Some people feel meds are the only way to go. Others feel it's more of "a mind thing" (and if you've suffered from CH's, you KNOW that it doesn't seem that way!). Some people try yoga and love the mind and body connections that it encourages. Others prefer to stick to therapy. Many people feel that meds in combination with therapy and moderate exercise is best. I find all these beneficial, personally, but I can't tell you what's best for you. Only you can discover that! I am grateful for all of you who have posted because you have all helped me on my difficult journey. It's good to know that there are other people out there that are willing to share information and support each other. Take care, Kindness2others |
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